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Re: [ExExGayMinistry] My schizophrenia

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  • Dannyzahalfangel@aol.com
    lol i just noticed some other things in ur article that i wanted to address. wow i do have to agree with just about everything u stated- it is true with the
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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      lol i just noticed some other things in ur article that i wanted to address.

      wow i do have to agree with just about everything u stated- it is true with
      the narcissim thing- i beleive since we can't procreate we must find that
      attachment elsewhere, whereas str8 ppl aoutomatically have it by giving birth. Once
      (imparticularly) a gay male notices that other gay males consider him cute he
      knows right there that thats his strong point and of course his head is going
      to grow lol the same way a str8 guy would for it also happens with str8 guys
      BUT there's a difference he uses condomns so as not to impregnant a female a
      gay male can not do this for we don't procreate so a gay male will take this as
      the str8 man's 'condomn' if you will. Personally, for me narsism is a
      turn-off i wouldn't want to date someone who thinks of themselves more 'handsome'
      than i for then that brings insecurities that I'm unatractive and they will go
      sleep with someone else; i personally am not attracted to over weight men, but
      some ppl are, as I am not attracted to extremly hairy men but some are.
      extremly over weight indiviudals are (im generalizing here lol) whether
      gay/bi/straight/curious, are over weight b/c they feel outcasted upon in society and they
      find their compassion with something controllable like food (or drugs as I
      will state leter), gays are outcasted in society, as well as unatractive
      individuals are outcasted in society, as well as sex (females or males based on
      cercumstances)-

      i think this part is quite humorous/stereotypical: you stated 'there is the
      surprisngly high level of mental illness prevalent in the gay community'-
      in my opinion these 'drama queens' you mentioned are mainly
      immature/fancifull individuals, you must understand that most of us come out later in our years
      and in different ways we try to relive our childhood/teenage years thru
      manerisms (i don't knwo if i spelled that right lol). in turn, we tend to become
      childish acting, it is not a desease but yet moreover a maturity factor, also
      realize that many gay men have more estrogen then testoterone and that some of
      us have female traits that cause us to react the way a female would, this looks
      strange to the public eye for supposedly a man acts like a man who is
      'supposed' to be emotionless (sometimes you have to pretend that u are str8 to
      understand the ppl looking in on u)- i myself act feminine, i like to say i'm
      naturley feminine for i don't over-react on my female mannerisms, i simply act like
      'me'.
      the drugs and alcohol are similar to being over-weight, but like in my
      cases i was the opposite i did drugs not because i was outcasted upon but b/c i
      wanted to do them, i was rebelious at the time and I wanted to be 'bad'- if
      there's such a definition for that state of mind. i beleive my experiencees
      have made me a stronger 'gay' male- and am able to defend myself in many
      situations for i don't always fit the 'typical' gay guy and I can defend both sides of
      the issues.
      i also agree with the overeducated gay male having inflated egos lol- but i
      admire ppls who are overeducated, BUT i do not like it when my views and
      accounts are treated as something uneducated and stupid for I have decent reasons
      why I beleive the things i do, if this is what happened to you i feel for u.
      now society in general has a sex addiction in my opinion, so that part i
      slightly disagree with you on; its only more prevalent in the gya comminuty b/c
      not only can we not be attached to our mates with giving peternal/maternal birth
      (excluding falling in love and being monogomous) which causes us to do what
      ever the hell we want to do sexually (despite adoption and artificial
      insementation) but b/c the gay community is smaller then the hetereosexual community.
      u bring some awesome points out- but u must also look at the positive
      side of things- like one of my favorite singers (Alycia Moore=P!nk) always
      says:: 'we are all pink on the inside, the beauty is in our differences.'
      ~danny
    • Scott Russell
      Hi Korry, Here s my scatter-shot response (at first blush): Yeah, I studied Joe Nicolosi too. I met him several times and he does seem to be a compassionate
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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        Hi Korry,

        Here's my scatter-shot response (at first blush):

        Yeah, I studied Joe Nicolosi too. I met him several times and he does seem to be a compassionate and convincing speaker.

        But in the end it is an issue of biblical worldview.

        Reparative therapists and Fundies CANNOT conceive that homosexuals could be anything else but heterosexuals who are misbehaving. Scripture leaves no room for long-term, committed same-sex relationships, not just because they had no experience of such, but sex was meant for PROCREATION nothing else. This is the biblical mandate -- be fruitful and multiply, grow the nation.

        Could God have plans for other of his children? Might there be another role for us to play besides breeding?

        As much as individuals might want to "become" heterosexual, all I have ever witnessed were individuals that Exodus helped "behave" hetersexually. No change in orientation, only change in behavior. Is this healthy? Dobson and others would say so -- it makes them more comfortable. I honestly don't recall any "successes" in Exodus that said their orientation changed. My theory is that those who have the best behavioral change are those who are truly bi-sexual the first place. But conservatives don't believe in bi-sexuals either. I have never and will never have feelings for women -- I'm just trying to be honest. If that makes me an abomination, I will put my self in the hands of a loving and merciful God. God save me from the clutches of his loyal "followers."

        In the Episcopal Church we are fighting to protect our first openly gay bishop -- it is an issue of honesty. Gene Robinson tried reparative therapy -- it didn't work. Rather than live as a priest and now bishop in the closet, he is being honest and open with his life and his story. He's being called every name in the book, but in the end he is simply a man of integrity.

        I'm glad to see you are reading Yeats and Renoir not just Paul or Joe Nicolosi.

        Keep it up!

        Scott+




        korrykorrykoan <korrykorrykoan@...> wrote:


        "Things fall apart/The center cannot hold...The best lack all
        conviction/And the worst are full of passionate intensity."

