Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Praise the Lord!!

Expand Messages
  • Kenneth Folmar
    Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus! I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21 yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ,
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 8, 2005
      Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!

      I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21
      yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
      not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined this
      group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective of
      those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
      that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded and
      abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
      this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
      offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!

      Blessings in Christ;

      Kenny Folmar
      Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
    • Norm
      Welcome to the group, Kenny! Your introduction as a gay pentacostal Christian is very intriguing. I hope you can share more about how you ve reconciled your
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 8, 2005
        Welcome to the group, Kenny! Your introduction as a gay pentacostal
        Christian is very intriguing. I hope you can share more about how
        you've reconciled your faith and sexuality.

        Although I was raised in a fundamentalist church with very
        conservative worship, I briefly attended a Foursquare church and
        another pentacostal-leaning church during my ex-gay days. The
        pentacostal faith appealed to me because it offered more tangible
        ways of expressing and experiencing faith.

        The members here cover a wide-range of ex-gay experiences. Are
        there any specific things you are interested in learning about?

        Also, what is the online ministry you've founded.

        Norm!

        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Folmar" <AOF@a...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!
        >
        > I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a
        21
        > yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I
        am
        > not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined
        this
        > group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective
        of
        > those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online
        ministry
        > that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded
        and
        > abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me
        on
        > this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
        > offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!
        >
        > Blessings in Christ;
        >
        > Kenny Folmar
        > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
      • Kenneth Folmar
        Thank you for your welcome. My reconciliation was a hard journey. Like most I realized who exactly I was at a very young age. I began attending an Apostolic
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 8, 2005
          Thank you for your welcome. My reconciliation was a hard journey.
          Like most I realized who exactly I was at a very young age. I began
          attending an Apostolic Church at the age of thirteen(for those of you
          who are familiar with the this type of church, it was affiliated with
          the United Pentecostal Church International, also pretty much one of
          the most conservative branches of christianity).I attend for many
          years, when to bible college, where i learned to accept who I was.
          Naturally this church rejected me, I was shattered, thus i went down a
          path of drugs, multiple sexual partners, alcohol, even witchcraft.
          Even traveling down the dangerous path of witchcraft I couldnt let go
          go of Jesus(and of course he was holding on to), so I never embraced
          the pagan beliefs in my heart. I found myself in constant conflict, I
          wanted to serve the true GOD for who I was, and I knew I was made this
          way so there has to be other like minded christians and well I
          discovered them in an assembly in Phx, AZ(at the time i resided in
          Charleston WV)known as Reconciling Pentecostal Assembly(Rpascottsdale.
          com), a church affiliated with Reconcliing Pentecostals
          International(Rpifellowship.com). My journey only lasted 2yrs and for
          that I am greatful that the Lord would still yet pursue me. I realized
          I was called, a long time ago(about 14), my mother had even said that
          her pastor had told her that God had a special annointing on me while
          i was still yet an ifant. I honestly believe God had a work for me to
          do and he intended on me fulfilling it. My ministry began while I was
          living in Sin when i founded a Yahoo Group such as this in 2002 for
          those affected by the same organization I had once affiliated with.
          This past Novemeber I officially found Apostolic Outreach of Faith and
          recently was able to launch our website(Feb 7 2005)www.
          ApostolicOutreachofFaith.com . I do realized I am but a young man, but
          God has taught me some rough lessons, which have molded(and continue
          to do so)me to be what he wants me to be. Sorry I tended to ramble on
          occasion. Feel Free to ask any other questions!

          Blessings In Christ

          Kenny Folmar
          Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
          www.ApostolicOutreachOfFaith.com


          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Welcome to the group, Kenny! Your introduction as a gay pentacostal
          > Christian is very intriguing. I hope you can share more about how
          > you've reconciled your faith and sexuality.
          >
          > Although I was raised in a fundamentalist church with very
          > conservative worship, I briefly attended a Foursquare church and
          > another pentacostal-leaning church during my ex-gay days. The
          > pentacostal faith appealed to me because it offered more tangible
          > ways of expressing and experiencing faith.
          >
          > The members here cover a wide-range of ex-gay experiences. Are
          > there any specific things you are interested in learning about?
          >
          > Also, what is the online ministry you've founded.
          >
          > Norm!
          >
          > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Folmar" <AOF@a...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!
          > >
          > > I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a
          > 21
          > > yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I
          > am
          > > not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined
          > this
          > > group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective
          > of
          > > those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online
          > ministry
          > > that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded
          > and
          > > abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me
          > on
          > > this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
          > > offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!
          > >
          > > Blessings in Christ;
          > >
          > > Kenny Folmar
          > > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
        • Norm
          Thank you for sharing some of your testimony. You were fortunate to attend a bible college that allowed you to accept yourself. Was the bible college open to
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 8, 2005
            Thank you for sharing some of your testimony. You were fortunate to
            attend a bible college that allowed you to accept yourself. Was the
            bible college open to welcoming gays or was it the freedom of the
            college experience that allowed you to accept yourself?

