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Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Newbie

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  • Joiner Rex
    Alan, I know where you are coming from. In my case, I am one of those old married men. I ve been married to the same woman and my first wife for almost 35
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 3, 2009
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      Alan, I know where you are coming from. In my case, I am one of those old married men. I've been married to the same woman and my first wife for almost 35 years, and I have a couple wonderful kids, now in the 20s. My attraction for men has always been there as well and except for a few instances, I've not acted out my homosexual orientation. And the program I went through, Living Waters, helped me to relate better to men and feel a lot more comfortable around them. Before, I mostly feared being around men despite my great attraction for them.

      Some of the folks on this list have had terrible experiences with "ex-gay" ministries and I have found some of the guys to be almost militant toward these groups, which I think is a mistake and not reflective of the approach of many of these groups. However, I do not agree with some of the things I was taught like masturbation was sinful (which I can't find anywhere in the Bible) and other things.

      Others on this list will tell you of their bad experiences perhaps with ex-gay ministries, which is understandable. But I just want to encourage you that God loves you just the way you are. In fact, even if acting out with our homosexuality is a sin (and I say if), we have a very blessed position by being washed in the blood of Jesus. The apostle Paul said, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will NOT impute sin." So, just trust the Lord through every situation. Each situation is somewhat different and that's why God looks on our hearts, as the scripture says. In my case, I would never leave my wife, who has been very supportive, but she really doesn't know the depths of my struggle.

      So I, like you, am still somewhat unconvinced of all the arguments on both sides of this issue, but I know God loves us just the way we are, and his love is not going to stop.

      Just my thoughts,

      Jerry in Michigan




      ________________________________
      From: ad4071 <ad4071@...>
      To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2009 10:31:31 AM
      Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Newbie


      I am a bit reluctant to post here, but I am wanting to know more about the perspective of ex ex-gay ministry.

      I am 51 and I became a Christian when I was 17 years old. I have known I has same sex attraction since I was quite young. I went to a Christian College in the late 1970's and early 80's. I prayed for release from SSA for many, many years, but it never happened.

      It's kind of a long story, but I was asked to serve in my church a little over three years ago. I felt my SSA restricted me from serving in the capacity I had been asked to fill, so I "came out" to my Pastor and then went to Exodus International looking for help. I found a link to "Living Hope Ministries" and signed up for their "Haven" forums.

      In September of 2008 I "acted out" with another guy and I told my Pastor about it. Last Fall my Pastor asked the Deacons in my church to help me financially by paying for 10 sessions with a Christian Counselor who is associated with "Love Won Out." I went through the 10 sessions plus two more that I paid for. I do believe the counselor helped me understand that my SSA is not my fault and he helped me understand events in my life that contributed to my SSA, BUT I never felt any less attraction to men and I certainly still have absolutely no attraction to women.

      A few weeks ago I met another guy. I'm really crazy about him and I love to be affectionate with him. We've discussed my faith and he told me his mother is a "born again Christian." I don't think he's a Christian, but he's not hostile toward believers. This is really awkward for me, because I do believe the Bible and I want to share the Gospel with him, but I am doing things with him that I believe are wrong. What to do????

      So this brings me to explain why I am here. I wish I could say differently, but I don't think anyone ever gets free from being attracted to other men. A few guys become able to be married to women, but I keep hearing their attraction to men is always predominate. It frustrates me that men who are straight and married lecture me that I am supposed to be celibate, while they have their wives to run to for sex and intimacy. I'm supposed to be all alone and never know what it's like to have the physical affection and warmth of human touch. As I explained above, I have pretty much give in to the SSA.

      I have no ill will toward ex gay ministries nor those involved with them. No one made me promises of change, but they did keep encouraging me to be celibate and try to see if I was developing any attraction to women. I absolutely love the guys in Living Hope Ministries and I'm going to miss them, but I have decided to stop posting there because I no longer believe I am going to change and I don't want "help" anymore.

      Thanks for "listening" to me. I am sorry go on so long.

      Alan







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Brown
      Dear Brother Alan   Welcome to Christian Gays and thank you for posting. Let me introduce myself and then I would like to address some of the issues you
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 3, 2009
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        Dear Brother Alan
         
        Welcome to Christian Gays and thank you for posting. Let me introduce myself and then I would like to address some of the issues you raised. I am a retired Pentecostal pastor for over 30 years who was also involved in ex gay ministry. I had a "demon" of homosexuality and testified to being healed and no longer homosexual. In the end I came to realize that the only one I was fooling was myself and that nothing had changed. You can read my story in my book "I'm Gay and Its OK" by Rev. John W. Brown. You can find it on the Christian Gay site, on my blog "Streams of Healing Water" by Brother John also on Christian Gay site as well as my other teachings. You can also get it off Google either by typing in my name or the name of the book.
         