        W.B. Yeats, The Second Coming

        The Yeats poem kind of sums up how I feel at the moment with regards
        to both sides of the debate. That, and Jean Renoir�s "It is a time
        when everyone is lying" from La Regle de la Ju

        I go back and forth with regards to the sexual identity thing. I have
        read just about everything there is to read regarding reparative
        therapy that I could find, especially NARTH.

        I find myself agreeing with most of what Josesph Nicolosi writes. As
        a gay man I find myself agreeing with just about everything he has to
        write regarding the pathological roots of same-sex attraction in men.
        I should know, I was the classic "kitchen window boy" in my
        childhood, estranged from my crazy, temperamental, alcoholic father,
        as well as my hostile and abusive older brothers. By contrast, I was
        always finding comfort, consolation and compassion in the company of
        my mother, grandmother, or any of my many aunts.

        I was overweight as a kid from a combination of too much junk food
        and hardly any physical activity. I was the boy who was a complete
        screw-up in gymn and was the butt of ridicule and abuse from the
        other kids. Of course I was artistic, precocious, and sensitive. And
        profoundly haunted by that feeling of "gender emptiness" and a deep
        sense of shame over being such a sissy.

        But the curious thing is that until adolescence hit, I had hetero-
        erotic feelings. I�d pop an instant boner whenever I looked at my
        brother�s stolen copies of Playboy; big tits, curvaceous ass, the
        whole bit. I also had some latent erotic feelings looking at naked
        guys, especially guy�s butts, but it wasn�t until I turned twelve
        that I experienced a major sea change in my feelings. Women no longer
        turned me on, but the other boys and the other guys did -- BIG TIME.

        Still, adolescence (which for me was in the late 70�s) was hellish. I
        got beat up a lot for being a wimp and a nerd, my father died from
        alcoholism, and my brothers just got meaner and more abusive.

        I grew up close to NYC, and got into the cruising scene pretty early,
        having sex in tea rooms and alleys, and in the private homes of older
        (and old) men. All the time I loathed myself for a myriad of reasons.

        Gay life is sleazy and dysfunctional, though it may not politically
        correct to broach this. But I have seen quite a bit of gay life in
        New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, Vancouver,
        Denver...and many other places. I have attended Radical Faerie
        gatherings, and boy oh boy the things I have seen (and sometimes
        done).

        Why I agree with Nicolosi is because I see the trauma over and over
        again. I see guys estranged from their own masculinity, guys who were
        overmothered and underfathered, who somehow think that another�s
        guy�s cum is a sort of elixer that will provide them the missing
        element in their hearts. The body types I notice in the gay male
        community tend to be 1)out-of-shape or 2)when guys do start pumping
        up, they become ultra-narcissitic about their bodies.

        There is the surprisingly high level of mental illness prevalent in
        the gay male community, at least I have found. More so than in the
        company of straight men, I find too many hysterical drama queens who
        overreact emotionally to all sorts of circumstances, and too many
        overeducated gay men with inflated egos about their academic and
        artistic gifts. There is the high amount of drinking, doping, and
        smoking that goes on as well.

        Then there is the sex addiction, which all too often is more powerful
        than any fear of death or disease. Which is why you read about gay
        male safe-sex educators who work in public clinics admitting that
        they engage in unsafe sex in bathhouses and circuit parties.

        But I feel equally pessimistic about "reparative therapy" for gay
        men. Women are a different story altogehter, and I have known way too
        man ex-lesbians who transition all the time without the need of
        therapy or religion. They just do.

        By contrast, my own experience with Exodus was not encouraging, and
        when even Alan Medinger, one of the main proponents of Christian ex-
        gay therapy states that Exodus�s definition of heterosexuality DOES
        NOT include either erotic feelings or fantasies about the opposite
        sex, you have to wonder: go figure.

        Indeed, I find the right-wing Christian ex-gay trip the flip side of
        the same coin of dysfunction as the gay male lifestyle.

        When you notice that the hottest category for porn these days
        is "young straight guys" then you know that what we are craving in
        our sexual feelings is both our mascunility ("straight") and
        innocence ("young").

        But even if we learn how to play touch football, find surrogate
        fathers and brothers, and pray to Jesus...I have seen scant evidence
        that that makes you straight. It�s pathetic when I correspond
        with "ex-gay" guys who claim that they have been on "the healing
        path" for 15 years and are just, ALMOST (perhaps?) have "feelings"
        for women. How pathetic.

        So what�s the solution? I will write more in my next post after I get
        flamed for this one.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Korry Korry
        ... What a joke,drespapa. Supposedly? As if in reality I were the Church Lady from SNL and I merely repeating rumors I culled off the ´net? Dude, I grew just
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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          --- drespapa <drespapa@...> wrote:
          > If by "flamed" you mean notes of disagreement, I'll
          > be the first. You are
          > making broad generalizations and judgments based
          > (supposedly) on your own
          > experience. I defy you to name ONE sleazy

          What a joke,drespapa. Supposedly? As if in reality I
          were the Church Lady from SNL and I merely repeating
          rumors I culled off the �net?

          Dude, I grew just outside of Manhattan, and got into
          the cruising scene just before the advent of herpes
          and then AIDS. I used to read Richard Goldstein and
          the late Arthur Bell in the Village Voice and took
          seriously their espousal of gay promiscuity as a
          revolutionary, progressive behavior. The ads in the
          Voice, the New York Native, et al, et cetera for the
          bathhouses and gay porn palaces pushed the same
          message. At the same time, when William Friedkin was
          filming "Cruising" on the lower east side, huge crowds
          protested this supposedly stereotyping of gay men as
          kinky and promiscous.