            I think most of us here have experienced some type of rejection
            during our coming out process. Losing one's spiritual/religous
            identity is especially difficult. Like your experience with
            drugs/promiscuity/witchcraft, the tendency is to "throw the baby out
            with the bathwater" (as Alex would say) when re-assessing our
            religious beliefs.

            It's interesting to me that you would go from a pentacostal faith to
            witchcraft. I can't imagine a more extreme change, but I do see
            some similarities. I have limited knowledge about either faith, but
            it seems both are preoccupied with spiritual manifestations of some
            kind.

            When I came out of the ex-gay lifestyle and Christian
            fundamentalism, I thought attending a Unitarian church and MCC were
            pretty extreme (yes, I'm pretty vanilla in my ideas of rebellion).
            No matter how spiritually conflicted I've been, I can't break the
            habit having to attend services on Sunday mornings. I am sure this
            is due in part to the way my Christian grandmother raised me.

            I'm surprised from your Christian background that you didn't somehow
            end up exploring an ex-gay ministry. I have to ask, did your
            pentacostal church feel they could "heal" the homosexuality out of
            you? I know some Christians feel the pseudo-psychological approach
            of the ex-gay movement is not biblical and too worldly so I wonder
            if this why you missed out. (Although I'm truly thankful you missed
            out on the ex-gay experience.)

            Sorry for all the questions, but your journey sounds interesting.

            Norm!


            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Folmar" <AOF@a...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > Thank you for your welcome. My reconciliation was a hard
            journey.
            > Like most I realized who exactly I was at a very young age. I
            began
            > attending an Apostolic Church at the age of thirteen(for those of
            you
            > who are familiar with the this type of church, it was affiliated
            with
            > the United Pentecostal Church International, also pretty much one
            of
            > the most conservative branches of christianity).I attend for many
            > years, when to bible college, where i learned to accept who I was.
            > Naturally this church rejected me, I was shattered, thus i went
            down a
            > path of drugs, multiple sexual partners, alcohol, even witchcraft.
            > Even traveling down the dangerous path of witchcraft I couldnt let
            go
            > go of Jesus(and of course he was holding on to), so I never
            embraced
            > the pagan beliefs in my heart. I found myself in constant
            conflict, I
            > wanted to serve the true GOD for who I was, and I knew I was made
            this
            > way so there has to be other like minded christians and well I
            > discovered them in an assembly in Phx, AZ(at the time i resided in
            > Charleston WV)known as Reconciling Pentecostal Assembly
            (Rpascottsdale.
            > com), a church affiliated with Reconcliing Pentecostals
            > International(Rpifellowship.com). My journey only lasted 2yrs and
            for
            > that I am greatful that the Lord would still yet pursue me. I
            realized
            > I was called, a long time ago(about 14), my mother had even said
            that
            > her pastor had told her that God had a special annointing on me
            while
            > i was still yet an ifant. I honestly believe God had a work for me
            to
            > do and he intended on me fulfilling it. My ministry began while I
            was
            > living in Sin when i founded a Yahoo Group such as this in 2002
            for
            > those affected by the same organization I had once affiliated
            with.
            > This past Novemeber I officially found Apostolic Outreach of Faith
            and
            > recently was able to launch our website(Feb 7 2005)www.
            > ApostolicOutreachofFaith.com . I do realized I am but a young man,
            but
            > God has taught me some rough lessons, which have molded(and
            continue
            > to do so)me to be what he wants me to be. Sorry I tended to
            ramble on
            > occasion. Feel Free to ask any other questions!
            >
            > Blessings In Christ
            >
            > Kenny Folmar
            > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
            > www.ApostolicOutreachOfFaith.com
            >
          • Drew VanDyche
            Ken: I m not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don t you think it s a bit premature to
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
              Ken:
              I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit premature to "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by the Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their hand. (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my experience, the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of pumping up their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them to wait poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth." This naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody." And if they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can you get? I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the like) are built.

