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Re: [ExExGayMinistry] The non-religious dimension of the ex-gay trip: masculinity

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  • Joiner Rex
    I agree largely with what Alan and Korry have stated. I don t think there is any proof of the gay gene at birth. However, there may be a predisposition to
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 11, 2009
      I agree largely with what Alan and Korry have stated. I don't think there is any proof of the gay gene at birth. However, there may be a predisposition to becoming gay if we don't get that affirmation, attention and affection from our father or a father figure in early life. That was my case also.

      I enjoyed some of the artsy things like drawing maps, speaking in Latin around the house and my father made fun of me by calling me "the absent-minded professor" - plus, he was quick to spank us with the belt (not quite beat) and my mother was the dominant one. So, I grew up very afraid of my father. Plus, my dad worked long hours, so he did not have much time to interract with our kids. There were 7 girls and only 2 boys in our household. My brother was far more adventuresome and aggressive than I and he turned out straight. I was far more sensitive and even though we both experimented with mutual masturbation and fellatio while in our teens with ourselves and our friends and cousins, he seemed to "outgrow" that and did not have the same SSA orientation I had. In later years, when my dad came to know the Lord and went back to church, I attempted to bond with him, but the damage had already been done.

      So, there seems to be a great deal of truth to this premise. I would like to see if there is any significant percent of gay men today who do not fit into many of these same "causes." It doesn't seem like there are a lot of the "rough and tumble" that turned out gay. For the most part, I believe it is extremely difficult for our orienation to change, once the damage has been done. Some of us have chosen marriage to a woman in spite of our orientation. I made that choice because of my religious upbringing. And despite the struggle, in my case - I'm glad it happened that way because my wife is my best friend and I have been blessed with two wonderful kids. But my basic orientation remains homosexual.

      Just my thoughts...

      From: AD4071 <ad4071@...>
      To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:24:00 AM
      Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] The non-religious dimension of the ex-gay trip: masculinity

      I'll try and keep my response to this a brief as possible.

      Because of circumstance in my life, with a few minor variations, I agree with those in the ex-gay movement on how one becomes homosexual. At least for me, I fit the model almost perfectly.

      The ex-gay movement says men become homosexual when they are created by God as a "sensitive boy" as opposed to the "rough and tumble boy." I believe God creates both types of boys/men to achieve different purposes in live. The "sensitive types" are usually the ones God "calls" to the ministry, because they have hearts and ears that are sensitive to the will, call and Words of God. The "rough and tumbles" are not real good on hearing God, but they sometimes adapt. The "rough and tumble" boys ususally grow up to play sports, build and construct things, etc. The "sensitive types" are also those that excel in the arts, music, theater, painting, architecture, ect. Being a sensitive boy is not the same as being gay; However, a sensitive boy can become "twisted" or "cross wired" to become gay if certain necessary things are lacking in his childhood or are just not as God intended.

      The ex gay movement also says boys need affirmation, attention and affection (the "three A's")from their fathers. If the sensitive boy doesn't get these things from his father (and other things happen too), he'll have a deprivation and grows up still needing the "three A's" from men. He seeks this in homosexual relationships, but unlike the boy who grows up "straight" the gay man is never able to become satisfied, filled up or completed in fulfilling these things. No one knows or can explain how the straight boy got enough from his father to never need it again, but it seems to be so.

      If sexual abuse before puberty happens and/or the mother is over protector or has to take the leading role in the family (usually because the father was absent, or just a flake), that confuses the sensitive boy's male model image even further. This is sometimes called "smother mother." Boys need and want to be independent and do some kind of dangerous/adventuro us things as they grow up. The over-protective mother won't let them.

      So, for me, I fit the above 100%. I had all this in my childhood, so I believe this is accurate. The part I do not agree with is that we can ever be "healed" by doing "guy stuff" with other men, although that is indeed a good thing to do for us anyway. Guys need the "three A's" even with "straight" men. It's just healthy. I also don't think you can "pray the gay away." For me God's answer to many, many years of those prayers was, "My grace is sufficient for thee."

      Just my two-cents worth.

      Alan in Colorado

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    • bob11wyre
      This is an interesting approach to claim that the religious right knows the cause of being homosexual. I was a Lutheran minister for a number of years and
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 11, 2009
        This is an interesting approach to claim that the religious right knows the "cause" of being homosexual. I was a Lutheran minister for a number of years and have studied this extensively. Recently I heard the author of the new book "Nature's Choice What Science Reveals About the Biological Origins of Sexual Orientation: by Cheryl Weill (ISBN 978-0-7890-3475-5 new paperback version).

