Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: i do exist

Expand Messages
  • nyguy_1225
    Thanks, Jackie. ... water ... alcoholism ... an ... Ask ... Was he ... say, I ... feelings ... a ... work ... into it ... People ... they ... fails ... to ...
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 30, 2004
      Thanks, Jackie.

      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, moi <lyricaloasis@g...>
      wrote:
      > If I might add my two cents Alex.
      >
      > When alcoholism/addiction is mentioned the argument doesn't hold
      water
      > concerning homosexuality when used as a correlation. When
      alcoholism
      > is compared with being promiscuous, whether gay or straight, then
      > there is a common ground for argument. It's good that Dale is not
      > always looking for men now, that would be good for anyone, if it's
      an
      > obsession. Just a brief thought that I had.
      >
      > Jackie
      >
      >
      >
      > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:29:36 -0000, nyguy_1225
      <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      > > <<I can live with the idea that I am just changing my behavior. I
      > > had to change it from drinking alcohol to not drinking it ever
      > > again.>>
      > >
      > > So you are comparing your sexuality with a chemical addiction?
      Ask
      > > an alcoholic how natural it was to drink in the first place.
      Was he
      > > an alcoholic before he took a drink? Did he sit around and
      say, "I
      > > knew I was different. When I was 8-years old, I would have
      feelings
      > > of affection for that vodka bottle!" Sexuality and a chemical
      > > addiction/allergy are not related in any way.
      > >
      > > Alcoholism is a psychological addiction. It's impossible to have
      a
      > > fulfilling relationship with a bottle of whiskey. If gay
      > > relationships were like that, none would work. In fact, they
      work
      > > just as often as heterosexual relationships do (with the divorce
      > > rate at 50%, both in and outside of the Church). So, either
      > > heterosexuality is like alcoholism too, or the analogy is false.
      > >
      > > Moreover, alcoholism has a pathology and prognoses. Homosexuality
      > > has none. Alcoholism is an acquired behavior. People enter
      into it
      > > to escape something unbearable, and then it becomes habitual.
      People
      > > don't enter into homosexual emotions. They either have them or
      they
      > > don't.
      > >
      > > Comparing homosexuality to an addiction is the central medical
      > > argument used by "ex-gay" ministries. But as you can see, it
      fails
      > > completely.
      > >
      > > -Alex
      > >
      > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, DALE MALHENZIE
      > > <ssgdalbz@y...> wrote:
      > > > I can live with the idea that I am just changing my behavior. I
      > >
      > >
      > > had to change it from drinking alcohol to not drinking it ever
      > > again. The desire was too great. Whether there is a family
      > > propensity to alcohol or not I dont know but I had an uncle who
      > > would get drunk and beat each wife he had until they finally
      > > divorced him. If I was to touch the sauce again I might not want
      to
      > > stop. I also have to guard myself against taking things that dont
      > > belong to me. I dont know why. I have to say to myself that
      would be
      > > stealing dont touch.
      > > > Anyways whether it be the orientation or the behavior I am
      > > changing I am not happy with it. I know there may be people
      saying
      > > that you can become heterosexual. That's not what I have
      encountered
      > > with the online course I have been taking.Its not even my goal. I
      > > just want to stop the madness of not being able to concentrate
      on my
      > > job. I was on porn sites at work. Its a wonder I didn't get
      caught
      > > and fired. I wasn't reading God's word. At least now I think
      about
      > > something besides naked men. Gotta run. dale
      > > >
      > > > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      > > > The point is that people do not change their ORIENTATION, they
      > > > change their BEHAVIOR. And there is a world of difference
      between
      > > > the two. If some gay men would like to change their behavior
      and
      > > > marry straight woman -- that's perfectly fine with me. We
      live in
      > > > America where such wonderful freedoms are accorded to everyone.
      > > But
      > > > let's be clear and call it what it is. Let's have the "ex-
      gay"
      > > > ministries be clear about what they do and do not offer. Let's
      > > stop
