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Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Three questions

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  • Andy Spedden
    Hi Pete, My responses are in bold-print and are inserted into the body of your original message, Andy So ********************** Pete Zayonce
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 30 9:44 AM
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      Hi Pete, My responses are in bold-print and are inserted into the body of your original message, Andy So
      **********************

      Pete Zayonce <pete.zayonce@...> wrote:
      Hi everyone,

      I've got three questions which you're welcome to answer, or not. Think
      carefully about your response to each one, explain where appropriate:

      1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or have
      previous gay feelings?
      ********************
      I don't know. I choose to embrace the mystery.
      ********************
      2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that being gay
      needs to be changed?
      ********************
      In my experience, the Bible itself and Scripture itself has been neutral. What caused me to believe that my gayness had to be changed was others' literalistic, socially-conditioned interpretation of selected passages of Scripture, not the Scripture itself. I have never felt in any way victimised by a book or by its contents.
      ********************
      3. What is your current belief about the issue?
      ********************
      I'll assume you refer to the issue of selected Scripture passages being interpreted to condemn gayness in itself as well as same-sex sexual behaviour, since I've already addressed the issue of causation. Scripture doesn't give much specific guidance regarding gayness or same-sex sexual behaviour. That's why we must look to scriptural guidance regarding relationships: our relationships with ourselves, our relationships with others and with other entities, and our relationship with the Trinity.
      Andy So

      There's no pressure to participate, and if you answer, please think about
      your answers and give honest ones.

      Thanks,

      Pete

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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    • Norm
      These are interesting questions. Hmm. 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or have previous gay feelings? I admit that I do fit
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 31 12:38 AM
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        These are interesting questions. Hmm.

        1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or have
        previous gay feelings?

        I admit that I do fit the classic ex-gay model (absent father, close
        mother). However, I can't say that these characteristics changed me to
        be gay or that I would be straight otherwise. So, I can't identify
        anything that I believe caused me to be gay.

        Not that that I'm totally invested in biological "roots" (genetics,
        prenatal development, etc.) and am completely against environmental
        "roots" (parenting, abuse, etc.). There are valid arguments for nature
        and nuture causes. I guess I really don't believe that identifying the
        "cause" is very important.

        2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that being
        gay needs to be changed?

        This is an unfair question since the Bible is often the basis for
        religious and moral arguments against same-sex behavior. So my
        understanding, at the time I sought change, was that I needed to find
        some way to not have same-sex attractions in order to fulfill my faith
        and relationship with God.

        I don't think my friends and family believed that being gay required
        change because they questioned that someone could 'be gay', but rather
        everyone is created heterosexual.

        3. What is your current belief about the issue?

        I believe that being gay is a natural and God-created variation of
        sexuality.

        Norm!

        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce"
        <pete.zayonce@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi everyone,
        >
        > I've got three questions which you're welcome to answer, or not. Think
        > carefully about your response to each one, explain where appropriate:
        >
        > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or
        have
        > previous gay feelings?
        >
        > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that
        being gay
        > needs to be changed?
        >
        > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
        >
        > There's no pressure to participate, and if you answer, please think
        about
        > your answers and give honest ones.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Pete
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • nyguy_1225
        I just happened to catch this post tonight. What causes homosexuality? We re really still in the stone-age when it comes to answering this question.
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 5, 2006
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          I just happened to catch this post tonight. What "causes"
          homosexuality? We're really still in the stone-age when it comes to
          answering this question. Interestingly, in 2003, to mark the 50th
          anniversary of the discovery of the DNA double helix, the
          magazine "Scientific America" published an interview with James D.
          Watson. Watson was one of the co-discoverers of the DNA double
          helix, and therefore hardly a lightweight in the field of genetic
          science. As part of the duo (James Watson and Francis Crick) who
          proposed the double helix model for the structure of DNA in 1953, he
          is responsible for giving us the molecular model that in many ways
          changed both science and society.

          One of the questions they asked him during the interview was: "If you
          were starting out as a researcher now, what kind of things would you
          study?" Watson said: "I'd be working on something about connections
          between genes and behavior. Some people say they're mystified that
          men can like men, but I say, it's just as mysterious as why men like
          women," implying that even basic heterosexuality involves a key
          genetic element.

          Scientists increasingly are discovering that almost everything in
          life -- including our sexuality -- results from a combination of BOTH
          genetic AND environmental factors. To reduce the "cause" of
          sexuality (hetero- or homo-) to either the nature or nurture argument
          misses the complexity of what we all are. They know now without
          question that even the most basic GENETIC traits require
          ENVIRONMENTAL factors for those genes to ultimately "express"
          themselves. There is a sensitive and multifaceted balance between
          the two that we haven't even begun to crack. Bottom line: What
          causes some people to be gay? The answer is as complex as we are.

