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Re: Three questions

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  • nyguy_1225
    I just happened to catch this post tonight. What causes homosexuality? We re really still in the stone-age when it comes to answering this question.
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 5, 2006
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      I just happened to catch this post tonight. What "causes"
      homosexuality? We're really still in the stone-age when it comes to
      answering this question. Interestingly, in 2003, to mark the 50th
      anniversary of the discovery of the DNA double helix, the
      magazine "Scientific America" published an interview with James D.
      Watson. Watson was one of the co-discoverers of the DNA double
      helix, and therefore hardly a lightweight in the field of genetic
      science. As part of the duo (James Watson and Francis Crick) who
      proposed the double helix model for the structure of DNA in 1953, he
      is responsible for giving us the molecular model that in many ways
      changed both science and society.

      One of the questions they asked him during the interview was: "If you
      were starting out as a researcher now, what kind of things would you
      study?" Watson said: "I'd be working on something about connections
      between genes and behavior. Some people say they're mystified that
      men can like men, but I say, it's just as mysterious as why men like
      women," implying that even basic heterosexuality involves a key
      genetic element.

      Scientists increasingly are discovering that almost everything in
      life -- including our sexuality -- results from a combination of BOTH
      genetic AND environmental factors. To reduce the "cause" of
      sexuality (hetero- or homo-) to either the nature or nurture argument
      misses the complexity of what we all are. They know now without
      question that even the most basic GENETIC traits require
      ENVIRONMENTAL factors for those genes to ultimately "express"
      themselves. There is a sensitive and multifaceted balance between
      the two that we haven't even begun to crack. Bottom line: What
      causes some people to be gay? The answer is as complex as we are.

      -Alex


      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce"
      <pete.zayonce@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi everyone,
      >
      > I've got three questions which you're welcome to answer, or not.
      Think
      > carefully about your response to each one, explain where
      appropriate:
      >
      > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay
      or have
      > previous gay feelings?
      >
      > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that
      being gay
      > needs to be changed?
      >
      > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
      >
      > There's no pressure to participate, and if you answer, please think
      about
      > your answers and give honest ones.
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Pete
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Scott Russell
      Has anyone else seen the recent DVD release Fixing Frank. I saw it on sale at Netflix for $5 or so and it sounded somewhat interesting. It stars Dan
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 6, 2006
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        Has anyone else seen the recent DVD release "Fixing Frank." I saw it on sale at Netflix for $5 or so and it sounded somewhat interesting. It stars Dan Butler, of "Frasier" fame, and other recognizable gay actors.

        Here's the description:

        At the urging of his psychologist boyfriend, Jonathan, investigative reporter Frank sets to work on an exposé of Dr. Arthur Apsey, a therapist known for his controversial work in "curing" homosexuality. Posing as a gay patient who wants to "convert," Frank enlists in a course of treatment -- and soon finds that the sessions stir up unsettling questions and doubts about his sexuality and identity.



        I don't want to comment too much here so that I won't prejudice people's opinions. If you want to comment on it with details about the movie, please preface them with a "SPOILERS" warning.

        Like this...

        SPOILERS! If you haven't seen the movie yet, and want to form your own opinion first, don't read the following:



        I definitely find the movie problematic, but also confusing. What is the point? Is it about the relationship rather than the therapy? Is it a tirade against therapy/therapists in general? There is a director's commentary I should listen to. I'm very curious to know the "back-story" -- what motivated the playwright?

        It's not a bad movie -- the acting is pretty good -- but I'm just not sure what to "make" of it...

        I happened to watch it with Harry Knox of the HRC who was visiting and he thought it was "disturbing." He never went through the ex-gay filter, so it did spur a GREAT conversation between us.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Larry
        Hi Pete and everyone This past weekend I participated in a very valuable and enriching Man-to-Man: Sexual Health Seminar put on by the University of Minnesota
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 6, 2006
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          Hi Pete and everyone

          This past weekend I participated in a very valuable and enriching Man-to-Man: Sexual
          Health Seminar put on by the University of Minnesota under the direction of B R Simon
          Rosser, Ph.D. If any of you ever get the chance to attend this Seminar which has been
          going on for over 10 years and is expanding across the USA, I encourage you to attend.

