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Re: Praise the Lord!!

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  • Norm
    Welcome to the group, Kenny! Your introduction as a gay pentacostal Christian is very intriguing. I hope you can share more about how you ve reconciled your
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 8, 2005
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      Welcome to the group, Kenny! Your introduction as a gay pentacostal
      Christian is very intriguing. I hope you can share more about how
      you've reconciled your faith and sexuality.

      Although I was raised in a fundamentalist church with very
      conservative worship, I briefly attended a Foursquare church and
      another pentacostal-leaning church during my ex-gay days. The
      pentacostal faith appealed to me because it offered more tangible
      ways of expressing and experiencing faith.

      The members here cover a wide-range of ex-gay experiences. Are
      there any specific things you are interested in learning about?

      Also, what is the online ministry you've founded.

      Norm!

      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Folmar" <AOF@a...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!
      >
      > I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a
      21
      > yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I
      am
      > not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined
      this
      > group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective
      of
      > those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online
      ministry
      > that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded
      and
      > abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me
      on
      > this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
      > offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!
      >
      > Blessings in Christ;
      >
      > Kenny Folmar
      > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
    • Kenneth Folmar
      Thank you for your welcome. My reconciliation was a hard journey. Like most I realized who exactly I was at a very young age. I began attending an Apostolic
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 8, 2005
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        Thank you for your welcome. My reconciliation was a hard journey.
        Like most I realized who exactly I was at a very young age. I began
        attending an Apostolic Church at the age of thirteen(for those of you
        who are familiar with the this type of church, it was affiliated with
        the United Pentecostal Church International, also pretty much one of
        the most conservative branches of christianity).I attend for many
        years, when to bible college, where i learned to accept who I was.
        Naturally this church rejected me, I was shattered, thus i went down a
        path of drugs, multiple sexual partners, alcohol, even witchcraft.
        Even traveling down the dangerous path of witchcraft I couldnt let go
        go of Jesus(and of course he was holding on to), so I never embraced
        the pagan beliefs in my heart. I found myself in constant conflict, I
        wanted to serve the true GOD for who I was, and I knew I was made this
        way so there has to be other like minded christians and well I
        discovered them in an assembly in Phx, AZ(at the time i resided in
        Charleston WV)known as Reconciling Pentecostal Assembly(Rpascottsdale.
        com), a church affiliated with Reconcliing Pentecostals
        International(Rpifellowship.com). My journey only lasted 2yrs and for
        that I am greatful that the Lord would still yet pursue me. I realized
        I was called, a long time ago(about 14), my mother had even said that
        her pastor had told her that God had a special annointing on me while
        i was still yet an ifant. I honestly believe God had a work for me to
        do and he intended on me fulfilling it. My ministry began while I was
        living in Sin when i founded a Yahoo Group such as this in 2002 for
        those affected by the same organization I had once affiliated with.
        This past Novemeber I officially found Apostolic Outreach of Faith and
        recently was able to launch our website(Feb 7 2005)www.
        ApostolicOutreachofFaith.com . I do realized I am but a young man, but
        God has taught me some rough lessons, which have molded(and continue
        to do so)me to be what he wants me to be. Sorry I tended to ramble on
        occasion. Feel Free to ask any other questions!

        Blessings In Christ

        Kenny Folmar
        Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
        www.ApostolicOutreachOfFaith.com


        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Welcome to the group, Kenny! Your introduction as a gay pentacostal
        > Christian is very intriguing. I hope you can share more about how
        > you've reconciled your faith and sexuality.
        >
        > Although I was raised in a fundamentalist church with very
        > conservative worship, I briefly attended a Foursquare church and
        > another pentacostal-leaning church during my ex-gay days. The
        > pentacostal faith appealed to me because it offered more tangible
        > ways of expressing and experiencing faith.
        >
        > The members here cover a wide-range of ex-gay experiences. Are
        > there any specific things you are interested in learning about?
        >
        > Also, what is the online ministry you've founded.
        >
        > Norm!
        >
        > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Folmar" <AOF@a...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!
        > >
        > > I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a
        > 21
        > > yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I
        > am
        > > not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined
        > this
        > > group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective
        > of
        > > those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online
        > ministry
        > > that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded
        > and
        > > abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me
        > on
        > > this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
        > > offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!
        > >
        > > Blessings in Christ;
        > >
        > > Kenny Folmar
        > > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
      • Norm
        Thank you for sharing some of your testimony. You were fortunate to attend a bible college that allowed you to accept yourself. Was the bible college open to
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 8, 2005
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          Thank you for sharing some of your testimony. You were fortunate to
          attend a bible college that allowed you to accept yourself. Was the
          bible college open to welcoming gays or was it the freedom of the
          college experience that allowed you to accept yourself?

