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Re: [ExGDBd] Re: A Question?

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  • Drew VanDyche
    I like to remember that the term sin really means to miss the mark. It keeps it in perspective to think that we reach (shoot the arrow) towards the prize
    Message 1 of 31 , Jan 31, 2005
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      I like to remember that the term "sin" really means to "miss the mark."
      It keeps it in perspective to think that we reach (shoot the arrow) towards the prize of the high calling of Jesus Christ, but that there is now, and ever, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. When we partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and live by it, we place ourselves back under the law instead of remaining in the grace of Christ.

      All things are lawful for me, but all things are not profitable. sigh. One of the few times that I actually like the apostle Paul. :-)

      Thomas Morey <moreytom@...> wrote:

      Super response, Drew!

      Your discussion about how we in the Church have a tendency to judge more harshly sins of the body, such as homosexual behavior than spiritual sins, such as pride, reminds me what it says I believe in 1 Timothy, but I forget what chapter and verse, (and I'm presently away from my Bible) that, "...there are those whose sins go before them, and for others they follow." But the positive thing about having our particular brand of sin more salient, is that we are pressured to deal with it sooner in this life, due to the reactions we get from other church members about our struggles with SSAs, and that gives us an opportunity to trust and depend all the more on our Father's acceptance of us in His love, rather than from others, and to learn how to exonerate these others who just can't and don't understand why they react in such a way, as Jesus said on the cross to His Father about those who condemned Him to a death of crucifixion, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are
      doing."

      Yes, and those in the Church who desire to indulge themselves by using someone with SSAs, after they experience only a semblance of healing, as a poster child of freedom and change, to assuage their own fears of homosexuality, and lack of confidence in the power of the gospel, thereby showing their contempt for that brother or sister and the gospel that does indeed transform in God's good timing, need to be forgiven too. I too was a victim of such an experience back in the middle 80's, and, unfortunately, the majority of the members of the church still can't let go of blaming me for disappointing them, when they were just too glad to make me their proof of transformation,. rather than be more concerned about my spiritual growth. Now, I willingly went along with it all, for the sake of notoriety and acceptance. So, I must take full responsibility, and I have. I see them now as victims of their own ignorance and fears, just as Jesus did his accusers when He died on the cross.

      Well, this digs up some old wounds of the past. Wow!

      Blessings,

      Tom

      Drew VanDyche wrote:

      A big problem with the Church when it comes to ssa is that it "over-promises and under-delivers". Back when Brownsville first began receiving the anointing, my friend Joseph received an intense touch from God. Three days later, he was testifying that God had delivered him from homosexuality. A film crew was there that night, captured the testimony and sent it all over america as concrete proof that change was possible. No one qualified the fact that Joseph had only been "free" for three days. He wasn't Jesus with His three days in the tomb. When Joseph began to doubt and question his reality, and when he began having to walk out the process and unraveling his issues, people got scared, they weren't equipped to handle the hard questions that their "poster boy" was asking. I don't know where he is now, but the last that I knew he was cast aside and back in the "lifestyle." If you choose to use that phrase.

      One of the things that I find frustrating about the Church's condemnation of homosexuality with such vehemence in comparison with another sin such as pride is that they have convinced themselves that acting out sexually is a choice and as such the person with ssa must be more responsible in their endeavor to walk soberly, righteously and godly in this present world. And yet, pride and gossip are more insidious sins that in my opinion are more destructive for they hide in plain sight. They masquerade as ethics, morals or sharing in love. If truly the practicing homosexual is going to hell, then isn't the practicing self-rightous prideful bigot? But no, we Christians shy away from that, for the sin of homosexuality can be clearly seen, can't it? The sin of pride and gossip eats away like a cancer from the inside and hides itself as fundamental legalistic morality. We all fall short of the glory of God. If homosexuality is truly a sin, then all it is is missing the mark and at the most
      then it is a symptom. If your son wants to not be gay, my advice would be that you get down on your hands and knees and pray that God gives you the answers and gifts and abundance of whatever it is that he needs to replace homosexual acting out. That you divest yourself of all judgements of him, love him right where he is at, and convince him that it is not his or your job to change his sexuality. That if it is truly possible, then it will only come by Jesus himself. Comfort him, give him options of true relationship so that he has a choice to do something different instead of sexualizing his emotions and conflicts. Cuddle with him on the couch and quiet the longing in his heart for touch in inappropriate ways. Meet his needs in a healthy God-given, unconditional love sort of way. Get him into therapy with someone who doesn't have an agenda but to see this boy come to wholeness. And give the whole ssa issue to God to deal with in his time.