          -Alex


          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce"
          <pete.zayonce@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi everyone,
          >
          > I've got three questions which you're welcome to answer, or not.
          Think
          > carefully about your response to each one, explain where
          appropriate:
          >
          > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay
          or have
          > previous gay feelings?
          >
          > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that
          being gay
          > needs to be changed?
          >
          > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
          >
          > There's no pressure to participate, and if you answer, please think
          about
          > your answers and give honest ones.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Pete
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Scott Russell
          Has anyone else seen the recent DVD release Fixing Frank. I saw it on sale at Netflix for $5 or so and it sounded somewhat interesting. It stars Dan
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 6, 2006
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            Has anyone else seen the recent DVD release "Fixing Frank." I saw it on sale at Netflix for $5 or so and it sounded somewhat interesting. It stars Dan Butler, of "Frasier" fame, and other recognizable gay actors.

            Here's the description:

            At the urging of his psychologist boyfriend, Jonathan, investigative reporter Frank sets to work on an exposé of Dr. Arthur Apsey, a therapist known for his controversial work in "curing" homosexuality. Posing as a gay patient who wants to "convert," Frank enlists in a course of treatment -- and soon finds that the sessions stir up unsettling questions and doubts about his sexuality and identity.



            I don't want to comment too much here so that I won't prejudice people's opinions. If you want to comment on it with details about the movie, please preface them with a "SPOILERS" warning.

            Like this...

            SPOILERS! If you haven't seen the movie yet, and want to form your own opinion first, don't read the following:



            I definitely find the movie problematic, but also confusing. What is the point? Is it about the relationship rather than the therapy? Is it a tirade against therapy/therapists in general? There is a director's commentary I should listen to. I'm very curious to know the "back-story" -- what motivated the playwright?

            It's not a bad movie -- the acting is pretty good -- but I'm just not sure what to "make" of it...

            I happened to watch it with Harry Knox of the HRC who was visiting and he thought it was "disturbing." He never went through the ex-gay filter, so it did spur a GREAT conversation between us.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Larry
            Hi Pete and everyone This past weekend I participated in a very valuable and enriching Man-to-Man: Sexual Health Seminar put on by the University of Minnesota
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 6, 2006
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              Hi Pete and everyone

              This past weekend I participated in a very valuable and enriching Man-to-Man: Sexual
              Health Seminar put on by the University of Minnesota under the direction of B R Simon
              Rosser, Ph.D. If any of you ever get the chance to attend this Seminar which has been
              going on for over 10 years and is expanding across the USA, I encourage you to attend.

              As to the three Questions, I will be glad to answer them. And I welcome anyone who
              would want to write me privately at dadheniso@... with any questions or
              comments.

              > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay
              > or have previous gay feelings?
              I believe that I was created by God to be gay, just like I was
              created to be right handed. That I have been Gay from the
              moment of my birth.

              > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that
              > being gay needs to be changed?
              For most of my life, I believe God called me to "Minister" and
              therefore I constantly attempted to attend seminary or Bible
              Training to be ordained. While at LMTC at North Heights LC
              in Roseville, MN I was told that I had to give up being Gay, I
              had to become Ex-Gay to be acceptable to God and be in the
              Lay Ministry Training Program. I believed their lies and tried
              but soon became a "Good hypocritical Chrisian?, living a dual
              life.

              > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
              Got a couple hours and a few pages? Eight years ago I joined a
              different Lutheran Church and the first service talked to the
              Pastor about becoming a member. I told him that I wanted to
              work with Gays in Ministry. He said "Great, we have been wanting
              to get that ministry going. Are you going to Pride, this afternoon?"

              I had entered a church where Gays were accepted, encouraged to
              be themselves, that sin was done by everyone and everyone needed
              to be forgiven for all kinds of sins. But it was normal to be Gay. I
              became involved in the Reconciled to Christ Movement and consider
              myself still active in it.

              I am Gay, a homosexual, created by God to be Gay. The things I chose
              to do growing up like playing with dolls, mud pies, and attraction to
              other boys came out of my inner need, it was not forced upon me. I
              choose to be Gay. If sexual orientation was a choice, I might try to fix
              it but my years of being Ex-Gay, proved to myself that I was meant to
              be Gay. The Day I was told I No Longer had to be Ex-Gay, the biggest
              load of pain and suffering fell off of my shoulders.

              As a Christian, I can deal with the idea of "sin" and "atonement" in the
              fact that NO SIN is worse than any other. That all sins need to be paid
              for and that Christ has already paid for all of them, even Gay ones.

              At the Seminar this weekend, I used the term Ex-Ex-Gay and was free to talk
              about being Free. I was also enabled to talk about fetishes including that I
              spank men and why. I also explained what I meant by being a Daddy and how
              it related to living in the world. I am Free to be ME.