        As too the questions you ask I believe there is one answer. We are what God made us to be. We have nothing to be delivered from nor is there anything we need healing from. We are not sick, demon possessed, crazy or anything else. We are people who are being faithful to how God made us, gay, being true to that and anything else for us would be a lie. I believe many good church people are sincere in their condemnation of gays and what they think is God's view of us based on false teachings they have received over the years which I address in my book. People fear what they dont understand. So they fear us because they dont understand us. However I believe God loves us as we are. God doesn't change us because He made us the way He wants us to be to be used for His glory. The important lesson here I think is the lesson of love. Much of what I see from the so called "Christian" right would seem to be more hate than love. If God is love then whereever we are
        acting in love we are acting as God would have us regardless of sexual orientation. Jesus says He would recieve all who came to Him and would reject none. That is also the "Great Commission" which is inclusive of all no one is left out. There is no one excluded from being able to hear the gospel and respond. It is my belief you have the feelings you do simply because there is nothing wrong with them and if you can find a Christian man to fall in love with and share your life together with hey go for it I don't believe God would have any objection whatever. As for those who may have gone through the ex gay ministries and come out changed to either asexual (attracted to neither men or women) or have become heterosexual and are now attracted to women I say cool and I am truly glad for you if its indeed the truth and you are not just fooling yourselves as I did for so long. However for myself and many others I know that was not the case and they came out of
        it all still gay. The choice I feel for us then is to either accept who we are and go on to become all God made us to be or deny what we are, stay in the closet, continue to fight what are hearts tells us is the truth about us (and what I believe God is also trying to tell us if we would listen) with all the guilt and condemnation that comes with that. I believe its time to come out of the closet, (blow the closet back to hell forever where it originated as far as I am concerned)and become all God wants us to be.
         
        Hope this helps and feel free to contact me if you have any further questions or just want to talk. I also teach Bible Study on Sunday nites at 6pm Pacific Time and would love to have you join us if you like. We usually have about 45 - 60 minute Bible Study then discussion and chat afterwards until whenever. We could talk then.
         
        God Bless You
         
        Rev. John W. Brown

        --- On Tue, 11/3/09, ad4071 <ad4071@...> wrote:


        From: ad4071 <ad4071@...>
        Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Newbie
        To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 7:31 AM


         



        I am a bit reluctant to post here, but I am wanting to know more about the perspective of ex ex-gay ministry.

        I am 51 and I became a Christian when I was 17 years old. I have known I has same sex attraction since I was quite young. I went to a Christian College in the late 1970's and early 80's. I prayed for release from SSA for many, many years, but it never happened.

        It's kind of a long story, but I was asked to serve in my church a little over three years ago. I felt my SSA restricted me from serving in the capacity I had been asked to fill, so I "came out" to my Pastor and then went to Exodus International looking for help. I found a link to "Living Hope Ministries" and signed up for their "Haven" forums.

        In September of 2008 I "acted out" with another guy and I told my Pastor about it. Last Fall my Pastor asked the Deacons in my church to help me financially by paying for 10 sessions with a Christian Counselor who is associated with "Love Won Out." I went through the 10 sessions plus two more that I paid for. I do believe the counselor helped me understand that my SSA is not my fault and he helped me understand events in my life that contributed to my SSA, BUT I never felt any less attraction to men and I certainly still have absolutely no attraction to women.

        A few weeks ago I met another guy. I'm really crazy about him and I love to be affectionate with him. We've discussed my faith and he told me his mother is a "born again Christian." I don't think he's a Christian, but he's not hostile toward believers. This is really awkward for me, because I do believe the Bible and I want to share the Gospel with him, but I am doing things with him that I believe are wrong. What to do????

        So this brings me to explain why I am here. I wish I could say differently, but I don't think anyone ever gets free from being attracted to other men. A few guys become able to be married to women, but I keep hearing their attraction to men is always predominate. It frustrates me that men who are straight and married lecture me that I am supposed to be celibate, while they have their wives to run to for sex and intimacy. I'm supposed to be all alone and never know what it's like to have the physical affection and warmth of human touch. As I explained above, I have pretty much give in to the SSA.

        I have no ill will toward ex gay ministries nor those involved with them. No one made me promises of change, but they did keep encouraging me to be celibate and try to see if I was developing any attraction to women. I absolutely love the guys in Living Hope Ministries and I'm going to miss them, but I have decided to stop posting there because I no longer believe I am going to change and I don't want "help" anymore.

        Thanks for "listening" to me. I am sorry go on so long.

        Alan
















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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • MrChuk@aol.com
        Alan, You are not alone. Many have walked the journey you are on. Bottom line you will need to examine everything you ve always been taught and be open
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 3, 2009
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          Alan,
          You are not alone. Many have walked the journey you are on. Bottom line
          you will need to examine everything you've always been taught and be open
          minded and accept that some of the things we were taught as Christians are
          simply not true. God is much bigger than our comprehension and God is Love...
          that's it in a nutshell. There are many, many gay Christians and gay
          affirming/friend churches out there. Seek them.. don't try to change
          yourself..as you have experienced... you can't!

          Check out this Ministry/Church in Dallas, TX. You can get free counseling
          from there too.

          _Cathedral of Hope_ (http://www.cathedralofhope.com/)

          Chuk


          In a message dated 11/3/2009 9:42:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
          ad4071@... writes:




          I am a bit reluctant to post here, but I am wanting to know more about the
          perspective of ex ex-gay ministry.

          I am 51 and I became a Christian when I was 17 years old. I have known I
          has same sex attraction since I was quite young. I went to a Christian
          College in the late 1970's and early 80's. I prayed for release from SSA for
          many, many years, but it never happened.

          It's kind of a long story, but I was asked to serve in my church a little
          over three years ago. I felt my SSA restricted me from serving in the
          capacity I had been asked to fill, so I "came out" to my Pastor and then went to
          Exodus International looking for help. I found a link to "Living Hope
          Ministries" and signed up for their "Haven" forums.

