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[ExGDBd] Re: Can Teen Bullying cause SSA (same sex attractions)?

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  • ctickle777
    Hi Tom, This is really insightful information. Although Sean and I were good friends, he did have a best friend, who was female and valedictorian of our class.
    Message 1 of 8 , May 13 11:53 PM
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      Hi Tom,

      This is really insightful information. Although Sean and I were good
      friends, he did have a best friend, who was female and valedictorian
      of our class. He had a fairly good male friend but he did primarily
      hang around a group of girls who were considered the most studious in
      the class.

      His best female friend, who was quite masculine in appearance herself,
      actually had very strong romantic feelings toward Sean but never acted
      on them. Sean, on the other hand, seemed to be interested in girls for
      the most part, although he did not have a "girlfriend." Sean and I
      seemed to have some type of ongoing "attraction" toward one another
      but neither of us acted on it until college.

      Sean was also intrigued by pornography. I recall one day during our
      junior year, in Physics class, <grin b/c that was so incredibly long
      ago> when he called me over to his seat and began asking me if I had
      "heard" about x,y,z sexual positions. Here I am, little miss
      sheltered, thinking he had totally lost his mind! It was a shocking
      moment for me b/c I had no clue Sean was interested in that sort of
      thing. I just responded with a giggle and said, "Yuck Sean, that is
      just really gross! I can't believe you're trying to show me this!!" In
      hindsight, I now remember him referring to a "threesome" on more than
      one occasion. I thought he was just being silly and chauvinistic, but
      I think he definitely had some sort of addiction to it b/c he
      mentioned it frequently.

      I think what you have described in your first paragraph really
      describes Sean to a tee. I think I told you and a couple of others a
      long time ago, that Sean came onto me very strong in college. We
      remained friends for a long time and my attraction toward him had
      totally dwindled by that point in time; one night after I had a
      cookout at my place, I was in the middle of a break-up with a
      boyfriend and here came Sean giving me a foot massage, etc. It was
      really weird. He tried to kiss me and I rejected him that night -
      telling him I just wasn't willing to ruin our friendship when in
      reality I just wasn't interested at that point in time in pursuing a
      deeper relationship. Then, shortly after my husband and I got married
      we all got together one night and Sean broke down on my husband. He
      told him he wished he were him and that he had wanted to be with me
      his entire life, etc. etc.. I was devastated when my husband told me
      what had transpired b/c Sean was in tears and really intoxicated and
      talking about killing himself. I couldn't believe he had said all of
      this to my husband. I felt just so sick inside. Shortly thereafter,
      Sean dropped out of sight and didn't want to talk to me at all - even
      though I really wanted to explain some things and try to mend our
      friendship. So, you can imagine my surprise, shock, and awe when Sean
      came out to a handful of his friends. My husband didn't believe it.

      This sounds really odd as well, but I can't even begin to imagine how
      a parent feels when she/he learns his child has SSA. I'm going to wear
      my heart on my sleeve here for a moment - It's difficult to admit, but
      after I found out Sean had SSA I went into some kind of mourning
      state. I cried and prayed, cried, cried, and prayed some more, for two
      straight weeks. The array of emotions I experienced when I found out
      Sean was "gay" just about consumed me. I was a literal emotional mess.
      I don't know why exactly - I was in a state of shock, grief, sadness,
      and confusion. I suppose in some weird way I still had some sort of
      feelings toward Sean and this love that I had once had for him was
      just crushed instantaneously. I don't know why I reacted this way to
      Sean's news but it was totally devastating to me. Perhaps my feelings
      of guilt amplified my grief, I don't know.

      Of course, at that point in time, I had no idea that Sean's SSA had
      been a long time in the making and that it wasn't because I (and
      others) rejected him. I know that sounds crazy but it did cross my
      mind that I was somehow at fault. I eventually did briefly talk to
      Sean about it and asked him when he began to experience this
      attraction toward men and he admitted that although he had once been
      "in love" with me, he was simultaneously attracted to another one of
      our mutual male friends. It was really, really odd hearing this from
      him but it spawned my interest in a major way. Now, Sean is pretty
      much living the gay lifestyle. I rarely if ever speak to him these
      days but when I do it's really different b/c he never was effiminate
      growing up but now his personality is just so dramatically different
      from what I remember. I still love him nonetheless. I just want to be
      here for him no matter what - and I have encouraged my husband to be
      very kind and accepting toward him. Since we are so far apart
      geographically, it has been difficult maintaining that connection. But
      he knows we love him unconditionally so that is what matters most to
      me now.

      Anyway, this information was fascinating and I'm sure I'll refer back
      to it again in the future. I'll comment on the "shaving" tomorrow.
      I've gotta hit the sack! : )