          Then lo and behold, AIDS reared its ugly head and cut
          a wide swath of destruction because of the very high
          level of promiscuity among gay men in urban centers.

          Drespapa, I was there, I saw what went on with my own
          eyes.

          Later on I worked as an AIDS-prevention counselor, and
          at the conferences I attended, no one tried to
          whitewash the fact that gay men have WAY more sex than
          anybody else.

          Yes, the dysfunction I described does happen in the
          straight community, but proportionally it happens to a
          far greater extent in the gay male community.

          Just a few other things about myself. I am
          professional writer, I have a degree in Religious
          Studies (departmental honors) with minors in
          Journalism, Literature, and Theatre. I have had what
          William James described as a variety of religious
          experiences (that is supernatural ones, from
          experiences of the Spirit to encounters with the
          departed), and I think whole ex-gay movement is
          profoundly misguided, but it also touches upon certain
          core truths and realities that gay men would be better
          off acknowledging.





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        • Dave
          I m not joking at all, I take this topic very seriously and I read your first post all the way through before responding. Something you clearly did not do
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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            I'm not joking at all, I take this topic very seriously and I read
            your first post all the way through before responding. Something you
            clearly did not do with my response, or you are deliberately being
            rude by addressing me as Ms. No where did I deny the problems that
            you choose to focus on again. I see NARTH and Nicolosi as PART of
            the problem, the attitude presented in your note is to me a
            contributing factor in exactly what you say you are concerned about.
            The constant mantra of "fags are sick nasty pigs" will NEVER have a
            postitive impact and helps quarantee another generation of men who
            don't care enough about themselves to cultivate safe and healthy
            sexual habits. I said "supposedly" because there are tons of
            examples of "questioning" posts on every group like this that are
            nothing more than poorly disguised bashing rants. Whether you have
            experienced what you say or not is completely your business but it
            changes nothing in how I see your note. As I said - in your own
            journey I hope you find what you are seeking. Dave

            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Korry Korry
            <korrykorrykoan@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > --- drespapa <drespapa@c...> wrote:
            > > If by "flamed" you mean notes of disagreement, I'll
            > > be the first. You are
            > > making broad generalizations and judgments based
            > > (supposedly) on your own
            > > experience. I defy you to name ONE sleazy
            >
            > What a joke,drespapa. Supposedly? As if in reality I
            > were the Church Lady from SNL and I merely repeating
            > rumors I culled off the ´net?
            >
          • Jayelle Wiggins
            And these days in NYC, my wife and I see that queer men our age (I m 30, she s 29) have way more sense than that. Things change, dude. Gayness or biness
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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              And these days in NYC, my wife and I see that queer
              men our age (I'm 30, she's 29) have way more sense
              than that. Things change, dude. Gayness or biness
              doesn't automatically have to lead to the kind of
              horrible and lethal scene you described.

              --Jayelle

              --- Korry Korry <korrykorrykoan@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              >
              > --- drespapa <drespapa@...> wrote:
              > > If by "flamed" you mean notes of disagreement,
              > I'll
              > > be the first. You are
              > > making broad generalizations and judgments based
              > > (supposedly) on your own
              > > experience. I defy you to name ONE sleazy
              >
              > What a joke,drespapa. Supposedly? As if in reality
              > I
              > were the Church Lady from SNL and I merely repeating
              > rumors I culled off the �net?
              >
              > Dude, I grew just outside of Manhattan, and got into
              > the cruising scene just before the advent of herpes
              > and then AIDS. I used to read Richard Goldstein and
              > the late Arthur Bell in the Village Voice and took
              > seriously their espousal of gay promiscuity as a
              > revolutionary, progressive behavior. The ads in the
              > Voice, the New York Native, et al, et cetera for the
              > bathhouses and gay porn palaces pushed the same
              > message. At the same time, when William Friedkin
              > was
              > filming "Cruising" on the lower east side, huge
              > crowds
              > protested this supposedly stereotyping of gay men as
              > kinky and promiscous.
              >
              > Then lo and behold, AIDS reared its ugly head and
              > cut
              > a wide swath of destruction because of the very high
              > level of promiscuity among gay men in urban centers.
              >
              > Drespapa, I was there, I saw what went on with my
              > own
              > eyes.
              >
              > Later on I worked as an AIDS-prevention counselor,
              > and
              > at the conferences I attended, no one tried to
              > whitewash the fact that gay men have WAY more sex
              > than
              > anybody else.
              >
              > Yes, the dysfunction I described does happen in the
              > straight community, but proportionally it happens to
              > a
              > far greater extent in the gay male community.
              >
              > Just a few other things about myself. I am
              > professional writer, I have a degree in Religious
              > Studies (departmental honors) with minors in
              > Journalism, Literature, and Theatre. I have had what
              > William James described as a variety of religious
              > experiences (that is supernatural ones, from
              > experiences of the Spirit to encounters with the
              > departed), and I think whole ex-gay movement is
              > profoundly misguided, but it also touches upon
              > certain
              > core truths and realities that gay men would be
              > better
              > off acknowledging.


              =====
              "As far as I know, nobody is handing out prizes, tangible or otherwise, for endurance of life its ownself. In my experience, if you ignore your life, it will pretty much ignore you right back."--Jill Conner Browne, the Sweet Potato Queens' Field Guide to Men

              http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch





















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            • Jayelle Wiggins
              ... I saw him once at Love Won Out and thought he was a hateful, homophobic bastard who had no business interfering with other peoples minds. Did he change?
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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                --- Scott Russell <syzygy121@...> wrote:

                > Yeah, I studied Joe Nicolosi too. I met him several
                > times and he does seem to be a compassionate and
                > convincing speaker.

