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23368Re: [ExGDBd] 20 Questions for "Ex-Gay" Ministry Leaders: A Response - Part 3a

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  • marykaiser59
    Nov 3, 2008
      Then you would not mind if I took up three to four long posts
      considering your theology?

      Sorry, Thomas, but there are many people out there who are much more
      gracious in their attitude towards gays and ex gays and ex ex gays.
      That you have identified as ex gay does not make you an expert on why
      others have a theology that has caused them to move in a direction
      that is allwoing them to express their same sex attraction
      physically. While I disagree with a theology that says same genders
      can be romantically together, I also disagree with a theology that
      allows a man to come to a discussion board and discuss another man's
      very innermost being in such a way. You have every means to contact
      this man and discuss directly with him the issues he has considered -
      intimately.

      You are gifted and articulate. I doubt I can match word for word a
      debate with you. I can however, sense when an error in grace has
      appeared. Brother, there must be another way to 1) discuss what a
      strong foundation in Christ will do for person in ministry 2) to
      invite those who have been disenfranshised from the church back in.

      Your words have hurt even me. If I was dealing with such profound
      issues, I would read your words and walk away from the church. You
      may believe that God has annointed you. Others may support you in
      this belief. But sadly, the Holy Spirit is rarely (if ever) so
      offensive to another christian.




      --- In exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Morey
      <moreytom@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear marykaiser59,
      >  
      > Let me be the first to welcome you to the Ex-Gay Discussion Board.
      And as for your important questions; thanks for asking.
      >  
      > Well, as for others who've left a gay or lesbian lifestyle, I
      cannot speak for them in absolute terms. However, it is my
      observation that the overwhelming majority would indeed hold to
      similar views that I have. And, may I say that all of those ex-
      gays with whom I've had contact about these ex-ex-gay testimonies and
      Anthony Venn-Brown's 20 questions can immediately see the deception,
      whether deliberate or not, that the various authors have propagated,
      and that in just a quick first reading of them!
      >  
      > It does seem to me by your last question that you are
      confusing disagreement with disrespect. I respect everyone for just
      being made in God's image, no matter what their view is on anything.
      Respect of people and acceptance of their world and life views are
      entirely two different subject matters. It is tolerance that one must
      exercise with opposing views, not acceptance, in order to exhibit
      one's respect for one with an opposing view. Tolerance involves
      treating others, as you would want to be treated. This I try to do as
      I look to Jesus as my example.
      >  
      > And, any apologetic or critique is absolutely necessary of those
      gay or lesbian identified folks who have publicized their personal
      testimony in an effort to keep others from finding freedom in Christ
      from their same sex attractions, and in an attempt to invalidate the
      truth of freedom that the ex-gay movement promotes. They need to be
      scrutinized for what they inevitably are, either a very sad story of
      deception, or deliberate propaganda, or possibly even both, since
      they are not Biblically based, nor backed up by scientific
      research.       
      >  
      > I believe you'll find the most respectful people of those who live
      a gay or lesbian lifestyle, but do not share their world and life
      view about human sexuality, are us ex-gays. How could we not be,
      since we understand what its like to battle with sexual identity
      issues, and deal with ignorance from some others who can't empathize
      with us? Unfortunately, I haven't seen as much of this respect
      in return from most gay activists, yet require not only it from
      others, but acceptance or silence from others who may otherwise
      disagree. These are the seeds of fascism. 
      >  
      > I hope this helps.
      >  
      > Blessings,
      >  
      > Tom Morey
      > One of the moderators of the Ex-Gay Discussion Board
      (ExGDBd)                
      >
      > --- On Mon, 11/3/08, marykaiser59 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      >
      > From: marykaiser59 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] 20 Questions for "Ex-Gay" Ministry Leaders: A
      Response - Part 3a
      > To: exgaydiscussionboard@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 4:18 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Thomas,
      >
      > Do you think there are people who left the lifestyle who would
      > respond differently than you have?
      >
      > Does being a christian mean not being accepting/respectfu l of
      > another persons theology?
      >
      > Is a gay man who is a christian - not really a christian?