      Be a tree of life for him to partake of, not the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Don't fear for his future. Remember, ALL things work together for good...God is in control. Thank God that we don't have to be. When we relinquish control, then we are truly free to love.
      In His Care,
      Drew




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alan Levering
      At the bottom of this e-mail: *************** -- In Him who leads us to the Absolute Truth, Alan Levering; Founder, NCXDS Ex-Gay Internet Ministries Web:
      Message 31 of 31 , Feb 4, 2005
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        At the bottom of this e-mail:

        ***************
        -- In Him who leads us to the Absolute Truth,
        Alan Levering; Founder, NCXDS Ex-Gay Internet
        Ministries

        Web: <http://geocities.com/exgaylinks> .....
        ***************


        --- Drew VanDyche <vandyche@...> wrote:

        >
        > Alan:
        > What is the main website address? I couldn't find
        > the link and I wanted to read your testimony.
        > Drew
        >
        > Alan Levering <ncxds2@...> wrote:Actually, the
        > church ingeneral is ill-rquipped and
        > ill-informed about SSA and has a hard time
        > counseling
        > people (or even referring people) due to this lack
        > of
        > knowledge and experience. As a result, they often
        > (though well intentioned) lead strugglers "astray."
        >
        > (example: read my testimony on our main website -
        > link below)
        >
        > --Alan
        >
        > --- Drew VanDyche <vandyche@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > A big problem with the Church when it comes to ssa
        > > is that it "over-promises and under-delivers".
        > Back
        > > when Brownsville first began receiving the
        > > anointing, my friend Joseph received an intense
        > > touch from God. Three days later, he was
        > testifying
        > > that God had delivered him from homosexuality. A
        > > film crew was there that night, captured the
        > > testimony and sent it all over america as concrete
        > > proof that change was possible. No one qualified
        > the
        > > fact that Joseph had only been "free" for three
        > > days. He wasn't Jesus with His three days in the
        > > tomb. When Joseph began to doubt and question his
        > > reality, and when he began having to walk out the
        > > process and unraveling his issues, people got
        > > scared, they weren't equipped to handle the hard
        > > questions that their "poster boy" was asking. I
        > > don't know where he is now, but the last that I
        > knew
        > > he was cast aside and back in the "lifestyle." If
        > > you choose to use that phrase.
        > >
        > > One of the things that I find frustrating about
        > the
        > > Church's condemnation of homosexuality with such
        > > vehemence in comparison with another sin such as
        > > pride is that they have convinced themselves that
        > > acting out sexually is a choice and as such the
        > > person with ssa must be more responsible in their
        > > endeavor to walk soberly, righteously and godly in
        > > this present world. And yet, pride and gossip are
        > > more insidious sins that in my opinion are more
        > > destructive for they hide in plain sight. They
        > > masquerade as ethics, morals or sharing in love.
        > If
        > > truly the practicing homosexual is going to hell,
        > > then isn't the practicing self-rightous prideful
        > > bigot? But no, we Christians shy away from that,
        > for
        > > the sin of homosexuality can be clearly seen,
        > can't
        > > it? The sin of pride and gossip eats away like a
        > > cancer from the inside and hides itself as
        > > fundamental legalistic morality. We all fall short
        > > of the glory of God. If homosexuality is truly a
        > > sin, then all it is is missing the mark and at the
        > > most
        > > then it is a symptom. If your son wants to not be
        > > gay, my advice would be that you get down on your
        > > hands and knees and pray that God gives you the
        > > answers and gifts and abundance of whatever it is
        > > that he needs to replace homosexual acting out.
        > That
        > > you divest yourself of all judgements of him, love
        > > him right where he is at, and convince him that it
        > > is not his or your job to change his sexuality.
        > That
        > > if it is truly possible, then it will only come by
        > > Jesus himself. Comfort him, give him options of
        > true
        > > relationship so that he has a choice to do
        > something
        > > different instead of sexualizing his emotions and
        > > conflicts. Cuddle with him on the couch and quiet
        > > the longing in his heart for touch in
        > inappropriate
        > > ways. Meet his needs in a healthy God-given,
        > > unconditional love sort of way. Get him into
