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Re: New group name?: ex-ex-"selfish-hedonists"

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  • nyguy_1225
    Keyes said: The essence of ... family life remains procreation. If we embrace homosexuality as a proper basis for marriage, we are saying that it s possible
    Message 1 of 31 , Sep 1, 2004
      Keyes said: "The essence of ... family life remains procreation. If
      we embrace homosexuality as a proper basis for marriage, we are
      saying that it's possible to have a marriage state that in principal
      excludes procreation and is based simply on the premise of selfish

      If Keyes is correct that any marriage excluding the possibility of
      procreation is based on selfish hedonism, then it would follow that
      all heterosexual couples in which one or both partners are infertile
      should also be prohibited from marrying. For they, like Mary
      Cheney, would simply be selfish hedonists.

      I dare say Keyes' sentiment appears to be in direct opposition to
      God's. Undoubtedly the male and female sex organs are designed to
      complement one another and are necessary to produce babies. But
      sexuality means much more than reproduction. This insight seems to
      be confirmed by the complementary account of creation provided in
      Genesis. For God, we are told, was strangely sympathetic to the
      loneliness of Adam, observing that within the universe he had so
      conspicuously pronounced "good" there was, nevertheless, a
      significant omission. "It was not good for the man to be alone"
      (Genesis 2:18). In other words, a primary creation purpose of sex
      is inter-personal intimacy, not just procreation. Sex as a profound
      expression of love and mutuality is something most of us accept
      gratefully as a good part of God's good world; it is a marvel and a
      mystery and a grace that babies can come from ecstasy, but the
      ecstasy does not require babies to justify it.


      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
      > You're right, Alex, gay politics is at the forefront of American
      > politics.
      > According to the Chicago Tribune, on Monday night the Illinois
      > Republican candidate for the US Senate, Alan "controversial"
      > declared homosexuality to be "selfish hedonism". The Sirius OutQ
      > radio host then asked if Vice President Cheney's daughter, Mary
      > Cheney, is a "selfish hedonist". He replied, "Of course she is.
      > That goes by definition. Of course she is."
      > [I'm speechless]
      > So, one would think that a candidate's negative characterization
      > an entire class of people would prompt a loud rebuke from his
      > "It was inappropriate" -- Steve Schmidt, Bush/Cheney campaign
      > spokesman
      > "I don't think that's appropriate, but it's not the first
      > inappropriate remark Mr. Keyes has made. He made a remark the
      > day that people who perform abortions are the same as terrorists.
      > That's a very unique take on that issue and one that's very seldom
      > espoused." -- Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.)
      > "The ticket is Republican. I am the Republican chairman. He is on
      > the ticket. We will support the ticket." -- Judy Baar Topinka
      > Illinois Republican Party Chairwoman
      > [I'm even more speechless]
      > So, Mr. Schmidt, Ms. Topinka, and Sen. McCain don't necessarily
      > disagree with Keyes. They just find his comments to be
      > inappropriate (i.e. improper, unsuitable). I understand that
      > Topinka is in a tough position in that she is
      practically 'married'
      > to Keyes, but, according to the article, McCain already denounced
      > Keyes' candidacy as a lost cause. And yet, the never soft-spoken
      > McCain can only bring himself to describe Keyes' views as unique.
      > It would seem that Republicans see no problem in attacking gays as
      > part of their campaign strategy -- let alone upset the Religious
      > Right.
      > I find this very disturbing. Well, I would find it very
      > disturbing. Fortunately, I'm too self-centered and find it too
      > unpleasant to ponder.
      > Norm!
      > [See: "Keyes defends comments about Cheney's gay daughter", by
      > Jennifer Skalka and Ofelia Casillas, 08/31/04, Chicago Tribune,
      > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-
      > 040831illinois,1,6577738.story?coll=chi-news-hed]
    • Bob Griffith
      Anthony - I do understand. Dale said that divorce is not an option he desires. If he chooses to stay married, then from a Christian viewpoint being faithful
      Message 31 of 31 , Sep 11, 2004
        Anthony -

        I do understand. Dale said that divorce is not an option he desires. If
        he chooses to stay married, then from a Christian viewpoint being faithful
        to the marriage vows is very important.