                I saw him once at Love Won Out and thought he was a
                hateful, homophobic bastard who had no business
                interfering with other peoples' minds. Did he change?
                Do we just see things differently? I don't know. It
                would be nice if compassion was his default setting
                and he'd just flipped the switch for us, though.

                > As much as individuals might want to "become"
                > heterosexual, all I have ever witnessed were
                > individuals that Exodus helped "behave"
                > hetersexually. No change in orientation, only
                > change in behavior. Is this healthy?

                Not for the poor straight spouses, it sure isn't. I
                wish they would think about that. Then again, I don't
                think they have a high regard for female sexual desire
                and sexual pleasure, either.

                Dobson and
                > others would say so -- it makes them more
                > comfortable.

                That's what I often say in discussions--it solves
                *their* problems while giving us queer people new
                ones.

                My theory is that those who have the best
                > behavioral change are those who are truly bi-sexual
                > the first place. But conservatives don't believe in
                > bi-sexuals either.

                AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH!!! When I interviewed an ex-gay
                leader about ministry to teens, I asked him what he
                would do for bi teens; he was confused, and clearly
                confused by my own bisexuality, as well. I had a
                youth minister tell me to "just embrace the
                heterosexuality and let the gay side die" once. Which
                isn't the same thing as, say, falling in love with a
                man and being monogamous, not at all.

                Then again, I have read two wonderful books about
                same-sex marriage (a topic that interests me very
                much, as I entered one on New Year's Eve.) Jonathan
                Rauch and Evan Wolfson, intelligent and passionate and
                helpful to me as they are, couldn't bring themselves
                to acknowledge us, either.

                I have never and will never have
                > feelings for women -- I'm just trying to be honest.
                > If that makes me an abomination, I will put my self
                > in the hands of a loving and merciful God. God save
                > me from the clutches of his loyal "followers."

                Hear, hear!

                > In the Episcopal Church we are fighting to protect
                > our first openly gay bishop -- it is an issue of
                > honesty. Gene Robinson tried reparative therapy --
                > it didn't work. Rather than live as a priest and
                > now bishop in the closet, he is being honest and
                > open with his life and his story. He's being called
                > every name in the book, but in the end he is simply
                > a man of integrity.

                I'm just amazed that a church that began because an
                English King couldn't work with the Catholic church's
                rules about sex and marriage (no divorce) is now
                experiencing a schism over...sex and marriage.

                Nice to meet you, Scott.

                B*B,
                Jayelle

                =====
                "As far as I know, nobody is handing out prizes, tangible or otherwise, for endurance of life its ownself. In my experience, if you ignore your life, it will pretty much ignore you right back."--Jill Conner Browne, the Sweet Potato Queens' Field Guide to Men

                http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch























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              • Jayelle Wiggins
                ... For the ones who don t. For the ones, like you, who long for a different kind of gayness and gay community. (And for the record, I had a second partner,
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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                  --- Dannyzahalfangel@... wrote:

                  > community- for instance why fight for gay marriage
                  > if more then half of the gay
                  > marriages engage in three-somes?

                  For the ones who don't. For the ones, like you, who
                  long for a different kind of gayness and gay
                  community. (And for the record, I had a second
                  partner, a man, before we got married, or even moved
                  in together.)

                  but
                  > yet with the bible aside
                  > america is a free country and for Gods-sake if gays
                  > want to get married then
                  > so be it, there are religions out there that endorse
                  > gays and america is
                  > supposedly about freedom of religion.

                  Well-put. We shouldn't have to live by *others'*
                  beliefs. My wife is agnostic and I am Pagan; if one
                  of us was a man, our marriage would not be "sacred" by
                  any conservative Christian definition, but it would be
                  legal.

                  > growing up my family treated porn as this huge
                  > sin, i truly don't find it
                  > a sin, tho to me its gross to look at it no matter
                  > if its women or men i
                  > think its really disgusting to see bunches of naked
                  > ppl cuming and have their
                  > d*cks in all ppls mouths and stuff lol, i want to
                  > see my boyfriend naked and have
                  > sex with him and he I, not a whole bunch of guys
                  > and girls having sex with
                  > each other-

                  I feel the same way, pretty much. I have never
                  understood people who are so against it--why does "I
                  wouldn't" have to equal "you shouldn't"?

                  > funny how i grew up (in my opninion) fairly
                  > decent-looking as well as an
                  > average 'C' student, tho everyone knew i was gay by
                  > stereotyping, i never
                  > allowed ppl to beat me up for i would fight back if
                  > needed be and most ppl knew
                  > this in school.

                  Good for you! :-)

                  i never dated in high school either,
                  > for the promiscuiouty was
                  > too high and i was afraid of catching something as
                  > well as having rumors that
                  > 'all' gays are slutty (considering that i was one of
                  > the only gays in my high
                  > school, pressure was on me to support my community
                  > and still is at times),

                  You know, as a little bisexual girl, I didn't date
                  within my high school, only outside of it, because I
                  hated the way most of the guys treated the girls and
                  because I was already subject to rumors ranging from
                  "slut" to "dyke" to "frigid". (A girl grows a set of
                  C-cups and looks guys in the eye; that's all they need
                  to know in high school.) It's not just a gay thing.

                  i hope
                  > that u will understand urself
                  > better as the years progress for it sux to live an
                  > unhappy life; i myself am
                  > half way there, but i don't intend to live a life of
                  > unhappiness.

                  And I certainly hope you don't!

