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Re: [ExGDBd] Re: NARTH Opens Up Conference in Texas!

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  • Laura Miers
    I think for those who know this group will tell you this group is primarily spiritual in nature. It is true that on occasion I or another person may mention a
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 31, 2007
      I think for those who know this group will tell you this group is primarily spiritual in nature. It
      is true that on occasion I or another person may mention a news article and then discuss it.
      I am not sure how that makes something entirely political. I know that some people want 100 percent of one or the other I think there should be a balance.

      When you have well financed groups seeking to "out law" our ministries and destroy the characters of people who lead these ministries this is hard to ignore. We must understand that the culture has called us controversial for seeking change and they see it as a threat. I believe this is not only a spiritual movement but a civil rights movement.

      The idea that a therapist can lose his or her license for simply stating that change is possible is deeply political. There are tons of groups that are 100 percent spiritual I emailed you yesterday about the on line group for Homosexual Anonymous. I did not get a res ponce from you when I sent you this information. As far as this group is concerned it has over "700" members and with that many people you are bound to get divers views.

      I do not always agree with everyone but we all try to respect each other. Some people have a political tone some a spiritual tone to there opinion but we respect all there views. Not everyone on this group be lives that change is the goal most be live that holiness is the eventual goal. I also do not know any one who said they were going to kick you off for holding this view. I have been involved with this group for some time and have found the comments to be both considerate and kind.



      chatha6232 <chatha6232@...> wrote:
      Tom,

      I more than encourage people to participate in a nonpoliticized
      discussion. But it is personally immensely discouraging to me to hear
      ONLY one side that says or seems to say that a complete reorientation
      is requisite for "success." I know that there are thousands, like
      myself, who have not experienced change in orientation. I also know
      that others may, without hearing my take - which a more accurate
      take, feel that they are somehow not measuring up or that the
      whole message of hope is wrong and thus give up.

      Kick me off the forum if you wish, but I will continue to assert the
      Truth as I see it as well. I thought about this yesterday while at
      work. Correct me, please, if I'm wrong here, but I see two different
      starting points for our differing views. One is that sex is desirable
      or even required for happy living so we must accomplish complete
      reorientation or near-enough reorientation for required heterosexual
      relations to be enjoyed or tolerated. The other is that sex is
      unnecessary for happy living and so incomplete reorientation is not a
      problem when the focus is put on the soul, where it should be in the
      first place. I have many straight friends who cannot fathom that I am
      not standing eagerly in some line to be (forgive my intensity and
      sarcasm here) slapped on the head with annointing oil
      until "straight". All the ex-exgay furor seems to stem from these to
      different initial views. When they don't see complete reorientation,
      and that being what they are told and retold to both want and expect,
      logically they find fault with the message. But when the Truth is
      present, hope is given, and perhaps some will stay with Jesus for the
      long-haul.

      I don't mean to discourage anyone from participating in the forum; I
      myself am here only at the discretion of others. But I request that
      others not discourage folks like me either with a lopsided view,
      please and thank you.

