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Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: a negative aspect of same sex attraction which doesn't come from outside

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  • Scott Russell
    Well put, Mike! Yes, this is all part of queer theory. Many people have written about the ways gays (more so than lesbians) can eat each other alive --
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 30, 2005
      Well put, Mike!

      Yes, this is all part of "queer theory." Many people have written about the ways gays (more so than lesbians) can "eat each other alive" -- and not in the good sense! ; )

      I'm taking a class at my university this semester on Gay and Lesbian Lit. We have just finished two novels -- Andrew Holleran's "Dancer from the Dance" and Rita Mae Brown's "Ruby Fruit Jungle."

      "Dancer" is the story of a group of "circuit boys" in NYC in the late 70's, just before the specter AIDS arrived on the scene. It describes the lonely and achingly desperate lifestyle so many gay men lead looking for their next high or sexual experience, with some tragic consequences. The book has been described as the "queer Great Gatsby" and is still considered a very important book in the development of current gay literature. There are some amazing quotes and scenes. Near the end, when one of the circuit boiz is getting to old for "the scene" he notices a very young man who has just entered it. He has an "epiphany": "They danced together as if they were falling in love, but...they faced each other at the opposite ends of an illusion." The book is not a celebration of the shallow, "club scene," but it also isn't a condemnation of it either, just a snapshot. Another good quote: The vast majority of homosexuals are looking for a superman to love and find it very difficult
      to love anyone merely human, which we all unfortunately happen to be. A circuit queen, who has some of the best lines, remarks, "We are not doomed because we are homosexual, my dear, we are doomed only if we live in despair because of it." The narrator, by the end, realizes that there are "more homosexuals" than those he encountered in the party scene -- there are gay men and lesbians seeking to live out "normal" lives away from the clubs. It can be a sad and sobering book, but I think it also gives us a decent mirror in which to see both the masquerade of self-loathing that so much gay culture represents, but also to see the hopefulness of a community of gays and lesbians who refuse to live like that. Finding such a community, then, is the key. I haven't found it yet, myself, but I know i'm closer -- like Dorothy on her way to the Emerald City. God speed!

      I haven't finished "Rubyfruit Jungle" yet, but it is quite a different book. It tells the story of a young woman, Molly, who is coming to terms with her sexual identity, but refusing to be categorized by the lesbian establishment that she finds already exists. In many ways Molly tries to become her "own kind" of lesbian and defies convention. It's a much funnier and more hopeful book of self-identity and liberation.

      Another writer who may interest you is David Sedaris, who when he is not being hysterically funny, has some profound thoughts to share about the gay experience. In his coming-out essay, "I Like Guys" (found in his book "Naked") David describes his experience of being gay in middle-school in the south. It was like, he says, being "members of a secret society founded on self-loathing. When a teacher made fun of a real homosexual, I made certain my laugh was louder than anyone else's. When a club member's clothing was thrown into the locker-room toilet, I was always the first to cheer. When it was my clothing, I watched as the faces of my fellow club members broke into recognizable expressions of relief."

      There is a lot of this that goes on, in my estimation, in the bar scene -- everyone trying to objectify and judge everyone else before it can be done to them in return. I've had some good times at bars, but I usually don't stay long, nor is it my primary source of socializing with other gay men. I actually belong to a gay dinner group and a gay book club. My church also has functions directed at gay members.

      Anywho, that's it from the literary desk this week.

      Anyone have any other books work mentioning.

      I haven't even started talking about movies that are helpful, but I first like to encourage people to actually READ A DAMN BOOK for a change!!!! : )

      Peace,
      Scott





      beltwaymike <editor@...> wrote:
      ccpr76,

      There is no one gay scene; it sounds as though you have focused solely
      on a "singles scene," not a "gay scene." Loneliness and dysfunction
      are not hard to find among both the gay singles and hetero singles
      scenes.

      Finding potential relationships is tough for gay people, because there
      are so few of us and because we're not easy to identify in a crowd.
      But that general, nonsexual crowd is often where solid romantic
      relationships evolve. People happen to meet over shared interests and
      hobbies, not sex. They come to know each other, and things click. Have
      you sought out friendships in ordinary settings -- sports groups?
      church/synagogue? book clubs? video game teams? What are your hobbies?
      Have you sought out friends who share your interests, or have you
      sought out people just because they call themselves gay?

      If you're tired of self-centered people, then there are some simple
      steps to take.

      1. If you find that those around you are self-centered, don't hang out
      there. Skip the bars and singles chat rooms, for example -- they cater
      to lonely individuals (gay and straight) with almost nothing in common.

