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RE: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: On disbanded groups

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  • Pete Zayonce
    Hi everyone, I ve been watching the past few days with interest and thought I would speak up about the situation in Australia. I m not sure what the case is in
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 18, 2004
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      Hi everyone,

      I've been watching the past few days with interest and thought I would speak
      up about the situation in Australia.

      I'm not sure what the case is in America, but the Australian Government is
      looking at ways to "reduce the liberal policy" associated with same-sex
      couples. They are trying to undo previously approved policy in an effort to
      restore "wholesome family values".

      I believe that instead of things getting better in the next 5 years they
      will actually get WORSE. Much worse, to the point, where I can honestly see
      rioting because the "moral right" opposes gay relationships.

      As I understand it Mr Bush is also determined to "restore moral values" in
      the US.

      How does this relate to churches? Well, I believe that the drivers behind
      these actions aren't the politicians, but they are actually the heads of
      significant churches and denominations. I continually pray that God will
      raise all the Gay Christians together to make a stand as one. My heritage
      is that I came from The Salvation Army, where I was outed during a morning
      service in prayer from the pulpit. The Salvation Army, is one of the
      significant opposers of gay relationships in Australia and the US.

      I also note that you're drawing parallels to the freeing of slaves in the US
      to the freeing of gay-Christians for inclusive worship. Black americans,
      and Africans are still "enslaved" by the colour of their skin. Irrespective
      of the government policy on equality, if you watch any of the "reality
      police" shows - you'll see that black americans are always assumed guilty
      till proven otherwise. Black americans are "assumed" to be more dangerous.
      So are they free? Perhaps in policy, but even now in 2004 there is still a
      cultural suspicion of dark skinned people. We have the same problems here
      with Australian Aboriginals. Our native people are always assumed to be
      "more troublesome" than their counterparts from other races.

      Inclusive Christianity still has a long way to go. While we might think
      that people "approve" of our sexual partnerships - it would be interesting
      to be a fly on the wall in the homes of people who "accept". Do they
      really? Or are they behind closed doors drawing all kinds of conclusions
      about our relationships.

      Here in Australia, we have the Uniting Church who have accepted gays in the
      clergy an congregations for the past 5 years. Even this denomination has
      problems at a national level fully accepting gays. Some individual churches
      are so fractured that they have split in half!

      There is much work to be done in this area. And I truly hope that groups
      like EC, this emailing list, and others who are continuing to fight on our
      behalf - will maintain their quest. They have my full support and
      encouragement in all that they do.

      Pete


      -----Original Message-----
      From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Thursday, 18 November 2004 10:23 PM
      To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: On disbanded groups



      Sorry if I gave the impression that I believed we had already
      arrived. I agree with you that we're certainly not there yet, but
      we're headed in that direction and thankfully are clearly light
      years from where we were. I've always seen a strong parallel
      between the changing mindset (both in and out of the church) on the
      attitude toward homosexuality and homosexual relationships and that
      of the civil rights movement. Not that they're exactly the same but
      there are parallels. For hundreds, if not thousands of years, light-
      skinned people were thought and believed to be superior to dark-
      skinned people. One was taught that falsehood in their homes, in
      their communities, in their schools and yes, even in their
      churches. Society was built around that myth, one was expected to
      perpetuate it and anyone who even thought of challenging the myth
      met with huge opposition, if not harm.

      After hundreds and/or thousands of years of this, attitudes did not
      change over night. It took a few generations from the 50s until
      relatively recently for attitudes to change and for education, truth
      and tolerance to prevail. Today, although there are turkeys who
      still believe and perpetuate the myth, it is no longer politically
      correct, acceptable or even legal to do so -- even in the southern
      part of the United States.

      I think we have a similar situation with the attitude toward
      homosexuality and homosexual relationships. Within the next 10
      years or so it will be considered nothing short of appalling to make
      a derogative statement about gay people or deny them basic rights.
      My church is not the first to get on the bandwagon and it surely
      will not be the last. There is not a mainline denomination in the
      nation that does not have this issue at the forefront of their
      issues list. I think the age of silence and invisibility is
      thankfully inexorably and undeniably passing away in our lifetime,
      before our very eyes.