      > > > misleading innocent and tender Christian people who are led to
      > > > believe that they can become heterosexual, only to find out
      after
      > > > they've read the fine print that this is not what is being
      > > promised
      > > > or offered by the "ex-gay" ministries at all.
      > > >
      > > > And let's stop telling gay people they are an abomination to
      God,
      > > or
      > > > that they're reprobate hell-bound sinners because they are not
      > > > heterosexual, etc. Many have had this drummed into their heads
      > > and
      > > > hearts for years. It's this nonsense that causes them to
      seek "ex-
      > > > gay" therapy to begin with.
      > > >
      > > > There is still far too much pressure for gay people to "be
      healed"
      > > > or to "be delivered" from their homosexuality with all that it
      > > > implies. I have dealt with the "failures" who were
      > > > never "delivered." I have known scores of gay people who came
      > > from
      > > > solid, conservative Christian backgrounds. After years of
      > > > spiritual, emotional and personal conflict, far too many
      finally
      > > > threw out the baby with the bath water and said goodbye to
      God, to
      > > > the Church, and even to their non-accepting families. The
      stories
      > > > are heart-wrenchingly sad.
      > > >
      > > > Notice that the "ex-gay" ministries only publicize
      the "handful of
      > > > (pseudo) success stories." They NEVER discuss the devastating
      > > > effects of their programs on the majority of their would-be and
      > > > former followers. History and experience reveal that most
      people
      > > > who seek "ex-gay" therapy do so because of social bias and
      > > > internalized homophobia. The American Psychological
      Association
      > > has
      > > > published report after report indicating that gay men and women
      > > who
      > > > have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better
      > > > adjusted than those who have not done so."
      > > >
      > > > So if some gay men want to change their behavior and marry
      women,
      > > I
      > > > say fine. But let's be upfront with the facts, and stop the
      > > > deceitful, manipulative and destructive charades.
      > > >
      > > > -Alex
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, DALE MALHENZIE
      > > > <ssgdalbz@y...> wrote:
      > > > > This make me think about the number of people who come to
      Christ
      > > > for salvation. Out of the whole number of people born what
      percent
      > > > are born again. But Christ would have died for just one person
      to
      > > > repent. Missionaries go to a foreign land and may see one or
      two
      > > > converts in their life time. Does that mean that they should
      give
      > > > up. Maybe only a few men change their orientation. Does than
      mean
      > > > that we should discourage anyone else from trying. I believe
      that
      > > I
      > > > am happier now than when I was trying to find men. I was
      happier
      > > > before I thought of finding one. I didn't get married to try to
      > > > change my orientation. That doesn't sound like the right
      reason to
      > > > get married But lots of people get married for the wrong
      reasons.
      > > > > So now we have guys marrying guys and women marrying
      women.
      > > > so that means we can divorce them right? where does this lead?
      > > Dale
      > > > >
      > > > > Anthony Venn-Brown - Personal Coach <avb@m...> wrote:
      > > > > Alex…..you wonderful man…….master of research and
      understanding.
      > > > >
      > > > > Statistics reveal that up to two million gay men and women in
      > > the
      > > > United
      > > > > States [mostly Christian] have married persons of the
      opposite
      > > > gender in the
      > > > > belief that the only way to achieve a loving committed
      > > > relationship and a
      > > > > family is to enter the traditional form of marriage espoused
      by
      > > > their
      > > > > family, community, and faith-based congregation.
      > > > >
      > > > > Can you tell me where I can find the source of this. It
      would be
      > > > valuable to
      > > > > me when I get opportunities to speak to the media about
      sexual
      > > > orientation
      > > > > and especially the futile attempts people have made to
      change.
      > > > >
      > > > > Jayson……it's the same here in Australia. The exgay
      ministries
      > > have
      > > > a dismal
      > > > > track record of failure……but still insist people can
      change. I
      > > was
      > > > recently
      > > > > on a tow hour video with one of the leaders here……Ron
      Brookman