      2. Beware of your own potential self-centered tendencies when you
      judge someone else.

      Sometimes there will be a situation where Person A decides that Person
      B is self-centered, not because B is really selfish, but because B
      didn't focus primarily on meeting A's needs.

      Other times, B talks about his interests not because he's not
      interested in A's interests and wellbeing, but because A is really shy
      and not disclosing or sharing his own interests.

      Sure, there are some self-centered men, too. If you think it is the
      "gay" rather than the "man" that is self-centered, then I encourage
      you to talk with women about all the selfish men that they've dated. I
      have suffered through many conversations with women eager to share
      their stories about selfish heterosexual men. (And I have found that
      some of the women were selfish, also.)

      But many women eventually find unselfish men, and so could you, if you
      want to. I'm just not certain whether you really want or need to. Why
      would you look for gay friends or relationships if you can have
      heterosexual ones?

      Whichever way you go, here's my advice:

      Instead of looking for people on the basis of sexual orientation, or
      in the "singles" scene, I'd recommend meeting ordinary people in a
      variety of ordinary settings that interest you, based on your hobbies.
      Meet people because they are people, not because they are gay. If some
      of your friends eventually turn out to be gay, so much the better --
      you'll already have built a friendship based on complementary
      interests and trust.

      Don't make such a big deal out of your sexual attraction/orientation.
      And don't waste time on the singles "scene." Whether someone is gay or
      straight, the trick to not being lonely is to find ways to be yourself
      and to socialize normally while going about activities that interest you.

      --Mike







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    • Scott Russell
      Well put, Mike! Yes, this is all part of queer theory. Many people have written about the ways gays (more so than lesbians) can eat each other alive --
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 30, 2005
        Well put, Mike!

        Yes, this is all part of "queer theory." Many people have written about the ways gays (more so than lesbians) can "eat each other alive" -- and not in the good sense! ; )

        I'm taking a class at my university this semester on Gay and Lesbian Lit. We have just finished two novels -- Andrew Holleran's "Dancer from the Dance" and Rita Mae Brown's "Ruby Fruit Jungle."

        "Dancer" is the story of a group of "circuit boys" in NYC in the late 70's, just before the specter AIDS arrived on the scene. It describes the lonely and achingly desperate lifestyle so many gay men lead looking for their next high or sexual experience, with some tragic consequences. The book has been described as the "queer Great Gatsby" and is still considered a very important book in the development of current gay literature. There are some amazing quotes and scenes. Near the end, when one of the circuit boiz is getting to old for "the scene" he notices a very young man who has just entered it. He has an "epiphany": "They danced together as if they were falling in love, but...they faced each other at the opposite ends of an illusion." The book is not a celebration of the shallow, "club scene," but it also isn't a condemnation of it either, just a snapshot. Another good quote: The vast majority of homosexuals are looking for a superman to love and find it very difficult
        to love anyone merely human, which we all unfortunately happen to be. A circuit queen, who has some of the best lines, remarks, "We are not doomed because we are homosexual, my dear, we are doomed only if we live in despair because of it." The narrator, by the end, realizes that there are "more homosexuals" than those he encountered in the party scene -- there are gay men and lesbians seeking to live out "normal" lives away from the clubs. It can be a sad and sobering book, but I think it also gives us a decent mirror in which to see both the masquerade of self-loathing that so much gay culture represents, but also to see the hopefulness of a community of gays and lesbians who refuse to live like that. Finding such a community, then, is the key. I haven't found it yet, myself, but I know i'm closer -- like Dorothy on her way to the Emerald City. God speed!

        I haven't finished "Rubyfruit Jungle" yet, but it is quite a different book. It tells the story of a young woman, Molly, who is coming to terms with her sexual identity, but refusing to be categorized by the lesbian establishment that she finds already exists. In many ways Molly tries to become her "own kind" of lesbian and defies convention. It's a much funnier and more hopeful book of self-identity and liberation.

        Another writer who may interest you is David Sedaris, who when he is not being hysterically funny, has some profound thoughts to share about the gay experience. In his coming-out essay, "I Like Guys" (found in his book "Naked") David describes his experience of being gay in middle-school in the south. It was like, he says, being "members of a secret society founded on self-loathing. When a teacher made fun of a real homosexual, I made certain my laugh was louder than anyone else's. When a club member's clothing was thrown into the locker-room toilet, I was always the first to cheer. When it was my clothing, I watched as the faces of my fellow club members broke into recognizable expressions of relief."

        There is a lot of this that goes on, in my estimation, in the bar scene -- everyone trying to objectify and judge everyone else before it can be done to them in return. I've had some good times at bars, but I usually don't stay long, nor is it my primary source of socializing with other gay men. I actually belong to a gay dinner group and a gay book club. My church also has functions directed at gay members.