          I think most of us here have experienced some type of rejection
          during our coming out process. Losing one's spiritual/religous
          identity is especially difficult. Like your experience with
          drugs/promiscuity/witchcraft, the tendency is to "throw the baby out
          with the bathwater" (as Alex would say) when re-assessing our
          religious beliefs.

          It's interesting to me that you would go from a pentacostal faith to
          witchcraft. I can't imagine a more extreme change, but I do see
          some similarities. I have limited knowledge about either faith, but
          it seems both are preoccupied with spiritual manifestations of some
          kind.

          When I came out of the ex-gay lifestyle and Christian
          fundamentalism, I thought attending a Unitarian church and MCC were
          pretty extreme (yes, I'm pretty vanilla in my ideas of rebellion).
          No matter how spiritually conflicted I've been, I can't break the
          habit having to attend services on Sunday mornings. I am sure this
          is due in part to the way my Christian grandmother raised me.

          I'm surprised from your Christian background that you didn't somehow
          end up exploring an ex-gay ministry. I have to ask, did your
          pentacostal church feel they could "heal" the homosexuality out of
          you? I know some Christians feel the pseudo-psychological approach
          of the ex-gay movement is not biblical and too worldly so I wonder
          if this why you missed out. (Although I'm truly thankful you missed
          out on the ex-gay experience.)

          Sorry for all the questions, but your journey sounds interesting.

          Norm!


          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Folmar" <AOF@a...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Thank you for your welcome. My reconciliation was a hard
          journey.
          > Like most I realized who exactly I was at a very young age. I
          began
          > attending an Apostolic Church at the age of thirteen(for those of
          you
          > who are familiar with the this type of church, it was affiliated
          with
          > the United Pentecostal Church International, also pretty much one
          of
          > the most conservative branches of christianity).I attend for many
          > years, when to bible college, where i learned to accept who I was.
          > Naturally this church rejected me, I was shattered, thus i went
          down a
          > path of drugs, multiple sexual partners, alcohol, even witchcraft.
          > Even traveling down the dangerous path of witchcraft I couldnt let
          go
          > go of Jesus(and of course he was holding on to), so I never
          embraced
          > the pagan beliefs in my heart. I found myself in constant
          conflict, I
          > wanted to serve the true GOD for who I was, and I knew I was made
          this
          > way so there has to be other like minded christians and well I
          > discovered them in an assembly in Phx, AZ(at the time i resided in
          > Charleston WV)known as Reconciling Pentecostal Assembly
          (Rpascottsdale.
          > com), a church affiliated with Reconcliing Pentecostals
          > International(Rpifellowship.com). My journey only lasted 2yrs and
          for
          > that I am greatful that the Lord would still yet pursue me. I
          realized
          > I was called, a long time ago(about 14), my mother had even said
          that
          > her pastor had told her that God had a special annointing on me
          while
          > i was still yet an ifant. I honestly believe God had a work for me
          to
          > do and he intended on me fulfilling it. My ministry began while I
          was
          > living in Sin when i founded a Yahoo Group such as this in 2002
          for
          > those affected by the same organization I had once affiliated
          with.
          > This past Novemeber I officially found Apostolic Outreach of Faith
          and
          > recently was able to launch our website(Feb 7 2005)www.
          > ApostolicOutreachofFaith.com . I do realized I am but a young man,
          but
          > God has taught me some rough lessons, which have molded(and
          continue
          > to do so)me to be what he wants me to be. Sorry I tended to
          ramble on
          > occasion. Feel Free to ask any other questions!
          >
          > Blessings In Christ
          >
          > Kenny Folmar
          > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
          > www.ApostolicOutreachOfFaith.com
          >
        • Drew VanDyche
          Ken: I m not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don t you think it s a bit premature to
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
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            Ken:
            I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit premature to "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by the Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their hand. (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my experience, the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of pumping up their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them to wait poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth." This naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody." And if they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can you get? I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the like) are built.