          In September of 2008 I "acted out" with another guy and I told my Pastor
          about it. Last Fall my Pastor asked the Deacons in my church to help me
          financially by paying for 10 sessions with a Christian Counselor who is
          associated with "Love Won Out." I went through the 10 sessions plus two more that
          I paid for. I do believe the counselor helped me understand that my SSA is
          not my fault and he helped me understand events in my life that contributed
          to my SSA, BUT I never felt any less attraction to men and I certainly
          still have absolutely no attraction to women.

          A few weeks ago I met another guy. I'm really crazy about him and I love
          to be affectionate with him. We've discussed my faith and he told me his
          mother is a "born again Christian." I don't think he's a Christian, but he's
          not hostile toward believers. This is really awkward for me, because I do
          believe the Bible and I want to share the Gospel with him, but I am doing
          things with him that I believe are wrong. What to do????

          So this brings me to explain why I am here. I wish I could say
          differently, but I don't think anyone ever gets free from being attracted to other
          men. A few guys become able to be married to women, but I keep hearing their
          attraction to men is always predominate. It frustrates me that men who are
          straight and married lecture me that I am supposed to be celibate, while
          they have their wives to run to for sex and intimacy. I'm supposed to be all
          alone and never know what it's like to have the physical affection and warmth
          of human touch. As I explained above, I have pretty much give in to the
          SSA.

          I have no ill will toward ex gay ministries nor those involved with them.
          No one made me promises of change, but they did keep encouraging me to be
          celibate and try to see if I was developing any attraction to women. I
          absolutely love the guys in Living Hope Ministries and I'm going to miss them,
          but I have decided to stop posting there because I no longer believe I am
          going to change and I don't want "help" anymore.

          Thanks for "listening" to me. I am sorry go on so long.

          Alan







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Brown
          Dear Alan   First of all no problem with disagreeing with me. God made all with a free will and mind not robots. I believe that is so we can think for
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 4, 2009
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            Dear Alan
             
            First of all no problem with disagreeing with me. God made all with a free will and mind not robots. I believe that is so we can think for ourselves and not be as sheep led to the slaughter.
             
            Secondly the word homosexual does not appear ever in either the Hebrew, Greek or Armaic in which our Bible was written. It was first added by the tranlators of the Revised Standard Version in 1952. Prior to that it never appeared in any version of the Bible. It also means it was added by man to fit their theological viewpoint in my opinion. For almost the first 400 years of church history the church had no problem with homosexuality or same sex unions and even had ceremonies of blessing for them. The decision without going into a long treatsie here was in part a political decision when those who we would call homosexuals/gays now lost in a power struggle within the church. As part of their punishment the practice of homosexuality was first outlawed and the church began to teach against it and reinterpret the scriptures to fit the new teaching. The penalty for not accepting the new teaching was excommunication, castration, or even death. The new teaching
            has unfortunately become the main teaching on homosexuality accepted by most of the "Christian" church. I cover it all in my book I think I mentioned yesterday "I'm Gay and Its Ok" by Rev. John W. Brown which you can get off of Google for free. I reccomend you read it and I think it will help you understand things a whole lot better.
             
            As for sexual immorality I dont believe it has anything to do with homosexuality or a loving, caring and affirming relationship between two people of the same sex. I believe their love is as valid as that between a man and a woman and is so honored by God. As for the man you are attracted to having a bf already God gave you a free mind and brain to reason with, seek Him with, and discern with use it. Dont be ruled by your cock or sexual desires as that will get you into trouble I can almost everytime. I am not nor will I judge you ever. However some things you may want to consider. What is the relationship between your friend and his current bf? Are they in some type of committed relationship and what happens when that blows up? Also he has shown he is a cheater as he is currently cheating on his current bf? It has been my experience in over 40 years of ministry that generally speaking once a cheater always a cheater. That is not to say he cant change
            just to say in my opinion the odds are against it. That what you want in a bf one who may cheat on you sleeping with others? One you dont know what he may bring home that he caught from others? Also what happens when the phyiscal attraction wears off, when he gets old and gray haired, perhaps puts on weight and is no longer the cute guy he is now? We all get old then what? Is there something more to keep you together or will you discard him for someone new and younger or he you? Again not saying that will happen and not judging as I dont know either of you but just trying to give you some food for thought and hopefully keep you from making a big mistake you may regret later. Beauty is a part of a person but not the whole man. Does he have anything else to offer other than being attractive? After all you will have to be able to get along with this man, his likes, dislikes, personality etc. Sex is wonderful but you cant be doing it 24/7 nor is it all
            their is to life. So you had better have something else in common that you can share and do together and enjoy. Also is he a taker and not a giver? Does he expect you to put out and give without giving anything back in return? Again some food for thought and some questions you may wish to ask yourself and which only you can answer. Easy no! Necessary yes! Hard yes but then no one ever said being a Christian (especially a gay one) was easy (or if they did they were nuts in my opinion). However Jesus promises to be with us and help us through it all. Dont give up just because of some of the so called "christians". There are many gay affirming churches out there and I believe there are more and more who are changing coming to believe what I have shared already and even ordaining them to ministry and also performing weddings/same sex blessings for gay couples even as the early church did. Metropolitan Community Churches is a gay evangelical church found by
            a gay man and his partner for gays. If there is one in your area you may want to check it out. Just a suggestion. It would give you a chance to learn, some fellowship and who knows maybe find a man as good looking as the one you are attracted to now. (No promises or guarantees but who knows)
             
            Anyway hope this helps and I will be praying for you and for you to make the right decision and be led in the right direction for you
             
            Rev. John W. Brown

            --- On Tue, 11/3/09, ad4071 <ad4071@...> wrote:


            From: ad4071 <ad4071@...>
            Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Newbie
            To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 2:13 PM


             



            Reverend Brown,

            Thanks so much for your warm welcome to this group. I'm glad I found this group and I'm looking forward to discussions with all of you.