      >
      > --- In exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com, Thomas Morey
      > <moreytom@ .> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Balu,
      > >  
      > > Thank you for your deeply felt responses to my answers. And I
      > respect anyone who courageously makes a successful effort, as you
      > have done, to communicate in a language that is not one's mother
      > tongue. I wish I could do the same for you in German, but I'm not
      at
      > all familiar with any strictly Teutonic languages. But there are
      > those at this public forum that are, right Bridgette? :-)   
      > >  
      > > I will attempt to address a few of your comments:
      > >  
      > > As a clinical psychologist, I know that patients who undergo, for
      a
      > significant period of time, any kind APA recognized frequent
      > treatment, and find therapeutic benefit, are apt to experience some
      > form of psychological distress. Yes, this was evident in the Jones
      > and Yarhouse study's test findings. This is part and parcel with
      the
      > growing and healing process. It is analogous to the physical
      body "no
      > pain, no gain" adage, and the medical world of treatment. And,
      do not
      > those in their formative years experience growing pains? And don't
      > most medical intervention s, especially invasive, cause some kind
      of
      > discomfort, if not pain?
      > >  
      > > The question is whether the emotional pain, or distress is
      chronic
      > and/or elevated to a point, where one is in danger of harm, such as
      > taking impulsive and desperate measures in order to tolerate it
      > (i.e., anesthetizing via recreational drugs or cutting behaviors).
      > This type of level of distress wasn't even close to being indicated
      > in the study, since the level of elevation was in the category of
      > being minimal, if there was any elevation at all.
      > >  
      > > So, to say that any raised level of distress is "harmful", is
      > absolutely incorrect. If it were, then noone should take the chance
      > of undergoing ANY treatment whatsoever.
      > >  
      > > And, those who hold to such a construct as "internalized
      > homophobia" diagnose anyone who does not desire to act on their
      same
      > sex attractions, with this as a disorder of sorts (which would
      > include me, of course). Well, if this is really a disorder,
      > then where's the evidence-based  research for it being such, as you
      > say there is? You haven't listed any to back up what you say as
      fact,
      > just as Anthony Venn-Brown hasn't. To me, it's just empty
      semantics,
      > (not based on reality), if there is no research. (And folks,
      really,
      > there just isn't any; just misinformation that are unfortunate
      > political statements made under the guise of professionalism! )
      > >  
      > > Jones and Yarhouse indicate otherwise. In fact, they actually
      > indicate benefit for those with such an alleged disorder in their
      > study, even those who reach success as being celibate, but do not
      > reach conversion success. Therefore, it is absolutely incorrect to
      > say that Exodus doesn' t have a positive view of those who don't
      > experience adjustment heterosexually. And since this is all true,
      > semantics, such as "ex-gays" and "those with unwanted SSAs", that
      > reflect the results of valid scientific inquiry need to be
      recognized
      > and utilized by everyone, even those who accepted a contrary
      > hypothesis, such as "internalized homophobics" . I see it as
      parallel
      > to anyone who would be diagnosed as desiring to not act on their
      > strong urges to imbibe alcoholic drinks. Research shows that people
      > tending towards alcoholism, who don't really want to get drunk, and
      > get the help they need to abstain from drink, in order to do so, do
      > experience heightened
      > > psychological distress in their recovery process, yet do
      > experience greater well being and maturity from sticking to their
      > program. Given that this is the case, should one still coin the
      > term "ethylphobic" for those who desire to abstain from drinking,
      if
      > they previously believed that this was a disorder? Of course they
      > shouldn't, if they desire to be congruent with reality. So why hold
      > on to such an unrealistic concept as internalized homophobia, when
      it
      > is defined as "those who experience SSAs that are unwanted?" 
      > >  
      > > Yes, there is a diagnosis of internalized homophobia that does
      > reflect behavioral symptoms that qualify as a disorder, but this
      > involves similar reactions that one would have of other phobias,
      such
      > as arachophobia, the fear of spiders. Such as, does one avoid the
      > topic of homosexuality, and homosexuals at all costs? Are they
      > preoccupied with taking measures to keep such a subject, and
      > identified people, at a relatively safe distance out of their lives
      > (out of sight, out of mind)? Do they actually react
      > disproportionately  (such as get violent) when forced to discuss
      such
      > a subject, or feel threatened by their presence? None of these
      > symptoms ever fit me (except in a mild form possibly when I was
      just
      > pubescent, which most boys do also experience), nor anyone who is
      in,
      > or has had, successful treatment. No, rather, it fits the profile
      of
      > a boy who was raped by a male adult, and then reacts in such a way
      as
      > an adult when he believes he is being
      > > propositioned by another adult male. This is phobic in nature.
      > Disagreeing whether taking on a homosexual identity and lifestyle
      is
      > a viable alternative for one's own personal life is absolutely not,
      > according to research.
      > >  
      > > This will do for now, I believe. Feel free to respond again, Balu.
