Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [ExExGayMinistry] Accidentally made my cousin question

Expand Messages
  • Jayelle Wiggins
    I used to say that when the conflict between sexuality and religion came up, I went with sexuality. To a degree, that s true, but I think I d have had to
    Message 1 of 9 , May 26, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      I used to say that when the conflict between sexuality and religion came up, I went with sexuality. To a degree, that's true, but I think I'd have had to break out of conservative Evangelical Christianity eventually. I always asked too many questions...I was too socially libertarian...I didn't think my Goth friends needed to dress in bright colors in order to be saved...I didn't think I had to give up hip-hop and secular music and teen magazines for Jesus. My realization that my sexuality was unwelcome in the church and my falling head over heels (ass over teakettle!) for another girl, then, was a mere catalyst. I basically didn't know any other way to be spiritual than to be Evangelical. (I didn't realize that the magickal practices some of my relatives practiced *were* spirituality at that time.) I am hoping that I can at least show my cousin that there is a multitude of choices.

      Blessed be,
      Jayelle

      Anthony Venn-Brown - Personal Coach <avb@...> wrote:
      Thanks for sharing Alan...you have every right to share your beliefs with
      us. We can see you are not out to convert..just sharing your experience.



      I spoke last week at a group about resolving the faith/sexuality conflict. I
      suggested there were 5 options.



      1. Reject your previous belief system
      2. Put it on hold. That's what I had to do for 6 years
      3. Redefine your belief system in order to deal with the dissonance.
      That's what I've done.
      4. Suspend your current belief system in order to be open to new
      learning possibilities. This one really helped me.
      5. Hold several beliefs at once. We have been conditioned to think
      there is only one truth...but not necessarily.what maybe true for one is not
      true for another. Hence the term 'finding your truth'



      Hope this helps

      "No American, no human being, should have to give up her or his difference in order to be treated equally under the law."--Evan Wolfson, Why Marriage Matters

      http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch





















      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Legal Alien
      Thanks Jayelle for the response - it sounds like the Evangelical christianity that you experienced was more about dos and donts than about following jesus.
      Message 2 of 9 , May 26, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Thanks Jayelle for the response - it sounds like the "Evangelical" christianity that you experienced was more about dos and donts than about following jesus. Its a shame that this happens.

        Alan


        ========================================
        Message date : May 26 2005, 08:54 PM
        From : "Jayelle Wiggins" <jayelle3@...>
        To : exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
        Copy to :
        Subject : RE: [ExExGayMinistry] Accidentally made my cousin question

        I used to say that when the conflict between sexuality and religion came up, I went with sexuality. To a degree, that's true, but I think I'd have had to break out of conservative Evangelical Christianity eventually. I always asked too many questions...I was too socially libertarian...I didn't think my Goth friends needed to dress in bright colors in order to be saved...I didn't think I had to give up hip-hop and secular music and teen magazines for Jesus. My realization that my sexuality was unwelcome in the church and my falling head over heels (ass over teakettle!) for another girl, then, was a mere catalyst. I basically didn't know any other way to be spiritual than to be Evangelical. (I didn't realize that the magickal practices some of my relatives practiced *were* spirituality at that time.) I am hoping that I can at least show my cousin that there is a multitude of choices.

        Blessed be,
        Jayelle

        Anthony Venn-Brown - Personal Coach <avb@...> wrote:
        Thanks for sharing Alan...you have every right to share your beliefs with
        us. We can see you are not out to convert..just sharing your experience.



        I spoke last week at a group about resolving the faith/sexuality conflict. I
        suggested there were 5 options.