      -Alex


      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "brownmuse" <brownmuse@y...>
      wrote:
      >
      > nyguy_1225 (Alex) wrote:
      >
      > In one sense, the ministry of EC will have achieved its greatest
      > success when it is no longer needed. Perhaps the reduction in
      local
      > groups is the real evidence that we're headed in the right
      > direction.
      > -----------------------
      >
      > The issue I see in the reduction of groups like EC, is that if one
      > would need to weed their way though a church to find such a group
      > would it not discourage them for fear of rebuke to even look?
      Alex,
      > your church is a beautiful exception. Simply amazing.
      > Unfortunately, in the southern part of the United States, I've not
      > found it to be that way.
      >
      > Jerry
      > mandrakes.blogspot.com







      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • stryped_tigger
      Jerry, I totally understand where you are coming from. Let s talk one on one sometime!:) Chris
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 18, 2004
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        Jerry,

        I totally understand where you are coming from.

        Let's talk one on one sometime!:)

        Chris
        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "brownmuse" <brownmuse@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > nyguy_1225 (Alex) wrote:
        >
        > In one sense, the ministry of EC will have achieved its greatest
        > success when it is no longer needed. Perhaps the reduction in local
        > groups is the real evidence that we're headed in the right
        > direction.
        > -----------------------
        >
        > The issue I see in the reduction of groups like EC, is that if one
        > would need to weed their way though a church to find such a group
        > would it not discourage them for fear of rebuke to even look? Alex,
        > your church is a beautiful exception. Simply amazing.
        > Unfortunately, in the southern part of the United States, I've not
        > found it to be that way.
        >
        > Jerry
        > mandrakes.blogspot.com
      • nyguy_1225
        I think if you step back a bit and look at the picture from a wider perspective you ll be amazed and get a much clearer perspective on just how far we ve come
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 19, 2004
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          I think if you step back a bit and look at the picture from a wider
          perspective you'll be amazed and get a much clearer perspective on
          just how far we've come on this issue in a relatively short time.

          Did you know that in the 1950s when the US State Department
          announced it had fired 91 homosexuals, the Republicans opened up on
          the issue? New York Governor Thomas E. Dewey, the G.O.P.
          presidential candidate in 1944 and 1948, accused the Truman
          administration of harboring "sex offenders." G.O.P. National
          Chairman Guy Gabrielson sent out a newsletter to 7,000 party workers
          cuing them in on the "homosexual angle." He explained that "sexual
          perverts" who were "perhaps as dangerous as the communists" had
          lodged themselves in the tissues of the bureaucracy. The senate
          caused the subject to be investigated by what came to be called "the
          pervert committee" which received a report asserting that the
          homosexual "tends to have a corrosive influence upon his fellow
          employees. These perverts will frequently attempt to entice normal
          individuals to engage in perverted practices. This is particularly
          true in the case of young and impressionable people who might come
          under the influence of a pervert ... One homosexual can pervert a
          government office."

          40 years ago advanced thinking took homosexuality to be a disease;
          gay people often thought so themselves and in the social annals of
          the period you can find affecting stories of gay people putting
          themselves through tormenting therapeutic procedures. Sometimes the
          court proscribed the treatment for them. Alan Turning, the English
          mathematician who broke Germany's "enigma" code during WWII and
          subsequently made major contributions to the development of
          computers, was arrested by the British police in 1952 for homosexual
          acts; after pleading guilty he was sentenced to hormone treatments
          which had no affect of his sexual preferences but did cause him to
          grow breasts and become impotent. Less than a year after his
          therapy was concluded the man committed suicide.

          About the same time Turing took his life, there was another similar
          suicide, but this one occurred in Washington. John Montgomery,
          manager of the Finnish Desk at the State Department, killed
          himself. In the city's subterranean gay world the word was passed
          that he had hung himself by jumping from the balcony of the
          Georgetown house he shared with another man. The story whispered
          was that Montgomery had been found dangling in the foyer at the end
          of a rope tied to one of the balcony's banister posts.

          Such incidents reinforced popular misunderstanding which found
          expression in Washington Confidential, published by Crown in 1951; a
          zippy piece of prose which instructed its readers in chapter 15,
          entitled "Garden of the Pansies," that "more than 90 twisted twerps
          in trousers had been swished out of the State Department ... there
          are at least 6,000 homosexuals on the government payroll, most of
          them known, and these comprise only a fraction of the total of their
          kind in the city."

          "Aware of the seriousness of the problem, the State Department has a
          highly hush-hush "homosexual bureau" manned by trained investigators
          and former counterespionage agents, whose duties are to ferret out
          pansies in Foggy Bottom. With more than 6,000 fairies in government
          offices, you may be concerned about the security of the country.
          Fairies are no more disloyal than the normal. But homosexuals are
          vulnerable; they can be blackmailed or influenced by sex more deeply
          than conventional citizens; they are far more intense about their
          love-life."