              THE ZIGGURAT TEMPLE
              HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR - MALE)
              CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS- ALSO MALE
              ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
              THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR DUES
              JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND AFFIRM THEM AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
              THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY TO SERVE
              AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT INTO THE HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.

              That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the use of the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their duty to place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet they end up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."

              Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online ministry is not.

              Drew



              Kenneth Folmar <AOF@...> wrote:


              Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!

              I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21
              yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
              not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined this
              group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective of
              those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
              that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded and
              abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
              this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
              offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!

              Blessings in Christ;

              Kenny Folmar
              Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith







              Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
              document.write('');

              ---------------------------------
              Yahoo! Groups Links

              To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Drew VanDyche
              Actually it is not unusual to go from a charasmatic, pentecostal, apostolic existence to one of witchcraft, for it is all about the manifestation of power. It
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                Actually it is not unusual to go from a charasmatic, pentecostal, apostolic existence to one of witchcraft, for it is all about the manifestation of power. It is not at all unusual for the helpless to seek out the powerful. When I was a child, my life was so horrible and I felt so helpless, impotent against the forces that were controlling it, that I opened my soul to Satan and asked him for magic. I mean, if Samantha could just twitch her nose and gain control of the circumstances around her, then maybe there was something in it and I wanted power. I mean, in my fundamental evangelical free church of america, God didn't do miracles anymore, so where was the power there? Nobody ever talked about the fringe denominations of Christianity like the charasmatics in my small town of Turlock, CA. I believe that God protected me from a full demonic possession. But, I eventually established a pattern of using anger/rage to pull myself up by my bootstraps, for it was the only thing powerful
                enough to pull me up out of my depression and self-loathing. Witchcraft and magic, for most people, is not about occultic satanic worship, it is about the need to feel that there is something in life that you can control. The ritual of bell, book and candle provides for some that symbology and structure in the same way that iconic religions such as catholicism do for others.
                just some thoughts,
                drew

                Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:

                Thank you for sharing some of your testimony. You were fortunate to
                attend a bible college that allowed you to accept yourself. Was the
                bible college open to welcoming gays or was it the freedom of the
                college experience that allowed you to accept yourself?

                I think most of us here have experienced some type of rejection
                during our coming out process. Losing one's spiritual/religous
                identity is especially difficult. Like your experience with
                drugs/promiscuity/witchcraft, the tendency is to "throw the baby out
                with the bathwater" (as Alex would say) when re-assessing our
                religious beliefs.

                It's interesting to me that you would go from a pentacostal faith to
                witchcraft. I can't imagine a more extreme change, but I do see
                some similarities. I have limited knowledge about either faith, but
                it seems both are preoccupied with spiritual manifestations of some
                kind.

                When I came out of the ex-gay lifestyle and Christian
                fundamentalism, I thought attending a Unitarian church and MCC were
                pretty extreme (yes, I'm pretty vanilla in my ideas of rebellion).
                No matter how spiritually conflicted I've been, I can't break the
                habit having to attend services on Sunday mornings. I am sure this
                is due in part to the way my Christian grandmother raised me.

                I'm surprised from your Christian background that you didn't somehow
                end up exploring an ex-gay ministry. I have to ask, did your
                pentacostal church feel they could "heal" the homosexuality out of
                you? I know some Christians feel the pseudo-psychological approach
                of the ex-gay movement is not biblical and too worldly so I wonder
                if this why you missed out. (Although I'm truly thankful you missed
                out on the ex-gay experience.)

                Sorry for all the questions, but your journey sounds interesting.

                Norm!