      --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
      <moreytom@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear chata6232,
      >
      > Your love for the Lord evident and what you are saying
      > is right on target personally. Yep, Matthew 6:33
      > echoes what you are saying about putting first things
      > first, "...seek first the Kingdom of God and His
      > righteousness, and then all these other things will be
      > added to you as well."
      >
      > As for Exodus, the quote you quoted originally came
      > from Exodus leaders, and is used alot by their local
      > affiliated ministries, as well as Focus on the
      > Family's Love Won Out group. As for NARTH, it is not a
      > Christian organization, but certainly of kindred
      > spirit regarding at least the whole issue of unwanted
      > homosexuality. Yes, they emphasize reorientation, but
      > they consider what you are experiencing a part of this
      > process! Yep, they are very forthright with the truth
      > about just what entails successes, not only a change
      > in the direction of sexual inclinations, but also the
      > dimunition of same sex attractions to at least a
      > manageable level, if not almost completely eradicated
      > or nonproblematic. All of these aspects concerning the
      > alteration of one's sexual orientation is significant
      > to NARTH leaders, and is to be considered part and
      > parcel of what truly identifies and defines "change".
      > They are also religious institution-friendly. One
      > doesn't come by this very often. For example, just
      > take a look at the latest Jones and Yarhouse study
      > (2007), who are Christians and members of NARTH, who
      > utilized Exodus participants as their subjects, and
      > you will find what I am saying to be true.
      > Intervarsity Press was the publisher of this
      > incredible work of God. No secular publisher sadly
      > would even consider it! Yes, Exodus and NARTH both
      > have come a long way, and we need to be very grateful
      > for both their presence in this spiritual battle for
      > upholding the truth, even if it comes via
      > non-Christian venues. Therefore, I ask you kindly to
      > refrain from discouraging those in any way who engage
      > here that even appear not to be coming from Christian
      > background or ministry.
      >
      > Thanks for your consideration to my request ahead of
      > time, as I know your heart is definitely in the right
      > place about all this, and most of all our Lord and
      > Savior. And, please do not allow this confrontation to
      > discourage you from blessing us all the more. We
      > desire your participation, and have been already
      > greatly blessed by it.
      >
      > Thanks again ahead of time for your understanding to
      > these concerns.
      >
      > Blessings in abundance from our Most High God,
      >
      > Tom
      > --- chatha6232 <chatha6232@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I know there is a huge emphasis on "change" - but I
      > > am not so
      > > concerned about changing my orientation as I am
      > > about working with
      > > Jesus/Holy Spirit so that my desire to be holy
      > > trumps any desire to
      > > be unholy. Personally, I think that is where we need
      > > to be working.
      > > For many of us, change has not yet happened. And so
      > > many lose their
      > > faith when they are repeatedly told change is their
      > > goal but don't
      > > see it. I read or heard this somewhere: "The
      > > opposite of
      > > homosexuality is NOT heterosexuality. The opposite
      > > of homosexuality
      > > is holiness. Work on being holy and let the change
      > > in orientation
      > > worry about itself." Overcoming temptation by
      > > resistance is just as
      > > laudible as (and probably more so) by eliminating
      > > the temptation or
      > > swapping one temptation for another.
      > >
      > > Frankly, I think that over-emphasis one "change in
      > > orientation"
      > > misses the point. The point of walking with Jesus is
      > > the walk with
      > > Jesus, not the destination. I've made peace with the
      > > fact that change
      > > in orientation has not happened in me. I'm celibate
      > > and I'm free and
      > > victorious because I walk with Jesus. This is my
      > > "thorn-in-the-flesh"
      > > and it keeps me dependent on Jesus. I see everyday
      > > just how faithful
      > > Jesus is. If I covet my neighbor's heterosexuality
      > > instead of
      > > embracing the walk I now have, I think I might be
      > > giving in to
      > > the
      > > "grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side-of-the-fence"
      > > myth. No, I'd
      > > rather remain with my current temptations where I
      > > daily have to let
      > > Jesus look at my heart and He shows me His. That's
      > > the point of being
      > > Christian. Nowhere in the Bible to I read of Jesus
      > > lamenting over the
      > > fact that He's tempted in anyway, or where He's
      > > fixated on
      > > eliminating the existence of a temptation in
      > > Himself. He shows us
      > > that resistance is victory. Furthermore, it's my
      > > flesh, not my soul,
      > > that's gay. And this flesh is going to slough off
      > > one day anyway. Why
      > > waste my time focusing on it when I can focus on my
      > > soul? When we
      > > take this (correct) approach, we build hope in
      > > others and give them
      > > the strength to stay in Christ. Change IS possible,
      > > but the change we
      > > are to focus on is the change in our souls, not in
      > > our flesh. (Exodus
      > > and such have now be reproved for missing the mark.)
      > >
      > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Laura"
      > > <exgaydates@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > NARTH Opens Up Conference in Texas!
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > By JEFFREY WEISS / The Dallas Morning News
      > > >
      > > > Mental health therapists gathered at a conference
      > > in Irving this
      > > > weekend are trying to chart a middle course
      > > between commonly heard
      > > > views about homosexuality.
      > > >
      > > > The National Association for Research and Therapy
      > > of Homosexuality,
      > > > which claims 800 members, holds the official
      > > position that people
      > > > who are gay or lesbian and want to change can be
      > > helped by
      > > > counseling.
      > > >
      > > > Leaders of the group say that nobody is born gay
      > > or lesbian. But
      > > > they also say that nobody chooses a sexual
      > > orientation.
      > > >
      > > > About 50 people showed up for the conference
      > > Friday morning and
      > > > heard speakers who asserted that:
      > > >
      > > > • Innate biological tendencies unrelated to
      > > sexuality combine with
      > > > perceived childhood rejection from the same-sex
      > > parent or peers to
      > > > create a psychological need for same-sex
      > > acceptance and affection.
      > > >
      > > > • Homosexuality is not chosen consciously but is a
      > > way people seek
      > > > to fill the psychological void.
      > > >
      > > > • Counseling works – when it works – only for
      > > people who want it.
      > > >
      > > > "For some people, it [homosexuality] is a
      > > satisfactory adaptation.
      > > > And for others, it is an unsatisfactory
      > > adaptation," said Dr.
      > > Joseph
      > > > Nicolosi, president and co-founder of the group.
      > > >
      > > > Others in the organization suggest that gays and
      > > lesbians generally
      > > > benefit from counseling if they seek it. "Behind
      > > every homosexual
      > > is
      > > > heterosexuality that wants to come out," said Dr.
      > > Benjamin Kaufman,
      > > > another co-founder of the group that formed in
      > > 1992.
      > > >
      > > > Those positions run counter to that of several
      > > major psychological
      > > > associations.
      > > >
      > > > The American Psychological Association says on its
      > > Web site: "The
      > > > most important fact about 'reparative therapy,'
      > > also sometimes
      > > known
      > > > as 'conversion' therapy, is that it is based on an
      > > understanding of
      > > > homosexuality that has been rejected by all the
      > > major health and
      > > > mental health professions. ... [H]omosexuality is
      > > not a mental
      > > > disorder and thus there is no need for a 'cure.' "
      > > >
      > > > But Dr. Nicolosi's group holds that the American
      > > Psychological
      > > > Association position is not supported by science.
      > > >
      > > > Dr. Nicolosi said his organization is not
      > > religious. Of the 16
      > > > scheduled speakers, eight included information
      > > about their
      > > religious
      > > > training or affiliation in their short
      > > biographies.
      > > >
      > > > A group that believes the conference promotes
      > > unproven
      > > psychological
      > > > treatments plans a news conference in protest
      > > today.
      > > >
      > > > "They are advocating for an open avenue to push a
      > > treatment that in
      > > > many cases is going to be harmful to the people
      > > who seek it out,"
      > > > said Chuck Smith, deputy director of Equality
      > > Texas and spokesman
      > > > for the coalition that planned the protest.
      > > >
      > > > Leaders of the conference say they are not seeking
      > > confrontation.
      > > >
      > > > "We are not a group of activists," Dr. Kaufman
      > > said. "We are a
      > > group
      > > > of clinicians."
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN
      > > > -gaytherapy_27met.ART0.North.Edition1.4259d92.html
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________________________
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    • Thomas Morey
      That s all right, chatha6232. I understand the hurt and para normal noia. I say it this way because you and I both definitely have run into some difficulties
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 31, 2007
        That's all right, chatha6232. I understand the hurt
        and para"normal"noia. I say it this way because you
        and I both definitely have run into some difficulties
        with churched folks who mean well, but sadly don't
        have a clue regarding issues around sexuality. And
        just as the ol' adage says, you fear that with which
        you are not familiar. So they are quite defensive out
        of fear. True! So, now gently instruct these weak
        Christians to the truth, even when you are contested
        and maligned, while looking to your own motives, as 2
        Timothy 2:22 says.