      > > > > http://www.livingwaters.org.au
      > > <http://www.livingwaters.org.au/>
      > > > who
      > > > > incriminated himself several times during the interview and
      > > > acknowledged
      > > > > that he was sexually aroused just reading my book. That isn't
      > > > freedom. These
      > > > > ministries don't give people hope. They give them false hope
      or
      > > > one could be
      > > > > blunter and say a lie……that leads them into years of
      pain,
      > > > struggle and
      > > > > heartache.
      > > > >
      > > > > Anthony Venn-Brown
      > > > > Accredited Life & Business Coach (ACC ICF)
      > > > > Author of 'A Life of Unlearning - Coming Out to the Church,
      One
      > > > Man's
      > > > > Struggle' Foreword by Hon. Michael Kirby.
      > > > > Download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE on the book page of
      > > > > anthonyvennbrown.com
      <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html>
      > > > > Doing all I can to inform, inspire and dispel the myths.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
      > > > > Sent: Sunday, 26 September 2004 14:48
      > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Subject: Spam Message:[ExExGayMinistry] Re: i do exist
      > > > >
      > > > > Although I fully respect your opinion and right to feel this
      way,
      > > > > I'm not sure I would agree. While it is certainly everyone's
      > > free
      > > > > choice and right to believe whatever one wishes, sometimes
      it's
      > > far
      > > > > more loving to offer those we care about more realistic and
      > > honest
      > > > > alternatives.
      > > > >
      > > > > With more than 25 years of history now behind us we can say
      with
      > > > > much greater confidence that efforts to change one's sexual
      > > > > orientation through whatever means fail. People who have
      > > > > experimented with homosexual behavior (as many heterosexual
      > > people
      > > > > do) can turn away from it. And homosexuals, like
      heterosexuals
      > > can
      > > > > become celibate. But review after review of the research on
      > > > efforts
      > > > > to help people change their sexual orientation concludes
      > > > that "there
      > > > > is no evidence indicating that such treatments are
      effective," as
      > > > > D.C. Haldeman stated in the "The Practice and Ethics of
      Sexual
      > > > > Conversion Therapy" published in the Journal of Counseling
      and
      > > > > Clinical Psychology.
      > > > >
      > > > > Christian ex-gay ministries have also had a go at this. But
      most
      > > > > are now either defunct, abandoned by their ex-ex-gay
      founders, or
      > > > > increasingly emphasize celibacy (i.e. a cessation of
      homosexual
      > > > > activity) rather than heterosexuality as the goal. Reading
      their
      > > > > literature, one is struck by the admitted homosexual
      > > > temptations "ex-
      > > > > gays" still struggle with, and their fine print almost
      > > universally
      > > > > acknowledges that it's "a lifelong struggle." The bottom
      line:
      > > The
      > > > > changes we've witnessed in "ex-gay" ministries" over the
      past 25
      > > > > years have been in claims and in personnel, not in sexual
      > > > > orientation.
      > > > >
      > > > > I've personally known many of those who opted for that route.
      > > And
      > > > > as far as marriage is concerned: Statistics reveal that up
      to two
      > > > > million gay men and women in the United States [mostly
      Christian]
      > > > > have married persons of the opposite gender in the belief
      that
      > > the
      > > > > only way to achieve a loving committed relationship and a
      family
      > > is
      > > > > to enter the traditional form of marriage espoused by their
      > > family,
      > > > > community, and faith-based congregation. In so doing, most
      deny,
      > > > > ignore, or leave unquestioned their same-gender attractions.
      > > They
      > > > > pray and trust that God will help them change. Eventually,
      those
      > > > > feelings can no longer be suppressed. After a painful
      struggle
      > > > > between fidelity and truth, love and deception, many come
      out to
      > > > > their heterosexual wives and husbands. In the majority of
      cases,
      > > > > the couples divorce, leaving broken families and single
      parents
      > > > > across the country. Thus, the gay spouses' attempt to commit
      to a
      > > > > heterosexual marriage endorsed by society or the Church ends
      up
      > > > > hurting not only themselves, but also their wives or husbands
      > > and,
      > > > > most importantly, their children.