      > >  
      > > Many blessings,
      > >  
      > > Tom                     
      > >             
      > >
      > > --- On Mon, 9/29/08, Balu at Yahoo <Balu.Yahoo@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > From: Balu at Yahoo <Balu.Yahoo@ ...>
      > > Subject: Re: [ExGDBd] 20 Questions for "Ex-Gay" Ministry Leaders:
      A
      > Response - Part 3a
      > > To: exgaydiscussionboar d@yahoogroups. com
      > > Date: Monday, September 29, 2008, 7:17 AM
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Thomas Morey schrieb:
      > >
      > > >Clinical psychologists Jones and Yarhouse (2007), in their study
      > and book "Ex-Gays?: A Longitudinal Study of Religiously Mediated
      > Change in Sexual Orientation" , state that they have little
      > indication of any substantial harm being done, nor anyone being at
      > risk for such, with those subjects in the Exodus programs that they
      > have examined so far.
      > > >
      > > For the Distress at time T1, T2, T3 they take the SCL-90-R. +Test
      > for
      > > spiritual wellbein +Test for faith maturity scale
      > > It shows actal distress and only in the last 90 days.
      > > But the comments of some of the probands in the book show
      distress
      > between.
      > >
      > > Like APA Ex-Gay-Groups often support a very negative view of
      > > homosexuality. This support a internal homophobia. internal
      > homophobia
      > > is in many research a important factor for distress, compulsive
      > life and
      > > also suizide. Also when no future is in sight. Religiosity is a
      > > contrafactor for suizid.
      > >
      > > In the Yarhouse study at the Shively & DeCecco Scale the
      > homosexuality
      > > subside in many cases more, then the heterosexuality rise.
      > >
      > > The most difficult time is, when the people recognition, that
      they
      > don't
      > > reach a heterosexual life. When they don't reach the mostly
      wanted.
      > > (Failed, not enough faith to change, etc.)
      > > When there are some other things, in wich the Exodus-time helped,
      > it is
      > > not so bad.
      > > When they are on the way, there is not much problem, then they
      have
      > a
      > > strong drive.
      > >
      > > Exodus has no positive views for people who don't reach
      > heterosexuality.
      > > They have the view of a bad "homosexual lifestyle".
      > > When you can't go with us, you can go your own way. You can life
      > your
      > > "homosexual lifestyle". The term "homosexual lifestyle" include
      > commonly
      > > :promiscuity, drugs, distress, early death, potential deadly. I
      > made an
      > > article about this term. I searched pages where "homosexual
      > lifestyle"
      > > was discribed. Horrible.
      > > And when othere views are there, they are not colportated.
      > > Sometime the term looked like: You must be promiscoitus, when you
      > are
      > > gay. You must have every week sex.
      > > It must not. They way of live are diverse.
      > >
      > > Up to the time of 19 i have had also some views of
      the "homosexual
      > > lifestyle". I have not can say, that i am gay. Because gay man
      are
      > old
      > > people that take boys.
      > > This was what i learned from the heterosexual society. My first
      > > "homosexual room" was a bar with hustlers. (The door was open).
      For
      > a
      > > gay youthgroup it tooks me one week, to go in there. I have had
      > fear of
      > > sexual harassment, because i have learned that all gay man will
      > fuck
      > > with all man. In the first half year or year i must change my
      views
      > > about gay men. I must change it to the reality. I must see that
      > there
      > > are bars, you can took man for sex. There are bars, you can talk.
      > The
      > > last ones are relatively new. They can only grow in a free
      society.
      > And
      > > there are other groups, like the youthgroup and others. And there
      > are
      > > long time relationship.
      > > I have had also in my mind: No, you have had coming out, now you
      > can go
      > > around and fuck around. I had in mind, that gay people do this.
      > Iwas
      > > going to the dark room, but had only one time something there. I
      > also go
      > > to toiletts, and had only one timesomething there. It was not
      right
      > for
      > > me. I must not do it. It is now for me only one of many sexual
      > fantasies.
      > >
      > > I think exgay is successfull and necessary for some people.
      > > But the Ex-Gays say: Almost every homosexual had a bad
      relationship
      > with
      > > his father. Homosexuality is a symptom which say this
      relationship
      > is to
      > > fix.
      > > This is a exclusivly viewpoit, for which is no sciensific ground.
      > > "Homosexual lifestyle" is bad.
      > > You don't must life a specific homosexual lifestyle.