        1. Reject your previous belief system
        2. Put it on hold. That's what I had to do for 6 years
        3. Redefine your belief system in order to deal with the dissonance.
        That's what I've done.
        4. Suspend your current belief system in order to be open to new
        learning possibilities. This one really helped me.
        5. Hold several beliefs at once. We have been conditioned to think
        there is only one truth...but not necessarily.what maybe true for one is not
        true for another. Hence the term 'finding your truth'



        Hope this helps

        "No American, no human being, should have to give up her or his difference in order to be treated equally under the law."--Evan Wolfson, Why Marriage Matters

        http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch





















        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        Yahoo! Groups Links









        --

        Whatever you Wanadoo:
        http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/

        This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
      • Jayelle Wiggins
        I have to say that when I first left the church (about 10 years ago), I felt sorry for any LGBT person who tried to do anything with it. Then I realized that
        Message 3 of 9 , May 28, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          I have to say that when I first left the church (about
          10 years ago), I felt sorry for any LGBT person who
          tried to do anything with it. Then I realized that
          Christianity is not as stark as what the leaders I'd
          grown up with wanted me to think, and that it was very
          big and flexible. I'm still Pagan, but that's because
          I ran to it out of an attraction to it--I did not run
          *away from* Christianity. (I did, however, gratefully
          return to sleeping in on Sundays and being sure to be
          home for NASCAR!) I'm glad that there is another
          choice besides "sexuality" and "spirituality"; I'm
          glad that people can choose both.

          Blessed be,
          Jayelle

          --- Legal Alien <legalAlienInDC@...> wrote:
          > Jayelle's email has prompted me to pose a question
          > I've been thinking about for a while. It seems that
          > a lot of gay christian men and women in an effort to
          > resolve the conflict with being gay and being in a
          > "fundamentalist" environment drop their faith.
          > Certainly most of the regular contributors to these
          > groups seem to be in this position.
          >
          > I can perfectly understand why you might not want to
          > be involved with people that are inadvisedly bigoted
          > and condemn you without thinking. I can also see
          > why if you attribute that behaviour to the
          > "religion", then you might also want to drop the
          > religion. However, it begs the question of what the
          > faith was in originally and upon what was it based.
          >
          > My faith is in Jesus Christ as a personal saviour
          > (yes I know this is the "fundie" position, but that
          > doesnt necessarily make it wrong). I became a
          > Christian when I was 19 and based my decision upon
          > the testimony of people's lives and some research
          > into evidence for the actual existence of Jesus as
          > an historical figure and at least some of the events
          > around this (there is a book, "The Case for Christ",
          > by Lee Stroebbels(?), which puts this evidence - yes
          > again Lee is a conservative, but that doesnt
          > necessarily discount what he says).
          >
          > I'm not trying to evangelise, but I do find it
          > intriguing that it seems as though anyone that still
          > maintains a faith should be pitied almost. There is
          > a lot of garbage and baggage with a lot of churches
          > and many of us seem to have been hurt quite badly,
          > but I dont think that means our faith in Jesus is
          > invalid.
          >
          > Open to all for comment.
          >
          > Alan


          "No American, no human being, should have to give up her or his difference in order to be treated equally under the law."--Evan Wolfson, Why Marriage Matters

          http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch
























          __________________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site
          http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
        • Jayelle Wiggins
          I am very proud of him. I realized that the situation may not be all that dire--his mother is a fire-breather, but his father, our uncle, hired my apatheist
          Message 4 of 9 , May 28, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            I am very proud of him. I realized that the situation
            may not be all that dire--his mother is a
            fire-breather, but his father, our uncle, hired my
            "apatheist" kid brother and thinks he's a good man and
            a good influence for our cousin. And they have let me
            babysit him knowing what I am, and let my wife talk to
            him and develop a friendship with him knowing what she
            is. They shelter him in many ways, but at least they
            leave the door open a crack for his family.

            I realized also that I articulated my real fear in a
            "joke" to a friend: "Oh, I think *he's* mature
            enough. Whether his parents are is another matter
            altogether."