      > > > >
      > > > > Most importantly, it needs to be noted that all of these
      people
      > > > were
      > > > > at one time part of the "I do exist" crowd. And where are
      they
      > > > > now? Few still proclaim that they are not gay. And
      increasingly
      > > > > there are more and more testimonies from those who
      did "exist,"
      > > > i.e.
      > > > > had been involved with these ministries, and are now coming
      out
      > > on
      > > > > the other side to say they're not effective.
      > > > >
      > > > > Why can we not accept our own and others sexual orientation
      > > without
      > > > > excusing promiscuity, exploitation or self-destructive
      behavior?
      > > > > Straight or gay, we all face moral choices over options that
      > > > include
      > > > > abstinence and long-term commitment. I think that's the far
      > > > > healthier and more honest route for all in the long run.
      > > > >
      > > > > -Alex
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, J <Jayson2377@y...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > > > i did get a chance to see the throckmorton video "i do
      > > > > > exist"... i was happy to see a video of its kind
      > > > > > finally come into fruition.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > while i do identify as gay, many of my friends are on
      > > > > > the journey of leaving homosexuality. further, many
      > > > > > of my friends who are gay have married and fathered.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ive come to the understanding that ppl will do what
      > > > > > they feel is right for them and its not up to me to
      > > > > > judge someone who believes they can change. i have
      > > > > > supported (and continued to do so) a handful of
      > > > > > friends who have/want to change.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > ive realised that no matter how accepting our society,
      > > > > > culture, churches or synogogues get, there will still
      > > > > > be thousands of men who believe they are gay that will
      > > > > > get married or never come out. that is THEIR choice.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > a documentary like 'i do exist' is needed for them, to
      > > > > > give them hope.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > regards,
      > > > > > Jayson
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > __________________________________
      > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > > > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
      > > > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
      > > > > click here
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1298cnqf4/M=295196.4901138.6071305.30011
      > > > 76/D=gr
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      oups/S=1705074683:HM/EXP=1096260512/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http
      > > > ://comp
      > > > > anion.yahoo.com>
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > _____
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/
      > > > >
      > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > <mailto:exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
      > > > subject=Unsubscribe>
      > > > >
      > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      > > Terms
      > > > of
      > > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
      > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/
      > > > >
      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
      of
      > > > Service.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > __________________________________________________
      > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
      > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection
      around
      > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exexgayministry/
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > > Service.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > Do you Yahoo!?
      > > > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
    • Matthew Gardiner
      ... salvation. ... But Christ ... foreign land ... that they ... Nor should they, but they should also realise that they too are human and are subject to
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 6, 2004
        > This make me think about the number of people who come to Christ for
        salvation.
        > Out of the whole number of people born what percent are born again.
        But Christ
        > would have died for just one person to repent. Missionaries go to a
        foreign land
        > and may see one or two converts in their life time. Does that mean
        that they
        > should give up.