            Basically I agree with all you have said with one exception. Please don't take me wrong on this, because my belief in this one difference in opinion does not hinder my love for anyone else whatsoever. I just don't think God made me gay. I do, however believe He ALLOWED it to happen. I don't know why, but I know He is in control and nothing happens to me that is not in His control.

            One thing I do know is that gay men are more sensitive, and God loves a sensitive spirit. In other words, someone that is sensitive to Him and to His Word.

            It seems that homophobia is prevalent in much of the church now. The Bible has a lot more to say about adultery and hypocrisy than it does homosexuality. As far as Scripture goes, homosexuality is barely mentioned, yet for many it's nearly the only thing they ever preach about. I think it's because condemnation of someone else makes our own pet sins seem less relevant.

            These so-called churches that run around with the "God hates fags" signs make me sick. Why don't their signs say, "God hates hypocrites. liar and/or adulterers?" God love everyone so much He sent his Son to die on their behalf.

            I am anxious to hear what you believe about sexual immorality. I tend to think that what I've been doing with the other guy I mentioned is not right, but I'm acting upon a lifelong desire for intimacy with another man. Here's the other concern, this guy has a live in BF, but he's seeing me when the BF is at work. Honestly, this guy is exactly the type of guy that's perfect for me, except for him having another BF. I do love this guy.

            Alan











            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Joiner Rex
            Hi Rev Brown: I have a question, but I ll try to seek out your book, if you cover that there. What scripture are you referencing where the word homosexual
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 4, 2009
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              Hi Rev Brown:

              I have a question, but I'll try to seek out your book, if you cover that there. What scripture are you referencing where the word homosexual was first inserted into the Revised Standard Version? Can you give me the specific scripture so I might research it myself? I don't actually recall in my years of Bible study ever seeing the actual word homosexual anywhere in the Bible period, so I'm confused.

              The other question involves the immorality question. If God expects us to be married to one man or one woman and have sex strictly inside that committed relationship, then what about me, as a married man for over 30 years? Because I am still a gay man, as far as my sexual orientation is concerned, are you saying that God would have me break up my marriage in order to follow after my "real me?" Or, if I love my wife and kids and have made a decision to not leave her, would you say that I would be lost and go to hell if I did have a sexual relationship with another man without leaving and divorcing my wife?

              Just some questions because some men claim they are actually and, in fact, bisexual. I do not claim that, but I happen to be married to a woman and despite my overwhelming desire for gay affection and sex, for the most part I have not embraced that part of me as fully as I would love to because it could break up my marriage, which I don't believe to be God's will in my case. And, if your point is valid about self-sacrifice in the case of Alan not having sex with a man who was already in a committed relationship is valid, then why would it be a stretch to use the same logic in saying that a gay man might have to be married to a woman to fulfill sexual needs, or remain celebate? It's just difficult to understand all the gay theology arguments, but I'm still trying. But, hopefully you cover it more fully in your book.

              Jerry in Michigan




              ________________________________
              From: John Brown <godismovingtoday@...>
              To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 7:53:52 PM
              Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Newbie


              Dear Alan

              First of all no problem with disagreeing with me. God made all with a free will and mind not robots. I believe that is so we can think for ourselves and not be as sheep led to the slaughter.

              Secondly the word homosexual does not appear ever in either the Hebrew, Greek or Armaic in which our Bible was written. It was first added by the tranlators of the Revised Standard Version in 1952. Prior to that it never appeared in any version of the Bible. It also means it was added by man to fit their theological viewpoint in my opinion. For almost the first 400 years of church history the church had no problem with homosexuality or same sex unions and even had ceremonies of blessing for them. The decision without going into a long treatsie here was in part a political decision when those who we would call homosexuals/ gays now lost in a power struggle within the church. As part of their punishment the practice of homosexuality was first outlawed and the church began to teach against it and reinterpret the scriptures to fit the new teaching. The penalty for not accepting the new teaching was excommunication, castration, or even death. The new teaching
              has unfortunately become the main teaching on homosexuality accepted by most of the "Christian" church. I cover it all in my book I think I mentioned yesterday "I'm Gay and Its Ok" by Rev. John W. Brown which you can get off of Google for free. I reccomend you read it and I think it will help you understand things a whole lot better.