        She has brought together all the scientific studies that cover this area with a summary of them all. Knowing Focus on the Family is down the road from us (we both live in Denver) I asked her about the psychological "origins" of Sexual Orientation that the religious right claims. He did write to them asking for scientific studies for their beliefs. (all of the studies in the book are peer reviewed and vetted by professionals). They never wrote her back.

        She maintains that culture, parents, and all the other factors that have been cited by them do not "cause" anyone to become gay. The origins are biological. She presents over wealming evidence.

        If you appraoch this from the religious point of view....they have yet to do peer reviewed studies that prove the change is possible. Even those who claim that "change" has occured in their lives acknowledge that they have to "force" themselves to be straight. There are a few that "believe" that they have changed. Sexuality Orientation is not a either or proposition....people are on a scale that goes from straight to gay with points along the way. Sexual desire is also on a scale. I am sure that some people can "force down" a weak gay orientation.

        One of the studies down is a culture where young boys are removed from the female group to live with the male group. They are expected to suck off the older male members. They grow up to be straight members of their society. It goes to show that gay behavior is not "learned."

        All of this pretty much falls in line with the recent position of the APA. They acknowledge that some people want to becomee "straight" because of their religous beliefs. But they urged that these people be told that "change" rarely happens.

        This field of study is not studied openly (Congress approves all scientific grant studies and they don't approve studies that directly study this homosexuality....they have to write the studies in an ajacent area like HIV) Guess people don't want to really know the truth of sexual orientation.


        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "korrykorrykoan" <korrykorrykoan@...> wrote:
        > Part of ex-gay philosophy argues that you can "pray away the gay." Another part argues that for men, they never bonded with their fathers, were too attached to their mothers, and were often rejected or abused by their male peers and siblings in their childhood. Hence, argues the ex-gay crowd, if learns to feel affirmed in one's masculinity by other men, and finds a compassionate father-surrogate to bond with, you will no longer crave other men's masculinity via same-sex feelings.
        > I am curious to know if any guys ever felt any inadequacy towards themselves as males growing up, and if they ever tried to work on healing such a wound if they did indeed have this issue?
        > For what it is worth, I fit this psychological profile to a T. My father was mentally ill and alcoholic, prone towards moody and irrational behavior, though he was equally often completely absorbed in his work and not around very much. My older (half) brothers were mean-spirited and abusive towards me, and I was frequently the butt of jokes at school, particularly by other boys, not only because of my weight, but my complete lack of athletic aptitude. My mother seemed to be the only consistent source of unconditional love in all of this. Alas, she also had a very narcissistic personality.
        > Yet not all gay men grow up in such a manner. In fact, I had a relationship with a professional American football player once, and I have known many gay men in life with ripped muscles, who can play sports, and who don't have effeminate personalities.
        > That is not to say I have an effeminate personality, but I will say that back when I first started going to gay bars, I was disappointed by the high number of gay men I encountered were indeed somewhat queeny and bitchy.
      • MrChuk@aol.com
        .... and besides.. what does it matter about the cause? Even if we knew for sure, we d still be gay or have SSA, wouldn t we? So, it s all about acceptance
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 11, 2009
          .... and besides.. what does it matter about the cause? Even if we knew for sure, we'd still be gay or have SSA, wouldn't we?
          So, it's all about acceptance [by ourselves and others] isn't it, not etiology?

          -----Original Message-----
          From: AD4071 <ad4071@...>
          To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, Nov 11, 2009 3:15 pm
          Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The non-religious dimension of the ex-gay trip: masculinity

          Sorry guys, but I just have to throw in another two cents worth! LOL

          I think there's a very fine line between being born sensitive/rough and tumble and being born gay/straight. The difference is minor. Both are from birth. I've read so many things from both sides on the origin of homosexuality and personally I think the jury is still out on this one and I don't know if there will ever be a final verdict. Even with the medical/genetic research, the arguments go both ways.

          No matter what you think about the ex-gay movement, at least they don't do as the homophobic religious people do, saying we "chose to be gay." That just isn't so. I can't conceive anyone would ever chose to be discriminated against and/or ridiculed as we often are.


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