        You should've been around when it was much more
        prevalent decades ago. Exodus' biggest "enemy" (we
        really didn't consider any flesh and blood to be this
        though, even though they appeared to see us as such),
        from whom we got a negative reaction, when it first
        began in the 70's and 80's, was most faithful
        Christians, because they just didn't know what to
        think of us. The gay communities just ignored us, if
        not actually were somewhat intrigued because we
        initially for the most part came out from among them,
        not the church! Now that we've been an established
        coalition of ministries for close to 35 years, at the
        hands of alot of past abuse from most evangelicals, we
        are now considered by the overwhelming majority of
        them their referral source! They are our friends, and
        we now rely on them for not only financial, but also
        spiritual support and continued growth in the Lord.

        Of course, this came with much growing pains towards
        spiritual maturity in the leadership; and as we grew,
        more abuse began to come by way of gay activists, such
        as groups like PFLAG. Now, it is almost all from gays,
        and their sympathizers, who mostly just can't
        understand us, because of the spiritual side of all it
        entails. Yes, we still get some of what you are
        experiencing at times. The deep south is a place where
        the fields are white, but surely there are alot of
        sticker bushes amongst these blessed Bible believers.
        So, you've run into a quite a few and have gotten
        grazed with those nasty prickly stickers. No fun, for
        sure. But don't let the hysterical messages of past
        associates tell you that these folks are monsters in
        disguise. This is where the real enemy is getting to
        you, causing you to think that your past associates
        are your friends and the church is your enemy. Don't
        listen to them! You will go into a church setting with
        all these presumptions, then instead of being open to
        find out why the Lord has you there, you will react
        defensively rather than respond confidently, and lose
        whatever trust that might just have been developing.
        This experience can continue to become self-fulfilling
        for the rest of your life if you choose it to be.

        This is exactly what you did with us! Please go back
        now and look what I posted in my replies to you, and
        I'm pretty sure you will see quite a difference in
        what I was saying to what you thought you were
        hearing. For example, I never said nor intended to
        threaten you with being thrown off. That was only the
        "monster" attribution that Satan was getting his
        jollies about with you, after you were listening to
        the hyperbole in your mind from old associates. I knew
        this was occurring, and was just waiting for the time
        for you to begin to trust me and know this. I did
        exactly the same thing when I first was confronted by
        church ignorance, listening to my old friends. Yes,
        they thought they were helping, but they just didn't
        understand these spiritual issues, and how could I
        expect them to?

        So, in conclusion, I know you have alot to share here,
        and we wouldn't want to miss it because you might be
        on the defensive and then leave. That would be a great
        loss, ours and yours. So please continue to share
        confidently, and sensitively!

        Thanks for your sincere and earnest correspondence!