            I am the oldest of "the Cousins" by seven years, and
            my brother was the next. We are almost like his
            youngest, coolest (we hope) aunt and uncle to him. I
            feel a great sense of responsibility because of that.
            In many ways, I have opened doors for all the younger
            cousins. I'm proud of it, but I have been accused of
            corrupting them and being a bad influence. (At
            Thanksgiving, for example, we were dancing in the
            basement before dinner, and another aunt ranted and
            raved because I'd exposed her precious darlings, who
            are 20, 18, and 16 now and not all that innocent, to
            same-sex dancing and hip-hop, even though it was one
            of their CDs.) The 12-year-old is very sensitive, and
            it would hurt me to be any part of his hurt, you know?

            But he is a smart and insightful kid, so the next time
            I talk to him, I believe I will say something like, "I
            want to be someone you can talk to about this kind of
            stuff. It's just that I love you and your brother and
            your parents, so I hate the idea of causing trouble
            for you. But I know you came up with ideas they
            disagree with all by yourself, so I know I'm not
            causing trouble. I'm going to share my ideas with you
            and I want to hear yours, but I hope you question my
            ideas, too, and come up with your own conclusions."

            I can't conclude without saying that I love your
            statement about God being big enough to handle his
            questions, and will pass that one on to him, too. :-)
            That's one of my big problems with the AoG
            church--they make God so *small*!

            Blessed be,
            Jayelle

            --- Micah Royal <micah_royal@...> wrote:

            > Wow. He sounds like a smart and insightful kid.
            >
            > If he is, letting him know what you think, in
            > language he can understand, and telling him he has
            > to decide for himself what he believes about God,
            > heaven, hell, might be fair. That sounds like what
            > you did.
            >
            > I wouldn't be too scared for him about his faith.
            > Kids have alot more insight about life, faith,
            > spirituality, and the world than we often give them
            > credit for. I can remember asking similar questions
            > at his age -- and having similar insights.
            >
            > Actually (and I speak as someone who does believe in
            > heaven and hell), there's alot of insight in the
            > idea he has. Even for me, most people's ideas or
            > pictures of heaven and hell are ludicrous and do
            > sound like people are just making things up as they
            > go along. And some of them are, come down to it.
            > As if God is picking his special good little boys
            > and girls and floating them off in the sky while
            > putting bad folks on skewers or ... various
            > simplistic pictures of things. For me, heaven and
            > hell are ways of talking about being close to God or
            > being distant from God -- entering eternity as one
            > choosing to befriend and befriended by God or
            > entering eternity choosing to fight God tooth &
            > nail. For me, they are metaphors... but, whomever
            > is right, I respect the kid's intelligence to see
            > that things aren't so simple as some folks paint
            > them out to be.
            >
            > Since I believe deeply in God, if he has faith
            > struggles about things ever down the road, I'd
            > encourage him that if there is a God, that God is
            > big enough to deal with any questions he has. If
            > God is real, after all, He or She really is going to
            > be smart enough to have answers and have made us
            > with the propensity to ask questions like he is
            > asking for a reason. In Christian theology, that's
            > called loving God with your whole mind, not just
            > your heart and strength.
            >
            > Anywhoze, enough rambling. He sounds like a really
            > great guy. I think you should be proud of him.
            > --Micah
            >

            "No American, no human being, should have to give up her or his difference in order to be treated equally under the law."--Evan Wolfson, Why Marriage Matters

            http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch
























            __________________________________
            Yahoo! Mail Mobile
            Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
            http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
          • Micah Royal
            That sounds like a good approach. He probably needs somebody like you in his life. Let me know how it goes! Micah Jayelle Wiggins wrote:
            Message 5 of 9 , May 28, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              That sounds like a good approach. He probably needs somebody like you in his life. Let me know how it goes!
              Micah

              Jayelle Wiggins <jayelle3@...> wrote:
              I am very proud of him. I realized that the situation
              may not be all that dire--his mother is a
              fire-breather, but his father, our uncle, hired my
              "apatheist" kid brother and thinks he's a good man and
              a good influence for our cousin. And they have let me
              babysit him knowing what I am, and let my wife talk to
              him and develop a friendship with him knowing what she
              is. They shelter him in many ways, but at least they
              leave the door open a crack for his family.