      Blessings,
      Christa


      --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
      <moreytom@...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes, Christa, I can really relate with Sean about
      > being bullied, but for some reason as much the name
      > calling. It's strange to me this is the case because I
      > do remember being quite effeminite at the age of 12,
      > although by the time I was 15 and became a Christian,
      > I wasn't. I chose other boys my age as my best friends
      > at the age of 12, whereas before this it was mostly
      > spending time with my sisters and their friends. In
      > other words, I'm not excusing the peer abuse, but
      > making the opposite sex your primary support
      > concerning friendships, especially at that age and
      > with a motivation that involves avoiding at all costs
      > attempting to make friends with same sex peers due to
      > the possibility of experiencing rejection from them,
      > just sets one up even more severely for the very thing
      > that they are trying to avoid, yet, as I said, even
      > far worse then what one had initially feared!
      >
      > Isn't this the case for so much in life that we fear
      > (i.e., obsessively preaching against sexual
      > immorality, drinking and drugs and our children grow
      > up to become sexually rebellious and addicts?) Given
      > this very real principle of life, I believe any
      > enablement of these fears via disempowerment of the
      > victim (such as what the GLSEN bullying program does
      > with pre-homosexual children and adolescents, by
      > exclusively focusing on punishing the bully), just set
      > them up for more.
      >
      > Although, as in Sean's case, it is surely not the best
      > way to handle name calling and threats, by threatening
      > back and being reactively offensive, I believe that he
      > must've experienced some sense of empowerment by doing
      > so, rather than living like a victim with no
      > responsibility to do something in order to defend his
      > own sense of dignity, let alone masculine
      > self-concept. It is MUCH better than not standing up
      > for yourself when being made fun of and/or threatened.
      > It is why experienced teachers learn that you don't
      > tell a child the next time someone teases them to tell
      > the teacher. This just reinforces the teasing, since
      > the purpose of the teasing is to get a reaction, such
      > as crying to the teacher about it.
      >
      > Here's in the following that was posted earlier from
      > another discussion group is just an example of my life
      > experience regarding how these issues of bullying and
      > gender & psychosexual development are so interrelated
      > for the SSAd:
      >
      > "When I hit puberty at age 11 and a half, I began to
      > show secondary sex characteristics (i.e., hair growth
      > in arm pits and on legs) which I hated. In fact, it
      > disgusted me so much that I remember taking my
      > sister's tweezers and plucking out the hairs on my
      > legs, and her shaver and shaving off my arm pit hair
      > for at least a year or so. I also refused to wear
      > shorts, let alone a bathing suit, during the summer,
      > even into the ocean or a swimming pool.
      >
      > But, it wasn't until I CHOSE TO BELIEVE and accept
      > what both my girlfriend said affirmingly so about my
      > hairy legs, and what a Christian male peer said about
      > his hairy underarms as being attractive, who I
      > emulated, when I got saved at 15, was I able to begin
      > disembarking at the body-image junction of SSA
      > development, and eventually leave this junction
      > altogether approximately around my early twenties,
      > especially after further words and gestures of
      > affirmation I received from others, to which I CHOSE
      > TO BELIEVE, especially by other Christians whom I
      > trusted at my college.
      >
      > I also got teased much of the time when I was 12 for
      > effeminate behavior (making gestures when conversing
      > with male peers on my bowling team that I had imitated
      > from my sisters and their friends). And, yes, I
      > enjoyed lessons in learning how to play the piano,
      > just as my sisters did, but I wouldn't dare admit this
      > to my male classmates. Because I refused to defend
      > myself when I was being teased, and was called out by
      > a few guys my age to fight, I got beat up outside of
      > that bowling alley quite a few times. As a result, I
      > quit my bowling team that year. And I refused to
      > return the following year.
      >
      > It wasn't until three years later that I CHOSE TO
      > BELIEVE what a neighborhood older brother in Christ
      > told me when I related to him who actually called me
      > out and beat me up at the bowling alley, did I
      > actually get these guys from ever trying it again. He
      > told me to get in their face, and not back down, when
      > they begin to threaten me. And, it was even easier
      > than I thought, since by then I was hanging around
      > with Christian male peers, rather than my sisters and
      > their friends, which resulted in waning effeminite
      > gestures, and replaced by more masculine, yet
      > adolescent, ones. I didn't back down when confronted
      > by these same guys after a basketball game between my
      > local public high school team, and their parochial
      > school. They just continued to issue the same old
      > threats, as I stood up to them, meeting them both with
      > a stare that just dared them to take the first move,
      > with others from both sides watching. After seeing
      > that I wasn't going to run or call for help, they saw
      > that their efforts weren't going to pay off any
      > longer, and they chose to back down, but saving face
      > by conditioning their threats around telling me that I
      > better not be alone at their school, when we were the
      > visiting team.
      >
      > So, what I'm trying to say is that these junctions
      > towards SSA development are very real, and quite
      > powerful. However, what REALLY gives them their power
      > is the pre-SSAd youth 1) not having available any
      > others who could be in the place of affirming and
      > empowering their gender identity (i.e., same sex
      > parent and peers), and 2) one's maintenance of
      > perceptions and responses to such events that just
      > enable SSA development at these junctions, rather than
      > choose to believe differently. It is NEVER the
      > namecalling and/or bullying in itself.
      >
      > Unfortunately, it appears to me that the pro-gay
      > anti-bullying movement is placing the emphasis too
      > much on attempting to fix the problem by policing the
      > troublemaker, rather than empowering the victim. If
      > both are not the focus, actually empowering the victim
      > being MORE the focus, as I had experienced, then I'm
      > quite sure that I would have opted for getting help,
      > and try to hide behind policies that actually would
      > just wind up enabling my victim status! I never would
      > have chosen to grow in my masculine gender in this
      > manner then! And, do they actually curtail, let alone
      > stop bullying? Well, the later research results, as
      > sketchy as they are, seem to tell us that they in
      > fact don't.
      >
      > I just wanted to refer you to what I believe to be a
      > much healthier approach than the pro-gay anti-bullying
      > program, which many schools are now beginning to
      > adopt, despite its politically incorrect approach. See
      > therapist Izzy Kalmann's website about this at
      > http://www.bullies2 buddies.com."
      >
      > Blessings,
      >
      > Tom
      >
      > --- ctickle777 <ctickle777@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I have always believed that bullying does in fact
      > > play a role in one's
      > > "perceived" identity. Since most bullying begins
      > > around the formative
      > > adolescent years, when pre-teens and teens are
      > > beginning to form their
      > > views about themselves, it is no surprise that so
      > > many of those teens
      > > begin to internalize others' words and views. My
      > > friend Sean was
      > > called a handful of names in high school - but more
      > > so in college. On
      > > one occasion when we were all hanging out, I
      > > specifically us being in
      > > a bar (we were a rather large coed group in a
      > > typical college bar) a
      > > guy bumped into Sean and then yelled, "Move, you
      > > stupid fa****!" Sean
      > > nearly killed the guy (who was twice his size) and
      > > angrily responded,
      > > "I'm not a fag and I'll prove it!" It was little
      > > stuff like this that
      > > really surprised me about him - his response to this
      > > really didn't
      > > seem appropriate.
      > >
      > > Anyway, another mutual friend of both mine and
      > > Sean's told me the
      > > exact same thing happened on an entirely different
      > > occasion. I do
      > > think it had an impact on Sean's thinking - or
      > > perhaps, he questioned
      > > his own identity at that point. I can just imagine
      > > his internal
      > > dialogue. I figure he was likely thinking, "Everyone
      > > seems to think
      > > I'm a fag, and I have these feelings, maybe I'm in
      > > denial...maybe it's
      > > obvious..."
      > >
      > > I remember being told I was "ugly" in middle school
      > > and then going
      > > home and looking in the mirror, wondering if I truly
      > > was ugly. Or, it
      > > could be the other way around - when a person is
      > > accepted based upon
      > > the perceptions of others. If the gay community
      > > "accepts" those the
      > > rest of society rejects - it's no wonder they begin
      > > to identify with
      > > those who seem to deem them valuable. It's a sad
      > > shame that today's
      > > youth are so cruel to one another.
      > >
      > > Great comments, Laura.
      > >
      > > Christa
      > >
      > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Laura"
      > > <exgaydates@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Many christian aactivist groups oppose bullying
      > > policies seeing
      > > > bullying as "boys being boys".But could teasing in
      > > many cases by
      > > > straight boys (no doubt some from Christian
      > > families) against boys
      > > > who feel are weak, girly and artistic.Can these
      > > powerful words
      > > > like "faggot", "dyke" lead to a girl or a boy to
      > > have same sex
      > > > attractions.
      > > >
      > > > I recall reading a testimony of a person
      > > struggling with ssa who said
      > > > he recalled when he was young being harrased by an
      > > older and
      > > > attractive boy in his school, he later said
      > > instead of hating this
      > > > boy he developed attractions for him.
      > > >
      > > > The boy sexualizes this harassment and begins to
      > > believe the hurtful
      > > > words directed at him. The girl may reject men the
      > > men who tease her
      > > > to such a degree that this hate turns into an
      > > identity. If there is a
      > > > connection to bullying and same sex attraction
      > > should we take a
      > > > differnce stance on policies relating to bullying.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • p_csilen
      Can bullying turn somebody gay? I say no. And I say this from personal experience. Conterary to many fundementalist Christian beliefs, people don t become gay
      Message 2 of 8 , May 17 5:43 PM
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        Can bullying turn somebody gay? I say no. And I say this from personal
        experience. Conterary to many fundementalist Christian beliefs, people
        don't become gay or lesbian because they've run out of eniquetous sins
        to commit or to deliberately rebel agains God. The personality traits
        that send a person off in that direction manifest themselves at a very
        early. If you can, ask your parents, if you haven't already done so,
        "How old was I when you first suspected that I would grow up to be gay?"

        They will probably tell you that they pegged you sometime between the
        age of four and six. Hence, especially boy grow up as kids being
        precieved as weak and voulnerable. And God help us in our middle-school
        years when we were branded as "faggots!" Yes! I was a victim of all of
        that in every way that it could possibly manifest itself. And in later
        years when I came out and became actively gay. I vividly saw the scars
        that this kind of treatment left on everybody in that subculture. In
        fact, The way that gays and lesbians treated each other was even more
        vicious and brutal than we ever got from our strait counterparts. (eg.
        If you can get a copy of it, view a screening of The Killing of Sister
        George.)