        Blessings,

        Tom
        --- chatha6232 <chatha6232@...> wrote:

        > Well, ok. But it sounded like you were threatening
        > to kick me off the
        > forum if I didn't defer to the "other" opinion.
        > Dude, I'm so tired of
        > fighting Christians while trying to live Christian.
        > I can't do it.
        > Sometimes I think back and remember that nobody ever
        > argued with me
        > when I was going to the bars and stuff. I'm always
        > on the verge of
        > saying, "Jesus, I love You and I want to stay with
        > You, but I hate
        > the church and I won't go back." I have about four
        > very trusted
        > friends who are the ones who keep me going to
        > church.
        >
        > Forgive me for being so defensive, but so much of
        > the time I feel
        > like a wounded animal that's been cornered.
        >
        >
        > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas
        > Morey
        > <moreytom@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear chatha6232,
        > >
        > > I don't think you're understanding what NARTH,
        > Exodus
        > > and I are saying. WE are not the ones who disagree
        > > with you at all. In fact, we support you and your
        > > position 100%! The voices of darkness promoting
        > the
        > > extremes, the world, perfectionism and calumny are
        > > coming from the hysterics of hurting and bitter
        > gays,
        > > gay activism and possibly the spiritual ignorance
        > of
        > > some of those conservatives in the church that you
        > > mentioned.
        > >
        > > WE are none of these! WE are in agreement and
        > support
        > > of you!
        > >
        > > Again, I hope this helps.
        > >
        > > Blessings,
        > >
        > > Tom
        > > --- chatha6232 <chatha6232@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > Tom,
        > > >
        > > > I more than encourage people to participate in a
        > > > nonpoliticized
        > > > discussion. But it is personally immensely
        > > > discouraging to me to hear
        > > > ONLY one side that says or seems to say that a
        > > > complete reorientation
        > > > is requisite for "success." I know that there
        > are
        > > > thousands, like
        > > > myself, who have not experienced change in
        > > > orientation. I also know
        > > > that others may, without hearing my take - which
        > a
        > > > more accurate
        > > > take, feel that they are somehow not measuring
        > up or
        > > > that the
        > > > whole message of hope is wrong and thus give up.
        >
        > > >
        > > > Kick me off the forum if you wish, but I will
        > > > continue to assert the
        > > > Truth as I see it as well. I thought about this
        > > > yesterday while at
        > > > work. Correct me, please, if I'm wrong here, but
        > I
        > > > see two different
        > > > starting points for our differing views. One is
        > that
        > > > sex is desirable
        > > > or even required for happy living so we must
        > > > accomplish complete
        > > > reorientation or near-enough reorientation for
        > > > required heterosexual
        > > > relations to be enjoyed or tolerated. The other
        > is
        > > > that sex is
        > > > unnecessary for happy living and so incomplete
        > > > reorientation is not a
        > > > problem when the focus is put on the soul, where
        > it
        > > > should be in the
        > > > first place. I have many straight friends who
        > cannot
        > > > fathom that I am
        > > > not standing eagerly in some line to be (forgive
        > my
        > > > intensity and
        > > > sarcasm here) slapped on the head with
        > annointing
        > > > oil
        > > > until "straight". All the ex-exgay furor seems
        > to
        > > > stem from these to
        > > > different initial views. When they don't see
        > > > complete reorientation,
        > > > and that being what they are told and retold to
        > both
        > > > want and expect,
        > > > logically they find fault with the message. But
        > when
        > > > the Truth is
        > > > present, hope is given, and perhaps some will
        > stay
        > > > with Jesus for the
        > > > long-haul.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I don't mean to discourage anyone from
        > participating
        > > > in the forum; I
        > > > myself am here only at the discretion of others.
        > But
        > > > I request that
        > > > others not discourage folks like me either with
        > a
        > > > lopsided view,
        > > > please and thank you.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com,
        > Thomas
        > > > Morey
        > > > <moreytom@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Dear chata6232,
        > > > >
        > > > > Your love for the Lord evident and what you
        > are
        > > > saying
        > > > > is right on target personally. Yep, Matthew
        > 6:33
        > > > > echoes what you are saying about putting first
        > > > things
        > > > > first, "...seek first the Kingdom of God and
        > His
        > > > > righteousness, and then all these other things
        > > > will be
        > > > > added to you as well."
        > > > >
        > > > > As for Exodus, the quote you quoted originally
        > > > came
        > > > > from Exodus leaders, and is used alot by their
        > > > local
        > > > > affiliated ministries, as well as Focus on the
        > > > > Family's Love Won Out group. As for NARTH, it
        > is
        > > > not a
        > > > > Christian organization, but certainly of
        > kindred
        > > > > spirit regarding at least the whole issue of
        > > > unwanted
        > > > > homosexuality. Yes, they emphasize
        > reorientation,
        > > > but
        > > > > they consider what you are experiencing a part
        > of
        > > > this
        > > > > process! Yep, they are very forthright with
        > the
        > > > truth
        > > > > about just what entails successes, not only a
        > > > change
        > > > > in the direction of sexual inclinations, but
        > also
        > > > the
        > > > > dimunition of same sex attractions to at least
        > a
        > > > > manageable level, if not almost completely
        > > > eradicated
        > > > > or nonproblematic. All of these aspects
        > concerning
        > > > the
        > > > > alteration of one's sexual orientation is
        > > > significant
        > > > > to NARTH leaders, and is to be considered part
        > and
        > > > > parcel of what truly identifies and defines
        > > > "change".
        > > > > They are also religious institution-friendly.
        > One
        > > > > doesn't come by this very often. For example,
        > just
        > > > > take a look at the latest Jones and Yarhouse
        > study
        >
        === message truncated ===


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      • chatha6232
        Thank you most kindly for your patience. I am going to a new church now. Two of my four most trusted friends go their too. And a few more folks than that know.
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 1, 2007
          Thank you most kindly for your patience.