              I realized also that I articulated my real fear in a
              "joke" to a friend: "Oh, I think *he's* mature
              enough. Whether his parents are is another matter
              altogether."

              I am the oldest of "the Cousins" by seven years, and
              my brother was the next. We are almost like his
              youngest, coolest (we hope) aunt and uncle to him. I
              feel a great sense of responsibility because of that.
              In many ways, I have opened doors for all the younger
              cousins. I'm proud of it, but I have been accused of
              corrupting them and being a bad influence. (At
              Thanksgiving, for example, we were dancing in the
              basement before dinner, and another aunt ranted and
              raved because I'd exposed her precious darlings, who
              are 20, 18, and 16 now and not all that innocent, to
              same-sex dancing and hip-hop, even though it was one
              of their CDs.) The 12-year-old is very sensitive, and
              it would hurt me to be any part of his hurt, you know?

              But he is a smart and insightful kid, so the next time
              I talk to him, I believe I will say something like, "I
              want to be someone you can talk to about this kind of
              stuff. It's just that I love you and your brother and
              your parents, so I hate the idea of causing trouble
              for you. But I know you came up with ideas they
              disagree with all by yourself, so I know I'm not
              causing trouble. I'm going to share my ideas with you
              and I want to hear yours, but I hope you question my
              ideas, too, and come up with your own conclusions."

              I can't conclude without saying that I love your
              statement about God being big enough to handle his
              questions, and will pass that one on to him, too. :-)
              That's one of my big problems with the AoG
              church--they make God so *small*!

              Blessed be,
              Jayelle

              --- Micah Royal wrote:

              > Wow. He sounds like a smart and insightful kid.
              >
              > If he is, letting him know what you think, in
              > language he can understand, and telling him he has
              > to decide for himself what he believes about God,
              > heaven, hell, might be fair. That sounds like what
              > you did.
              >
              > I wouldn't be too scared for him about his faith.
              > Kids have alot more insight about life, faith,
              > spirituality, and the world than we often give them
              > credit for. I can remember asking similar questions
              > at his age -- and having similar insights.
              >
              > Actually (and I speak as someone who does believe in
              > heaven and hell), there's alot of insight in the
              > idea he has. Even for me, most people's ideas or
              > pictures of heaven and hell are ludicrous and do
              > sound like people are just making things up as they
              > go along. And some of them are, come down to it.
              > As if God is picking his special good little boys
              > and girls and floating them off in the sky while
              > putting bad folks on skewers or ... various
              > simplistic pictures of things. For me, heaven and
              > hell are ways of talking about being close to God or
              > being distant from God -- entering eternity as one
              > choosing to befriend and befriended by God or
              > entering eternity choosing to fight God tooth &
              > nail. For me, they are metaphors... but, whomever
              > is right, I respect the kid's intelligence to see
              > that things aren't so simple as some folks paint
              > them out to be.
              >
              > Since I believe deeply in God, if he has faith
              > struggles about things ever down the road, I'd
              > encourage him that if there is a God, that God is
              > big enough to deal with any questions he has. If
              > God is real, after all, He or She really is going to
              > be smart enough to have answers and have made us
              > with the propensity to ask questions like he is
              > asking for a reason. In Christian theology, that's
              > called loving God with your whole mind, not just
              > your heart and strength.
              >
              > Anywhoze, enough rambling. He sounds like a really
              > great guy. I think you should be proud of him.
              > --Micah
              >

              "No American, no human being, should have to give up her or his difference in order to be treated equally under the law."--Evan Wolfson, Why Marriage Matters

              http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch
























              __________________________________
              Yahoo! Mail Mobile
              Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
              http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail




              Yahoo! Groups Links








              ---------------------------------
              Yahoo! Mail
              Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.