              As for sexual immorality I dont believe it has anything to do with homosexuality or a loving, caring and affirming relationship between two people of the same sex. I believe their love is as valid as that between a man and a woman and is so honored by God. As for the man you are attracted to having a bf already God gave you a free mind and brain to reason with, seek Him with, and discern with use it. Dont be ruled by your cock or sexual desires as that will get you into trouble I can almost everytime. I am not nor will I judge you ever. However some things you may want to consider. What is the relationship between your friend and his current bf? Are they in some type of committed relationship and what happens when that blows up? Also he has shown he is a cheater as he is currently cheating on his current bf? It has been my experience in over 40 years of ministry that generally speaking once a cheater always a cheater. That is not to say he cant change
              just to say in my opinion the odds are against it. That what you want in a bf one who may cheat on you sleeping with others? One you dont know what he may bring home that he caught from others? Also what happens when the phyiscal attraction wears off, when he gets old and gray haired, perhaps puts on weight and is no longer the cute guy he is now? We all get old then what? Is there something more to keep you together or will you discard him for someone new and younger or he you? Again not saying that will happen and not judging as I dont know either of you but just trying to give you some food for thought and hopefully keep you from making a big mistake you may regret later. Beauty is a part of a person but not the whole man. Does he have anything else to offer other than being attractive? After all you will have to be able to get along with this man, his likes, dislikes, personality etc. Sex is wonderful but you cant be doing it 24/7 nor is it all
              their is to life. So you had better have something else in common that you can share and do together and enjoy. Also is he a taker and not a giver? Does he expect you to put out and give without giving anything back in return? Again some food for thought and some questions you may wish to ask yourself and which only you can answer. Easy no! Necessary yes! Hard yes but then no one ever said being a Christian (especially a gay one) was easy (or if they did they were nuts in my opinion). However Jesus promises to be with us and help us through it all. Dont give up just because of some of the so called "christians" . There are many gay affirming churches out there and I believe there are more and more who are changing coming to believe what I have shared already and even ordaining them to ministry and also performing weddings/same sex blessings for gay couples even as the early church did. Metropolitan Community Churches is a gay evangelical church found by
              a gay man and his partner for gays. If there is one in your area you may want to check it out. Just a suggestion. It would give you a chance to learn, some fellowship and who knows maybe find a man as good looking as the one you are attracted to now. (No promises or guarantees but who knows)

              Anyway hope this helps and I will be praying for you and for you to make the right decision and be led in the right direction for you

              Rev. John W. Brown

              --- On Tue, 11/3/09, ad4071 <ad4071@yahoo. com> wrote:

              From: ad4071 <ad4071@yahoo. com>
              Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Newbie
              To: exexgayministry@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 2:13 PM



              Reverend Brown,

              Thanks so much for your warm welcome to this group. I'm glad I found this group and I'm looking forward to discussions with all of you.

              Basically I agree with all you have said with one exception. Please don't take me wrong on this, because my belief in this one difference in opinion does not hinder my love for anyone else whatsoever. I just don't think God made me gay. I do, however believe He ALLOWED it to happen. I don't know why, but I know He is in control and nothing happens to me that is not in His control.

              One thing I do know is that gay men are more sensitive, and God loves a sensitive spirit. In other words, someone that is sensitive to Him and to His Word.

              It seems that homophobia is prevalent in much of the church now. The Bible has a lot more to say about adultery and hypocrisy than it does homosexuality. As far as Scripture goes, homosexuality is barely mentioned, yet for many it's nearly the only thing they ever preach about. I think it's because condemnation of someone else makes our own pet sins seem less relevant.

              These so-called churches that run around with the "God hates fags" signs make me sick. Why don't their signs say, "God hates hypocrites. liar and/or adulterers?" God love everyone so much He sent his Son to die on their behalf.

              I am anxious to hear what you believe about sexual immorality. I tend to think that what I've been doing with the other guy I mentioned is not right, but I'm acting upon a lifelong desire for intimacy with another man. Here's the other concern, this guy has a live in BF, but he's seeing me when the BF is at work. Honestly, this guy is exactly the type of guy that's perfect for me, except for him having another BF. I do love this guy.

              Alan

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Brown
              Dear Brother Alan   Let me try and answer your emails here. First was not judging and sorry if you took it that way just trying to give you some things to
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 4, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Brother Alan
                 
                Let me try and answer your emails here. First was not judging and sorry if you took it that way just trying to give you some things to think about. The rest is up to you. Secondly as too the words you ask about here let me explain.
                 
                In the time of the Bible it was perfectly legal with the laws of the time for a male to have a male slave for the purpose of sex either when women were not around or before a battle.Malakos I believe reders to a male or youth forced into playing a passive role in sex (or the part of a woman) by a stronger man arsenokoites. In this because he was a slave (therefore no rights) or because the man was stronger he could the weaker to have sex with him. However please note that the Greek here is very imprecise as to its actual meaning. The word as used here is found nowhere else in the Bible nor in any other classical Greek and may be a word made up by Paul. These two words have been translated as pedophiles, abusers of themselves with mankind, homosexuals,, male prostitute, temple prostuite, idolaters,adulterers, boy prostitutes, sodomites, immoral, fornicators, unjust, effminate are all possible translations of the word. One or all may be correct take your
                choice. I have about 7 different versions of the Bible in my home none of which agree as too the exact meaning of this verse and I believe it is probably impossible to know for sure exactly what Paul had in mine. However judging from other scriptures and writings of Paul I believe he has two things in mind.
                 
                1. That no one should be forced to have sex who doesn't want it. Rape throughout the Bible is condemned as sex should always be an act of love in my opinion. With this I believe Paul would agree and it would agree with the malakois and arsenokoites. I described earlier.
                 
                2. Paul is concerned with Idol worship of which sex was a very important part in the worship of the gods and goddesses. Men would castrate themselves, dress like woman, grow their hair long in devotion to the goddesses they served and to be like them. Vice versa for women it would be to put on men's clothing, cut their hair short in imitation of the gods they served. Also it was common for females prostitutes to go around with their heads uncovered to advertise the fact they were available for sex if any man wanted to use them. So therefore the prohibitions to put a difference between all the cultic practices etc of the non believing world and Christians. Also to show again sex is an act of love not to be indiscrimately shared around but shared with a special someone in the context of an affirming, caring and loving relationship.
                 