      > > "We help many people". (1/3 are heterosexual and asexual, 1/3 had
      > not so
      > > much compulsive sex anymore, but this you can reach also with
      other
      > > therapy also, 1/3 have no cange at all. Spitzer evaluate that it
      > helps
      > > for 3% of the gays.)
      > > There are no views and no standards for which type of homosexuals
      > this
      > > therapy work. Exodus say it is for near everyone unhappy gay man.
      I
      > read
      > > on other sites also: stay 2-3 years in, only then whe can say how
      > it
      > > works for you. Some are 10-15 years there and hope it works for
      > them,
      > > marriaged. And at least they are only gay man. Why the Ex-Gay-
      > leaders
      > > don't say: This works mostly for people with this parameters. And
      > for
      > > people with other parameters it can work another goal, another
      > therapy.
      > > I can only see one thing. Homosexuality must be bad. The book say
      > it. It
      > > must be bad for mostly everyone.
      > > I've read Cristian sites which say like: No gay rights. They can
      > change
      > > (to heterosexuality) when they have only a strong will. There are
      > not so
      > > few cases, where it is say: You prope the therapy, or you can go.
      > > Schools, Churches, Parents. They only know: Ex-Gay had help many
      > > peoples, when they will, they can change.
      > >
      > > When is see sites with numbers from Xiridou (dutch-study) , then
      i
      > know
      > > this are bad sites. Because the study can from the whole concept
      > not at
      > > all say how is the life of the average homosexual. The cohorte is
      > build
      > > for quick view of trends for Aids-Statistics. And it has some
      > > subcohortes which exluded monogamus people. And the must recent
      > > subcohorte are people under 30 years. The coming-out-age sinks,
      but
      > it
      > > is on a high level. I know in whole Europe about 20-25 years.
      (And
      > after
      > > coming out you have often to cange your view about gay man and
      only
      > then
      > > you can go into a steady partnership) It has only the most
      extreme
      > > numbers. (1,5 years of partnership and then 22 sexual partners in
      > this
      > > time) And this is the only cause to citate it. It is only to
      force
      > fear
      > > about homosexuals and the diversity homosexual lifestyle. (NARTH
      > i.e.
      > > has the study three times in his site.)
      > > Xiridou is a first quick test for new sites.
      > >
      > > >12. It seems that almost everyone who is supposively "ex-gay"
      > lived a tormented life of sexual addiction, and self-destructive
      > behaviors. Heterosexuals have the same experience, but don't blame
      > their sexual orientation for this. It seems to me that you get
      sexual
      > addiction and abuse mixed up with sexual orientation. Shouldn't you
      > be working on helping people with their sexual addiction, and not
      > concentrating on the sexual orientation?
      > > >
      > > >The poser is evidently making sweeping generalizations here
      about
      > those with unwanted SSAs who at least now don't act on their
      desires.
      > He assumes that all have at one time, and that all had lived a
      > tormented life of being in bondage to some rather entrenched and
      self-
      > destructive sexually addictive behaviors, which is, of course,
      > completely untrue.
      > > >
      > > But many many spoke about the "homosexual lifestyle", "when i was
      > in the
      > > [homosexual] lifestyle", "i quit the (homosexual) lifestyle."
      > > And Nicolosi say he don't know one gay man which had a good
      > fatherly
      > > relationship.
      > > I read many statements where is like this: "homosexual people
      have
      > no
      > > steady relationship, they don't need civil recognition of their
      > > partnership. "
      > > NARTH has only bad views of homosexuality on their pages. About
      > > psychological/ psychiatrics themes there is only, that it is in
      the
      > > homosexual population more. There are no real discussion about
      the
      > > matter, why this is so. The only thing is: Because there are also
      > in the
      > > (most liberal) netherlands higher numbers, it can not be the
      > > sourounding, the society. Sorry, also in the netherlands exist
      > > heterosexism and homophobia. It is a good land, it is a liberal
      > land,
      > > but it is not the "holy land" in this way.
      > > There is no discussion, there is only: Homosexuals have
      significant
      > more
      > > depression and distress. Only on other sites are discussion about
      > > different factors.
      > >
      > > >They are found to be essential supports towards both lapse and
      > relapse prevention, and are known to prevent those predisposed to
      > homosexually addictive behaviors, that being most of those SSAd
      males
      > who come for help, as a typical pattern and lifestyle in their
      > imminent future. Why do I say typical, especially for the males?