            THE ZIGGURAT TEMPLE
            HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR - MALE)
            CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS- ALSO MALE
            ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
            THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR DUES
            JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND AFFIRM THEM AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
            THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY TO SERVE
            AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT INTO THE HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.

            That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the use of the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their duty to place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet they end up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."

            Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online ministry is not.

            Drew



            Kenneth Folmar <AOF@...> wrote:


            Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!

            I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21
            yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
            not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined this
            group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective of
            those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
            that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded and
            abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
            this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
            offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!

            Blessings in Christ;

            Kenny Folmar
            Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith







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            exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Drew VanDyche
            Actually it is not unusual to go from a charasmatic, pentecostal, apostolic existence to one of witchcraft, for it is all about the manifestation of power. It
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
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              Actually it is not unusual to go from a charasmatic, pentecostal, apostolic existence to one of witchcraft, for it is all about the manifestation of power. It is not at all unusual for the helpless to seek out the powerful. When I was a child, my life was so horrible and I felt so helpless, impotent against the forces that were controlling it, that I opened my soul to Satan and asked him for magic. I mean, if Samantha could just twitch her nose and gain control of the circumstances around her, then maybe there was something in it and I wanted power. I mean, in my fundamental evangelical free church of america, God didn't do miracles anymore, so where was the power there? Nobody ever talked about the fringe denominations of Christianity like the charasmatics in my small town of Turlock, CA. I believe that God protected me from a full demonic possession. But, I eventually established a pattern of using anger/rage to pull myself up by my bootstraps, for it was the only thing powerful
              enough to pull me up out of my depression and self-loathing. Witchcraft and magic, for most people, is not about occultic satanic worship, it is about the need to feel that there is something in life that you can control. The ritual of bell, book and candle provides for some that symbology and structure in the same way that iconic religions such as catholicism do for others.
              just some thoughts,
              drew

              Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:

              Thank you for sharing some of your testimony. You were fortunate to
              attend a bible college that allowed you to accept yourself. Was the
              bible college open to welcoming gays or was it the freedom of the
              college experience that allowed you to accept yourself?

              I think most of us here have experienced some type of rejection
              during our coming out process. Losing one's spiritual/religous
              identity is especially difficult. Like your experience with
              drugs/promiscuity/witchcraft, the tendency is to "throw the baby out
              with the bathwater" (as Alex would say) when re-assessing our
              religious beliefs.

              It's interesting to me that you would go from a pentacostal faith to
              witchcraft. I can't imagine a more extreme change, but I do see
              some similarities. I have limited knowledge about either faith, but
              it seems both are preoccupied with spiritual manifestations of some
              kind.

              When I came out of the ex-gay lifestyle and Christian
              fundamentalism, I thought attending a Unitarian church and MCC were
              pretty extreme (yes, I'm pretty vanilla in my ideas of rebellion).
              No matter how spiritually conflicted I've been, I can't break the
              habit having to attend services on Sunday mornings. I am sure this
              is due in part to the way my Christian grandmother raised me.

              I'm surprised from your Christian background that you didn't somehow
              end up exploring an ex-gay ministry. I have to ask, did your
              pentacostal church feel they could "heal" the homosexuality out of
              you? I know some Christians feel the pseudo-psychological approach
              of the ex-gay movement is not biblical and too worldly so I wonder
              if this why you missed out. (Although I'm truly thankful you missed
              out on the ex-gay experience.)

              Sorry for all the questions, but your journey sounds interesting.

              Norm!