        Yes. Where was all the Christian Love of Jesus Christ when we were all
        victimized as children and teens through no fault of our own, and only
        to have this brutality compounded by Church doctrine? We were bullied
        long before we even knew we were gay.
        --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "ctickle777"
        <ctickle777@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Tom,
        >
        > This is really insightful information. Although Sean and I were good
        > friends, he did have a best friend, who was female and valedictorian
        > of our class. He had a fairly good male friend but he did primarily
        > hang around a group of girls who were considered the most studious in
        > the class.
        >
        > His best female friend, who was quite masculine in appearance herself,
        > actually had very strong romantic feelings toward Sean but never acted
        > on them. Sean, on the other hand, seemed to be interested in girls for
        > the most part, although he did not have a "girlfriend." Sean and I
        > seemed to have some type of ongoing "attraction" toward one another
        > but neither of us acted on it until college.
        >
        > Sean was also intrigued by pornography. I recall one day during our
        > junior year, in Physics class, <grin b/c that was so incredibly long
        > ago> when he called me over to his seat and began asking me if I had
        > "heard" about x,y,z sexual positions. Here I am, little miss
        > sheltered, thinking he had totally lost his mind! It was a shocking
        > moment for me b/c I had no clue Sean was interested in that sort of
        > thing. I just responded with a giggle and said, "Yuck Sean, that is
        > just really gross! I can't believe you're trying to show me this!!" In
        > hindsight, I now remember him referring to a "threesome" on more than
        > one occasion. I thought he was just being silly and chauvinistic, but
        > I think he definitely had some sort of addiction to it b/c he
        > mentioned it frequently.
        >
        > I think what you have described in your first paragraph really
        > describes Sean to a tee. I think I told you and a couple of others a
        > long time ago, that Sean came onto me very strong in college. We
        > remained friends for a long time and my attraction toward him had
        > totally dwindled by that point in time; one night after I had a
        > cookout at my place, I was in the middle of a break-up with a
        > boyfriend and here came Sean giving me a foot massage, etc. It was
        > really weird. He tried to kiss me and I rejected him that night -
        > telling him I just wasn't willing to ruin our friendship when in
        > reality I just wasn't interested at that point in time in pursuing a
        > deeper relationship. Then, shortly after my husband and I got married
        > we all got together one night and Sean broke down on my husband. He
        > told him he wished he were him and that he had wanted to be with me
        > his entire life, etc. etc.. I was devastated when my husband told me
        > what had transpired b/c Sean was in tears and really intoxicated and
        > talking about killing himself. I couldn't believe he had said all of
        > this to my husband. I felt just so sick inside. Shortly thereafter,
        > Sean dropped out of sight and didn't want to talk to me at all - even
        > though I really wanted to explain some things and try to mend our
        > friendship. So, you can imagine my surprise, shock, and awe when Sean
        > came out to a handful of his friends. My husband didn't believe it.
        >
        > This sounds really odd as well, but I can't even begin to imagine how
        > a parent feels when she/he learns his child has SSA. I'm going to wear
        > my heart on my sleeve here for a moment - It's difficult to admit, but
        > after I found out Sean had SSA I went into some kind of mourning
        > state. I cried and prayed, cried, cried, and prayed some more, for two
        > straight weeks. The array of emotions I experienced when I found out
        > Sean was "gay" just about consumed me. I was a literal emotional mess.
        > I don't know why exactly - I was in a state of shock, grief, sadness,
        > and confusion. I suppose in some weird way I still had some sort of
        > feelings toward Sean and this love that I had once had for him was
        > just crushed instantaneously. I don't know why I reacted this way to
        > Sean's news but it was totally devastating to me. Perhaps my feelings
        > of guilt amplified my grief, I don't know.
        >
        > Of course, at that point in time, I had no idea that Sean's SSA had
        > been a long time in the making and that it wasn't because I (and
        > others) rejected him. I know that sounds crazy but it did cross my
        > mind that I was somehow at fault. I eventually did briefly talk to
        > Sean about it and asked him when he began to experience this
        > attraction toward men and he admitted that although he had once been
        > "in love" with me, he was simultaneously attracted to another one of
        > our mutual male friends. It was really, really odd hearing this from
        > him but it spawned my interest in a major way. Now, Sean is pretty
        > much living the gay lifestyle. I rarely if ever speak to him these
        > days but when I do it's really different b/c he never was effiminate
        > growing up but now his personality is just so dramatically different
        > from what I remember. I still love him nonetheless. I just want to be
        > here for him no matter what - and I have encouraged my husband to be
        > very kind and accepting toward him. Since we are so far apart
        > geographically, it has been difficult maintaining that connection. But
        > he knows we love him unconditionally so that is what matters most to
        > me now.
        >
        > Anyway, this information was fascinating and I'm sure I'll refer back
        > to it again in the future. I'll comment on the "shaving" tomorrow.
        > I've gotta hit the sack! : )
        >
        > Blessings,
        > Christa
        >
        >
        > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
        > moreytom@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Yes, Christa, I can really relate with Sean about
        > > being bullied, but for some reason as much the name
        > > calling. It's strange to me this is the case because I
        > > do remember being quite effeminite at the age of 12,
        > > although by the time I was 15 and became a Christian,
        > > I wasn't. I chose other boys my age as my best friends
        > > at the age of 12, whereas before this it was mostly
        > > spending time with my sisters and their friends. In
        > > other words, I'm not excusing the peer abuse, but
        > > making the opposite sex your primary support
        > > concerning friendships, especially at that age and
        > > with a motivation that involves avoiding at all costs
        > > attempting to make friends with same sex peers due to
        > > the possibility of experiencing rejection from them,
        > > just sets one up even more severely for the very thing
        > > that they are trying to avoid, yet, as I said, even
        > > far worse then what one had initially feared!
        > >
        > > Isn't this the case for so much in life that we fear
        > > (i.e., obsessively preaching against sexual
        > > immorality, drinking and drugs and our children grow
        > > up to become sexually rebellious and addicts?) Given
        > > this very real principle of life, I believe any
        > > enablement of these fears via disempowerment of the
        > > victim (such as what the GLSEN bullying program does
        > > with pre-homosexual children and adolescents, by
        > > exclusively focusing on punishing the bully), just set
        > > them up for more.
        > >
        > > Although, as in Sean's case, it is surely not the best
        > > way to handle name calling and threats, by threatening
        > > back and being reactively offensive, I believe that he
        > > must've experienced some sense of empowerment by doing
        > > so, rather than living like a victim with no
        > > responsibility to do something in order to defend his
        > > own sense of dignity, let alone masculine
        > > self-concept. It is MUCH better than not standing up
        > > for yourself when being made fun of and/or threatened.
        > > It is why experienced teachers learn that you don't
        > > tell a child the next time someone teases them to tell
        > > the teacher. This just reinforces the teasing, since
        > > the purpose of the teasing is to get a reaction, such
        > > as crying to the teacher about it.
        > >
        > > Here's in the following that was posted earlier from
        > > another discussion group is just an example of my life
        > > experience regarding how these issues of bullying and
        > > gender & psychosexual development are so interrelated
        > > for the SSAd:
        > >
        > > "When I hit puberty at age 11 and a half, I began to
        > > show secondary sex characteristics (i.e., hair growth
        > > in arm pits and on legs) which I hated. In fact, it
        > > disgusted me so much that I remember taking my
        > > sister's tweezers and plucking out the hairs on my
        > > legs, and her shaver and shaving off my arm pit hair
        > > for at least a year or so. I also refused to wear
        > > shorts, let alone a bathing suit, during the summer,
        > > even into the ocean or a swimming pool.
        > >
        > > But, it wasn't until I CHOSE TO BELIEVE and accept
        > > what both my girlfriend said affirmingly so about my
        > > hairy legs, and what a Christian male peer said about
        > > his hairy underarms as being attractive, who I
        > > emulated, when I got saved at 15, was I able to begin
        > > disembarking at the body-image junction of SSA
        > > development, and eventually leave this junction
        > > altogether approximately around my early twenties,
        > > especially after further words and gestures of
        > > affirmation I received from others, to which I CHOSE
        > > TO BELIEVE, especially by other Christians whom I
        > > trusted at my college.
        > >
        > > I also got teased much of the time when I was 12 for
        > > effeminate behavior (making gestures when conversing
        > > with male peers on my bowling team that I had imitated
        > > from my sisters and their friends). And, yes, I
        > > enjoyed lessons in learning how to play the piano,
        > > just as my sisters did, but I wouldn't dare admit this
        > > to my male classmates. Because I refused to defend
        > > myself when I was being teased, and was called out by
        > > a few guys my age to fight, I got beat up outside of
        > > that bowling alley quite a few times. As a result, I
        > > quit my bowling team that year. And I refused to
        > > return the following year.
        > >
        > > It wasn't until three years later that I CHOSE TO
        > > BELIEVE what a neighborhood older brother in Christ
        > > told me when I related to him who actually called me
        > > out and beat me up at the bowling alley, did I
        > > actually get these guys from ever trying it again. He
        > > told me to get in their face, and not back down, when
        > > they begin to threaten me. And, it was even easier
        > > than I thought, since by then I was hanging around
        > > with Christian male peers, rather than my sisters and
        > > their friends, which resulted in waning effeminite
        > > gestures, and replaced by more masculine, yet
        > > adolescent, ones. I didn't back down when confronted
        > > by these same guys after a basketball game between my
        > > local public high school team, and their parochial
        > > school. They just continued to issue the same old
        > > threats, as I stood up to them, meeting them both with
        > > a stare that just dared them to take the first move,
        > > with others from both sides watching. After seeing
        > > that I wasn't going to run or call for help, they saw
        > > that their efforts weren't going to pay off any
        > > longer, and they chose to back down, but saving face
        > > by conditioning their threats around telling me that I
        > > better not be alone at their school, when we were the
        > > visiting team.
        > >
        > > So, what I'm trying to say is that these junctions
        > > towards SSA development are very real, and quite
        > > powerful. However, what REALLY gives them their power
        > > is the pre-SSAd youth 1) not having available any
        > > others who could be in the place of affirming and
        > > empowering their gender identity (i.e., same sex
        > > parent and peers), and 2) one's maintenance of
        > > perceptions and responses to such events that just
        > > enable SSA development at these junctions, rather than
        > > choose to believe differently. It is NEVER the
        > > namecalling and/or bullying in itself.
        > >
        > > Unfortunately, it appears to me that the pro-gay
        > > anti-bullying movement is placing the emphasis too
        > > much on attempting to fix the problem by policing the
        > > troublemaker, rather than empowering the victim. If
        > > both are not the focus, actually empowering the victim
        > > being MORE the focus, as I had experienced, then I'm
        > > quite sure that I would have opted for getting help,
        > > and try to hide behind policies that actually would
        > > just wind up enabling my victim status! I never would
        > > have chosen to grow in my masculine gender in this
        > > manner then! And, do they actually curtail, let alone
        > > stop bullying? Well, the later research results, as
        > > sketchy as they are, seem to tell us that they in
        > > fact don't.
        > >
        > > I just wanted to refer you to what I believe to be a
        > > much healthier approach than the pro-gay anti-bullying
        > > program, which many schools are now beginning to
        > > adopt, despite its politically incorrect approach. See
        > > therapist Izzy Kalmann's website about this at
        > > http://www.bullies2 buddies.com."
        > >
        > > Blessings,
        > >
        > > Tom
        > >
        > > --- ctickle777 ctickle777@ wrote:
        > >
        > > > I have always believed that bullying does in fact
        > > > play a role in one's
        > > > "perceived" identity. Since most bullying begins
        > > > around the formative
        > > > adolescent years, when pre-teens and teens are
        > > > beginning to form their
        > > > views about themselves, it is no surprise that so
        > > > many of those teens
        > > > begin to internalize others' words and views. My
        > > > friend Sean was
        > > > called a handful of names in high school - but more
        > > > so in college. On
        > > > one occasion when we were all hanging out, I
        > > > specifically us being in
        > > > a bar (we were a rather large coed group in a
        > > > typical college bar) a
        > > > guy bumped into Sean and then yelled, "Move, you
        > > > stupid fa****!" Sean
        > > > nearly killed the guy (who was twice his size) and
        > > > angrily responded,
        > > > "I'm not a fag and I'll prove it!" It was little
        > > > stuff like this that
        > > > really surprised me about him - his response to this
        > > > really didn't
        > > > seem appropriate.
        > > >
        > > > Anyway, another mutual friend of both mine and
        > > > Sean's told me the
        > > > exact same thing happened on an entirely different
        > > > occasion. I do
        > > > think it had an impact on Sean's thinking - or
        > > > perhaps, he questioned
        > > > his own identity at that point. I can just imagine
        > > > his internal
        > > > dialogue. I figure he was likely thinking, "Everyone
        > > > seems to think
        > > > I'm a fag, and I have these feelings, maybe I'm in
        > > > denial...maybe it's
        > > > obvious..."
        > > >
        > > > I remember being told I was "ugly" in middle school
        > > > and then going
        > > > home and looking in the mirror, wondering if I truly
        > > > was ugly. Or, it
        > > > could be the other way around - when a person is
        > > > accepted based upon
        > > > the perceptions of others. If the gay community
        > > > "accepts" those the
        > > > rest of society rejects - it's no wonder they begin
        > > > to identify with
        > > > those who seem to deem them valuable. It's a sad
        > > > shame that today's
        > > > youth are so cruel to one another.
        > > >
        > > > Great comments, Laura.
        > > >
        > > > Christa
        > > >
        > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Laura"
        > > > <exgaydates@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Many christian aactivist groups oppose bullying
        > > > policies seeing
        > > > > bullying as "boys being boys".But could teasing in
        > > > many cases by
        > > > > straight boys (no doubt some from Christian
        > > > families) against boys
        > > > > who feel are weak, girly and artistic.Can these
        > > > powerful words
        > > > > like "faggot", "dyke" lead to a girl or a boy to
        > > > have same sex
        > > > > attractions.
        > > > >
        > > > > I recall reading a testimony of a person
        > > > struggling with ssa who said
        > > > > he recalled when he was young being harrased by an
        > > > older and
        > > > > attractive boy in his school, he later said
        > > > instead of hating this
        > > > > boy he developed attractions for him.
        > > > >
        > > > > The boy sexualizes this harassment and begins to
        > > > believe the hurtful
        > > > > words directed at him. The girl may reject men the
        > > > men who tease her
        > > > > to such a degree that this hate turns into an
        > > > identity. If there is a
        > > > > connection to bullying and same sex attraction
        > > > should we take a
        > > > > differnce stance on policies relating to bullying.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        ________________________________________________________________________\
        ____________
        > > Be a better friend, newshound, and
        > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
        > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
        > >
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ctickle777
        Hi. I didn t mean or intend to suggest that bullying is what drove my friend or others, toward same-sex attraction. I do, however think that the name calling
        Message 3 of 8 , May 17 9:06 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi. I didn't mean or intend to suggest that bullying is what drove my
          friend or others, toward same-sex attraction. I do, however think that
          the name calling may have corroborated or validated the feelings and
          attraction that some with SSA already experienced. In other words,
          just based upon my friend's account and his reaction to being labeled
          "gay," it would seem to me that the name calling, though very hurtful
          and degrading, ultimately helped form his self "identity" perhaps to a
          much lesser degree. I'm certainly not suggesting that bullying was the
          root cause - but for my friend at least, it may have been just another
          "confirmation."