          As to the three Questions, I will be glad to answer them. And I welcome anyone who
          would want to write me privately at dadheniso@... with any questions or
          comments.

          > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay
          > or have previous gay feelings?
          I believe that I was created by God to be gay, just like I was
          created to be right handed. That I have been Gay from the
          moment of my birth.

          > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that
          > being gay needs to be changed?
          For most of my life, I believe God called me to "Minister" and
          therefore I constantly attempted to attend seminary or Bible
          Training to be ordained. While at LMTC at North Heights LC
          in Roseville, MN I was told that I had to give up being Gay, I
          had to become Ex-Gay to be acceptable to God and be in the
          Lay Ministry Training Program. I believed their lies and tried
          but soon became a "Good hypocritical Chrisian?, living a dual
          life.

          > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
          Got a couple hours and a few pages? Eight years ago I joined a
          different Lutheran Church and the first service talked to the
          Pastor about becoming a member. I told him that I wanted to
          work with Gays in Ministry. He said "Great, we have been wanting
          to get that ministry going. Are you going to Pride, this afternoon?"

          I had entered a church where Gays were accepted, encouraged to
          be themselves, that sin was done by everyone and everyone needed
          to be forgiven for all kinds of sins. But it was normal to be Gay. I
          became involved in the Reconciled to Christ Movement and consider
          myself still active in it.

          I am Gay, a homosexual, created by God to be Gay. The things I chose
          to do growing up like playing with dolls, mud pies, and attraction to
          other boys came out of my inner need, it was not forced upon me. I
          choose to be Gay. If sexual orientation was a choice, I might try to fix
          it but my years of being Ex-Gay, proved to myself that I was meant to
          be Gay. The Day I was told I No Longer had to be Ex-Gay, the biggest
          load of pain and suffering fell off of my shoulders.

          As a Christian, I can deal with the idea of "sin" and "atonement" in the
          fact that NO SIN is worse than any other. That all sins need to be paid
          for and that Christ has already paid for all of them, even Gay ones.

          At the Seminar this weekend, I used the term Ex-Ex-Gay and was free to talk
          about being Free. I was also enabled to talk about fetishes including that I
          spank men and why. I also explained what I meant by being a Daddy and how
          it related to living in the world. I am Free to be ME.

          Daddy Larry Rogers
          dadheniso@...

          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce" <pete.zayonce@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi everyone,
          >
          > I've got three questions which you're welcome to answer, or not. Think
          > carefully about your response to each one, explain where appropriate:
          >
          > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or have
          > previous gay feelings?
          >
          > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that being gay
          > needs to be changed?
          >
          > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
          >
          > There's no pressure to participate, and if you answer, please think about
          > your answers and give honest ones.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Pete
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • nyguy_1225
          Hi Larry: I d be curious to know on what basis you believe you were created by God to be gay. Is this simply your own personal opinion (which would be
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 8, 2006
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            Hi Larry:

            I'd be curious to know on what basis you believe you were "created by
            God to be gay." Is this simply your own personal opinion (which
            would be fine!) or do you have some more concrete basis on which your
            conclusion is founded.

            I am a former ex-gay leader who many years ago now happily and in a
            healthy manner integrated my rich Chsritian faith with my sexuality.
            I would welcome dialog with you on this. Feel free to reach me at
            nyguy_1225@.... I don't always have lots of time, but helping
            others put the pieces together (faith and sexuality) happens to be
            one of my many passions. I'm particualy curious as to why you are
            seemingly so convinced on #1 below.