              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Folmar" <AOF@a...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Thank you for your welcome. My reconciliation was a hard
              journey.
              > Like most I realized who exactly I was at a very young age. I
              began
              > attending an Apostolic Church at the age of thirteen(for those of
              you
              > who are familiar with the this type of church, it was affiliated
              with
              > the United Pentecostal Church International, also pretty much one
              of
              > the most conservative branches of christianity).I attend for many
              > years, when to bible college, where i learned to accept who I was.
              > Naturally this church rejected me, I was shattered, thus i went
              down a
              > path of drugs, multiple sexual partners, alcohol, even witchcraft.
              > Even traveling down the dangerous path of witchcraft I couldnt let
              go
              > go of Jesus(and of course he was holding on to), so I never
              embraced
              > the pagan beliefs in my heart. I found myself in constant
              conflict, I
              > wanted to serve the true GOD for who I was, and I knew I was made
              this
              > way so there has to be other like minded christians and well I
              > discovered them in an assembly in Phx, AZ(at the time i resided in
              > Charleston WV)known as Reconciling Pentecostal Assembly
              (Rpascottsdale.
              > com), a church affiliated with Reconcliing Pentecostals
              > International(Rpifellowship.com). My journey only lasted 2yrs and
              for
              > that I am greatful that the Lord would still yet pursue me. I
              realized
              > I was called, a long time ago(about 14), my mother had even said
              that
              > her pastor had told her that God had a special annointing on me
              while
              > i was still yet an ifant. I honestly believe God had a work for me
              to
              > do and he intended on me fulfilling it. My ministry began while I
              was
              > living in Sin when i founded a Yahoo Group such as this in 2002
              for
              > those affected by the same organization I had once affiliated
              with.
              > This past Novemeber I officially found Apostolic Outreach of Faith
              and
              > recently was able to launch our website(Feb 7 2005)www.
              > ApostolicOutreachofFaith.com . I do realized I am but a young man,
              but
              > God has taught me some rough lessons, which have molded(and
              continue
              > to do so)me to be what he wants me to be. Sorry I tended to
              ramble on
              > occasion. Feel Free to ask any other questions!
              >
              > Blessings In Christ
              >
              > Kenny Folmar
              > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
              > www.ApostolicOutreachOfFaith.com
              >





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              Drew VanDyche
              aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
              http://profiles.yahoo.com/vandyche



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Drew VanDyche
              clarification: joining a yahoo discussion group such as this one is the first step in ministering to those afflicted, founding a ministry is not. I mean, come
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
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                clarification: joining a yahoo discussion group such as this one is the first step in ministering to those afflicted, founding a ministry is not. I mean, come on "director?" - kind of smacks of the need to be needed and the grandiose ideas of a young man chomping at the bit to be released into his call (exercise the gifts, your gift will make room for you - titles are bestowed by others, not given to yourself)...

                Drew VanDyche <vandyche@...> wrote:Ken:
                I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit premature to "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by the Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their hand. (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my experience, the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of pumping up their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them to wait poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth." This naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody." And if they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can you get? I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the like) are built.

                THE ZIGGURAT TEMPLE
                HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR - MALE)
                CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS- ALSO MALE
                ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR DUES
                JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND AFFIRM THEM AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY TO SERVE
                AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT INTO THE HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.

                That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the use of the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their duty to place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet they end up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."

                Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online ministry is not.

                Drew



                Kenneth Folmar <AOF@...> wrote:


                Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!

                I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21
                yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
                not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined this
                group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective of
                those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
                that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded and
                abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
                this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
                offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!

                Blessings in Christ;

                Kenny Folmar
                Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith







                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                document.write('');

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                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

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                exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                document.write('');

                ---------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                Drew VanDyche
                aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
                http://profiles.yahoo.com/vandyche



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Pete Zayonce
                Drew, I am saddened that you feel in a position to judge Ken s efforts. It is also dismaying that you feel you are the holder of the prescriptive way to take
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
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                  Drew,

                  I am saddened that you feel in a position to judge Ken's efforts. It is
                  also dismaying that you feel you are the holder of the prescriptive way to
                  take "first steps".

                  I'd like to offer an alternative view: In an ER room, the Dr's nurses, and
                  other medics haven't necessarily been through the problem. But from
                  training they know what to do to ensure survival of the patient.