                --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth Folmar" <AOF@a...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > Thank you for your welcome. My reconciliation was a hard
                journey.
                > Like most I realized who exactly I was at a very young age. I
                began
                > attending an Apostolic Church at the age of thirteen(for those of
                you
                > who are familiar with the this type of church, it was affiliated
                with
                > the United Pentecostal Church International, also pretty much one
                of
                > the most conservative branches of christianity).I attend for many
                > years, when to bible college, where i learned to accept who I was.
                > Naturally this church rejected me, I was shattered, thus i went
                down a
                > path of drugs, multiple sexual partners, alcohol, even witchcraft.
                > Even traveling down the dangerous path of witchcraft I couldnt let
                go
                > go of Jesus(and of course he was holding on to), so I never
                embraced
                > the pagan beliefs in my heart. I found myself in constant
                conflict, I
                > wanted to serve the true GOD for who I was, and I knew I was made
                this
                > way so there has to be other like minded christians and well I
                > discovered them in an assembly in Phx, AZ(at the time i resided in
                > Charleston WV)known as Reconciling Pentecostal Assembly
                (Rpascottsdale.
                > com), a church affiliated with Reconcliing Pentecostals
                > International(Rpifellowship.com). My journey only lasted 2yrs and
                for
                > that I am greatful that the Lord would still yet pursue me. I
                realized
                > I was called, a long time ago(about 14), my mother had even said
                that
                > her pastor had told her that God had a special annointing on me
                while
                > i was still yet an ifant. I honestly believe God had a work for me
                to
                > do and he intended on me fulfilling it. My ministry began while I
                was
                > living in Sin when i founded a Yahoo Group such as this in 2002
                for
                > those affected by the same organization I had once affiliated
                with.
                > This past Novemeber I officially found Apostolic Outreach of Faith
                and
                > recently was able to launch our website(Feb 7 2005)www.
                > ApostolicOutreachofFaith.com . I do realized I am but a young man,
                but
                > God has taught me some rough lessons, which have molded(and
                continue
                > to do so)me to be what he wants me to be. Sorry I tended to
                ramble on
                > occasion. Feel Free to ask any other questions!
                >
                > Blessings In Christ
                >
                > Kenny Folmar
                > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
                > www.ApostolicOutreachOfFaith.com
                >





                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                document.write('');

                ---------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links

                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                Drew VanDyche
                aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
                http://profiles.yahoo.com/vandyche



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Drew VanDyche
                clarification: joining a yahoo discussion group such as this one is the first step in ministering to those afflicted, founding a ministry is not. I mean, come
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                  clarification: joining a yahoo discussion group such as this one is the first step in ministering to those afflicted, founding a ministry is not. I mean, come on "director?" - kind of smacks of the need to be needed and the grandiose ideas of a young man chomping at the bit to be released into his call (exercise the gifts, your gift will make room for you - titles are bestowed by others, not given to yourself)...

                  Drew VanDyche <vandyche@...> wrote:Ken:
                  I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit premature to "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by the Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their hand. (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my experience, the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of pumping up their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them to wait poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth." This naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody." And if they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can you get? I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the like) are built.

                  THE ZIGGURAT TEMPLE
                  HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR - MALE)
                  CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS- ALSO MALE
                  ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                  THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR DUES
                  JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND AFFIRM THEM AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                  THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY TO SERVE
                  AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT INTO THE HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.

                  That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the use of the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their duty to place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet they end up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."

                  Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online ministry is not.

                  Drew



                  Kenneth Folmar <AOF@...> wrote:


                  Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!

                  I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21
                  yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
                  not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined this
                  group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective of
                  those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
                  that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded and
                  abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
                  this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
                  offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!

                  Blessings in Christ;

                  Kenny Folmar
                  Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith







                  Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  document.write('');

                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                  Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                  document.write('');

                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                  Drew VanDyche
                  aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
                  http://profiles.yahoo.com/vandyche



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Pete Zayonce
                  Drew, I am saddened that you feel in a position to judge Ken s efforts. It is also dismaying that you feel you are the holder of the prescriptive way to take
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                    Drew,

                    I am saddened that you feel in a position to judge Ken's efforts. It is
                    also dismaying that you feel you are the holder of the prescriptive way to
                    take "first steps".

                    I'd like to offer an alternative view: In an ER room, the Dr's nurses, and
                    other medics haven't necessarily been through the problem. But from
                    training they know what to do to ensure survival of the patient.

                    When I was in training for ministry (some 14 years ago & I'm 34 now) - we
                    were often encouraged to follow our vision. If Ken has a vision to found an
                    online ministry, then it's his journey and his pathway - not ours to judge.
                    Your drawing a comparison of Ken's ministry to ancient Babylonian cults, and
                    I personally find that very unfair.

                    Ken, I encourage you and everything that you're doing. Hopefully each light
                    (no matter how small or large) will contribute to change the understanding
                    of those who would seek to oppress us. Thank you for sharing your story,
                    and even though you haven't been through "ex-gay therapy" (which you
                    articulated quite well in your first post) I believe that your aim and
                    vision is admirable.

                    Pete.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Drew VanDyche [mailto:vandyche@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 8:10 PM
                    To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Praise the Lord!!


                    Ken:
                    I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and
                    this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit premature to
                    "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by the
                    Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their hand.
                    (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my experience,
                    the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of pumping up
                    their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them to wait
                    poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth." This
                    naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody." And if
                    they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can you get?
                    I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that
                    is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure
                    many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the like)
                    are built.