            -Alex

            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <dadheniso@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Pete and everyone
            >
            > This past weekend I participated in a very valuable and enriching
            Man-to-Man: Sexual
            > Health Seminar put on by the University of Minnesota under the
            direction of B R Simon
            > Rosser, Ph.D. If any of you ever get the chance to attend this
            Seminar which has been
            > going on for over 10 years and is expanding across the USA, I
            encourage you to attend.
            >
            > As to the three Questions, I will be glad to answer them. And I
            welcome anyone who
            > would want to write me privately at dadheniso@... with any
            questions or
            > comments.
            >
            > > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay
            > > or have previous gay feelings?
            > I believe that I was created by God to be gay, just
            like I was
            > created to be right handed. That I have been Gay
            from the
            > moment of my birth.
            >
            > > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that
            > > being gay needs to be changed?
            > For most of my life, I believe God called me
            to "Minister" and
            > therefore I constantly attempted to attend seminary or
            Bible
            > Training to be ordained. While at LMTC at North
            Heights LC
            > in Roseville, MN I was told that I had to give up
            being Gay, I
            > had to become Ex-Gay to be acceptable to God and be in
            the
            > Lay Ministry Training Program. I believed their lies
            and tried
            > but soon became a "Good hypocritical Chrisian?, living
            a dual
            > life.
            >
            > > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
            > Got a couple hours and a few pages? Eight years ago I
            joined a
            > different Lutheran Church and the first service talked
            to the
            > Pastor about becoming a member. I told him that I
            wanted to
            > work with Gays in Ministry. He said "Great, we have
            been wanting
            > to get that ministry going. Are you going to Pride,
            this afternoon?"
            >
            > I had entered a church where Gays were accepted,
            encouraged to
            > be themselves, that sin was done by everyone and
            everyone needed
            > to be forgiven for all kinds of sins. But it was
            normal to be Gay. I
            > became involved in the Reconciled to Christ Movement
            and consider
            > myself still active in it.
            >
            > I am Gay, a homosexual, created by God to be Gay. The
            things I chose
            > to do growing up like playing with dolls, mud pies, and
            attraction to
            > other boys came out of my inner need, it was not forced
            upon me. I
            > choose to be Gay. If sexual orientation was a choice,
            I might try to fix
            > it but my years of being Ex-Gay, proved to myself that
            I was meant to
            > be Gay. The Day I was told I No Longer had to be Ex-
            Gay, the biggest
            > load of pain and suffering fell off of my shoulders.
            >
            > As a Christian, I can deal with the idea of "sin"
            and "atonement" in the
            > fact that NO SIN is worse than any other. That all
            sins need to be paid
            > for and that Christ has already paid for all of them,
            even Gay ones.
            >
            > At the Seminar this weekend, I used the term Ex-Ex-Gay and was free
            to talk
            > about being Free. I was also enabled to talk about fetishes
            including that I
            > spank men and why. I also explained what I meant by being a Daddy
            and how
            > it related to living in the world. I am Free to be ME.
            >
            > Daddy Larry Rogers
            > dadheniso@...
            >
            > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce"
            <pete.zayonce@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi everyone,
            > >
            > > I've got three questions which you're welcome to answer, or not.
            Think
            > > carefully about your response to each one, explain where
            appropriate:
            > >
            > > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay
            or have
            > > previous gay feelings?
            > >
            > > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe
            that being gay
            > > needs to be changed?
            > >
            > > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
            > >
            > > There's no pressure to participate, and if you answer, please
            think about
            > > your answers and give honest ones.
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Pete
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • Jim
            Hi Pete, Those are great questions! Here s my two cents on them. 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or have previous gay
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 9, 2006
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              Hi Pete,

              Those are great questions! Here's my two cents on them.

              1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or have
              previous gay feelings?