        --- Anthony Venn-Brown - Personal Coach <avb@...> wrote:

        > HI Bob
        > In talking about marriage vows before God and being gay and staying with
        > your wife....I'm not sure you completely understand the situation.
        > The vows I made to my wife were based totally on a false premise..that I
        > was
        > heterosexual. How could I ever love a woman like she needs to be loved.
        > My
        > ex wife deserves the best..that is a man who loves a women and will be
        > devoted to her and satisfy her sexually.
        > Once again..I say that it is totally the individuals decision..but I
        > find
        > that some men who stay with their wives are being second rate
        > husbands...and
        > there are many subconscious things have kept them from making the
        > decision
        > to end a marriage that is a farce. One of those is fear ..fear of what
        > it
        > would mean living as a gay man with integrity....another is the loss of
        > security of what they have known...many others though...I know..I had to
        > face all those fears. For me to stay would have been a selfish act...and
        > a
        > lie.
        > But when it came down to it...even though my wife didn't want me to
        > go....I
        > had to make the tough decision for both of us. She now with a new
        > husband
        > and child...knows I made the right decision.
        > Anthony Venn-Brown
        > Accredited Life & Business Coach (ACC ICF)
        > Author of 'A Life of Unlearning - Coming Out to the Church, One Man's
        > Struggle' Foreword by Hon. Michael Kirby.
        > Download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE on the book page of
        > anthonyvennbrown.com <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html>
        > Doing all I can to inform, inspire and dispel the myths.
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Bob Griffith [mailto:blgriffith@...]
        > Sent: Saturday, 11 September 2004 00:49
        > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Spam Message:Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Thoughts on Romans
        > Chapter 1
        > Dale,
        > You have mentioned a couple of times, and asked for examples of,
        > positive
        > portrayals of homosexuality in the Bible. The truth is, as you know
        > already I am sure, there are none. Some posit that Jonathan and David
        > (I
        > can't remember the reference right now) are examples, but that theory is
        > very questionable, if not completely doubtful.
        > Those who demand positive biblical examples of homosexuality in order to
        > condone homosexual relationships are not consistent. There are many,
        > many
        > things that are not mentioned in scripture that we do not forsake or
        > condemn simply because they are not mentioned in scripture. There are
        > also plenty of things that are condemned in scripture that we no longer
        > condemn - Alex has given only a few examples.
        > If you desire to remain married to your wife, that is an admirable
        > decision - your marriage vows are important and need to be considered
        > mightily. To enter into and remain married to your wife does not make
        > you
        > any less homosexual, it just means you are a homosexual person who has
        > decided, for whatever reason, to be in relationship with someone of the
        > opposite sex. From what you have written thus far, you know you are
        > attracted to men, period. Yes, you love your wife, but it is men that
        > you
        > are attracted to sexually and long for affectually. Scripturally, you
        > are
        > called to be faithful to your marriage vows - to your wife. You have
        > selected, perhaps erroneously perhaps not, a very difficult life, yet
        > this
        > is where you find yourself. No one is suggesting that going behind your
        > wife's back and engaging in illicit sex with men (or other women) is a
        > godly thing to do. According to your marriage vows to God, it is sin -
        > it
        > is adultery. Thank God for His grace! You have to do what you have to
        > do,
        > according to what you believe God is calling you to do. Do not,
        > however,
        > hide behind the Bible to deny reality in yourself or in our world - both
        > temporal and spiritual. Some have decided, individually or in
        > conjunction
        > with the spouse, the divorce is the best option. It seems that for you,
        > this is not an option.
        > As Alex and others have shown, there are very reasonable and legitimate
        > and Evangelical alternative interpretations of scripture that does not
        > deny the truth, reliability, or sanctity of the Bible, but present the
        > possibility of faithful same-sex relationships under the permissive will
        > of God.
        > What we all have to be very careful of is to not take what we feel God
        > is
        > calling us to do individually and demand all others abide by the same
        > decision or path in life.
        > Bob
        > --- DALE MALHENZIE <ssgdalbz@...> wrote:
        > > Alex,
        > > In respect to the law it was done away with when Christ came. He
        > > himself said he was the fulfillment of it. I dont need to follow all
        > the
        > > jewish idiosyncrasies. Christ even called some very religious people
        > > whited sepulchres. Sounds a little different that the tolerance
        > message
        > > that is going around today. Maybe I would think that ssa is okay if
        > > there were some clear instances in the Bible of it being shown in a
        > holy
        > > light. I might be blind( I am legally) but I dont see it. I do see a
        > lot
        > > of verses that say he took a wife. Even Lot tried to offer his
        > > Daughters for sex. Its not mentioned that Lot ever had sex with a man
        > > but I am sure that there were plenty of guys around he could have. If
        > he
        > > didn't I dont know how he managed. I dont know all the customs in Lots
        > > city either. It looks to me like they were not living right or else
        > God
        > > would have not destroyed them.
        > > As far as other hurting others. If some had not hurt me I would
        > > not be having this dialogue with you. I was approached by several guys
        > > before I had the desire to do anything with them. There is much
        > voiced
        > > about the the rights of the gays to not be discrimated against. Where
        > > are the voices that shoould have said leave Dale alone so he can live
        > a
        > > happier life until the Lord comes again or he leaves here thru death?
        > I
        > > am just a little bit tired today and may not sound very loving. I am
        > > guilty of a lot of things sometimes. dale
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