          If a person is told something repeatedly, or receives descriptive
          insults consistently, that person is prone to fall prey to
          internalizing those comments. i.e.: if a person is constantly told
          (and ultimately believes) he/she is fat or overweight, that person is
          at risk to believe that which he/she has been told. Such beliefs can
          lead to any number of behaviors, like anorexia for example. That's a
          relatively unrelated example, I know, but I just wanted to try and
          clarify my perspective.

          All in all, I agree completely with everything you have said -those
          who experience SSA are not to be faulted for the atrocities that they
          have experienced - SSA is not something that anyone asks for or wants.
          It is equally true that most Christians simply don't understand those
          who experience same-sex attraction. It's just difficult to grasp (if
          it isn't directly experienced it is hard to explain and comprehend)
          which is why few Christians truly understand the challenges that those
          with SSA face each and every day.

          Blessings,
          Christa

          --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "p_csilen" <p_csilen@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Can bullying turn somebody gay? I say no. And I say this from personal
          > experience. Conterary to many fundementalist Christian beliefs, people
          > don't become gay or lesbian because they've run out of eniquetous sins
          > to commit or to deliberately rebel agains God. The personality traits
          > that send a person off in that direction manifest themselves at a very
          > early. If you can, ask your parents, if you haven't already done so,
          > "How old was I when you first suspected that I would grow up to be gay?"
          >
          > They will probably tell you that they pegged you sometime between the
          > age of four and six. Hence, especially boy grow up as kids being
          > precieved as weak and voulnerable. And God help us in our middle-school
          > years when we were branded as "faggots!" Yes! I was a victim of all of
          > that in every way that it could possibly manifest itself. And in later
          > years when I came out and became actively gay. I vividly saw the scars
          > that this kind of treatment left on everybody in that subculture. In
          > fact, The way that gays and lesbians treated each other was even more
          > vicious and brutal than we ever got from our strait counterparts. (eg.
          > If you can get a copy of it, view a screening of The Killing of Sister
          > George.)
          >
          > Yes. Where was all the Christian Love of Jesus Christ when we were all
          > victimized as children and teens through no fault of our own, and only
          > to have this brutality compounded by Church doctrine? We were bullied
          > long before we even knew we were gay.
          > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "ctickle777"
          > <ctickle777@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Tom,
          > >
          > > This is really insightful information. Although Sean and I were good
          > > friends, he did have a best friend, who was female and valedictorian
          > > of our class. He had a fairly good male friend but he did primarily
          > > hang around a group of girls who were considered the most studious in
          > > the class.
          > >
          > > His best female friend, who was quite masculine in appearance herself,
          > > actually had very strong romantic feelings toward Sean but never acted
          > > on them. Sean, on the other hand, seemed to be interested in girls for
          > > the most part, although he did not have a "girlfriend." Sean and I
          > > seemed to have some type of ongoing "attraction" toward one another
          > > but neither of us acted on it until college.
          > >
          > > Sean was also intrigued by pornography. I recall one day during our
          > > junior year, in Physics class, <grin b/c that was so incredibly long
          > > ago> when he called me over to his seat and began asking me if I had
          > > "heard" about x,y,z sexual positions. Here I am, little miss
          > > sheltered, thinking he had totally lost his mind! It was a shocking
          > > moment for me b/c I had no clue Sean was interested in that sort of
          > > thing. I just responded with a giggle and said, "Yuck Sean, that is
          > > just really gross! I can't believe you're trying to show me this!!" In
          > > hindsight, I now remember him referring to a "threesome" on more than
          > > one occasion. I thought he was just being silly and chauvinistic, but
          > > I think he definitely had some sort of addiction to it b/c he
          > > mentioned it frequently.
          > >
          > > I think what you have described in your first paragraph really
          > > describes Sean to a tee. I think I told you and a couple of others a
          > > long time ago, that Sean came onto me very strong in college. We
          > > remained friends for a long time and my attraction toward him had
          > > totally dwindled by that point in time; one night after I had a
          > > cookout at my place, I was in the middle of a break-up with a
          > > boyfriend and here came Sean giving me a foot massage, etc. It was
          > > really weird. He tried to kiss me and I rejected him that night -
          > > telling him I just wasn't willing to ruin our friendship when in
          > > reality I just wasn't interested at that point in time in pursuing a
          > > deeper relationship. Then, shortly after my husband and I got married
          > > we all got together one night and Sean broke down on my husband. He
          > > told him he wished he were him and that he had wanted to be with me
          > > his entire life, etc. etc.. I was devastated when my husband told me
          > > what had transpired b/c Sean was in tears and really intoxicated and
          > > talking about killing himself. I couldn't believe he had said all of
          > > this to my husband. I felt just so sick inside. Shortly thereafter,
          > > Sean dropped out of sight and didn't want to talk to me at all - even
          > > though I really wanted to explain some things and try to mend our
          > > friendship. So, you can imagine my surprise, shock, and awe when Sean
          > > came out to a handful of his friends. My husband didn't believe it.
          > >
          > > This sounds really odd as well, but I can't even begin to imagine how
          > > a parent feels when she/he learns his child has SSA. I'm going to wear
          > > my heart on my sleeve here for a moment - It's difficult to admit, but
          > > after I found out Sean had SSA I went into some kind of mourning
          > > state. I cried and prayed, cried, cried, and prayed some more, for two
          > > straight weeks. The array of emotions I experienced when I found out
          > > Sean was "gay" just about consumed me. I was a literal emotional mess.
          > > I don't know why exactly - I was in a state of shock, grief, sadness,
          > > and confusion. I suppose in some weird way I still had some sort of
          > > feelings toward Sean and this love that I had once had for him was
          > > just crushed instantaneously. I don't know why I reacted this way to
          > > Sean's news but it was totally devastating to me. Perhaps my feelings
          > > of guilt amplified my grief, I don't know.
          > >
          > > Of course, at that point in time, I had no idea that Sean's SSA had
          > > been a long time in the making and that it wasn't because I (and
          > > others) rejected him. I know that sounds crazy but it did cross my
          > > mind that I was somehow at fault. I eventually did briefly talk to
          > > Sean about it and asked him when he began to experience this
          > > attraction toward men and he admitted that although he had once been
          > > "in love" with me, he was simultaneously attracted to another one of
          > > our mutual male friends. It was really, really odd hearing this from
          > > him but it spawned my interest in a major way. Now, Sean is pretty
          > > much living the gay lifestyle. I rarely if ever speak to him these
          > > days but when I do it's really different b/c he never was effiminate
          > > growing up but now his personality is just so dramatically different
          > > from what I remember. I still love him nonetheless. I just want to be
          > > here for him no matter what - and I have encouraged my husband to be
          > > very kind and accepting toward him. Since we are so far apart
          > > geographically, it has been difficult maintaining that connection. But
          > > he knows we love him unconditionally so that is what matters most to
          > > me now.
          > >
          > > Anyway, this information was fascinating and I'm sure I'll refer back
          > > to it again in the future. I'll comment on the "shaving" tomorrow.
          > > I've gotta hit the sack! : )
          > >
          > > Blessings,
          > > Christa
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
          > > moreytom@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Yes, Christa, I can really relate with Sean about
          > > > being bullied, but for some reason as much the name
          > > > calling. It's strange to me this is the case because I
          > > > do remember being quite effeminite at the age of 12,
          > > > although by the time I was 15 and became a Christian,
          > > > I wasn't. I chose other boys my age as my best friends
          > > > at the age of 12, whereas before this it was mostly
          > > > spending time with my sisters and their friends. In
          > > > other words, I'm not excusing the peer abuse, but
          > > > making the opposite sex your primary support
          > > > concerning friendships, especially at that age and
          > > > with a motivation that involves avoiding at all costs
          > > > attempting to make friends with same sex peers due to
          > > > the possibility of experiencing rejection from them,
          > > > just sets one up even more severely for the very thing
          > > > that they are trying to avoid, yet, as I said, even
          > > > far worse then what one had initially feared!
          > > >
          > > > Isn't this the case for so much in life that we fear
          > > > (i.e., obsessively preaching against sexual
          > > > immorality, drinking and drugs and our children grow
          > > > up to become sexually rebellious and addicts?) Given
          > > > this very real principle of life, I believe any
          > > > enablement of these fears via disempowerment of the
          > > > victim (such as what the GLSEN bullying program does
          > > > with pre-homosexual children and adolescents, by
          > > > exclusively focusing on punishing the bully), just set
          > > > them up for more.
          > > >
          > > > Although, as in Sean's case, it is surely not the best
          > > > way to handle name calling and threats, by threatening
          > > > back and being reactively offensive, I believe that he
          > > > must've experienced some sense of empowerment by doing
          > > > so, rather than living like a victim with no
          > > > responsibility to do something in order to defend his