              I believe sexual identity to be an inherent human trait. While I
              definitely think that there are many heterosexuals that engage in same-
              gender SEX, and homosexuals who engage in opposite-gender SEX, (and
              there are many reasons why they do), when it comes to inherent sexual
              identity I believe it is a fixed state from conception, like being left
              or right handed, as someone else mentioned. While a right handed person
              may try to use his/her left hand in the same manner as the right hand,
              the person will always be inherently right handed. When such a person
              returns to the natural use of his right hand, he has not become ex-
              lefthanded because he was never lefthanded to begin with.

              While some people believe "God made me straight/gay", I really don't
              think that is Biblically supportable. What seems more likely is
              (biblically speaking), God created Mankind, and genetics, created by
              Him, makes multiple combinations with a variety of results (such as we
              see with hair/eye/skin color, nationalities, left/right handedness,
              etc). I have always found it odd that everyone seems to place sexual
              identity alone as a segregated category that is absolutely fixed
              depending on GENITALS, unlike any other human characterization. If
              God "made me gay", I think it is only in the sense that God created the
              first man and woman with the genetic ability to generate a variety of
              people.

              2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that being
              gay needs to be changed?

              I am probably one of the few people here who never went through the ex-
              gay phase. Most certainly I questioned my sexuality, but only because
              society and religion insists that it is an abnormality, and so I had to
              take an honest assessment of myself to see if they could possibly be
              correct. I never experimented with females "just to be sure"; since I
              believe sexual identity is inherent, I believe a person is gay or
              straight whether they have sex or never have sex; so then, I would not
              have to have sex with a woman to see whether it was the right thing for
              me. But I did carefully and sincerely think about what love, a
              relationship and sex would be like with a female, and I determined
              that, for me, the female as a whole will not compliment nor fulfill me.
              I feel virtually no connection to females, aside from a friendly or
              family relationship. In other words, the idea of a union with a female
              is utterly unnatural to and for me.

              Now, I know that your question included "outside of the Bible", and I
              respect that. But there is something about that which I'd like to
              mention. Many homosexuals do base their ex-gay experience on what they
              perceive, or what they have been taught, the Bible says. As a
              christian, what the Bible says is important to me, so, as part of
              that "honest assessment" that I made of myself, I took a look at what
              the Bible says. I looked at the famous "anti-gay" verse in Leviticus 20
              in both the Hebrew text and in the conservative King James Version with
              open eyes and an open heart, prepared to accept whatever I'd find, and
              realized with shock that it did not say what I had been taught it said.
              What I saw there changed my entire perspective. I took what I found and
              created a little test for my VERY conservative fundamentalist mom to
              see if I was really seeing what I thought I was seeing in that verse.
              I'd like to replicate that test here for you.

              The test consisted simply of two questions. I took a piece of paper and
              wrote the first question on one side and the second question on the
              other side. The first question was this:

              "If a man also writes with his left hand,
              as he writes with his right hand,
              he has committed abomination."
              How would you define this statement:
              A) It is abomination for a righthanded man to also write with his left
              hand.
              OR
              B) It is abomination to be lefthanded.

              After my mom made her selection (she rightly chose A), I instructed her
              to turn the page over and answer the second question, which was this:

              "If a man also lieth with mankind,
              as he lieth with a woman,
              he has committed abomination."
              How would you define this statement:
              A) It is abomination for a man that lies with a woman (a heterosexual)
              to also lie with a man.
              OR
              B) It is abomination to be homosexual.

              After reading and rereading it, she finally had to concede that it was
              identical to the previous question, with only the topic changed, and
              much to her own surprise she chose A again.

              3. What is your current belief about the issue?

              Hetero and homo sexualities are true equal and opposite identities. I
              do not believe sexual majority (i.e. heterosexuality)
              constitutes "correctness", just as I do not believe that the world's
              majority of righthandedness constitutes "correctness".

              In friendship,
              Rev. Jim Cunningham
              King James Bible Ministry
              Host of www.GayChristianSurvivors.com
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