                  B*B,
                  Jayelle

                  =====
                  "As far as I know, nobody is handing out prizes, tangible or otherwise, for endurance of life its ownself. In my experience, if you ignore your life, it will pretty much ignore you right back."--Jill Conner Browne, the Sweet Potato Queens' Field Guide to Men

                  http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch
























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                • Jayelle Wiggins
                  Oooooh, now I feel awful. Korry, I apologize. I ll try this again later. B*B, Jayelle ... ===== As far as I know, nobody is handing out prizes, tangible or
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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                    Oooooh, now I feel awful. Korry, I apologize. I'll
                    try this again later.

                    B*B,
                    Jayelle

                    --- Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Welcome to the group, korry! The purpose of this
                    > group is to be a
                    > forum for those who are in that difficult in-between
                    > spot. So, I
                    > hope we don't flame you for your honest sharing.
                    >
                    > My knee-jerk response to your post is to discount
                    > all of your
                    > observations of gay men as stereotypes and then to
                    > point-out all of
                    > the exceptions. However, I don't believe the point
                    > of your post was
                    > to negatively stereotype gay men. Rather, you are
                    > sharing your own
                    > experience and I and others in the gay community
                    > have made similar
                    > generalizations.
                    >
                    > I have to ask, what signficance do your observations
                    > of gay men
                    > serve to you? Although I agree that your
                    > observations are correct
                    > for a certain segments of the gay community, I do
                    > think it's
                    > inaccurate to describe all gays this way. But even
                    > if all gays fit
                    > into the negative stereotype, so what? That doesn't
                    > mean you, I or
                    > anyone who accepts their same-sex attractions is
                    > pre-destined to
                    > become a gay stereotype. Just as much as a
                    > heterosexual chooses to
                    > lead healthy lifestyle, we all have
                    > self-determination and
                    > responsibilities.
                    >
                    > I understand and recognize alot of your
                    > observations, but I guess I
                    > don't quite know where you are coming from and what
                    > your intention
                    > is. If you are disappointed with sexual
                    > promiscuity, unsafe sex,
                    > narcism, emotional dependency, drug abuse, etc.,
                    > then you should
                    > probably concentrate on those specific issues --
                    > rather than trying
                    > to find a magic "reparative therapy" all-in-one
                    > solution. Maybe
                    > before you discuss "solutions", you define what the
                    > "problems" are
                    > more specifically.
                    >
                    > You haven't mentioned anything about religion, so I
                    > assume you're
                    > not struggling with religious doctrine/philosophy.
                    > Obviously, if
                    > you adhere to the doctrine that same-sex behavior is
                    > immoral, then
                    > you should simply abstain or seek hetero-marriage
                    > and hope for the
                    > best. Certainly, Exodus' fine-print disclaimer is
                    > that their
                    > ministry does not turn gays into straights, but
                    > rather helps gays
                    > lead Christian lives -- heterosexuality is just an
                    > unintentional
                    > side effect.
                    >
                    > I could go on and on, but I suspect your post will
                    > provoke other
                    > hopefully more articulate responses.
                    >
                    > Again, welcome to the group!
                    >
                    > Norm!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    =====
                    "As far as I know, nobody is handing out prizes, tangible or otherwise, for endurance of life its ownself. In my experience, if you ignore your life, it will pretty much ignore you right back."--Jill Conner Browne, the Sweet Potato Queens' Field Guide to Men

                    http://www.livejournal.com/~princesswitch























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                  • Dannyzahalfangel@aol.com
                    I m curious, who are all these ppl you guys are talking about? with their theories and such, i don t know who gave them the power to cause gays to feel even
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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                      I'm curious, who are all these ppl you guys are talking about? with their
                      theories and such, i don't know who gave them the power to cause gays to feel
                      even more confussed then some of us already are- these ex-gay ministries
                      obviously they do not comprehend sexuality and individuality properly, they've been
                      misinformed for how can one live knowing that one has ruined ppls lives instead
                      of aiding the rather complex situations?

                      I have spoken to many educated persons surrounding these issues, my best
                      friends' professor who is a str8 male (married and has children) and is a counsler
                      for gays is a wonderful person; he teaches human sexuality (quote un-quote
                      'human sexuality')- which is an issue many ppl do not discuss as being both
                      heterosexual and homosexual as well as bisexual. funny how they all interlock
                      somehow!?
                      I've also spoekn to a man who hates gays who had told me i was going to hell
                      one time, well i backfired lol stating that well I guess im going to meet you
                      there for you're an alcoholic which is a sin agaisnt God (dispite the fact
                      that i don't beleive my soul is floating to heaven nor hell, i will be barried
                      like everyone else on this earth who has passed away- dust u r, dust you will
                      return; hell is here on earth [and boy don't u knwo thats the truth]or like
                      described in the original Greek texts 'sheol' which means 'graveyard of makind',
                      but ppl use Hell as a form of a 'Big foot' theory, to scare ppl to do right).

                      I'm curious to read these ppls views, as well as those theories who are for
                      gays; can anyone e-mail me thier names please. thanx.
                      ~danny
                    • Dannyzahalfangel@aol.com
                      jayelle, as far as the marriage thing i stated, i was simply making a point to make certain str8 christinas understand; otherwise i wouldn t of controdicted
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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                        jayelle,
                        as far as the marriage thing i stated, i was simply making a point to make
                        certain str8 'christinas' understand; otherwise i wouldn't of controdicted my
                        self purposely ; p.

                        my best friend is pagan as well, she practices wicca (i used to as well),
                        which is another subject on its own lol, but good im glad to hear that different
                        religions can somehow come together as one; it expresses open mindedness.