          > > > own sense of dignity, let alone masculine
          > > > self-concept. It is MUCH better than not standing up
          > > > for yourself when being made fun of and/or threatened.
          > > > It is why experienced teachers learn that you don't
          > > > tell a child the next time someone teases them to tell
          > > > the teacher. This just reinforces the teasing, since
          > > > the purpose of the teasing is to get a reaction, such
          > > > as crying to the teacher about it.
          > > >
          > > > Here's in the following that was posted earlier from
          > > > another discussion group is just an example of my life
          > > > experience regarding how these issues of bullying and
          > > > gender & psychosexual development are so interrelated
          > > > for the SSAd:
          > > >
          > > > "When I hit puberty at age 11 and a half, I began to
          > > > show secondary sex characteristics (i.e., hair growth
          > > > in arm pits and on legs) which I hated. In fact, it
          > > > disgusted me so much that I remember taking my
          > > > sister's tweezers and plucking out the hairs on my
          > > > legs, and her shaver and shaving off my arm pit hair
          > > > for at least a year or so. I also refused to wear
          > > > shorts, let alone a bathing suit, during the summer,
          > > > even into the ocean or a swimming pool.
          > > >
          > > > But, it wasn't until I CHOSE TO BELIEVE and accept
          > > > what both my girlfriend said affirmingly so about my
          > > > hairy legs, and what a Christian male peer said about
          > > > his hairy underarms as being attractive, who I
          > > > emulated, when I got saved at 15, was I able to begin
          > > > disembarking at the body-image junction of SSA
          > > > development, and eventually leave this junction
          > > > altogether approximately around my early twenties,
          > > > especially after further words and gestures of
          > > > affirmation I received from others, to which I CHOSE
          > > > TO BELIEVE, especially by other Christians whom I
          > > > trusted at my college.
          > > >
          > > > I also got teased much of the time when I was 12 for
          > > > effeminate behavior (making gestures when conversing
          > > > with male peers on my bowling team that I had imitated
          > > > from my sisters and their friends). And, yes, I
          > > > enjoyed lessons in learning how to play the piano,
          > > > just as my sisters did, but I wouldn't dare admit this
          > > > to my male classmates. Because I refused to defend
          > > > myself when I was being teased, and was called out by
          > > > a few guys my age to fight, I got beat up outside of
          > > > that bowling alley quite a few times. As a result, I
          > > > quit my bowling team that year. And I refused to
          > > > return the following year.
          > > >
          > > > It wasn't until three years later that I CHOSE TO
          > > > BELIEVE what a neighborhood older brother in Christ
          > > > told me when I related to him who actually called me
          > > > out and beat me up at the bowling alley, did I
          > > > actually get these guys from ever trying it again. He
          > > > told me to get in their face, and not back down, when
          > > > they begin to threaten me. And, it was even easier
          > > > than I thought, since by then I was hanging around
          > > > with Christian male peers, rather than my sisters and
          > > > their friends, which resulted in waning effeminite
          > > > gestures, and replaced by more masculine, yet
          > > > adolescent, ones. I didn't back down when confronted
          > > > by these same guys after a basketball game between my
          > > > local public high school team, and their parochial
          > > > school. They just continued to issue the same old
          > > > threats, as I stood up to them, meeting them both with
          > > > a stare that just dared them to take the first move,
          > > > with others from both sides watching. After seeing
          > > > that I wasn't going to run or call for help, they saw
          > > > that their efforts weren't going to pay off any
          > > > longer, and they chose to back down, but saving face
          > > > by conditioning their threats around telling me that I
          > > > better not be alone at their school, when we were the
          > > > visiting team.
          > > >
          > > > So, what I'm trying to say is that these junctions
          > > > towards SSA development are very real, and quite
          > > > powerful. However, what REALLY gives them their power
          > > > is the pre-SSAd youth 1) not having available any
          > > > others who could be in the place of affirming and
          > > > empowering their gender identity (i.e., same sex
          > > > parent and peers), and 2) one's maintenance of
          > > > perceptions and responses to such events that just
          > > > enable SSA development at these junctions, rather than
          > > > choose to believe differently. It is NEVER the
          > > > namecalling and/or bullying in itself.
          > > >
          > > > Unfortunately, it appears to me that the pro-gay
          > > > anti-bullying movement is placing the emphasis too
          > > > much on attempting to fix the problem by policing the
          > > > troublemaker, rather than empowering the victim. If
          > > > both are not the focus, actually empowering the victim
          > > > being MORE the focus, as I had experienced, then I'm
          > > > quite sure that I would have opted for getting help,
          > > > and try to hide behind policies that actually would
          > > > just wind up enabling my victim status! I never would
          > > > have chosen to grow in my masculine gender in this
          > > > manner then! And, do they actually curtail, let alone
          > > > stop bullying? Well, the later research results, as
          > > > sketchy as they are, seem to tell us that they in
          > > > fact don't.
          > > >
          > > > I just wanted to refer you to what I believe to be a
          > > > much healthier approach than the pro-gay anti-bullying
          > > > program, which many schools are now beginning to
          > > > adopt, despite its politically incorrect approach. See
          > > > therapist Izzy Kalmann's website about this at
          > > > http://www.bullies2 buddies.com."
          > > >
          > > > Blessings,
          > > >
          > > > Tom
          > > >
          > > > --- ctickle777 ctickle777@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > I have always believed that bullying does in fact
          > > > > play a role in one's
          > > > > "perceived" identity. Since most bullying begins
          > > > > around the formative
          > > > > adolescent years, when pre-teens and teens are
          > > > > beginning to form their
          > > > > views about themselves, it is no surprise that so
          > > > > many of those teens
          > > > > begin to internalize others' words and views. My
          > > > > friend Sean was
          > > > > called a handful of names in high school - but more
          > > > > so in college. On
          > > > > one occasion when we were all hanging out, I
          > > > > specifically us being in
          > > > > a bar (we were a rather large coed group in a
          > > > > typical college bar) a
          > > > > guy bumped into Sean and then yelled, "Move, you
          > > > > stupid fa****!" Sean
          > > > > nearly killed the guy (who was twice his size) and
          > > > > angrily responded,
          > > > > "I'm not a fag and I'll prove it!" It was little
          > > > > stuff like this that
          > > > > really surprised me about him - his response to this
          > > > > really didn't
          > > > > seem appropriate.
          > > > >
          > > > > Anyway, another mutual friend of both mine and
          > > > > Sean's told me the
          > > > > exact same thing happened on an entirely different
          > > > > occasion. I do
          > > > > think it had an impact on Sean's thinking - or
          > > > > perhaps, he questioned
          > > > > his own identity at that point. I can just imagine
          > > > > his internal
          > > > > dialogue. I figure he was likely thinking, "Everyone
          > > > > seems to think
          > > > > I'm a fag, and I have these feelings, maybe I'm in
          > > > > denial...maybe it's
          > > > > obvious..."
          > > > >
          > > > > I remember being told I was "ugly" in middle school
          > > > > and then going
          > > > > home and looking in the mirror, wondering if I truly
          > > > > was ugly. Or, it
          > > > > could be the other way around - when a person is
          > > > > accepted based upon
          > > > > the perceptions of others. If the gay community
          > > > > "accepts" those the
          > > > > rest of society rejects - it's no wonder they begin
          > > > > to identify with
          > > > > those who seem to deem them valuable. It's a sad
          > > > > shame that today's
          > > > > youth are so cruel to one another.
          > > > >
          > > > > Great comments, Laura.
          > > > >
          > > > > Christa
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Laura"
          > > > > <exgaydates@>
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Many christian aactivist groups oppose bullying
          > > > > policies seeing
          > > > > > bullying as "boys being boys".But could teasing in
          > > > > many cases by
          > > > > > straight boys (no doubt some from Christian
          > > > > families) against boys
          > > > > > who feel are weak, girly and artistic.Can these
          > > > > powerful words
          > > > > > like "faggot", "dyke" lead to a girl or a boy to
          > > > > have same sex
          > > > > > attractions.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I recall reading a testimony of a person
          > > > > struggling with ssa who said
          > > > > > he recalled when he was young being harrased by an
          > > > > older and
          > > > > > attractive boy in his school, he later said
          > > > > instead of hating this
          > > > > > boy he developed attractions for him.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > The boy sexualizes this harassment and begins to
          > > > > believe the hurtful
          > > > > > words directed at him. The girl may reject men the
          > > > > men who tease her
          > > > > > to such a degree that this hate turns into an
          > > > > identity. If there is a
          > > > > > connection to bullying and same sex attraction
          > > > > should we take a
          > > > > > differnce stance on policies relating to bullying.
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          ________________________________________________________________________\
          > ____________
          > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and
          > > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
          > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Thomas Morey
          Dear p_csilen: I also agree with Christa that the roots of same sex attractions begin earlier than at the late childhood/adolescent time period in question;
          Message 4 of 8 , May 19 4:41 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear p_csilen:

            I also agree with Christa that the roots of same sex
            attractions begin earlier than at the late
            childhood/adolescent time period in question; but even
            earlier than you have suggested that they have their
            manifestation here. Yes, if I was to ask my mother if
            she had her suspicions about me at the age of 5 or 6,
            I also believe that she would've said that she had
            them, but even earlier, say at 3 or 4. (Around 2 the
            father should become a parental figure for both boys
            and girls, since he is the primary parent who teaches
            one their sexual identity, being that this is supposed
            to indistinguishable with one's gender.) It is even
            more interesting to note that not only many more
            mothers felt that way in some fashion about their sons
            or daughters, and were wrong, but also the identified
            themselves (e.g., at 12 years old, 25% of boys feel
            they may be gay, but only between 1% to 4% state that
            they are at age 25!) And, although I agree that this
            is not in any way chosen, at least all the way up
            until one's age of accountability (approximately
            around puberty), I don't believe I was born with it,
            as you apparently do. Yes, I don't remember a time
            period when I didn't feel "different", but that is a
            long way off from concluding constitutionality. And,
            the feelings of being "different" involved gender
            identity and role disparity, not sexual inclination,
            at least for me. This is a major difference. I don't
            know of anyone else who felt sexual (not affectional)
            desires prepubertally (how could they?), unless they
            were sexualized at an early age via abuse. I would
            have had no problem believing, that given my personal
            experience, that it was genetically endowed, but
            science tells us otherwise, given the salient results
            from so many identical twin studies throughout the
            90's and early part of this decade. So, since SSA's is
            not an issue of constitutionality, like race or
            gender, it is rather developmental in nature. So, the
            issue of bullying does indeed become a social
            conditioning factor, not just about relational
            injustice, contingent upon how one responds to it, and
            the level of support from same sex role models they
            have received in getting through such a difficult
            experience as well. To paint it totally as a
            victimizing experience (just as the unscientific view
            that SSAs are constitutional does) and not also as a
            challenge by which one can grow and overcome through
            learning self-empowerment, despite all the injustices
            one may suffer, just exacerbates the formulation of an
            identity around SSAs, let alone the power of the
            inclinations. This is what I mean by one's experience,
            and one's corresponding choices in response, with peer
            bullying being a psychosexual junction, with one or
            more of the roads leading to a further gay identity
            formulation. There are some other roads in fact that
            do not lead to further development of such an
            identity, whether or not one still possesses SSAs.
            Many adolescents in fact grow out of their same sex
            sexual inclinations on to bisexual, predominantly
            heterosexual, and even a full heterosexual potential
            into their adulthood, based in part, along with many
            other factors, on how they fair with this transition,
            yet difficult time period.