          It was opinions like this which account for the Washington police
          averaging more than 1,000 arrests a year of men accused of
          homosexual acts during the 1950s. 1,000s more were forced out of
          federal jobs in both the civilian and military service, and unknown
          members were refused employment for the same reason. To make sure
          the U.S. had a heterosexual government, "The FBI sought out friendly
          vice quads officers who supplied arrest records on moral charges,
          regardless of whether convictions had ensued," writes social
          historian John D'Emelio. "Regional FBI offices gathered data on gay
          bars, compiled lists of other places frequented by homosexuals, and
          clipped press articles that provided information about the gay
          world. Friendships with a known homosexual or lesbian subjected
          anyone to an investigation. The list of atrocities goes on and on.

          Things had not changed much by the 1960s either. In October of
          1964, when President Lyndon Johnson was in the middle of his
          presidential campaign, his closest aide, Chief of Staff Walter
          Jenkins, was caught by the police in a YMCA basement in the bathroom
          with another man. He was booked on disorderly conduct, summarily
          dismissed, left Washington and was never heard from again.

          The point, my dear brother, is that change takes time, as do all
          good things. God had to teach us about people of color (which did
          not happen overnight, it took decades). God also had to teach us
          about women (which did not happen overnight, it took decades). And
          now God is teaching us about gay people. And you'll have to be a
          bit patient if this too takes time. Stand back and look at the
          picture from a wider perspective. Look at how far we've come in a
          relatively short time. It's a very far cry (light years as a matter
          of fact!) from a time where we arrested 1,000s of people a year
          simply because they were involved in "homosexual activity" to a
          point where considering the prospect of legally recognizing their
          loving unions is at the top of the discussion chain in the media,
          the military, corporations, schools, the government and even our
          churches. Of course this is going to freak some people out. The
          fact that this matter has become so explosive stands as the best
          testimony that we're heading in the right direction. Take heart.

          -Alex


          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Pete Zayonce" <pete@g...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi everyone,
          >
          > I've been watching the past few days with interest and thought I
          would speak
          > up about the situation in Australia.
          >
          > I'm not sure what the case is in America, but the Australian
          Government is
          > looking at ways to "reduce the liberal policy" associated with
          same-sex
          > couples. They are trying to undo previously approved policy in an
          effort to
          > restore "wholesome family values".
          >
          > I believe that instead of things getting better in the next 5
          years they
          > will actually get WORSE. Much worse, to the point, where I can
          honestly see
          > rioting because the "moral right" opposes gay relationships.
          >
          > As I understand it Mr Bush is also determined to "restore moral
          values" in
          > the US.
          >
          > How does this relate to churches? Well, I believe that the
          drivers behind
          > these actions aren't the politicians, but they are actually the
          heads of
          > significant churches and denominations. I continually pray that
          God will
          > raise all the Gay Christians together to make a stand as one. My
          heritage
          > is that I came from The Salvation Army, where I was outed during a
          morning
          > service in prayer from the pulpit. The Salvation Army, is one of
          the
          > significant opposers of gay relationships in Australia and the US.
          >
          > I also note that you're drawing parallels to the freeing of slaves
          in the US
          > to the freeing of gay-Christians for inclusive worship. Black
          americans,
          > and Africans are still "enslaved" by the colour of their skin.
          Irrespective
          > of the government policy on equality, if you watch any of
          the "reality
          > police" shows - you'll see that black americans are always assumed
          guilty
          > till proven otherwise. Black americans are "assumed" to be more
          dangerous.
          > So are they free? Perhaps in policy, but even now in 2004 there
          is still a
          > cultural suspicion of dark skinned people. We have the same
          problems here
          > with Australian Aboriginals. Our native people are always assumed
          to be
          > "more troublesome" than their counterparts from other races.
          >
          > Inclusive Christianity still has a long way to go. While we might
          think
          > that people "approve" of our sexual partnerships - it would be
          interesting
          > to be a fly on the wall in the homes of people who "accept". Do
          they
          > really? Or are they behind closed doors drawing all kinds of
          conclusions
          > about our relationships.
          >
          > Here in Australia, we have the Uniting Church who have accepted
          gays in the
          > clergy an congregations for the past 5 years. Even this
          denomination has
          > problems at a national level fully accepting gays. Some
          individual churches
          > are so fractured that they have split in half!
          >
          > There is much work to be done in this area. And I truly hope that
          groups
          > like EC, this emailing list, and others who are continuing to
          fight on our
          > behalf - will maintain their quest. They have my full support and
          > encouragement in all that they do.
          >
          > Pete
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
          > Sent: Thursday, 18 November 2004 10:23 PM
          > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: On disbanded groups
          >
          >
          >
          > Sorry if I gave the impression that I believed we had already
          > arrived. I agree with you that we're certainly not there yet, but
          > we're headed in that direction and thankfully are clearly light
          > years from where we were. I've always seen a strong parallel
          > between the changing mindset (both in and out of the church) on
          the
          > attitude toward homosexuality and homosexual relationships and
          that
          > of the civil rights movement. Not that they're exactly the same
          but
          > there are parallels. For hundreds, if not thousands of years,
          light-
          > skinned people were thought and believed to be superior to dark-
          > skinned people. One was taught that falsehood in their homes, in
          > their communities, in their schools and yes, even in their
          > churches. Society was built around that myth, one was expected to
          > perpetuate it and anyone who even thought of challenging the myth
          > met with huge opposition, if not harm.
          >
          > After hundreds and/or thousands of years of this, attitudes did
          not
          > change over night. It took a few generations from the 50s until
          > relatively recently for attitudes to change and for education,
          truth
          > and tolerance to prevail. Today, although there are turkeys who
          > still believe and perpetuate the myth, it is no longer politically
          > correct, acceptable or even legal to do so -- even in the southern
          > part of the United States.
          >
          > I think we have a similar situation with the attitude toward
          > homosexuality and homosexual relationships. Within the next 10
          > years or so it will be considered nothing short of appalling to
          make
          > a derogative statement about gay people or deny them basic
          rights.
          > My church is not the first to get on the bandwagon and it surely
          > will not be the last. There is not a mainline denomination in the
          > nation that does not have this issue at the forefront of their
          > issues list. I think the age of silence and invisibility is
          > thankfully inexorably and undeniably passing away in our lifetime,
          > before our very eyes.
          >
          > -Alex
          >
          >
          > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "brownmuse"
          <brownmuse@y...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > nyguy_1225 (Alex) wrote:
          > >
          > > In one sense, the ministry of EC will have achieved its greatest
          > > success when it is no longer needed. Perhaps the reduction in
          > local
          > > groups is the real evidence that we're headed in the right
          > > direction.
          > > -----------------------
          > >
          > > The issue I see in the reduction of groups like EC, is that if
          one
          > > would need to weed their way though a church to find such a
          group
          > > would it not discourage them for fear of rebuke to even look?
          > Alex,
          > > your church is a beautiful exception. Simply amazing.
          > > Unfortunately, in the southern part of the United States, I've
          not
          > > found it to be that way.
          > >
          > > Jerry
          > > mandrakes.blogspot.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Ex-Gay Watch
          ...
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 19, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            >From Ex-Gay Watch:

            << Exgay activist Stephen Bennett will debate the topic "Gay and Christian"
            on PAX-TV's Faith Under Fire on Saturday, Dec. 4. Other debate participants:
            Ron Poindexter, who says God didn't expect him to give up his sexuality, and
            Duke Holtz, who is gay and celibate. >>

            Ron Poindexter is ex-exgay and affiliated with ECWR, but I don't know much
            about him -- how well-prepared he might be to face off against Bennett.

            I've been collecting info about Bennett here:
            http://www.exgaywatch.com/xgw/stephen_bennett/index.html

            If anyone knows of other resources about Bennett, please share. :)

            And if anyone knows how to reach Ron, please feel free to pass this info
            along to him.

            Thanks.
            ==
            Mike Airhart
            Ex-Gay Watch
          • Bill Prickett
            I ve known Ron for years through my work with EC and he s very articulate and capable. Thanks for letting us know about this. Bill Prickett
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 19, 2004
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              I've known Ron for years through my work with EC and he's very
              articulate and capable. Thanks for letting us know about this.

              Bill Prickett
              www.BillPrickett.com
            • Bill Prickett
              Yes, I think the next 4 - 5 years hold some major changes for ALL civil liberties. This administration has an agenda, based on a strong idea of what is right
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 19, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes, I think the next 4 - 5 years hold some major changes for ALL
                civil liberties. This administration has an agenda, based on a strong
                idea of what is right and wrong, moral and immoral, righteous and
                sinful. Unfortunately, homosexuality falls in the latter category. I
                think we will begin to see some organized opposition and oppression
                of homosexuals. It is a reactionary swing, and I think it will
                eventually balance out (history proves that to be the usual process),
                but it will get worse before it gets better. Silence (as in the early
                days of AIDS) will be deadly...but visibility and vocality (is that a
                word) will also be dangerous.

                Do I sound like a prophet of doom? Hope not!

                Bill Prickett
                www.BillPrickett.com
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