              Daddy Larry Rogers
              dadheniso@...

              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce" <pete.zayonce@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi everyone,
              >
              > I've got three questions which you're welcome to answer, or not. Think
              > carefully about your response to each one, explain where appropriate:
              >
              > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or have
              > previous gay feelings?
              >
              > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that being gay
              > needs to be changed?
              >
              > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
              >
              > There's no pressure to participate, and if you answer, please think about
              > your answers and give honest ones.
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Pete
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • nyguy_1225
              Hi Larry: I d be curious to know on what basis you believe you were created by God to be gay. Is this simply your own personal opinion (which would be
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 8, 2006
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                Hi Larry:

                I'd be curious to know on what basis you believe you were "created by
                God to be gay." Is this simply your own personal opinion (which
                would be fine!) or do you have some more concrete basis on which your
                conclusion is founded.

                I am a former ex-gay leader who many years ago now happily and in a
                healthy manner integrated my rich Chsritian faith with my sexuality.
                I would welcome dialog with you on this. Feel free to reach me at
                nyguy_1225@.... I don't always have lots of time, but helping
                others put the pieces together (faith and sexuality) happens to be
                one of my many passions. I'm particualy curious as to why you are
                seemingly so convinced on #1 below.

                -Alex

                --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <dadheniso@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Pete and everyone
                >
                > This past weekend I participated in a very valuable and enriching
                Man-to-Man: Sexual
                > Health Seminar put on by the University of Minnesota under the
                direction of B R Simon
                > Rosser, Ph.D. If any of you ever get the chance to attend this
                Seminar which has been
                > going on for over 10 years and is expanding across the USA, I
                encourage you to attend.
                >
                > As to the three Questions, I will be glad to answer them. And I
                welcome anyone who
                > would want to write me privately at dadheniso@... with any
                questions or
                > comments.
                >
                > > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay
                > > or have previous gay feelings?
                > I believe that I was created by God to be gay, just
                like I was
                > created to be right handed. That I have been Gay
                from the
                > moment of my birth.
                >
                > > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that
                > > being gay needs to be changed?
                > For most of my life, I believe God called me
                to "Minister" and
                > therefore I constantly attempted to attend seminary or
                Bible
                > Training to be ordained. While at LMTC at North
                Heights LC
                > in Roseville, MN I was told that I had to give up
                being Gay, I
                > had to become Ex-Gay to be acceptable to God and be in
                the
                > Lay Ministry Training Program. I believed their lies
                and tried
                > but soon became a "Good hypocritical Chrisian?, living
                a dual
                > life.
                >
                > > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
                > Got a couple hours and a few pages? Eight years ago I
                joined a
                > different Lutheran Church and the first service talked
                to the
                > Pastor about becoming a member. I told him that I
                wanted to
                > work with Gays in Ministry. He said "Great, we have
                been wanting
                > to get that ministry going. Are you going to Pride,
                this afternoon?"
                >
                > I had entered a church where Gays were accepted,
                encouraged to
                > be themselves, that sin was done by everyone and
                everyone needed
                > to be forgiven for all kinds of sins. But it was
                normal to be Gay. I
                > became involved in the Reconciled to Christ Movement
                and consider
                > myself still active in it.
                >
                > I am Gay, a homosexual, created by God to be Gay. The
                things I chose
                > to do growing up like playing with dolls, mud pies, and
                attraction to
                > other boys came out of my inner need, it was not forced
                upon me. I
                > choose to be Gay. If sexual orientation was a choice,
                I might try to fix
                > it but my years of being Ex-Gay, proved to myself that
                I was meant to
                > be Gay. The Day I was told I No Longer had to be Ex-
                Gay, the biggest
                > load of pain and suffering fell off of my shoulders.
                >
                > As a Christian, I can deal with the idea of "sin"
                and "atonement" in the
                > fact that NO SIN is worse than any other. That all
                sins need to be paid
                > for and that Christ has already paid for all of them,
                even Gay ones.
                >
                > At the Seminar this weekend, I used the term Ex-Ex-Gay and was free
                to talk
                > about being Free. I was also enabled to talk about fetishes
                including that I
                > spank men and why. I also explained what I meant by being a Daddy
                and how
                > it related to living in the world. I am Free to be ME.
                >
                > Daddy Larry Rogers
                > dadheniso@...
                >
                > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce"
                <pete.zayonce@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi everyone,
                > >
                > > I've got three questions which you're welcome to answer, or not.
                Think
                > > carefully about your response to each one, explain where
                appropriate:
                > >
                > > 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay
                or have
                > > previous gay feelings?
                > >
                > > 2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe
                that being gay
                > > needs to be changed?
                > >
                > > 3. What is your current belief about the issue?
                > >
                > > There's no pressure to participate, and if you answer, please
                think about
                > > your answers and give honest ones.
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > >
                > > Pete
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • Jim
                Hi Pete, Those are great questions! Here s my two cents on them. 1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or have previous gay
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 9, 2006
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                  Hi Pete,

                  Those are great questions! Here's my two cents on them.