            Your thoughts?

            Blessings,

            Tom
            --- ctickle777 <ctickle777@...> wrote:

            > Hi. I didn't mean or intend to suggest that bullying
            > is what drove my
            > friend or others, toward same-sex attraction. I do,
            > however think that
            > the name calling may have corroborated or validated
            > the feelings and
            > attraction that some with SSA already experienced.
            > In other words,
            > just based upon my friend's account and his reaction
            > to being labeled
            > "gay," it would seem to me that the name calling,
            > though very hurtful
            > and degrading, ultimately helped form his self
            > "identity" perhaps to a
            > much lesser degree. I'm certainly not suggesting
            > that bullying was the
            > root cause - but for my friend at least, it may have
            > been just another
            > "confirmation."
            >
            > If a person is told something repeatedly, or
            > receives descriptive
            > insults consistently, that person is prone to fall
            > prey to
            > internalizing those comments. i.e.: if a person is
            > constantly told
            > (and ultimately believes) he/she is fat or
            > overweight, that person is
            > at risk to believe that which he/she has been told.
            > Such beliefs can
            > lead to any number of behaviors, like anorexia for
            > example. That's a
            > relatively unrelated example, I know, but I just
            > wanted to try and
            > clarify my perspective.
            >
            > All in all, I agree completely with everything you
            > have said -those
            > who experience SSA are not to be faulted for the
            > atrocities that they
            > have experienced - SSA is not something that anyone
            > asks for or wants.
            > It is equally true that most Christians simply don't
            > understand those
            > who experience same-sex attraction. It's just
            > difficult to grasp (if
            > it isn't directly experienced it is hard to explain
            > and comprehend)
            > which is why few Christians truly understand the
            > challenges that those
            > with SSA face each and every day.
            >
            > Blessings,
            > Christa
            >
            > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com,
            > "p_csilen" <p_csilen@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Can bullying turn somebody gay? I say no. And I
            > say this from personal
            > > experience. Conterary to many fundementalist
            > Christian beliefs, people
            > > don't become gay or lesbian because they've run
            > out of eniquetous sins
            > > to commit or to deliberately rebel agains God. The
            > personality traits
            > > that send a person off in that direction manifest
            > themselves at a very
            > > early. If you can, ask your parents, if you
            > haven't already done so,
            > > "How old was I when you first suspected that I
            > would grow up to be gay?"
            > >
            > > They will probably tell you that they pegged you
            > sometime between the
            > > age of four and six. Hence, especially boy grow up
            > as kids being
            > > precieved as weak and voulnerable. And God help us
            > in our middle-school
            > > years when we were branded as "faggots!" Yes! I
            > was a victim of all of
            > > that in every way that it could possibly manifest
            > itself. And in later
            > > years when I came out and became actively gay. I
            > vividly saw the scars
            > > that this kind of treatment left on everybody in
            > that subculture. In
            > > fact, The way that gays and lesbians treated each
            > other was even more
            > > vicious and brutal than we ever got from our
            > strait counterparts. (eg.
            > > If you can get a copy of it, view a screening of
            > The Killing of Sister
            > > George.)
            > >
            > > Yes. Where was all the Christian Love of Jesus
            > Christ when we were all
            > > victimized as children and teens through no fault
            > of our own, and only
            > > to have this brutality compounded by Church
            > doctrine? We were bullied
            > > long before we even knew we were gay.
            > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com,
            > "ctickle777"
            > > <ctickle777@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi Tom,
            > > >
            > > > This is really insightful information. Although
            > Sean and I were good
            > > > friends, he did have a best friend, who was
            > female and valedictorian
            > > > of our class. He had a fairly good male friend
            > but he did primarily
            > > > hang around a group of girls who were considered
            > the most studious in
            > > > the class.
            > > >
            > > > His best female friend, who was quite masculine
            > in appearance herself,
            > > > actually had very strong romantic feelings
            > toward Sean but never acted
            > > > on them. Sean, on the other hand, seemed to be
            > interested in girls for
            > > > the most part, although he did not have a
            > "girlfriend." Sean and I
            > > > seemed to have some type of ongoing "attraction"
            > toward one another
            > > > but neither of us acted on it until college.
            > > >
            > > > Sean was also intrigued by pornography. I recall
            > one day during our
            > > > junior year, in Physics class, <grin b/c that
            > was so incredibly long
            > > > ago> when he called me over to his seat and
            > began asking me if I had
            > > > "heard" about x,y,z sexual positions. Here I am,
            > little miss
            > > > sheltered, thinking he had totally lost his
            > mind! It was a shocking
            > > > moment for me b/c I had no clue Sean was
            > interested in that sort of
            > > > thing. I just responded with a giggle and said,
            > "Yuck Sean, that is
            > > > just really gross! I can't believe you're trying
            > to show me this!!" In
            > > > hindsight, I now remember him referring to a
            > "threesome" on more than
            > > > one occasion. I thought he was just being silly
            > and chauvinistic, but
            > > > I think he definitely had some sort of addiction
            > to it b/c he
            > > > mentioned it frequently.
            > > >
            > > > I think what you have described in your first
            > paragraph really
            > > > describes Sean to a tee. I think I told you and
            > a couple of others a
            > > > long time ago, that Sean came onto me very
            > strong in college. We
            > > > remained friends for a long time and my
            > attraction toward him had
            > > > totally dwindled by that point in time; one
            > night after I had a
            > > > cookout at my place, I was in the middle of a
            > break-up with a
            > > > boyfriend and here came Sean giving me a foot
            > massage, etc. It was
            > > > really weird. He tried to kiss me and I rejected
            > him that night -
            > > > telling him I just wasn't willing to ruin our
            > friendship when in
            > > > reality I just wasn't interested at that point
            > in time in pursuing a
            > > > deeper relationship. Then, shortly after my
            > husband and I got married
            > > > we all got together one night and Sean broke
            > down on my husband. He
            > > > told him he wished he were him and that he had
            > wanted to be with me
            > > > his entire life, etc. etc.. I was devastated
            > when my husband told me
            > > > what had transpired b/c Sean was in tears and
            > really intoxicated and
            > > > talking about killing himself. I couldn't
            > believe he had said all of
            > > > this to my husband. I felt just so sick inside.
            > Shortly thereafter,
            > > > Sean dropped out of sight and didn't want to
            > talk to me at all - even
            > > > though I really wanted to explain some things
            > and try to mend our
            > > > friendship. So, you can imagine my surprise,
            > shock, and awe when Sean
            > > > came out to a handful of his friends. My husband
            > didn't believe it.
            > > >
            > > > This sounds really odd as well, but I can't even
            > begin to imagine how
            >
            === message truncated ===
          • Thomas Morey
            Dear p_csilen, Sorry I didn t mention that I m sorry to hear that you have also experienced, but apparently more than I, abuse from peers, and most likely
            Message 5 of 8 , May 19 5:21 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear p_csilen,

              Sorry I didn't mention that I'm sorry to hear that you
              have also experienced, but apparently more than I,
              abuse from peers, and most likely silence, if not
              approbation, from those who are supposed to represent
              Jesus Christ. I'm sure Jesus, if He would've been
              there personally for both of us, He would've told us
              to not fear, because He is with us, and told us how to
              deal with it all, and to look for Him for further
              encouragement and instruction throughout, since He'd
              be there to help. That is what our fathers and other
              male role models should have been doing! I think He
              also would've given His "woe you brood of vipers"
              speech as in Matthew 22 to those who supposively did
              represent Him but did nothing, and possibly even
              called us all the usual epithets behind our backs.