          I am going to a new church now. Two of my four most trusted friends
          go their too. And a few more folks than that know. So far, they are
          all nothing but the kindest. I've expressed to one friend that I'm so
          afraid this won't last, that I'm either being naive now or else I'm
          going to do something to mess it all up.

          Theologically, I know to say, "The church is not the enemy." I've
          said that. But on a practical level... anyway, I'm sorry for getting
          riled. Yes, I did misunderstand you. I'm sorry. Will you all please
          forgive me?

          Btw, my name is John.






          --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
          <moreytom@...> wrote:
          >
          > That's all right, chatha6232. I understand the hurt
          > and para"normal"noia. I say it this way because you
          > and I both definitely have run into some difficulties
          > with churched folks who mean well, but sadly don't
          > have a clue regarding issues around sexuality. And
          > just as the ol' adage says, you fear that with which
          > you are not familiar. So they are quite defensive out
          > of fear. True! So, now gently instruct these weak
          > Christians to the truth, even when you are contested
          > and maligned, while looking to your own motives, as 2
          > Timothy 2:22 says.
          >
          > You should've been around when it was much more
          > prevalent decades ago. Exodus' biggest "enemy" (we
          > really didn't consider any flesh and blood to be this
          > though, even though they appeared to see us as such),
          > from whom we got a negative reaction, when it first
          > began in the 70's and 80's, was most faithful
          > Christians, because they just didn't know what to
          > think of us. The gay communities just ignored us, if
          > not actually were somewhat intrigued because we
          > initially for the most part came out from among them,
          > not the church! Now that we've been an established
          > coalition of ministries for close to 35 years, at the
          > hands of alot of past abuse from most evangelicals, we
          > are now considered by the overwhelming majority of
          > them their referral source! They are our friends, and
          > we now rely on them for not only financial, but also
          > spiritual support and continued growth in the Lord.
          >
          > Of course, this came with much growing pains towards
          > spiritual maturity in the leadership; and as we grew,
          > more abuse began to come by way of gay activists, such
          > as groups like PFLAG. Now, it is almost all from gays,
          > and their sympathizers, who mostly just can't
          > understand us, because of the spiritual side of all it
          > entails. Yes, we still get some of what you are
          > experiencing at times. The deep south is a place where
          > the fields are white, but surely there are alot of
          > sticker bushes amongst these blessed Bible believers.
          > So, you've run into a quite a few and have gotten
          > grazed with those nasty prickly stickers. No fun, for
          > sure. But don't let the hysterical messages of past
          > associates tell you that these folks are monsters in
          > disguise. This is where the real enemy is getting to
          > you, causing you to think that your past associates
          > are your friends and the church is your enemy. Don't
          > listen to them! You will go into a church setting with
          > all these presumptions, then instead of being open to
          > find out why the Lord has you there, you will react
          > defensively rather than respond confidently, and lose
          > whatever trust that might just have been developing.
          > This experience can continue to become self-fulfilling
          > for the rest of your life if you choose it to be.
          >
          > This is exactly what you did with us! Please go back
          > now and look what I posted in my replies to you, and
          > I'm pretty sure you will see quite a difference in
          > what I was saying to what you thought you were
          > hearing. For example, I never said nor intended to
          > threaten you with being thrown off. That was only the
          > "monster" attribution that Satan was getting his
          > jollies about with you, after you were listening to
          > the hyperbole in your mind from old associates. I knew
          > this was occurring, and was just waiting for the time
          > for you to begin to trust me and know this. I did
          > exactly the same thing when I first was confronted by
          > church ignorance, listening to my old friends. Yes,
          > they thought they were helping, but they just didn't
          > understand these spiritual issues, and how could I
          > expect them to?
          >
          > So, in conclusion, I know you have alot to share here,
          > and we wouldn't want to miss it because you might be
          > on the defensive and then leave. That would be a great
          > loss, ours and yours. So please continue to share
          > confidently, and sensitively!
          >
          > Thanks for your sincere and earnest correspondence!
          >
          > Blessings,
          >
          > Tom
          > --- chatha6232 <chatha6232@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Well, ok. But it sounded like you were threatening
          > > to kick me off the
          > > forum if I didn't defer to the "other" opinion.
          > > Dude, I'm so tired of
          > > fighting Christians while trying to live Christian.
          > > I can't do it.
          > > Sometimes I think back and remember that nobody ever
          > > argued with me
          > > when I was going to the bars and stuff. I'm always
          > > on the verge of
          > > saying, "Jesus, I love You and I want to stay with
          > > You, but I hate
          > > the church and I won't go back." I have about four
          > > very trusted
          > > friends who are the ones who keep me going to
          > > church.
          > >
          > > Forgive me for being so defensive, but so much of
          > > the time I feel
          > > like a wounded animal that's been cornered.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas
          > > Morey
          > > <moreytom@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Dear chatha6232,
          > > >
          > > > I don't think you're understanding what NARTH,
          > > Exodus
          > > > and I are saying. WE are not the ones who disagree
          > > > with you at all. In fact, we support you and your
          > > > position 100%! The voices of darkness promoting