                  1. What (if anything) do you believe caused you currently be gay or have
                  previous gay feelings?

                  I believe sexual identity to be an inherent human trait. While I
                  definitely think that there are many heterosexuals that engage in same-
                  gender SEX, and homosexuals who engage in opposite-gender SEX, (and
                  there are many reasons why they do), when it comes to inherent sexual
                  identity I believe it is a fixed state from conception, like being left
                  or right handed, as someone else mentioned. While a right handed person
                  may try to use his/her left hand in the same manner as the right hand,
                  the person will always be inherently right handed. When such a person
                  returns to the natural use of his right hand, he has not become ex-
                  lefthanded because he was never lefthanded to begin with.

                  While some people believe "God made me straight/gay", I really don't
                  think that is Biblically supportable. What seems more likely is
                  (biblically speaking), God created Mankind, and genetics, created by
                  Him, makes multiple combinations with a variety of results (such as we
                  see with hair/eye/skin color, nationalities, left/right handedness,
                  etc). I have always found it odd that everyone seems to place sexual
                  identity alone as a segregated category that is absolutely fixed
                  depending on GENITALS, unlike any other human characterization. If
                  God "made me gay", I think it is only in the sense that God created the
                  first man and woman with the genetic ability to generate a variety of
                  people.

                  2. What/who (other than the bible) has caused you to believe that being
                  gay needs to be changed?

                  I am probably one of the few people here who never went through the ex-
                  gay phase. Most certainly I questioned my sexuality, but only because
                  society and religion insists that it is an abnormality, and so I had to
                  take an honest assessment of myself to see if they could possibly be
                  correct. I never experimented with females "just to be sure"; since I
                  believe sexual identity is inherent, I believe a person is gay or
                  straight whether they have sex or never have sex; so then, I would not
                  have to have sex with a woman to see whether it was the right thing for
                  me. But I did carefully and sincerely think about what love, a
                  relationship and sex would be like with a female, and I determined
                  that, for me, the female as a whole will not compliment nor fulfill me.
                  I feel virtually no connection to females, aside from a friendly or
                  family relationship. In other words, the idea of a union with a female
                  is utterly unnatural to and for me.

                  Now, I know that your question included "outside of the Bible", and I
                  respect that. But there is something about that which I'd like to
                  mention. Many homosexuals do base their ex-gay experience on what they
                  perceive, or what they have been taught, the Bible says. As a
                  christian, what the Bible says is important to me, so, as part of
                  that "honest assessment" that I made of myself, I took a look at what
                  the Bible says. I looked at the famous "anti-gay" verse in Leviticus 20
                  in both the Hebrew text and in the conservative King James Version with
                  open eyes and an open heart, prepared to accept whatever I'd find, and
                  realized with shock that it did not say what I had been taught it said.
                  What I saw there changed my entire perspective. I took what I found and
                  created a little test for my VERY conservative fundamentalist mom to
                  see if I was really seeing what I thought I was seeing in that verse.
                  I'd like to replicate that test here for you.

                  The test consisted simply of two questions. I took a piece of paper and
                  wrote the first question on one side and the second question on the
                  other side. The first question was this:

                  "If a man also writes with his left hand,
                  as he writes with his right hand,
                  he has committed abomination."
                  How would you define this statement:
                  A) It is abomination for a righthanded man to also write with his left
                  hand.
                  OR
                  B) It is abomination to be lefthanded.

                  After my mom made her selection (she rightly chose A), I instructed her
                  to turn the page over and answer the second question, which was this:

                  "If a man also lieth with mankind,
                  as he lieth with a woman,
                  he has committed abomination."
                  How would you define this statement:
                  A) It is abomination for a man that lies with a woman (a heterosexual)
                  to also lie with a man.
                  OR
                  B) It is abomination to be homosexual.

                  After reading and rereading it, she finally had to concede that it was
                  identical to the previous question, with only the topic changed, and
                  much to her own surprise she chose A again.

                  3. What is your current belief about the issue?

                  Hetero and homo sexualities are true equal and opposite identities. I
                  do not believe sexual majority (i.e. heterosexuality)
                  constitutes "correctness", just as I do not believe that the world's
                  majority of righthandedness constitutes "correctness".

                  In friendship,
                  Rev. Jim Cunningham
                  King James Bible Ministry
                  Host of www.GayChristianSurvivors.com
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