                In either case I dont believe these verses have anything to do with a loving, caring relationship between two people of the same sex. Some may disagree with what I have shared but you have my opinion for whats it worth. Pray about it and do as God directs you including reject it with everything I have shared if God so directs.
                 
                Again look forward to hearing from you and talking with you through these emails
                 
                Rev. John W. Brown
                 
                 
                 
                 
                --- On Wed, 11/4/09, ad4071 <ad4071@...> wrote:


                From: ad4071 <ad4071@...>
                Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Newbie
                To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 4:00 PM


                 





                Thank you Chuk. I appreciate your comments.

                I'd like to hear what others here might have to say in regards to the translation of the Greek words (malakos and arsenokoites) commonly translated as "homosexuals" and "sodomites" in 1 Cor. 6:9. According to my former Pastor, those do not apply to me. I also believe that passage refers to unbelievers. What is your understanding?

                I also value input on what kinds of relationships are acceptable to God? Am I sinning when I am with my buddy?

                Alan











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              • John Brown
                Dear Brother Jerry,   First the scripture is I Corinthians 6:9 which I have already covered in a post to Alan that went to the whole group so you should have
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 4, 2009
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                  Dear Brother Jerry,
                   
                  First the scripture is I Corinthians 6:9 which I have already covered in a post to Alan that went to the whole group so you should have gotten it and read my comments there.
                   
                  As for the other situation you mention I wouldn't even begin to try and answer that one definitely one way or the other. Generally I am opposed to divorce especially if there are children involved. However I realize many men due to pressure from family, friends, church, society got married thinking it was the right thing to do, or that it would cure them of their own homosexuality only to realize to late that nothing had changed or that they were in fact still gay. Some have chosen to remain with their wives and others have chosen to divorce and go find a partner to live with. I believe that is a choice each person has to make and there are no simple answers or pat answers here. As for whether you sin by sleeping/having sex with another man I am not your judge nor do I wish to be. That is between you and God and I have found him usually a whole lot more open, forgiving and loving than a lot of us give him credit for.  I believe the Bible is a book
                  about God and what He is like not a text book on sex or anything else for that matter. It teaches about a God that loves and forgives is caring and affirming of all without exception. That is the God I serve and what I try to imitate in my life. Dont know if this helps or answers your questions but is the best I can do for the moment. Would be glad to talk with you further if you like
                   
                  God Bless You
                   
                  Rev. John W. Brown
                  --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Joiner Rex <rexjoiner@...> wrote:


                  From: Joiner Rex <rexjoiner@...>
                  Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Newbie
                  To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 6:09 PM


                   



                  Hi Rev Brown:

                  I have a question, but I'll try to seek out your book, if you cover that there. What scripture are you referencing where the word homosexual was first inserted into the Revised Standard Version? Can you give me the specific scripture so I might research it myself? I don't actually recall in my years of Bible study ever seeing the actual word homosexual anywhere in the Bible period, so I'm confused.

                  The other question involves the immorality question. If God expects us to be married to one man or one woman and have sex strictly inside that committed relationship, then what about me, as a married man for over 30 years? Because I am still a gay man, as far as my sexual orientation is concerned, are you saying that God would have me break up my marriage in order to follow after my "real me?" Or, if I love my wife and kids and have made a decision to not leave her, would you say that I would be lost and go to hell if I did have a sexual relationship with another man without leaving and divorcing my wife?

                  Just some questions because some men claim they are actually and, in fact, bisexual. I do not claim that, but I happen to be married to a woman and despite my overwhelming desire for gay affection and sex, for the most part I have not embraced that part of me as fully as I would love to because it could break up my marriage, which I don't believe to be God's will in my case. And, if your point is valid about self-sacrifice in the case of Alan not having sex with a man who was already in a committed relationship is valid, then why would it be a stretch to use the same logic in saying that a gay man might have to be married to a woman to fulfill sexual needs, or remain celebate? It's just difficult to understand all the gay theology arguments, but I'm still trying. But, hopefully you cover it more fully in your book.

                  Jerry in Michigan

                  ____________ _________ _________ __
                  From: John Brown <godismovingtoday@ yahoo.com>
                  To: exexgayministry@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2009 7:53:52 PM
                  Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Newbie

                  Dear Alan

                  First of all no problem with disagreeing with me. God made all with a free will and mind not robots. I believe that is so we can think for ourselves and not be as sheep led to the slaughter.

                  Secondly the word homosexual does not appear ever in either the Hebrew, Greek or Armaic in which our Bible was written. It was first added by the tranlators of the Revised Standard Version in 1952. Prior to that it never appeared in any version of the Bible. It also means it was added by man to fit their theological viewpoint in my opinion. For almost the first 400 years of church history the church had no problem with homosexuality or same sex unions and even had ceremonies of blessing for them. The decision without going into a long treatsie here was in part a political decision when those who we would call homosexuals/ gays now lost in a power struggle within the church. As part of their punishment the practice of homosexuality was first outlawed and the church began to teach against it and reinterpret the scriptures to fit the new teaching. The penalty for not accepting the new teaching was excommunication, castration, or even death. The new teaching
                  has unfortunately become the main teaching on homosexuality accepted by most of the "Christian" church. I cover it all in my book I think I mentioned yesterday "I'm Gay and Its Ok" by Rev. John W. Brown which you can get off of Google for free. I reccomend you read it and I think it will help you understand things a whole lot better.