                    THE ZIGGURAT TEMPLE
                    HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR - MALE)
                    CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS- ALSO MALE
                    ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                    THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR DUES
                    JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND AFFIRM THEM
                    AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                    THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY TO
                    SERVE
                    AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT INTO THE
                    HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.

                    That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the use of
                    the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their duty to
                    place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet they end
                    up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."

                    Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online ministry
                    is not.

                    Drew



                    Kenneth Folmar <AOF@...> wrote:


                    Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!

                    I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21
                    yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
                    not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined this
                    group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective of
                    those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
                    that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded and
                    abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
                    this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
                    offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!

                    Blessings in Christ;

                    Kenny Folmar
                    Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith







                    Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                    document.write('');

                    ---------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                    To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Kenneth Folmar
                    I concur Pete! I feel saddened to find judgement in this group. The title of Director, that I hold on pertains to my position in its operation. I am the sole
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                      I concur Pete! I feel saddened to find judgement in this group. The
                      title of Director, that I hold on pertains to my position in its
                      operation. I am the sole person resposible for its operation. Im
                      sorry that my ministry doesnt fit you criteria but yet it wasnt
                      designed for those who have a judgemental attitude. You will
                      definately be in my prayers that you can put this judgemental behavior
                      aside. Finally for discusion, Although I havent been through an "ex-
                      gay" experience, I have been afflicted by the church. I was publicly
                      rebuked(as custom in my old church organization), I had spent years
                      rejecting my family because I thought they were sinners. In this I
                      embraced my church as the only family I had. It was when I needed
                      Family most that my church diserted me, leaving me with those who I
                      had rejected as my only support. I in know way seek, anyones praise,
                      and no man ever encouraged me in my calling. You assumsions about my
                      faith having "young men setting on the edge of there seat to be called
                      out" is unfair. I was called by no man, but by God Almighty himself.

                      Kenny

                      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce" <pete@g...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Drew,
                      >
                      > I am saddened that you feel in a position to judge Ken's efforts.
                      It is
                      > also dismaying that you feel you are the holder of the prescriptive
                      way to
                      > take "first steps".
                      >
                      > I'd like to offer an alternative view: In an ER room, the Dr's
                      nurses, and
                      > other medics haven't necessarily been through the problem. But from
                      > training they know what to do to ensure survival of the patient.
                      >
                      > When I was in training for ministry (some 14 years ago & I'm 34 now)
                      - we
                      > were often encouraged to follow our vision. If Ken has a vision to
                      found an
                      > online ministry, then it's his journey and his pathway - not ours to
                      judge.
                      > Your drawing a comparison of Ken's ministry to ancient Babylonian
                      cults, and
                      > I personally find that very unfair.
                      >
                      > Ken, I encourage you and everything that you're doing. Hopefully
                      each light
                      > (no matter how small or large) will contribute to change the
                      understanding
                      > of those who would seek to oppress us. Thank you for sharing your
                      story,
                      > and even though you haven't been through "ex-gay therapy" (which you
                      > articulated quite well in your first post) I believe that your aim
                      and
                      > vision is admirable.
                      >
                      > Pete.
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Drew VanDyche [mailto:vandyche@y...]
                      > Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 8:10 PM
                      > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Praise the Lord!!
                      >
                      >
                      > Ken:
                      > I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the
                      darkness, and
                      > this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit
                      premature to
                      > "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by
                      the
                      > Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their
                      hand.
                      > (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my
                      experience,
                      > the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of
                      pumping up
                      > their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them
                      to wait
                      > poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth.
                      " This
                      > naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody.
                      " And if
                      > they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can
                      you get?
                      > I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And
                      yet, that
                      > is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose
                      structure
                      > many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and
                      the like)
                      > are built.
                      >
                      > THE ZIGGURAT
                      TEMPLE
                      > HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR -
                      MALE)
                      > CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS-
                      ALSO MALE
                      > ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                      > THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR
                      DUES
                      > JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND
                      AFFIRM THEM
                      > AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                      > THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY
                      TO
                      > SERVE
                      > AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT
                      INTO THE
                      > HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.
                      >
                      > That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the
                      use of
                      > the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their
                      duty to
                      > place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet
                      they end
                      > up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."
                      >
                      > Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online
                      ministry
                      > is not.
                      >
                      > Drew
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Kenneth Folmar <AOF@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!
                      >
                      > I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a
                      21
                      > yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
                      > not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined
                      this
                      > group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective
                      of
                      > those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
                      > that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded
                      and
                      > abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
                      > this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
                      > offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!
                      >
                      > Blessings in Christ;
                      >
                      > Kenny Folmar
                      > Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                      > document.write('');
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      Service.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Norm
                      Wow, Drew, I have to agree with Pete and Kenneth. I m surprised by your snippy comments toward Ken and his honest sharing. Although you claimed that you did
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                        Wow, Drew, I have to agree with Pete and Kenneth. I'm surprised by
                        your snippy comments toward Ken and his honest sharing.