                        the way guys treat girls is also another subject entirely- one of my friends
                        wanted a breat implant and i told her i hope u r doing it for ur self not guys
                        view of whats beautiful. Men (genralizing again) expect women to look, act in
                        certain ways, i don't like it either, this machoism thing is truly annoying
                        and stupid.
                        N-e ways u have to also understnad that if one could try and convert ppls
                        opinions of a certain type of ppl whether gay/str8/bi/christian/asian whatever,
                        one will attempt it as best sudible so as to help others (in the same position)
                        who aren't strong anough to defend themselves, have a better life coping with
                        the various situations of stereotyping.

                        about the unhappiness i stated, i am half way there, true- but im still
                        growing as ive said, i'm only 22 and still living life as it comes. im an extremly
                        opne-minded individual tho, as i understand many different points of views;
                        mine are just opinions and i don't mean anything harmful by them just simply
                        trying to make points and debate, this is all...
                        as of now i think im more educated in many things than other 22 year olds, i
                        cna look at life with stern and pride and if i fall because of defeat at least
                        i've died trying the best that i could- thus i will become more happier as
                        the years go by.
                        i like ur comments jayelle : )
                        at least im not speaking to someon who completley feels offended with my
                        comments or doesn't hear me out.
                        xoxoxox ~danny
                      • Korry Korry
                        I am sure, Dave, that you take this topic very seriously. It is funny, though, that you questioned my honesty. When I was a young man, I was, like you Dave, an
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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                          I am sure, Dave, that you take this topic very
                          seriously. It is funny, though, that you questioned my
                          honesty. When I was a young man, I was, like you Dave,
                          an unreflective knee-jerk gay rights advocate. I
                          remember coming out to my entire freshman class in
                          college because the guys were going to put on a skit
                          that portrayed all gay men as flaming pansies (this
                          was 1982). I announced that not only am I gay, but
                          that I have never known any gay man who behaved in
                          such a manner. They dropped the idea for the skit,
                          well and good. Yet at the same time, amongst the few
                          other gay friends I had, we all used to lament that
                          the city�s main gay bar (it had three) were all full
                          of flaming nellies. And they were! Screaming Barbra
                          fans, the whole nine yards. To find a guy who didn�t
                          act like that was a rarity, and to find a guy who was
                          both butch and muscular was nearly impossible. This
                          was the early 80�s, mind you, when the beanpole look
                          was the standard for guys, before AIDS and steroids
                          sent everyone off to gymns.

                          The notion that right-wing, religious homophobia is
                          causing a new generation of guys to bareback and drop
                          meth, with the resultant new strains of HIV, is total
                          bullshit.

                          Of course, unreflective knee-jerk political activists
                          don�t help public perceptions of gay men that much. I
                          used to live with one. This guy silk-screened his own
                          tee-shirts, and would frequently wear one which had in
                          bold letters: GAY PRIDE over a scanned image from a
                          porn rag featuring graphic, hardcore butt-fucking.
                          And when I said he wore one, I meant in public, such
                          as when he went off to Safeway to buy groceries. Smart
                          guy, too, a honors pre-law graduate and very apt at
                          repeating the exact same arguments that Dave is using
                          in this forum. He also argued that children should be
                          forced into prostitution for their own good and that
                          parent-child incest was beneficial to the child. I
                          will give you, Dave, the benefit of a doubt and not
                          think that you go THAT far.

                          Korry


                          --- Dave <drespapa@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > I'm not joking at all, I take this topic very
                          > seriously and I read
                          > your first post all the way through before
                          > responding. Something you
                          > clearly did not do with my response, or you are
                          > deliberately being
                          > rude by addressing me as Ms. No where did I deny
                          > the problems that
                          > you choose to focus on again. I see NARTH and
                          > Nicolosi as PART of
                          > the problem, the attitude presented in your note is
                          > to me a
                          > contributing factor in exactly what you say you are
                          > concerned about.
                          > The constant mantra of "fags are sick nasty pigs"
                          > will NEVER have a
                          > postitive impact and helps quarantee another
                          > generation of men who
                          > don't care enough about themselves to cultivate safe
                          > and healthy
                          > sexual habits. I said "supposedly" because there
                          > are tons of
                          > examples of "questioning" posts on every group like
                          > this that are
                          > nothing more than poorly disguised bashing rants.
                          > Whether you have
                          > experienced what you say or not is completely your
                          > business but it
                          > changes nothing in how I see your note. As I said -
                          > in your own
                          > journey I hope you find what you are seeking. Dave
                          >
                          > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Korry Korry
                          > <korrykorrykoan@y...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- drespapa <drespapa@c...> wrote:
                          > > > If by "flamed" you mean notes of disagreement,
                          > I'll
                          > > > be the first. You are
                          > > > making broad generalizations and judgments based
                          > > > (supposedly) on your own
                          > > > experience. I defy you to name ONE sleazy
                          > >
                          > > What a joke,drespapa. Supposedly? As if in
                          > reality I
                          > > were the Church Lady from SNL and I merely
                          > repeating
                          > > rumors I culled off the �net?
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >




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                        • drespapa
                          The first thing I recommend to all screeching bashers who don t read what I write but create their own fantasies about what it says and what it says about me
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 1, 2005
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                            The first thing I recommend to all screeching bashers who don't read what I
                            write but create their own fantasies about what it says and what it says
                            about me is that they find a good remedial English program, it helps
                            immensely. You can judge, scream, lie and do what ever else gets you off
                            but I have no intention of continuing any contact with you. I am more than
                            happy to discuss issues concerning the gay communities with people who are
                            able to remain rational and actually read what I say. You do not fit that
                            category. And little one, you are exactly what that statement in my profile
                            that offended you soooo much was put there for. I suggest you quickly step
                            down off the throne that YOU think you have some right to sit on and
                            straighten out your own life before you attempt to say one word about mine.
                            You are here for one thing - ATTACK. Go for it but I'll flush you the same
                            place I flush other refuse. I don't have another second to waste on your
                            childish nonsense.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Korry Korry [mailto:korrykorrykoan@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 1:59 PM
                            To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Le Ms. Drespapa
                          • nyguy_1225
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 2, 2005
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                              <<Scripture leaves no room for long-term, committed same-sex
                              relationships, not just because they had no experience of such, but
                              sex was meant for PROCREATION nothing else. This is the biblical
                              mandate -- be fruitful and multiply, grow the nation. Could God
                              have plans for other of his children? Might there be another role
                              for us to play besides breeding?>>

                              Nice post, Scott! While I agree that the Ancient people of Bible
                              had no experience of homosexuality as we know it and therefore no
                              experience of long-term, committed same-sex relationships either,
                              the Bible clearly depicts a great deal more for human relationship
                              and sexuality besides "breeding."

                              In fact, way back at the very beginning, God, we are told, was
                              strangely sympathetic to the loneliness of Adam, observing that
                              within the universe he had so conspicuously pronounced "good" there
                              was, nevertheless, a significant omission. "It was not good for the
                              man to be alone" (Genesis 2:18). In the following verses we are
                              given another account of the purpose of sexuality: not procreation
                              this time but companionship. And this was declared in paradise,
                              before the fall and in unbroken relationship with God!

                              It is significant too that as one reads through the book of Song of
                              Solomon, one stumbles upon passages of scripture that are more
                              sexually steamy than much of the X-rated material that comes wrapped
                              in plain brown paper -- all of this with no reference to marriage or
                              procreation. Song of Solomon celebrates Solomon's favorite harem
                              girl's "rounded vulva, like a bowl always full to the brim with
                              sweet liquid." She, in turn, sings of "my lover thrusting his shaft
                              into the hole and my guts seething for him."

                              Even the apostle Paul who advocated singleness as "the better way"
                              knew most people are not given the "gift" of celibacy and cautioned
                              that if one does not have this gift, one should marry for "it is
                              better to marry than to burn with passion." Paul clearly concedes
                              that some people will not be able to govern their passion without
                              access to an intimate partner, a spouse. Noteworthy too is that
                              Paul does not arrogate to himself the job of wading through the
                              community determining who has self-control and who does not. Nor
                              does he license anyone else to make that determination for others.
                              Each individual, according to Paul, has to decide that for himself.

                              Does that apply only to heterosexuals? Much of the Christian
                              objection to what is sometimes called the homosexual "lifestyle"
                              rests on our sensible objection to promiscuity. But if marriage
                              were something from which heterosexuals were restricted, what do you
                              imagine their "lifestyle" would look like?

                              We can readily extrapolate 4 values that Paul thought constitute
                              marriage. They were fidelity, mutuality, truthfulness and
                              permanence. But nowhere in this discourse of Paul's -- or in any of
                              his letters, for that matter -- do we find child production as a
                              rationale for marriage. And for those who are married, it is
                              noteworthy too that Paul also stressed the importance of not
                              depriving one's partner of needed physical intimacy [sexual love
                              making]:

                              "Since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own
                              wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his
                              marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The
                              wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In
                              the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but
                              also to his wife. Do not deprive each other [of sexual fulfillment]
                              except by mutual consent and for a time ... then come together
                              again ..." [1 Corinthians 7:2-5]

                              Child production as a rationale for marriage may be a Roman Catholic
                              misleading fabrication, but it is certainly NOT a biblical mandate!