          > > the
          > > > extremes, the world, perfectionism and calumny are
          > > > coming from the hysterics of hurting and bitter
          > > gays,
          > > > gay activism and possibly the spiritual ignorance
          > > of
          > > > some of those conservatives in the church that you
          > > > mentioned.
          > > >
          > > > WE are none of these! WE are in agreement and
          > > support
          > > > of you!
          > > >
          > > > Again, I hope this helps.
          > > >
          > > > Blessings,
          > > >
          > > > Tom
          > > > --- chatha6232 <chatha6232@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Tom,
          > > > >
          > > > > I more than encourage people to participate in a
          > > > > nonpoliticized
          > > > > discussion. But it is personally immensely
          > > > > discouraging to me to hear
          > > > > ONLY one side that says or seems to say that a
          > > > > complete reorientation
          > > > > is requisite for "success." I know that there
          > > are
          > > > > thousands, like
          > > > > myself, who have not experienced change in
          > > > > orientation. I also know
          > > > > that others may, without hearing my take - which
          > > a
          > > > > more accurate
          > > > > take, feel that they are somehow not measuring
          > > up or
          > > > > that the
          > > > > whole message of hope is wrong and thus give up.
          > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Kick me off the forum if you wish, but I will
          > > > > continue to assert the
          > > > > Truth as I see it as well. I thought about this
          > > > > yesterday while at
          > > > > work. Correct me, please, if I'm wrong here, but
          > > I
          > > > > see two different
          > > > > starting points for our differing views. One is
          > > that
          > > > > sex is desirable
          > > > > or even required for happy living so we must
          > > > > accomplish complete
          > > > > reorientation or near-enough reorientation for
          > > > > required heterosexual
          > > > > relations to be enjoyed or tolerated. The other
          > > is
          > > > > that sex is
          > > > > unnecessary for happy living and so incomplete
          > > > > reorientation is not a
          > > > > problem when the focus is put on the soul, where
          > > it
          > > > > should be in the
          > > > > first place. I have many straight friends who
          > > cannot
          > > > > fathom that I am
          > > > > not standing eagerly in some line to be (forgive
          > > my
          > > > > intensity and
          > > > > sarcasm here) slapped on the head with
          > > annointing
          > > > > oil
          > > > > until "straight". All the ex-exgay furor seems
          > > to
          > > > > stem from these to
          > > > > different initial views. When they don't see
          > > > > complete reorientation,
          > > > > and that being what they are told and retold to
          > > both
          > > > > want and expect,
          > > > > logically they find fault with the message. But
          > > when
          > > > > the Truth is
          > > > > present, hope is given, and perhaps some will
          > > stay
          > > > > with Jesus for the
          > > > > long-haul.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > I don't mean to discourage anyone from
          > > participating
          > > > > in the forum; I
          > > > > myself am here only at the discretion of others.
          > > But
          > > > > I request that
          > > > > others not discourage folks like me either with
          > > a
          > > > > lopsided view,
          > > > > please and thank you.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com,
          > > Thomas
          > > > > Morey
          > > > > <moreytom@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Dear chata6232,
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Your love for the Lord evident and what you
          > > are
          > > > > saying
          > > > > > is right on target personally. Yep, Matthew
          > > 6:33
          > > > > > echoes what you are saying about putting first
          > > > > things
          > > > > > first, "...seek first the Kingdom of God and
          > > His
          > > > > > righteousness, and then all these other things
          > > > > will be
          > > > > > added to you as well."
          > > > > >
          > > > > > As for Exodus, the quote you quoted originally
          > > > > came
          > > > > > from Exodus leaders, and is used alot by their
          > > > > local
          > > > > > affiliated ministries, as well as Focus on the
          > > > > > Family's Love Won Out group. As for NARTH, it
          > > is
          > > > > not a
          > > > > > Christian organization, but certainly of
          > > kindred
          > > > > > spirit regarding at least the whole issue of
          > > > > unwanted
          > > > > > homosexuality. Yes, they emphasize
          > > reorientation,
          > > > > but
          > > > > > they consider what you are experiencing a part
          > > of
          > > > > this
          > > > > > process! Yep, they are very forthright with
          > > the
          > > > > truth
          > > > > > about just what entails successes, not only a
          > > > > change
          > > > > > in the direction of sexual inclinations, but
          > > also
          > > > > the
          > > > > > dimunition of same sex attractions to at least
          > > a
          > > > > > manageable level, if not almost completely
          > > > > eradicated
          > > > > > or nonproblematic. All of these aspects
          > > concerning
          > > > > the
          > > > > > alteration of one's sexual orientation is
          > > > > significant
          > > > > > to NARTH leaders, and is to be considered part
          > > and
          > > > > > parcel of what truly identifies and defines
          > > > > "change".
          > > > > > They are also religious institution-friendly.
          > > One
          > > > > > doesn't come by this very often. For example,
          > > just
          > > > > > take a look at the latest Jones and Yarhouse
          > > study
          > >
          > === message truncated ===
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
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          >
        • Thomas Morey
          Yes, indeedy, my wonderful brother! ... === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 1, 2007
            Yes, indeedy, my wonderful brother!
            --- chatha6232 <chatha6232@...> wrote:

            > Thank you most kindly for your patience.
            >
            > I am going to a new church now. Two of my four most
            > trusted friends
            > go their too. And a few more folks than that know.
            > So far, they are
            > all nothing but the kindest. I've expressed to one
            > friend that I'm so
            > afraid this won't last, that I'm either being naive
            > now or else I'm
            > going to do something to mess it all up.
            >
            > Theologically, I know to say, "The church is not the
            > enemy." I've
            > said that. But on a practical level... anyway, I'm
            > sorry for getting
            > riled. Yes, I did misunderstand you. I'm sorry. Will
            > you all please
            > forgive me?
            >
            > Btw, my name is John.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas
            > Morey
            > <moreytom@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > That's all right, chatha6232. I understand the
            > hurt
            > > and para"normal"noia. I say it this way because
            > you
            > > and I both definitely have run into some
            > difficulties
            > > with churched folks who mean well, but sadly don't
            > > have a clue regarding issues around sexuality. And
            > > just as the ol' adage says, you fear that with
            > which
            > > you are not familiar. So they are quite defensive
            > out
            > > of fear. True! So, now gently instruct these weak
            > > Christians to the truth, even when you are
            > contested
            > > and maligned, while looking to your own motives,
            > as 2
            > > Timothy 2:22 says.
            > >
            > > You should've been around when it was much more
            > > prevalent decades ago. Exodus' biggest "enemy" (we
            > > really didn't consider any flesh and blood to be
            > this
            > > though, even though they appeared to see us as
            > such),
            > > from whom we got a negative reaction, when it
            > first
            > > began in the 70's and 80's, was most faithful
            > > Christians, because they just didn't know what to
            > > think of us. The gay communities just ignored us,
            > if
            > > not actually were somewhat intrigued because we
            > > initially for the most part came out from among
            > them,
            > > not the church! Now that we've been an established
            > > coalition of ministries for close to 35 years, at
            > the
            > > hands of alot of past abuse from most
            > evangelicals, we
            > > are now considered by the overwhelming majority of
            > > them their referral source! They are our friends,
            > and
            > > we now rely on them for not only financial, but
            > also
            > > spiritual support and continued growth in the
            > Lord.
            > >
            > > Of course, this came with much growing pains
            > towards
            > > spiritual maturity in the leadership; and as we
            > grew,
            > > more abuse began to come by way of gay activists,
            > such
            > > as groups like PFLAG. Now, it is almost all from
            > gays,
            > > and their sympathizers, who mostly just can't
            > > understand us, because of the spiritual side of
            > all it
            > > entails. Yes, we still get some of what you are
            > > experiencing at times. The deep south is a place
            > where
            > > the fields are white, but surely there are alot of
            > > sticker bushes amongst these blessed Bible
            > believers.
            > > So, you've run into a quite a few and have gotten
            > > grazed with those nasty prickly stickers. No fun,
            > for
            > > sure. But don't let the hysterical messages of
            > past
            > > associates tell you that these folks are monsters
            > in
            > > disguise. This is where the real enemy is getting
            > to
            > > you, causing you to think that your past
            > associates
            > > are your friends and the church is your enemy.
            > Don't
            > > listen to them! You will go into a church setting
            > with
            > > all these presumptions, then instead of being open
            > to
            > > find out why the Lord has you there, you will
            > react
            > > defensively rather than respond confidently, and
            > lose
            > > whatever trust that might just have been
            > developing.
            > > This experience can continue to become
            > self-fulfilling
            > > for the rest of your life if you choose it to be.
            >
            > >
            > > This is exactly what you did with us! Please go
            > back
            > > now and look what I posted in my replies to you,
            > and
            > > I'm pretty sure you will see quite a difference in
            > > what I was saying to what you thought you were
            > > hearing. For example, I never said nor intended to
            > > threaten you with being thrown off. That was only
            > the
            > > "monster" attribution that Satan was getting his
            > > jollies about with you, after you were listening
            > to
            > > the hyperbole in your mind from old associates. I
            > knew
            > > this was occurring, and was just waiting for the
            > time
            > > for you to begin to trust me and know this. I did
            > > exactly the same thing when I first was confronted
            > by
            > > church ignorance, listening to my old friends.
            > Yes,
            > > they thought they were helping, but they just
            > didn't
            > > understand these spiritual issues, and how could I
            > > expect them to?
            > >
            > > So, in conclusion, I know you have alot to share
            > here,
            > > and we wouldn't want to miss it because you might
            > be
            > > on the defensive and then leave. That would be a
            > great
            > > loss, ours and yours. So please continue to share
            > > confidently, and sensitively!
            > >
            > > Thanks for your sincere and earnest
            > correspondence!
            > >
            > > Blessings,
            > >
            > > Tom
            > > --- chatha6232 <chatha6232@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > Well, ok. But it sounded like you were
            > threatening
            > > > to kick me off the
            > > > forum if I didn't defer to the "other" opinion.
            > > > Dude, I'm so tired of
            > > > fighting Christians while trying to live
            > Christian.
            > > > I can't do it.
            > > > Sometimes I think back and remember that nobody
            > ever
            > > > argued with me
            > > > when I was going to the bars and stuff. I'm
            > always
            > > > on the verge of
            > > > saying, "Jesus, I love You and I want to stay
            > with
            > > > You, but I hate
            > > > the church and I won't go back." I have about
            > four
            > > > very trusted
            > > > friends who are the ones who keep me going to
            > > > church.
            > > >
            > > > Forgive me for being so defensive, but so much
            > of
            > > > the time I feel
            > > > like a wounded animal that's been cornered.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com,
            > Thomas
            > > > Morey
            > > > <moreytom@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Dear chatha6232,
            >
            === message truncated ===