      > Well, because research indicates this to be the case, such as in
      Bell
      > and Weinberg (1978), where 75% of gay males interviewed admitted to
      > having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime,
      15%
      > 100-249, 15% 500-999, and 28% claimed more than 1,000 sexual
      partners
      > in their lifetime.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > Ahhh! Everytime the same old statistics! I hate it! I hate this
      > view at
      > > the Christians and other people which are anti-homosexual (not
      for
      > them,
      > > for others).
      > > Weinberg 1978. The data are not from 1978, they are from 1969 and
      > 1970.
      > > Stonewall, last breath of flower power, "life and sex for all",
      > > especially in San Francisco, from where the data are. The people
      > were
      > > from bars, nightclubs, bathes, sex-clubs and cruising areas. Not
      > near to
      > > be reprensentative. And Bell and Weinberg know this facts, and
      > wrote
      > > about this in the study.
      > > In the 1970s there was a first free time, sex overall. I also
      read
      > that
      > > there was some two-ways (masculinity/ feminity) in the scene
      before
      > > stonewall. It goes from behavior also to the sex in the bed.
      After
      > > stonewall, the same people where very very masculine. The "Castro
      > > Clone". And only after this other extreme it can goes to a more
      > middle,
      > > to a more freely way. Like a pendular.
      > > Have you not better numbers?
      > > Are there comparable datas over the time?
      > > Yes, homosexuals are more promuscuitive. No question about this.
      > Yes,
      > > males are more promiscuitive as women.
      > > But the extremly numbers from Weinberg?
      > > Yes, not so few have after some times problems with compulsive
      and
      > not
      > > more fufillment sexuality. But there are also other therapies. I
      > read
      > > about a psychiater and his team, which was, i think San Francisco
      > or
      > > Loas Angeles. He helped 2/3 of his patients. Mostly not with
      sexual
      > > orientation change.
      > > Yes, partnership held average not so long when there is no
      > corporate
      > > thing, especially when there are crises. This is also at
      > heterosexual
      > > peoples with no child.
      > >
      > > It also that you can badly life a same-sex partnership, when you
      > don't
      > > will be homosexual, when you hate your feelings.
      > > A little sex action is very quick made. You can hide it good from
      > > society. There needs more courage to have a steady partnership.
      And
      > more
      > > courage to life this partnership open, also in the family. That
      > someone
      > > is gay, is one thing. We are a free society, everyone can fauck,
      > which
      > > he will. But to come along with a same-sex-partner is a higher
      > level,
      > > also to be recognitted as same-sex-partners.
      > >
      > > Myfirst partner, which this, i wasvery open. Now he have a new
      > partner,
      > > which is overall better for him. But he was a group-leader in at
      a
      > big
      > > electronic company. Nobody of his compagny schould know, that he
      > has a
      > > same-sex-partner. Because he had fear about his recognigion as
      > leader in
      > > the company. I like to cuddle many people i like for greeting or
      > leave
      > > and gave her a pecker (kiss). (Sister, cousine, good friends).
      With
      > this
      > > two this go now only at night and in gay bars. Because nobody has
      > to
      > > know, that they are gay. There was a party at the "first vienna
      gay
      > and
      > > lesbian house." There were cerry different people. The friend of
      my
      > ex
      > > see there a man from his company. They parted and he goes to
      > greeting
      > > his workmate. After some time was the workmate out of view and
      the
      > > climate was more freely again.
      > > I wonder sometimes, that the partnerhip goes now for 10 years.
      > >
      > > >Although its true that many heterosexuals may have a similar
      rate
      > and pattern of sexually addictive behaviors, it was quite
      misleading
      > for the poser to say that "heterosexuals have the same experience"
      as
      > homosexuals. The overwhelming majority clearly just don't.
      > > >
      > > Yeah, but they also don't say it is there sexual orientation, not
      > at all.
      > >
      > > >The focus by those who support ex-gay ministry, let alone its
      > leaders, needs to be more on any objectives towards recovery from
      > homosexually addictive behaviors, and less on sexual orientation
      > change, although the latter still needs to be encouraged when those
      > SSAd show any interest in pursuing such a goal.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > This is a better view.
      > >
      > > And also the views from the Ex-Gays make not only the view for
      the
      > > unwanted SSAs, mostly they speak of the homoseuals or the people
      > with
      > > homosexual feelings, because ther are no homosexuals, this is
      only
      > a
      > > construct, the homosexuals have a homosexual lifestyle.
      Homosexual
      > are
      > > the people with homosexual feelings. ;-)
      > >
      > > Reguards
      > > Balu
      > > Austria / Europe
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
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