              Of course, this is the same not only for us, but also
              for all the other adolescent social outcasts. Btw, the
              majority of the bullying going on is not with
              gay-identified kids, but rather with these others,
              such as the so-called "nerdy" types. This is no
              consolation, of course, for anyone else who's the
              target of such abuse.

              Concerning the right way to handle such abuse, I
              recommend you viewing the <bulliestobuddies.com>
              website. I believe GLSEN just enables the problem by
              casting us helplessly in the victim role, making us
              out to be a bunch of emotional marshmallows! Sorry, I
              won't oblige them of such an anemic approach.

              Blessings,

              Tom
              --- Thomas Morey <moreytom@...> wrote:

              > Dear p_csilen:
              >
              > I also agree with Christa that the roots of same sex
              > attractions begin earlier than at the late
              > childhood/adolescent time period in question; but
              > even
              > earlier than you have suggested that they have their
              > manifestation here. Yes, if I was to ask my mother
              > if
              > she had her suspicions about me at the age of 5 or
              > 6,
              > I also believe that she would've said that she had
              > them, but even earlier, say at 3 or 4. (Around 2 the
              > father should become a parental figure for both boys
              > and girls, since he is the primary parent who
              > teaches
              > one their sexual identity, being that this is
              > supposed
              > to indistinguishable with one's gender.) It is even
              > more interesting to note that not only many more
              > mothers felt that way in some fashion about their
              > sons
              > or daughters, and were wrong, but also the
              > identified
              > themselves (e.g., at 12 years old, 25% of boys feel
              > they may be gay, but only between 1% to 4% state
              > that
              > they are at age 25!) And, although I agree that this
              > is not in any way chosen, at least all the way up
              > until one's age of accountability (approximately
              > around puberty), I don't believe I was born with it,
              > as you apparently do. Yes, I don't remember a time
              > period when I didn't feel "different", but that is a
              > long way off from concluding constitutionality. And,
              > the feelings of being "different" involved gender
              > identity and role disparity, not sexual inclination,
              > at least for me. This is a major difference. I don't
              > know of anyone else who felt sexual (not
              > affectional)
              > desires prepubertally (how could they?), unless they
              > were sexualized at an early age via abuse. I would
              > have had no problem believing, that given my
              > personal
              > experience, that it was genetically endowed, but
              > science tells us otherwise, given the salient
              > results
              > from so many identical twin studies throughout the
              > 90's and early part of this decade. So, since SSA's
              > is
              > not an issue of constitutionality, like race or
              > gender, it is rather developmental in nature. So,
              > the
              > issue of bullying does indeed become a social
              > conditioning factor, not just about relational
              > injustice, contingent upon how one responds to it,
              > and
              > the level of support from same sex role models they
              > have received in getting through such a difficult
              > experience as well. To paint it totally as a
              > victimizing experience (just as the unscientific
              > view
              > that SSAs are constitutional does) and not also as a
              > challenge by which one can grow and overcome through
              > learning self-empowerment, despite all the
              > injustices
              > one may suffer, just exacerbates the formulation of
              > an
              > identity around SSAs, let alone the power of the
              > inclinations. This is what I mean by one's
              > experience,
              > and one's corresponding choices in response, with
              > peer
              > bullying being a psychosexual junction, with one or
              > more of the roads leading to a further gay identity
              > formulation. There are some other roads in fact that
              > do not lead to further development of such an
              > identity, whether or not one still possesses SSAs.
              > Many adolescents in fact grow out of their same sex
              > sexual inclinations on to bisexual, predominantly
              > heterosexual, and even a full heterosexual potential
              > into their adulthood, based in part, along with many
              > other factors, on how they fair with this
              > transition,
              > yet difficult time period.
              >
              > Your thoughts?
              >
              > Blessings,
              >
              > Tom
              > --- ctickle777 <ctickle777@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Hi. I didn't mean or intend to suggest that
              > bullying
              > > is what drove my
              > > friend or others, toward same-sex attraction. I
              > do,
              > > however think that
              > > the name calling may have corroborated or
              > validated
              > > the feelings and
              > > attraction that some with SSA already experienced.
              > > In other words,
              > > just based upon my friend's account and his
              > reaction
              > > to being labeled
              > > "gay," it would seem to me that the name calling,
              > > though very hurtful
              > > and degrading, ultimately helped form his self
              > > "identity" perhaps to a
              > > much lesser degree. I'm certainly not suggesting
              > > that bullying was the
              > > root cause - but for my friend at least, it may
              > have
              > > been just another
              > > "confirmation."
              > >
              > > If a person is told something repeatedly, or
              > > receives descriptive
              > > insults consistently, that person is prone to fall
              > > prey to
              > > internalizing those comments. i.e.: if a person is
              > > constantly told
              > > (and ultimately believes) he/she is fat or
              > > overweight, that person is
              > > at risk to believe that which he/she has been
              > told.
              > > Such beliefs can
              > > lead to any number of behaviors, like anorexia for
              > > example. That's a
              > > relatively unrelated example, I know, but I just
              > > wanted to try and
              > > clarify my perspective.
              > >
              > > All in all, I agree completely with everything you
              > > have said -those
              > > who experience SSA are not to be faulted for the
              > > atrocities that they
              > > have experienced - SSA is not something that
              > anyone
              > > asks for or wants.
              > > It is equally true that most Christians simply
              > don't
              > > understand those
              > > who experience same-sex attraction. It's just
              > > difficult to grasp (if
              > > it isn't directly experienced it is hard to
              > explain
              > > and comprehend)
              > > which is why few Christians truly understand the
              > > challenges that those
              > > with SSA face each and every day.
              > >
              > > Blessings,
              > > Christa
              > >
              > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com,
              > > "p_csilen" <p_csilen@...>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Can bullying turn somebody gay? I say no. And I
              > > say this from personal
              > > > experience. Conterary to many fundementalist
              > > Christian beliefs, people
              > > > don't become gay or lesbian because they've run
              > > out of eniquetous sins
              > > > to commit or to deliberately rebel agains God.
              > The
              > > personality traits
              > > > that send a person off in that direction
              > manifest
              > > themselves at a very
              > > > early. If you can, ask your parents, if you
              > > haven't already done so,
              > > > "How old was I when you first suspected that I
              > > would grow up to be gay?"
              > > >
              > > > They will probably tell you that they pegged you
              > > sometime between the
              > > > age of four and six. Hence, especially boy grow
              > up
              > > as kids being
              > > > precieved as weak and voulnerable. And God help
              > us
              > > in our middle-school
              > > > years when we were branded as "faggots!" Yes! I
              > > was a victim of all of
              > > > that in every way that it could possibly
              > manifest
              > > itself. And in later
              > > > years when I came out and became actively gay. I
              > > vividly saw the scars
              > > > that this kind of treatment left on everybody in
              > > that subculture. In
              > > > fact, The way that gays and lesbians treated
              > each
              > > other was even more
              > > > vicious and brutal than we ever got from our
              > > strait counterparts. (eg.
              > > > If you can get a copy of it, view a screening of
              >
              === message truncated ===
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