                  When I was in training for ministry (some 14 years ago & I'm 34 now) - we
                  were often encouraged to follow our vision. If Ken has a vision to found an
                  online ministry, then it's his journey and his pathway - not ours to judge.
                  Your drawing a comparison of Ken's ministry to ancient Babylonian cults, and
                  I personally find that very unfair.

                  Ken, I encourage you and everything that you're doing. Hopefully each light
                  (no matter how small or large) will contribute to change the understanding
                  of those who would seek to oppress us. Thank you for sharing your story,
                  and even though you haven't been through "ex-gay therapy" (which you
                  articulated quite well in your first post) I believe that your aim and
                  vision is admirable.

                  Pete.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Drew VanDyche [mailto:vandyche@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 8:10 PM
                  To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Praise the Lord!!


                  Ken:
                  I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and
                  this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit premature to
                  "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by the
                  Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their hand.
                  (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my experience,
                  the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of pumping up
                  their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them to wait
                  poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth." This
                  naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody." And if
                  they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can you get?
                  I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that
                  is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure
                  many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the like)
                  are built.

                  THE ZIGGURAT TEMPLE
                  HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR - MALE)
                  CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS- ALSO MALE
                  ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                  THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR DUES
                  JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND AFFIRM THEM
                  AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                  THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY TO
                  SERVE
                  AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT INTO THE
                  HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.

                  That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the use of
                  the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their duty to
                  place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet they end
                  up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."

                  Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online ministry
                  is not.

                  Drew



                  Kenneth Folmar <AOF@...> wrote:


                  Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!

                  I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21
                  yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
                  not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined this
                  group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective of
                  those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
                  that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded and
                  abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
                  this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
                  offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!

                  Blessings in Christ;

                  Kenny Folmar
                  Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith







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                • Kenneth Folmar
                  I concur Pete! I feel saddened to find judgement in this group. The title of Director, that I hold on pertains to my position in its operation. I am the sole
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I concur Pete! I feel saddened to find judgement in this group. The
                    title of Director, that I hold on pertains to my position in its
                    operation. I am the sole person resposible for its operation. Im
                    sorry that my ministry doesnt fit you criteria but yet it wasnt
                    designed for those who have a judgemental attitude. You will
                    definately be in my prayers that you can put this judgemental behavior
                    aside. Finally for discusion, Although I havent been through an "ex-
                    gay" experience, I have been afflicted by the church. I was publicly
                    rebuked(as custom in my old church organization), I had spent years
                    rejecting my family because I thought they were sinners. In this I
                    embraced my church as the only family I had. It was when I needed
                    Family most that my church diserted me, leaving me with those who I
                    had rejected as my only support. I in know way seek, anyones praise,
                    and no man ever encouraged me in my calling. You assumsions about my
                    faith having "young men setting on the edge of there seat to be called
                    out" is unfair. I was called by no man, but by God Almighty himself.