                        Although you claimed that you did not want to dampen Ken's
                        enthusiam, I see no other purpose to your remarks than to do just
                        that. I see no encouraging or empowering purpose to your comments.

                        Obviously Ken struck a nerve with you. But it seems you are
                        unfairly dumping your own baggage about ministry leaders onto him.

                        Norm!

                        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Drew VanDyche
                        <vandyche@y...> wrote:
                        > Ken:
                        > I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the
                        darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don't you think
                        it's a bit premature to "found a ministry" to help those who have
                        been wounded and abused by the Church when it seems that you
                        yourself have not suffered under their hand. (You cannot give out of
                        which you have not received.) From my experience, the
                        apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of
                        pumping up their young men with righteous energy and vitality and
                        inspire them to wait poised on the edge of their seat to be "called
                        out" and "sent forth." This naturally feeds into the desire of every
                        young man, to "be somebody." And if they can "be somebody" in the
                        Lord, then how much more approval can you get? I mean, if it's being
                        somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that is just the
                        way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure many
                        Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the
                        like) are built.
                        >
                        > THE ZIGGURAT
                        TEMPLE
                        > HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR -
                        MALE)
                        > CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS-
                        ALSO MALE
                        > ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                        > THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR
                        DUES
                        > JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND
                        AFFIRM THEM AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                        > THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR
                        DUTY TO SERVE
                        > AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT
                        INTO THE HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.
                        >
                        > That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in
                        the use of the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it
                        is their duty to place their stamp of approval upon every use of the
                        gift. And yet they end up stifling the gifts for the sake of being
                        in "order."
                        >
                        > Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online
                        ministry is not.
                        >
                        > Drew
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Norm
                        Sorry, I m kinda stupid today. I just realized Kenneth, Ken and Kenny are all the same. Norm!
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                          Sorry, I'm kinda stupid today. I just realized Kenneth, Ken and
                          Kenny are all the same.

                          Norm!
                        • Drew VanDyche
                          Peter: Unfortunately your analogy doesn t hold up. In an ER room, the goal is survival, patch that up, bandaid that up, the body is leaking like a siv, that
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                            Peter:
                            Unfortunately your analogy doesn't hold up.
                            In an ER room, the goal is survival, patch that up, bandaid that up, the body is leaking like a siv, that sort of thing. Even if medication is perscribed it doesn't heal. The body heals itself, the doctors and nurses are there to ensure that the patient is kept in a safe, sanitary environment so that the body can heal itself. The most that anyone else can do in this analogy that comes close is the need for a transfusion or transplant, where I actually would receive of your essence. Now, that would be a ministry I couldn't deny.

                            I have seen too many young men with grandiose dreams, encouraged to make their calling and election sure, full of the gifts of the spirit and yet without the character to back it up, fall prey to the sin of pride and come crashing down and wonder, gee why didn't God catch me? If you make pronouncements, God generally comes along with a test of that pronouncement. What if you find yourself in over your head. Overpromising and under-delivering. That is devastation to the poor soul who has sought help and found you lacking.

                            If this young man is ready to abandon himself to the Savior and learn obedience through suffering which is the Messiah's model, by all means, have at it. That which is eternal will stand the test.
                            -drew

                            Pete Zayonce <pete@...> wrote:

                            Drew,

                            I am saddened that you feel in a position to judge Ken's efforts. It is
                            also dismaying that you feel you are the holder of the prescriptive way to
                            take "first steps".

                            I'd like to offer an alternative view: In an ER room, the Dr's nurses, and
                            other medics haven't necessarily been through the problem. But from
                            training they know what to do to ensure survival of the patient.

                            When I was in training for ministry (some 14 years ago & I'm 34 now) - we
                            were often encouraged to follow our vision. If Ken has a vision to found an
                            online ministry, then it's his journey and his pathway - not ours to judge.
                            Your drawing a comparison of Ken's ministry to ancient Babylonian cults, and
                            I personally find that very unfair.