                              -Alex


                              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Scott Russell
                              <syzygy121@y...> wrote:
                              > Hi Korry,
                              >
                              > Here's my scatter-shot response (at first blush):
                              >
                              > Yeah, I studied Joe Nicolosi too. I met him several times and he
                              does seem to be a compassionate and convincing speaker.
                              >
                              > But in the end it is an issue of biblical worldview.
                              >
                              > Reparative therapists and Fundies CANNOT conceive that homosexuals
                              could be anything else but heterosexuals who are misbehaving.
                              Scripture leaves no room for long-term, committed same-sex
                              relationships, not just because they had no experience of such, but
                              sex was meant for PROCREATION nothing else. This is the biblical
                              mandate -- be fruitful and multiply, grow the nation.
                              >
                              > Could God have plans for other of his children? Might there be
                              another role for us to play besides breeding?
                              >
                              > As much as individuals might want to "become" heterosexual, all I
                              have ever witnessed were individuals that Exodus helped "behave"
                              hetersexually. No change in orientation, only change in behavior.
                              Is this healthy? Dobson and others would say so -- it makes them
                              more comfortable. I honestly don't recall any "successes" in Exodus
                              that said their orientation changed. My theory is that those who
                              have the best behavioral change are those who are truly bi-sexual
                              the first place. But conservatives don't believe in bi-sexuals
                              either. I have never and will never have feelings for women -- I'm
                              just trying to be honest. If that makes me an abomination, I will
                              put my self in the hands of a loving and merciful God. God save me
                              from the clutches of his loyal "followers."
                              >
                              > In the Episcopal Church we are fighting to protect our first
                              openly gay bishop -- it is an issue of honesty. Gene Robinson tried
                              reparative therapy -- it didn't work. Rather than live as a priest
                              and now bishop in the closet, he is being honest and open with his
                              life and his story. He's being called every name in the book, but
                              in the end he is simply a man of integrity.
                              >
                              > I'm glad to see you are reading Yeats and Renoir not just Paul or
                              Joe Nicolosi.
                              >
                              > Keep it up!
                              >
                              > Scott+
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > korrykorrykoan <korrykorrykoan@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > "Things fall apart/The center cannot hold...The best lack all
                              > conviction/And the worst are full of passionate intensity."
                              >
                              > W.B. Yeats, The Second Coming
                              >
                              > The Yeats poem kind of sums up how I feel at the moment with
                              regards
                              > to both sides of the debate. That, and Jean Renoir´s "It is a time
                              > when everyone is lying" from La Regle de la Ju
                              >
                              > I go back and forth with regards to the sexual identity thing. I
                              have
                              > read just about everything there is to read regarding reparative
                              > therapy that I could find, especially NARTH.
                              >
                              > I find myself agreeing with most of what Josesph Nicolosi writes.
                              As
                              > a gay man I find myself agreeing with just about everything he has
                              to
                              > write regarding the pathological roots of same-sex attraction in
                              men.
                              > I should know, I was the classic "kitchen window boy" in my
                              > childhood, estranged from my crazy, temperamental, alcoholic
                              father,
                              > as well as my hostile and abusive older brothers. By contrast, I
                              was
                              > always finding comfort, consolation and compassion in the company
                              of
                              > my mother, grandmother, or any of my many aunts.
                              >
                              > I was overweight as a kid from a combination of too much junk food
                              > and hardly any physical activity. I was the boy who was a complete
                              > screw-up in gymn and was the butt of ridicule and abuse from the
                              > other kids. Of course I was artistic, precocious, and sensitive.
                              And
                              > profoundly haunted by that feeling of "gender emptiness" and a
                              deep
                              > sense of shame over being such a sissy.
                              >
                              > But the curious thing is that until adolescence hit, I had hetero-
                              > erotic feelings. I´d pop an instant boner whenever I looked at my
                              > brother´s stolen copies of Playboy; big tits, curvaceous ass, the
                              > whole bit. I also had some latent erotic feelings looking at naked
                              > guys, especially guy´s butts, but it wasn´t until I turned twelve
                              > that I experienced a major sea change in my feelings. Women no
                              longer
                              > turned me on, but the other boys and the other guys did -- BIG
                              TIME.
                              >
                              > Still, adolescence (which for me was in the late 70´s) was
                              hellish. I
                              > got beat up a lot for being a wimp and a nerd, my father died
                              from
                              > alcoholism, and my brothers just got meaner and more abusive.
                              >
                              > I grew up close to NYC, and got into the cruising scene pretty
                              early,
                              > having sex in tea rooms and alleys, and in the private homes of
                              older
                              > (and old) men. All the time I loathed myself for a myriad of
                              reasons.
                              >
                              > Gay life is sleazy and dysfunctional, though it may not
                              politically
                              > correct to broach this. But I have seen quite a bit of gay life
                              in
                              > New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, Vancouver,
                              > Denver...and many other places. I have attended Radical Faerie
                              > gatherings, and boy oh boy the things I have seen (and sometimes
                              > done).
                              >
                              > Why I agree with Nicolosi is because I see the trauma over and
                              over
                              > again. I see guys estranged from their own masculinity, guys who
                              were
                              > overmothered and underfathered, who somehow think that another´s
                              > guy´s cum is a sort of elixer that will provide them the missing
                              > element in their hearts. The body types I notice in the gay male
                              > community tend to be 1)out-of-shape or 2)when guys do start
                              pumping
                              > up, they become ultra-narcissitic about their bodies.
                              >
                              > There is the surprisingly high level of mental illness prevalent
                              in
                              > the gay male community, at least I have found. More so than in the
                              > company of straight men, I find too many hysterical drama queens
                              who
                              > overreact emotionally to all sorts of circumstances, and too many
                              > overeducated gay men with inflated egos about their academic and
                              > artistic gifts. There is the high amount of drinking, doping, and
                              > smoking that goes on as well.
                              >
                              > Then there is the sex addiction, which all too often is more
                              powerful
                              > than any fear of death or disease. Which is why you read about gay
                              > male safe-sex educators who work in public clinics admitting that
                              > they engage in unsafe sex in bathhouses and circuit parties.
                              >
                              > But I feel equally pessimistic about "reparative therapy" for gay
                              > men. Women are a different story altogehter, and I have known way
                              too
                              > man ex-lesbians who transition all the time without the need of
                              > therapy or religion. They just do.
                              >
                              > By contrast, my own experience with Exodus was not encouraging,
                              and
                              > when even Alan Medinger, one of the main proponents of Christian
                              ex-
                              > gay therapy states that Exodus´s definition of heterosexuality
                              DOES
                              > NOT include either erotic feelings or fantasies about the opposite
                              > sex, you have to wonder: go figure.
                              >
                              > Indeed, I find the right-wing Christian ex-gay trip the flip side
                              of
                              > the same coin of dysfunction as the gay male lifestyle.
                              >
                              > When you notice that the hottest category for porn these days
                              > is "young straight guys" then you know that what we are craving in
                              > our sexual feelings is both our mascunility ("straight") and
                              > innocence ("young").
                              >
                              > But even if we learn how to play touch football, find surrogate
                              > fathers and brothers, and pray to Jesus...I have seen scant
                              evidence
                              > that that makes you straight. It´s pathetic when I correspond
                              > with "ex-gay" guys who claim that they have been on "the healing
                              > path" for 15 years and are just, ALMOST (perhaps?) have "feelings"
                              > for women. How pathetic.
                              >
                              > So what´s the solution? I will write more in my next post after I
                              get
                              > flamed for this one.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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