                  As for sexual immorality I dont believe it has anything to do with homosexuality or a loving, caring and affirming relationship between two people of the same sex. I believe their love is as valid as that between a man and a woman and is so honored by God. As for the man you are attracted to having a bf already God gave you a free mind and brain to reason with, seek Him with, and discern with use it. Dont be ruled by your cock or sexual desires as that will get you into trouble I can almost everytime. I am not nor will I judge you ever. However some things you may want to consider. What is the relationship between your friend and his current bf? Are they in some type of committed relationship and what happens when that blows up? Also he has shown he is a cheater as he is currently cheating on his current bf? It has been my experience in over 40 years of ministry that generally speaking once a cheater always a cheater. That is not to say he cant change
                  just to say in my opinion the odds are against it. That what you want in a bf one who may cheat on you sleeping with others? One you dont know what he may bring home that he caught from others? Also what happens when the phyiscal attraction wears off, when he gets old and gray haired, perhaps puts on weight and is no longer the cute guy he is now? We all get old then what? Is there something more to keep you together or will you discard him for someone new and younger or he you? Again not saying that will happen and not judging as I dont know either of you but just trying to give you some food for thought and hopefully keep you from making a big mistake you may regret later. Beauty is a part of a person but not the whole man. Does he have anything else to offer other than being attractive? After all you will have to be able to get along with this man, his likes, dislikes, personality etc. Sex is wonderful but you cant be doing it 24/7 nor is it all
                  their is to life. So you had better have something else in common that you can share and do together and enjoy. Also is he a taker and not a giver? Does he expect you to put out and give without giving anything back in return? Again some food for thought and some questions you may wish to ask yourself and which only you can answer. Easy no! Necessary yes! Hard yes but then no one ever said being a Christian (especially a gay one) was easy (or if they did they were nuts in my opinion). However Jesus promises to be with us and help us through it all. Dont give up just because of some of the so called "christians" . There are many gay affirming churches out there and I believe there are more and more who are changing coming to believe what I have shared already and even ordaining them to ministry and also performing weddings/same sex blessings for gay couples even as the early church did. Metropolitan Community Churches is a gay evangelical church found by
                  a gay man and his partner for gays. If there is one in your area you may want to check it out. Just a suggestion. It would give you a chance to learn, some fellowship and who knows maybe find a man as good looking as the one you are attracted to now. (No promises or guarantees but who knows)

                  Anyway hope this helps and I will be praying for you and for you to make the right decision and be led in the right direction for you

                  Rev. John W. Brown

                  --- On Tue, 11/3/09, ad4071 <ad4071@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  From: ad4071 <ad4071@yahoo. com>
                  Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Newbie
                  To: exexgayministry@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 2:13 PM

                  Reverend Brown,

                  Thanks so much for your warm welcome to this group. I'm glad I found this group and I'm looking forward to discussions with all of you.

                  Basically I agree with all you have said with one exception. Please don't take me wrong on this, because my belief in this one difference in opinion does not hinder my love for anyone else whatsoever. I just don't think God made me gay. I do, however believe He ALLOWED it to happen. I don't know why, but I know He is in control and nothing happens to me that is not in His control.

                  One thing I do know is that gay men are more sensitive, and God loves a sensitive spirit. In other words, someone that is sensitive to Him and to His Word.

                  It seems that homophobia is prevalent in much of the church now. The Bible has a lot more to say about adultery and hypocrisy than it does homosexuality. As far as Scripture goes, homosexuality is barely mentioned, yet for many it's nearly the only thing they ever preach about. I think it's because condemnation of someone else makes our own pet sins seem less relevant.

                  These so-called churches that run around with the "God hates fags" signs make me sick. Why don't their signs say, "God hates hypocrites. liar and/or adulterers?" God love everyone so much He sent his Son to die on their behalf.

                  I am anxious to hear what you believe about sexual immorality. I tend to think that what I've been doing with the other guy I mentioned is not right, but I'm acting upon a lifelong desire for intimacy with another man. Here's the other concern, this guy has a live in BF, but he's seeing me when the BF is at work. Honestly, this guy is exactly the type of guy that's perfect for me, except for him having another BF. I do love this guy.

                  Alan

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Brown
                  Dear Brother Alan   Yes on your suspicions on I Corinthians 6:9 (see last email I sent you) and in all you describe I see no sin. Most of us have been taught
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 4, 2009
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                    Dear Brother Alan
                     
                    Yes on your suspicions on I Corinthians 6:9 (see last email I sent you) and in all you describe I see no sin. Most of us have been taught by sincere but sincerely wrong people (in my opinion) that gays are not normal, we are sick, or possessed by devils, God hates us because of who we are (especially if we acr on it), we are going to burn in hell forever etc. This leads to a lot of self loathing, attempts to change ourselves (which I believe are doomed to failure as we cant change ourselves) to convince ourselves we are not gay but are like everyone else etc. However when all is said and done we find out we are still gay and have the same feelings we have always had. Why because I believe God is trying to tell us its ok, nothing wrong with same attractions or acting on them within the context of willing partners and preferably/ideally within a loving, caring and affirming relationship that is also Christ centered.
                     