            __________________________________________________
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          • Frank R.Schoonover
            Dear Laura I tried the link but I got Page Not Found afterwards. I woudl like to read the full article on the site.Please help.Sincerely Frank R.Schoonover
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 1, 2007
              Dear Laura

              I tried the link but I got "Page Not Found" afterwards.

              I woudl like to read the full article on the site.Please
              help.Sincerely Frank R.Schoonover



              --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, "Laura"
              <exgaydates@...> wrote:
              >
              > NARTH Opens Up Conference in Texas!
              >
              >
              > By JEFFREY WEISS / The Dallas Morning News
              >
              > Mental health therapists gathered at a conference in Irving this
              > weekend are trying to chart a middle course between commonly heard
              > views about homosexuality.
              >
              > The National Association for Research and Therapy of
              Homosexuality,
              > which claims 800 members, holds the official position that people
              > who are gay or lesbian and want to change can be helped by
              > counseling.
              >
              > Leaders of the group say that nobody is born gay or lesbian. But
              > they also say that nobody chooses a sexual orientation.
              >
              > About 50 people showed up for the conference Friday morning and
              > heard speakers who asserted that:
              >
              > • Innate biological tendencies unrelated to sexuality combine with
              > perceived childhood rejection from the same-sex parent or peers to
              > create a psychological need for same-sex acceptance and affection.
              >
              > • Homosexuality is not chosen consciously but is a way people seek
              > to fill the psychological void.
              >
              > • Counseling works – when it works – only for people who want it.
              >
              > "For some people, it [homosexuality] is a satisfactory adaptation.
              > And for others, it is an unsatisfactory adaptation," said Dr.
              Joseph
              > Nicolosi, president and co-founder of the group.
              >
              > Others in the organization suggest that gays and lesbians
              generally
              > benefit from counseling if they seek it. "Behind every homosexual
              is
              > heterosexuality that wants to come out," said Dr. Benjamin
              Kaufman,
              > another co-founder of the group that formed in 1992.
              >
              > Those positions run counter to that of several major psychological
              > associations.
              >
              > The American Psychological Association says on its Web site: "The
              > most important fact about 'reparative therapy,' also sometimes
              known
              > as 'conversion' therapy, is that it is based on an understanding
              of
              > homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and
              > mental health professions. ... [H]omosexuality is not a mental
              > disorder and thus there is no need for a 'cure.' "
              >
              > But Dr. Nicolosi's group holds that the American Psychological
              > Association position is not supported by science.
              >
              > Dr. Nicolosi said his organization is not religious. Of the 16
              > scheduled speakers, eight included information about their
              religious
              > training or affiliation in their short biographies.
              >
              > A group that believes the conference promotes unproven
              psychological
              > treatments plans a news conference in protest today.
              >
              > "They are advocating for an open avenue to push a treatment that
              in
              > many cases is going to be harmful to the people who seek it out,"
              > said Chuck Smith, deputy director of Equality Texas and spokesman
              > for the coalition that planned the protest.
              >
              > Leaders of the conference say they are not seeking confrontation.
              >
              > "We are not a group of activists," Dr. Kaufman said. "We are a
              group
              > of clinicians."
              >
              >
              >
              http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN
              > -gaytherapy_27met.ART0.North.Edition1.4259d92.html
              >
            • chatha6232
              Laura, chill Go back and read some recent posts, ok? I misunderstood something. Have a really good day.
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 2, 2007
                Laura,

                chill

                Go back and read some recent posts, ok? I misunderstood something.

                Have a really good day.
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.