                    Kenny

                    --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce" <pete@g...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Drew,
                    >
                    > I am saddened that you feel in a position to judge Ken's efforts.
                    It is
                    > also dismaying that you feel you are the holder of the prescriptive
                    way to
                    > take "first steps".
                    >
                    > I'd like to offer an alternative view: In an ER room, the Dr's
                    nurses, and
                    > other medics haven't necessarily been through the problem. But from
                    > training they know what to do to ensure survival of the patient.
                    >
                    > When I was in training for ministry (some 14 years ago & I'm 34 now)
                    - we
                    > were often encouraged to follow our vision. If Ken has a vision to
                    found an
                    > online ministry, then it's his journey and his pathway - not ours to
                    judge.
                    > Your drawing a comparison of Ken's ministry to ancient Babylonian
                    cults, and
                    > I personally find that very unfair.
                    >
                    > Ken, I encourage you and everything that you're doing. Hopefully
                    each light
                    > (no matter how small or large) will contribute to change the
                    understanding
                    > of those who would seek to oppress us. Thank you for sharing your
                    story,
                    > and even though you haven't been through "ex-gay therapy" (which you
                    > articulated quite well in your first post) I believe that your aim
                    and
                    > vision is admirable.
                    >
                    > Pete.
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Drew VanDyche [mailto:vandyche@y...]
                    > Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 8:10 PM
                    > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Praise the Lord!!
                    >
                    >
                    > Ken:
                    > I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the
                    darkness, and
                    > this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit
                    premature to
                    > "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by
                    the
                    > Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their
                    hand.
                    > (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my
                    experience,
                    > the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of
                    pumping up
                    > their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them
                    to wait
                    > poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth.
                    " This
                    > naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody.
                    " And if
                    > they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can
                    you get?
                    > I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And
                    yet, that
                    > is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose
                    structure
                    > many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and
                    the like)
                    > are built.
                    >
                    > THE ZIGGURAT
                    TEMPLE
                    > HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR -
                    MALE)
                    > CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS-
                    ALSO MALE
                    > ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                    > THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR
                    DUES
                    > JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND
                    AFFIRM THEM
                    > AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                    > THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY
                    TO
                    > SERVE
                    > AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT
                    INTO THE
                    > HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.
                    >
                    > That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the
                    use of
                    > the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their
                    duty to
                    > place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet
                    they end
                    > up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."
                    >
                    > Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online
                    ministry
                    > is not.
                    >
                    > Drew
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Kenneth Folmar <AOF@a...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!
                    >
                    > I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a
                    21
                    > yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
                    > not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined
                    this
                    > group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective
                    of
                    > those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
                    > that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded
                    and
                    > abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
                    > this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
                    > offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!
                    >
                    > Blessings in Christ;
                    >
                    > Kenny Folmar
                    > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                    > document.write('');
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Norm
                    Wow, Drew, I have to agree with Pete and Kenneth. I m surprised by your snippy comments toward Ken and his honest sharing. Although you claimed that you did
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Wow, Drew, I have to agree with Pete and Kenneth. I'm surprised by
                      your snippy comments toward Ken and his honest sharing.

                      Although you claimed that you did not want to dampen Ken's
                      enthusiam, I see no other purpose to your remarks than to do just
                      that. I see no encouraging or empowering purpose to your comments.

                      Obviously Ken struck a nerve with you. But it seems you are
                      unfairly dumping your own baggage about ministry leaders onto him.

                      Norm!

                      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Drew VanDyche
                      <vandyche@y...> wrote:
                      > Ken:
                      > I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the
                      darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don't you think
                      it's a bit premature to "found a ministry" to help those who have
                      been wounded and abused by the Church when it seems that you
                      yourself have not suffered under their hand. (You cannot give out of
                      which you have not received.) From my experience, the
                      apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of
                      pumping up their young men with righteous energy and vitality and
                      inspire them to wait poised on the edge of their seat to be "called
                      out" and "sent forth." This naturally feeds into the desire of every
                      young man, to "be somebody." And if they can "be somebody" in the
                      Lord, then how much more approval can you get? I mean, if it's being
                      somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that is just the
                      way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure many
                      Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the
                      like) are built.
                      >
                      > THE ZIGGURAT
                      TEMPLE
                      > HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR -
                      MALE)
                      > CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS-
                      ALSO MALE
                      > ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                      > THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR
                      DUES
                      > JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND
                      AFFIRM THEM AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                      > THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR
                      DUTY TO SERVE
                      > AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT
                      INTO THE HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.
                      >
                      > That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in
                      the use of the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it
                      is their duty to place their stamp of approval upon every use of the
                      gift. And yet they end up stifling the gifts for the sake of being
                      in "order."
                      >
                      > Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online
                      ministry is not.
                      >
                      > Drew
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Norm
                      Sorry, I m kinda stupid today. I just realized Kenneth, Ken and Kenny are all the same. Norm!
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Sorry, I'm kinda stupid today. I just realized Kenneth, Ken and
                        Kenny are all the same.

                        Norm!
                      • Drew VanDyche
                        Peter: Unfortunately your analogy doesn t hold up. In an ER room, the goal is survival, patch that up, bandaid that up, the body is leaking like a siv, that
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Peter:
                          Unfortunately your analogy doesn't hold up.
                          In an ER room, the goal is survival, patch that up, bandaid that up, the body is leaking like a siv, that sort of thing. Even if medication is perscribed it doesn't heal. The body heals itself, the doctors and nurses are there to ensure that the patient is kept in a safe, sanitary environment so that the body can heal itself. The most that anyone else can do in this analogy that comes close is the need for a transfusion or transplant, where I actually would receive of your essence. Now, that would be a ministry I couldn't deny.