                    As for your rape I'm sorry to hear about that. Know rape is never approved of or condoned in the Bible as love is or should be always an act of love as I have said before. As for how it can be expressed there are many ways to show love other than by sex or anal sex. Caring, corcern, helping others, working for social justice and many other ways are all legimitate ways of expressing love. In the day you find a partner then you can discuss sex and what you all may wish to do about it. As for confession for what? For being gay? For loving someone of the same sex as you? For wanting to be touched, loved, cared about? God help us. In other words nothing to repent for. You are simply being what you are and assuming it was a mutual thing between you and you both wanted it not a problem. as for your multiple partners who cares. I can guarantee Jesus doesn't. He said to the prostitute caught in the act of adultery go and sin no more and totally forgave her. It
                    was the religious people who wanted to stone her according to the law not Jesus. I believe it is the same today. Jesus forgives you, I forgive you, now forgive yourself and move on in all God has for you and wants to you to be. It is no sin to fall in the mud but however it is a sin to stay in the mud and refuse to get back up, clean off and go on. God never gives up on us as long as we are willing to continue working with Him and dont give up. God is the God of second chances or as many as we need to get it right. That is not an excuse to deliberately fail or mess up but does mean God understands us and doesn't give on us even when we give up on ourselves. when we are ready to get up, return to Him and go on He is ready to recieve us and forgive us just like in the parable of the prodigal son. Failure is not final with God but giving up can be. So get up, keep on trucking (to use an old 1960;s cliche) and become all God wants you to be
                     
                    Hope this helps. Always look forward to hearing from you
                     
                    Rev. John W. Brown
                    --- On Wed, 11/4/09, ad4071 <ad4071@...> wrote:


                    From: ad4071 <ad4071@...>
                    Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Newbie
                    To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 7:27 PM


                     





                    Rev. Brown,

                    Please, no need to apologize for offending me whatsoever. I am not offended. In fact, I want to hear the honest truth about what you and others believe regarding my situation.

                    You see, in the past I have had a deep desire to please God and do His will. Just a bit over a year ago, I broke down and acted upon my homosexual desire to be with another man. As I told you, my experiences with other guys have been mostly restricted to masturbating together, and then more seriously in a one time thing with another guy, and now my friend I am telling you about here. I have not engaged in anal sex and right now that holds no appeal to me.

                    I am not completely convinced either way yet, and I appreciate hearing your interpretation of what Scripture says. I'm rather suspecting that 1 Cor. 6:9 is talking about the two participants in anal sex (sodomy). i.e. malakos = receiver and arsenokoites = giver
                    I know this might sound like I am trying to defend myself since I have not participated in anal sex, but I am not. I think I am implicated in what Scripture says about sexual immorality no matter what view we take, because I've had multiple partners, etc.

                    I might add that someone did perform anal sex on me when I was just 12 years old and I was hurt. I think this is why it holds no appeal for me right now.

                    Please be frank with me. I am seeking the truth and I'm trying to reconcile what I believe with my homosexuality and Christian faith. At the moment, that is not easy. I have been taught that having same sex attractions is not sin, but acting out upon those attractions is sin. I have also been taught that if I am unrepentant (unwilling to change direction/stop my "sinful" behavior), that puts me out of fellowship with God and He has nothing to do with me, except possible discipline until I confess my sin(s) and repent. See why I am conflicted, because I've come to the conclusion that I need human touch, warmth and affection?

                    Thanks,
                    Alan











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                  • MrChuk@aol.com
                    I work with developmentally disabled persons for the past 30 years.... They are less than normal compared to the rest of us... so why didn t Got make
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 4, 2009
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                      I work with developmentally disabled persons for the past 30 years....
                      They are less than "normal" compared to the rest of us... so why didn't Got
                      "make them" normal.... I think you are right... there is a parameter that
                      God is "hands off" to stay it generally... and things in creation go awry
                      from His best intentions... but that never, ever diminishes His love for each
                      of his creation.
                      Chuk


                      In a message dated 11/4/2009 5:47:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,
                      ad4071@... writes:




                      Reverend Brown,

                      Thanks so much for your warm welcome to this group. I'm glad I found this
                      group and I'm looking forward to discussions with all of you.

                      Basically I agree with all you have said with one exception. Please don't
                      take me wrong on this, because my belief in this one difference in opinion
                      does not hinder my love for anyone else whatsoever. I just don't think God
                      made me gay. I do, however believe He ALLOWED it to happen. I don't know
                      why, but I know He is in control and nothing happens to me that is not in His
                      control.

                      One thing I do know is that gay men are more sensitive, and God loves a
                      sensitive spirit. In other words, someone that is sensitive to Him and to His
                      Word.

                      It seems that homophobia is prevalent in much of the church now. The Bible
                      has a lot more to say about adultery and hypocrisy than it does
                      homosexuality. As far as Scripture goes, homosexuality is barely mentioned, yet for
                      many it's nearly the only thing they ever preach about. I think it's because
                      condemnation of someone else makes our own pet sins seem less relevant.

                      These so-called churches that run around with the "God hates fags" signs
                      make me sick. Why don't their signs say, "God hates hypocrites. liar and/or
                      adulterers?" God love everyone so much He sent his Son to die on their
                      behalf.

                      I am anxious to hear what you believe about sexual immorality. I tend to
                      think that what I've been doing with the other guy I mentioned is not right,
                      but I'm acting upon a lifelong desire for intimacy with another man.
                      Here's the other concern, this guy has a live in BF, but he's seeing me when the
                      BF is at work. Honestly, this guy is exactly the type of guy that's
                      perfect for me, except for him having another BF. I do love this guy.

                      Alan







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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