                            Ken, I encourage you and everything that you're doing. Hopefully each light
                            (no matter how small or large) will contribute to change the understanding
                            of those who would seek to oppress us. Thank you for sharing your story,
                            and even though you haven't been through "ex-gay therapy" (which you
                            articulated quite well in your first post) I believe that your aim and
                            vision is admirable.

                            Pete.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Drew VanDyche [mailto:vandyche@...]
                            Sent: Wednesday, 9 February 2005 8:10 PM
                            To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Praise the Lord!!


                            Ken:
                            I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the darkness, and
                            this will probably piss you off, but don't you think it's a bit premature to
                            "found a ministry" to help those who have been wounded and abused by the
                            Church when it seems that you yourself have not suffered under their hand.
                            (You cannot give out of which you have not received.) From my experience,
                            the apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of pumping up
                            their young men with righteous energy and vitality and inspire them to wait
                            poised on the edge of their seat to be "called out" and "sent forth." This
                            naturally feeds into the desire of every young man, to "be somebody." And if
                            they can "be somebody" in the Lord, then how much more approval can you get?
                            I mean, if it's being somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that
                            is just the way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure
                            many Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the like)
                            are built.

                            THE ZIGGURAT TEMPLE
                            HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR - MALE)
                            CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS- ALSO MALE
                            ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                            THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR DUES
                            JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND AFFIRM THEM
                            AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                            THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR DUTY TO
                            SERVE
                            AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT INTO THE
                            HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.

                            That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in the use of
                            the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it is their duty to
                            place their stamp of approval upon every use of the gift. And yet they end
                            up stifling the gifts for the sake of being in "order."

                            Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online ministry
                            is not.

                            Drew



                            Kenneth Folmar <AOF@...> wrote:


                            Greetings in the Mighty Name of Jesus!

                            I am new to the group so I thought I would introduce myself. Im a 21
                            yr old Apostolic/Pentecostal residing in Phx, AZ, who is gay. I am
                            not an ex-gay nor have I ever been involved with such. I joined this
                            group to further my understand this movement, from the perspective of
                            those that were afflicted by it. I have founded an online ministry
                            that reaches out to those in our community that have been wounded and
                            abused by the "Church". I hope that each of you can enlighten me on
                            this issue and would greatly enjoy any engaging converstaion you
                            offer. I hope that each of you are having a truly blessed week!!!

                            Blessings in Christ;

                            Kenny Folmar
                            Director; Apostolic Outreach of Faith







                            Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                            document.write('');

                            ---------------------------------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            Yahoo! Groups Links











                            Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                            document.write('');

                            ---------------------------------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links

                            To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Drew VanDyche
                            Norm: You very well could be correct and I will search my heart on that one. (time passes) As I said in another post, my first response is often a knee jerk
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                              Norm:
                              You very well could be correct and I will search my heart on that one. (time passes)
                              As I said in another post, my first response is often a knee jerk reaction that I have to think
                              about after the fact. The kid has a desire to serve, let him serve. (more time passes)
                              So, by all means, don't let me dampen his enthusiasm. (thinking)
                              You know, I think I got that from my Dad, he was always the quintessential "realist" and killed a lot of my dreams. I've been bitter about that for a long time. (moment of reflection, heart hurts, tears)
                              My spiritual mom says that we become the thing that we hate, that we judge, I guess it's true.
                              Before all of my brothers here and before God - I confess my sin of lashing out and ask that you would forgive me and that Christ would forgive me also. sigh.

                              Drew
                              "Ah, what tangled webs we weave..."


                              Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:

                              Wow, Drew, I have to agree with Pete and Kenneth. I'm surprised by
                              your snippy comments toward Ken and his honest sharing.

                              Although you claimed that you did not want to dampen Ken's
                              enthusiam, I see no other purpose to your remarks than to do just
                              that. I see no encouraging or empowering purpose to your comments.

                              Obviously Ken struck a nerve with you. But it seems you are
                              unfairly dumping your own baggage about ministry leaders onto him.

                              Norm!