                          I have seen too many young men with grandiose dreams, encouraged to make their calling and election sure, full of the gifts of the spirit and yet without the character to back it up, fall prey to the sin of pride and come crashing down and wonder, gee why didn't God catch me? If you make pronouncements, God generally comes along with a test of that pronouncement. What if you find yourself in over your head. Overpromising and under-delivering. That is devastation to the poor soul who has sought help and found you lacking.

                          If this young man is ready to abandon himself to the Savior and learn obedience through suffering which is the Messiah's model, by all means, have at it. That which is eternal will stand the test.
                          -drew

                          Pete Zayonce <pete@...> wrote:

                          Drew,

                          I am saddened that you feel in a position to judge Ken's efforts. It is
                          also dismaying that you feel you are the holder of the prescriptive way to
                          take "first steps".

                          I'd like to offer an alternative view: In an ER room, the Dr's nurses, and
                          other medics haven't necessarily been through the problem. But from
                          training they know what to do to ensure survival of the patient.

                          When I was in training for ministry (some 14 years ago & I'm 34 now) - we
                          were often encouraged to follow our vision. If Ken has a vision to found an
                          online ministry, then it's his journey and his pathway - not ours to judge.
                          Your drawing a comparison of Ken's ministry to ancient Babylonian cults, and
                          I personally find that very unfair.

                          Ken, I encourage you and everything that you're doing. Hopefully each light
                          (no matter how small or large) will contribute to change the understanding
                          of those who would seek to oppress us. Thank you for sharing your story,
                          and even though you haven't been through "ex-gay therapy" (which you
                          articulated quite well in your first post) I believe that your aim and
                          vision is admirable.

                          Pete.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Drew VanDyche [mailto:vandyche@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 8:10 PM
                          To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Praise the Lord!!


                          Ken:
                          I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and
                          this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit premature to
                          "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by the
                          Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their hand.
                          (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my experience,
                          the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of pumping up
                          their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them to wait
                          poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth." This
                          naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody." And if
                          they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can you get?
                          I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that
                          is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure
                          many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the like)
                          are built.

                          THE ZIGGURAT TEMPLE
                          HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR - MALE)
                          CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS- ALSO MALE
                          ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                          THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR DUES
                          JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND AFFIRM THEM
                          AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                          THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY TO
                          SERVE
                          AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT INTO THE
                          HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.

                          That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the use of
                          the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their duty to
                          place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet they end
                          up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."

                          Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online ministry
                          is not.

                          Drew



                          Kenneth Folmar <AOF@...> wrote:


                          Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!

                          I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21
                          yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
                          not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined this
                          group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective of
                          those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
                          that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded and
                          abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
                          this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
                          offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!

                          Blessings in Christ;

                          Kenny Folmar
                          Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith







                          Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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                          exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          Yahoo! Groups Links











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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Drew VanDyche
                          Norm: You very well could be correct and I will search my heart on that one. (time passes) As I said in another post, my first response is often a knee jerk
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Norm:
                            You very well could be correct and I will search my heart on that one. (time passes)
                            As I said in another post, my first response is often a knee jerk reaction that I have to think
                            about after the fact. The kid has a desire to serve, let him serve. (more time passes)
                            So, by all means, don't let me dampen his enthusiasm. (thinking)
                            You know, I think I got that from my Dad, he was always the quintessential "realist" and killed a lot of my dreams. I've been bitter about that for a long time. (moment of reflection, heart hurts, tears)
                            My spiritual mom says that we become the thing that we hate, that we judge, I guess it's true.
                            Before all of my brothers here and before God - I confess my sin of lashing out and ask that you would forgive me and that Christ would forgive me also. sigh.

                            Drew
                            "Ah, what tangled webs we weave..."


                            Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:

                            Wow, Drew, I have to agree with Pete and Kenneth. I'm surprised by
                            your snippy comments toward Ken and his honest sharing.