        Nor should they, but they should also realise that they too are human
        and are subject to making errors. To simply set up camp around the
        world, declare everyone elses belief systems invalid, then demand
        conversion on mass is at the least arrogance and in the worst, bigotry
        of the highest order.

        > Maybe only a few men change their orientation. Does than mean that we
        should
        > discourage anyone else from trying. I believe that I am happier now
        than when
        > I was trying to find men. I was happier before I thought of finding
        one. I
        > didn't get married to try to change my orientation. That doesn't
        sound like
        > the right reason to get married But lots of people get married for
        the wrong
        > reasons.

        Before you go further, why did you need to find men? why was there this
        driving idea of *having* to have a man? for me, and I'm sure most people
        here, most people don't get hung up if they're single, if Mr Right pops
        up, sure, no problems, bt I am sure none of the guys or girls here are
        losing sleep not having a partner; what you should have been question is
        not your homosexuality by why you have this overwhelming desire of
        feeling like you have to have a companion; are you trying to escape from
        something? using religion and relationships to hide from the real problem.

        > So now we have guys marrying guys and women marrying women. so that means
        > we can divorce them right? where does this lead? Dale

        And why would that be an issue? we've seen the religious right running
        hand in hand with Fox screaming the virtues of marriage, but of course,
        according to their double standard, there is nothing wrong with 4 dozen
        screaming lasses competing for a bachelor, or the "on the show
        marriages" we seeing being broadcasted like some sort of game show.

        Maybe if these churches who rally against homosexuality and same sex
        unions want to get some legitimacy, they first should get their house in
        order before dictating to all and sundry about what people can and can't
        do in the privacy of their own home with a partner of conscenting age.

        Just look at the train wreck, Terry Randall, after married to his loyal
        wife for over a decade, he trades her in for a younger model; Rupert
        Murdoch, wife loyal to him for 34 years, knew him when he was nothing
        but an manager of a two bit newspaper in Victoria, what did he do? he
        divorced and traded his loyal wife of 34 years in for a younger model.
        Need I go on? how about Nwet Gingrich who was doing a bit of slap and
        tickle behind his wifes back, the wife who was lying in hospital
        fighting for her life with cancer.

        The train wreck of marriage in the conservative Christian following is
        nothing to be proud about and should be addressed before these people
        start throwing stones at perceived evils they claim they see, according
        to their lack of insight about the bible and intepreting it.

        Matty
      • dixibehr@aol.com
        ... And don t forget, Randall Terry, the outspoken opponent of homosexuality and abortion has an openly gay son and he ran off his own teenaged daughter when
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 6, 2004
          In a message dated 10/6/04 8:31:50 AM, kaiwai@... writes:


          > Just look at the train wreck, Terry Randall, after married to his loyal
          > wife for over a decade, he trades her in for a younger model;
          >

          And don't forget, Randall Terry, the outspoken opponent of homosexuality and
          abortion has an openly gay son and he ran off his own teenaged daughter when
          she got pregnant in high school.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Matthew Gardiner
          ... Yeap, I remember that. A son who is gay, a daughter who got pregnant and school, and IIRC, the third daughter converted to Islam. So not only a train
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 6, 2004
            Dixibehr@... wrote:

            >
            > In a message dated 10/6/04 8:31:50 AM, kaiwai@... writes:
            >
            >
            >> Just look at the train wreck, Terry Randall, after married to his loyal
            >> wife for over a decade, he trades her in for a younger model;
            >
            >
            >
            > And don't forget, Randall Terry, the outspoken opponent of
            > homosexuality and abortion has an openly gay son and he ran off his
            > own teenaged daughter when she got pregnant in high school.

            Yeap, I remember that. A son who is gay, a daughter who got pregnant
            and school, and IIRC, the third daughter converted to Islam.

            So not only a train wreck marriage but a train wreck family life; but
            then again, its typical of these people, they would give advice to
            everyone else rather than them getting their house in order.

            Can you blame people who have anti-Christian feelings? especially when
            you see the hypocracy that is spread by Christians. The double standards
            of "do what I say, not as I do". Churches who decry homosexuality, and
            yet, say nothing on issues such as child abuse, divorce, domestic
            violence etc. etc.

            What the hypocracy has done is pushed my family away from Christianity;
            my father no longer wants any association with the Catholic Church after
            the hypocratic and homophobic Bishop Pell was promoted to Cardinal, as
            for my sister, brother and I, we no longer want a religion that dictates
            to us.

            For my sister and I, we converted to Buddhism over 10 years ago and
            haven't looked back; we're no longer dictated to by priests and self
            appointed gurus. My "lifestyle choice" as Christians like to call it is
            never questioned as the more important things such as respecting others
            take a higher presidence over what people do behind closed doors. My
            brother and mother are agnostic; they would rather believe in a God
            without all the baggage associated with his fan club on earth.