                              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Drew VanDyche
                              <vandyche@y...> wrote:
                              > Ken:
                              > I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm to be a light in the
                              darkness, and this will probably piss you off, but don't you think
                              it's a bit premature to "found a ministry" to help those who have
                              been wounded and abused by the Church when it seems that you
                              yourself have not suffered under their hand. (You cannot give out of
                              which you have not received.) From my experience, the
                              apostolic/pentacostal sectors of Christianity have a habit of
                              pumping up their young men with righteous energy and vitality and
                              inspire them to wait poised on the edge of their seat to be "called
                              out" and "sent forth." This naturally feeds into the desire of every
                              young man, to "be somebody." And if they can "be somebody" in the
                              Lord, then how much more approval can you get? I mean, if it's being
                              somebody in God, it must be good, right? And yet, that is just the
                              way that ziggurat temples (pagan temple upon whose structure many
                              Christian Churches of today, especially Assemblies of God and the
                              like) are built.
                              >
                              > THE ZIGGURAT
                              TEMPLE
                              > HEAD HONCHO PRIEST (HEAD PASTOR -
                              MALE)
                              > CORE GROUP OF CONFIDANTE ASSOCIATE PASTORS-
                              ALSO MALE
                              > ELDERS AND DEACONS OF THE CHURCH - USUALLY MALE
                              > THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CHURCH WHO ARE PUTTING IN THEIR
                              DUES
                              > JUST WAITING FOR THE PASTOR TO CALL THEM OUT AND
                              AFFIRM THEM AND THE CALL OF GOD ON THEIR LIVES
                              > THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH WHO DO MOST OF THE WORK FOR IT IS THEIR
                              DUTY TO SERVE
                              > AND BELOW THAT, THE PEON MEN AND WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO DON'T FIT
                              INTO THE HIERARCHY OF THE POWER STRUCTURE.
                              >
                              > That type of structure is ripe for abuse. And when you bring in
                              the use of the gifts, then you have those watchdogs who feel that it
                              is their duty to place their stamp of approval upon every use of the
                              gift. And yet they end up stifling the gifts for the sake of being
                              in "order."
                              >
                              > Joining a group such as this is the first step. Founding an online
                              ministry is not.
                              >
                              > Drew
                              >
                              >
                              >




                              Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                              document.write('');

                              ---------------------------------
                              Yahoo! Groups Links

                              To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

                              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                              Drew VanDyche
                              aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
                              http://profiles.yahoo.com/vandyche



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Drew VanDyche
                              Hmm, and I ve been Andrew, Drew and Andy. Coincidence? I think not! Norm wrote: Sorry, I m kinda stupid today. I just realized Kenneth,
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 9, 2005
                                Hmm, and I've been Andrew, Drew and Andy. Coincidence? I think not!

                                Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:
                                Sorry, I'm kinda stupid today. I just realized Kenneth, Ken and
                                Kenny are all the same.

                                Norm!




                                Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                                document.write('');

                                ---------------------------------
                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                                To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/

                                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




                                Drew VanDyche
                                aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
                                http://profiles.yahoo.com/vandyche



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jayelle Wiggins
                                I went from Assemblies of God to Witchcraft--I was attracted to the strong, powerful, seven-days-a-week faith in both. I don t find the change extreme at
                                Message 15 of 15 , Feb 15, 2005
                                  I went from Assemblies of God to Witchcraft--I was attracted to the
                                  strong, powerful, seven-days-a-week faith in both. I don't find the
                                  change "extreme" at all. In my case, it seems more natural than
                                  anything else.

                                  B*B,
                                  Jayelle

                                  --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Drew VanDyche
                                  <vandyche@y...> wrote:
                                  > Actually it is not unusual to go from a charasmatic, pentecostal,
                                  apostolic existence to one of witchcraft, for it is all about the
                                  manifestation of power. It is not at all unusual for the helpless to
                                  seek out the powerful. When I was a child, my life was so horrible
                                  and I felt so helpless, impotent against the forces that were
                                  controlling it, that I opened my soul to Satan and asked him for
                                  magic. I mean, if Samantha could just twitch her nose and gain
                                  control of the circumstances around her, then maybe there was
                                  something in it and I wanted power. I mean, in my fundamental
                                  evangelical free church of america, God didn't do miracles anymore,
                                  so where was the power there? Nobody ever talked about the fringe
                                  denominations of Christianity like the charasmatics in my small town
                                  of Turlock, CA. I believe that God protected me from a full demonic
                                  possession. But, I eventually established a pattern of using
                                  anger/rage to pull myself up by my bootstraps, for it was the only
                                  thing powerful
                                  > enough to pull me up out of my depression and self-loathing.
                                  Witchcraft and magic, for most people, is not about occultic satanic
                                  worship, it is about the need to feel that there is something in
                                  life that you can control. The ritual of bell, book and candle
                                  provides for some that symbology and structure in the same way that
                                  iconic religions such as catholicism do for others.
                                  > just some thoughts,
                                  > drew
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.