                            Although you claimed that you did not want to dampen Ken's
                            enthusiam, I see no other purpose to your remarks than to do just
                            that. I see no encouraging or empowering purpose to your comments.

                            Obviously Ken struck a nerve with you. But it seems you are
                            unfairly dumping your own baggage about ministry leaders onto him.

                            Norm!

                            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Drew VanDyche
                            <vandyche@y...> wrote:
                            > Ken:
                            > I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the
                            darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don't you think
                            it's a bit premature to "found a ministry" to help those who have
                            been wounded and abused by the Church when it seems that you
                            yourself have not suffered under their hand. (You cannot give out of
                            which you have not received.) From my experience, the
                            apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of
                            pumping up their young men with righteous energy and vitality and
                            inspire them to wait poised on the edge of their seat to be "called
                            out" and "sent forth." This naturally feeds into the desire of every
                            young man, to "be somebody." And if they can "be somebody" in the
                            Lord, then how much more approval can you get? I mean, if it's being
                            somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that is just the
                            way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure many
                            Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the
                            like) are built.
                            >
                            > THE ZIGGURAT
                            TEMPLE
                            > HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR -
                            MALE)
                            > CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS-
                            ALSO MALE
                            > ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                            > THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR
                            DUES
                            > JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND
                            AFFIRM THEM AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                            > THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR
                            DUTY TO SERVE
                            > AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT
                            INTO THE HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.
                            >
                            > That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in
                            the use of the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it
                            is their duty to place their stamp of approval upon every use of the
                            gift. And yet they end up stifling the gifts for the sake of being
                            in "order."
                            >
                            > Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online
                            ministry is not.
                            >
                            > Drew
                            >
                            >
                            >




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                            Drew VanDyche
                            aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
                            http://profiles.yahoo.com/vandyche



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Drew VanDyche
                            Hmm, and I ve been Andrew, Drew and Andy. Coincidence? I think not! Norm wrote: Sorry, I m kinda stupid today. I just realized Kenneth,
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hmm, and I've been Andrew, Drew and Andy. Coincidence? I think not!

                              Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:
                              Sorry, I'm kinda stupid today. I just realized Kenneth, Ken and
                              Kenny are all the same.

                              Norm!




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                              Drew VanDyche
                              aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
                              http://profiles.yahoo.com/vandyche



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jayelle Wiggins
                              I went from Assemblies of God to Witchcraft--I was attracted to the strong, powerful, seven-days-a-week faith in both. I don t find the change extreme at
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 15, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I went from Assemblies of God to Witchcraft--I was attracted to the
                                strong, powerful, seven-days-a-week faith in both. I don't find the
                                change "extreme" at all. In my case, it seems more natural than
                                anything else.

                                B*B,
                                Jayelle

                                --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Drew VanDyche
                                <vandyche@y...> wrote:
                                > Actually it is not unusual to go from a charasmatic, pentecostal,
                                apostolic existence to one of witchcraft, for it is all about the
                                manifestation of power. It is not at all unusual for the helpless to
                                seek out the powerful. When I was a child, my life was so horrible
                                and I felt so helpless, impotent against the forces that were
                                controlling it, that I opened my soul to Satan and asked him for
                                magic. I mean, if Samantha could just twitch her nose and gain
                                control of the circumstances around her, then maybe there was
                                something in it and I wanted power. I mean, in my fundamental
                                evangelical free church of america, God didn't do miracles anymore,
                                so where was the power there? Nobody ever talked about the fringe
                                denominations of Christianity like the charasmatics in my small town
                                of Turlock, CA. I believe that God protected me from a full demonic
                                possession. But, I eventually established a pattern of using
                                anger/rage to pull myself up by my bootstraps, for it was the only
                                thing powerful
                                > enough to pull me up out of my depression and self-loathing.
                                Witchcraft and magic, for most people, is not about occultic satanic
                                worship, it is about the need to feel that there is something in
                                life that you can control. The ritual of bell, book and candle
                                provides for some that symbology and structure in the same way that
                                iconic religions such as catholicism do for others.
                                > just some thoughts,
                                > drew
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