            Matty
          • nyguy_1225
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 7, 2004
              <<What the hypocracy has done is pushed my family away from
              Christianity; my father no longer wants any association with the
              Catholic Church after the hypocratic and homophobic Bishop Pell was
              promoted to Cardinal, as for my sister, brother and I, we no longer
              want a religion that dictates to us.>>

              I can well understand how hypocrisy can turn people off to God and
              religion. I see it all the time and have had to personally grapple
              with it myself. But for those who end up throwing out the baby with
              the bath water, so to speak, isn't that somewhat akin to refusing to
              eat again just because mom burned the brownies? I guess the
              question that comes to my mind is: if you, your sister and your
              brother no longer want a religion (or a God) that dictates to you,
              then what kind of religion and God do you want? The kind where you
              dictate to him? Surely there must be healthier balance we can
              achieve.

              -Alex


              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Gardiner
              <kaiwai@v...> wrote:
              >
              > Dixibehr@a... wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > In a message dated 10/6/04 8:31:50 AM, kaiwai@v... writes:
              > >
              > >
              > >> Just look at the train wreck, Terry Randall, after married to
              his loyal
              > >> wife for over a decade, he trades her in for a younger model;
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > And don't forget, Randall Terry, the outspoken opponent of
              > > homosexuality and abortion has an openly gay son and he ran off
              his
              > > own teenaged daughter when she got pregnant in high school.
              >
              > Yeap, I remember that. A son who is gay, a daughter who got
              pregnant
              > and school, and IIRC, the third daughter converted to Islam.
              >
              > So not only a train wreck marriage but a train wreck family life;
              but
              > then again, its typical of these people, they would give advice to
              > everyone else rather than them getting their house in order.
              >
              > Can you blame people who have anti-Christian feelings? especially
              when
              > you see the hypocracy that is spread by Christians. The double
              standards
              > of "do what I say, not as I do". Churches who decry homosexuality,
              and
              > yet, say nothing on issues such as child abuse, divorce, domestic
              > violence etc. etc.
              >
              > What the hypocracy has done is pushed my family away from
              Christianity;
              > my father no longer wants any association with the Catholic Church
              after
              > the hypocratic and homophobic Bishop Pell was promoted to
              Cardinal, as
              > for my sister, brother and I, we no longer want a religion that
              dictates
              > to us.
              >
              > For my sister and I, we converted to Buddhism over 10 years ago
              and
              > haven't looked back; we're no longer dictated to by priests and
              self
              > appointed gurus. My "lifestyle choice" as Christians like to call
              it is
              > never questioned as the more important things such as respecting
              others
              > take a higher presidence over what people do behind closed doors.
              My
              > brother and mother are agnostic; they would rather believe in a
              God
              > without all the baggage associated with his fan club on earth.
              >
              > Matty
            • Matthew Gardiner
              ... Agreed, but the thing is my family haven t turn off religion, we ve turned off from the organised religion, the religion that demands alligence to the
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 7, 2004
                nyguy_1225 wrote:

                ><<What the hypocracy has done is pushed my family away from
                >Christianity; my father no longer wants any association with the
                >Catholic Church after the hypocratic and homophobic Bishop Pell was
                >promoted to Cardinal, as for my sister, brother and I, we no longer
                >want a religion that dictates to us.>>
                >
                >I can well understand how hypocrisy can turn people off to God and
                >religion. I see it all the time and have had to personally grapple
                >with it myself. But for those who end up throwing out the baby with
                >the bath water, so to speak, isn't that somewhat akin to refusing to
                >eat again just because mom burned the brownies? I guess the
                >question that comes to my mind is: if you, your sister and your
                >brother no longer want a religion (or a God) that dictates to you,
                >then what kind of religion and God do you want? The kind where you
                >dictate to him? Surely there must be healthier balance we can
                >achieve.
                >
                >-Alex
                >
                >

                Agreed, but the thing is my family haven't turn off religion, we've
                turned off from the organised religion, the religion that demands
                alligence to the organisation rather than getting the followers to think
                for themselves. Sure, my family believe in God, Jesus and the good works
                of them, but they no longer associate themselves with a particular
                denomination. So you could still say they're "Christian" but not part of
                the established fan clubs.

                Matty
                --

                "If a nation could not prosper without the enjoyment of
                perfect liberty and perfect justice, there is not in
                the world a nation which could ever have prospered." -
                The Wealth of Nations, Book IV, Chapter IX
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.