        > therapy
        > > with someone who doesn't have an agenda but to see
        > > this boy come to wholeness. And give the whole ssa
        > > issue to God to deal with in his time.
        > >
        > > Be a tree of life for him to partake of, not the
        > > tree of knowledge of good and evil. Don't fear for
        > > his future. Remember, ALL things work together for
        > > good...God is in control. Thank God that we don't
        > > have to be. When we relinquish control, then we
        > are
        > > truly free to love.
        > > In His Care,
        > > Drew
        > >
        > >
        > > Bridget Night <BridgetNight123@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Armand,
        > >
        > > Thank you so much for answering my question. My
        > > husband thought it was a very good question too.
        > He
        > > regularly asks me what discussions are going on in
        > > my groups. Your answer was so genuine and heart
        > > felt! I sent part of the question to my son today
        > > and am curious as to how he will answer it. My
        > what
        > > I remember from our discussions, Johnathan was a
        > > very spiritual child growing up. he would often
        > come
        > > to me and say, 'Guess what God told me today mom."
        >
        > > But, when the SSA thing hit him and he was not
        > > healed, he felt confused and then angry. He made
        > > all sorts of incorrect assumptions about God and
        > the
        > > church teachings then. He began to assume he was
        > an
        > > abomination and that he was going to hell for
        > having
        > > these feelings. You are so right about the self
        > > loathing. I am sure that he secretly tried to hard
        > > to over come this by himself. Thinking that
        > looking
        > > at girly magazines like straight guys do and even
        > > kissing a girl would help him feel straight. After
        > a
        > > while he just did not feel
        > > like he fit in with a God or church that only
        > > condoned straight relationships and families. So,
        > > they either head into the gay lifestyle, like you
        > > mentioned, or else go to a gay affirming church.
        > > Lately, my son seems to want God in his life again
        > > but only in a gay affirming church.
        > >
        > > What I find so frustrating is how difficult this
        > > issue is. Over and over again I see that even
        > those
        > > who have accepted Christ and that homosexuality is
        > > wrong, they still struggle with SSA feelings most
        > of
        > > their lives. I do realize this is a process.
        > > Sounds like someone is trying to loose a 1000
        > > pounds. It's possible, but a slow and painful
        > > process. My heart goes out to you and I feel an
        > > obligation as a parent of a SSA son to educate in
        > > the church and out of the church whenever I can to
        > > make your load easier.
        > >
        > > Hugs, Bridget
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Nieuwleven<mailto:armandoke@...>
        > > To:
        > >
        >
        exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com<mailto:exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com>
        > >
        > > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 4:09 AM
        > > Subject: [ExGDBd] Re: A Question?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Dear Bridget,
        > >
        > > I like your question. I think you rise a very
        > > important discussion
        > > issue for our board. Because the answers are
        > > thousands, as
        > > individuals. I don't think there's a rulo to
        > > generalize and to answer
        > > all the "why" questions.
        > >
        > > One of the things that played a role in my life,
        > > was the
        > > environement. I never felt safe enough to share
        > > the painful truth of
        > > my sexual attraction to other guys with anyone.
        > > The church those days
        > > was quite legalistic, and the message we
        > perceived
        > > was "come to
        > > Christ and everything will be solved."
        > > Unfortunately, nobody spoke
        > > about a process, and we (young boys & girsl)
        > were
        > > expected to behave
        > > as holy as possible. Too much pressure, that
        > > eventually has to
        >
        === message truncated ===


        =====
        -- In Him who leads us to the Absolute Truth,
        Alan Levering; Founder, NCXDS Ex-Gay Internet Ministries

        Web: <http://geocities.com/exgaylinks> | Discussion Board: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard> | Spanish Language Discussion Board: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgayenespa | "Wounded Heart" Abused Men's Group: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/woundedheart> | Chat: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard/chat>
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