        Anywho, that's it from the literary desk this week.

        Anyone have any other books work mentioning.

        I haven't even started talking about movies that are helpful, but I first like to encourage people to actually READ A DAMN BOOK for a change!!!! : )

        Peace,
        Scott








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert RigbyJr
        You are looking in the wrong places. My life is filled with gay lesbian and trans friends who don t play games with me, but love me and fill my life. Try a
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 30, 2005
          You are looking in the wrong places. My life is filled with gay lesbian and trans friends who don't play games with me, but love me and fill my life. Try a sports club, or an activist group, or a religious group, or a social group, or a charity group, a social service organization, or somthing like that. I don't know where you live, but here in DC we have a vibrant community focused on shared interests and friendships (as well as social service and political activism) that is about much more than the scene. Spend some time on line looking, and I bet you'll find something in your area.

          Robert

          ccpr76 <ccpr76@...> wrote:
          As said in previous posts, I have both same sex and opposite sex
          attraction. My same sex attraction is probably stronger.

          One thing which makes me feel at odds with my same sex attraction is
          NOT friends, NOT family, NOT religion, NOT society. In fact, all my
          friends and family have been very supportive towards me.

          The thing which made me pursue reparative therapy is the gay scene
          itself. It seems to be a sad lonely place full of self-centered people
          who want nothing more than to play stupid sick games with your mind.
          Originally, I thought I was simply looking in the wrong places but it
          seems to be the same everywhere. Even a gay affirmative group admitted
          the scene was like this.

          How does one resolve this?










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        • Christine
          I absolutely agree with what Mike has to say. It might be different for guys, I don t know. But I have gotten involved with a women s group through our local
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 30, 2005
            I absolutely agree with what Mike has to say.

            It might be different for guys, I don't know. But I have gotten
            involved with a women's group through our local GLBT center and have
            made some great friends. I don't drink, and neither do a few of the
            folks I hang with. It's been nice to meet other people and discover
            common interests outside bars and so on.

            There's also gay sierra club type groups, gay hiking groups, things
            like that. Obviously if you aren't in a metro area like me, it will be
            more difficult.

            But I'm loving the people I'm meeting in the gay community here in the
            Denver area. I also get together with some folks from
            www.gaychristian.net and that is fun. We have recently gotten together
            to watch the "Fish Can't Fly" documentary, which we followed up with a
            really great discussion.

            Don't fall into the trap that many ex-gay ministries (or ex-gays) fall
            into, where they bad-mouth the whole gay community based on their
            personal (and often limited) experiences.

            Good luck finding some (real) friends with common interests....
          • Jayelle Wiggins
            I just add that if you have a strong sense of yourself and what you re interested in, people who are also interested in those things, of all sexualities, will
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 1, 2005
              I just add that if you have a strong sense of yourself and what you're interested in, people who are also interested in those things, of all sexualities, will come to you. I am also bi; I have met bi and gay friends in groups that are not specifically bi or gay just by being my own self. People at work, people who also love to swim and surf, people who also love animals, people who love Sinead O'Connor and hip-hop music as much as I do. It may help to look not for "other gay people" or "other bi people," but "people I enjoy being with" and "things that I enjoy doing." Shoot, maybe one of those straight friends could have a gay friend or brother they'd like to fix up or something, you never know!!!

              Blessed be,
              Jayelle

              Robert RigbyJr <rrigbyjr@...> wrote:
              You are looking in the wrong places. My life is filled with gay lesbian and trans friends who don't play games with me, but love me and fill my life. Try a sports club, or an activist group, or a religious group, or a social group, or a charity group, a social service organization, or somthing like that. I don't know where you live, but here in DC we have a vibrant community focused on shared interests and friendships (as well as social service and political activism) that is about much more than the scene. Spend some time on line looking, and I bet you'll find something in your area.

              Robert

              ccpr76 <ccpr76@...> wrote:
              As said in previous posts, I have both same sex and opposite sex
              attraction. My same sex attraction is probably stronger.

              One thing which makes me feel at odds with my same sex attraction is
              NOT friends, NOT family, NOT religion, NOT society. In fact, all my
              friends and family have been very supportive towards me.

              The thing which made me pursue reparative therapy is the gay scene
              itself. It seems to be a sad lonely place full of self-centered people
              who want nothing more than to play stupid sick games with your mind.
              Originally, I thought I was simply looking in the wrong places but it
              seems to be the same everywhere. Even a gay affirmative group admitted
              the scene was like this.

              How does one resolve this?

              "If I were God, I would be suing a lot of people for libel."--Sinead O'Connor

              http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch - political
              http://crackerlilo.blogspot.com - personal


























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