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RE: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Exodus launches deceptive ad campaign

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  • Jackie Y
    Thank you Alex, I appreciate your kind reply! I have read your three scenarios before and know that what you are talking about is all too true. I would have
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 28, 2004
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      Thank you Alex,

      I appreciate your kind reply! I have read your three scenarios before and
      know that what you are talking about is all too true. I would have to say
      that I can see myself in about all three of those scenarios and understand
      them all to well. When I first read, several months ago, what you had to
      say, I thought that it must be said that although this may happen, it does
      happen for a reason. I distinctly remember when I first began to question
      certain teachings, I fully beilieve that the Lord spoke to me, or showed me
      in no uncertain terms, that "even the questions came from him". It was a
      delightful experience and one that I hold dear and try to grasp when I feel
      things such as his undying love for me slip away. I know that we can go in
      all different directions, and a lot of it is caused by pain, but in the end,
      I truly believe that he holds us firmly because of what he did for us on his
      cross. More than ever, I have come to believe that it is not about us as it
      is about him. Through the years that I have been a believer, I have subdued
      and repressed the positive and unconditional love of God, and exchanged it
      for a more than legalistic approach to God. That damage is hard to undo,
      but it comes in time and it comes because he is true to himself and to us.
      I have seen too much CONTRARY to what I have believed over the years that to
      not question would be absurd. It has been said that once you put God in a
      box, you will see how he does not fit. When I stepped outside of the
      legalistic box, it was scary, but in that fear, I began to wonder why I felt
      so safe before when "I had everything figured out". Safety in numbers or
      having all the (wrong) answers can bring a measure of security....until that
      security no longer satisfies.

      Please don't get me wrong, I am not alluding in anyway that you have come
      across that way, I just wanted to VENTILATE a littlle and share my initial
      thoughts to what you shared before, and the same initial thoughts when I
      read it again this evening. I appreciate what you do, and all that you
      share here. I must read your book, read some of it online and was deeply
      moved by both your experience and your ability to put it into words. Thank
      you for your time and reply.

      Sincerely,

      Jackie

      PS. I am a post op transgendered woman caught somewhere in the middle of it
      no longer matters and hey, this feels good. ;-)


      >From: nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      >Reply-To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      >To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Exodus launches deceptive ad campaign
      >Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:51:31 -0000
      >
      >Hi Jackie:
      >
      >Re your question below: In addition to the more high-profile "ex-
      >gays" who have left these ministries, some of whom were mentioned in
      >other replies to your post today, I can offer you my own perspective
      >and experience. I myself am a former "ex-gay" as well as a
      >former "ex-gay" ministry leader who had been directly and indirectly
      >involved with the "ex-gay" movement for over 20 years. I still
      >follow the movement closely. During that time I had the opportunity
      >to get to know hundreds of "ex-gays" personally -- many who were
      >from Exodus-based ministries across the country and many others from
      >similar "ex-gay" ministries that for one reason or another never
      >came under the official Exodus umbrella. I had the pleasure to
      >minister together with many of them as well and can therefore tell
      >you that most were caring and sincere people who were seeking after
      >God with honest and genuine hearts. I know that because I too was
      >one of them.
      >
      >So what happened to all the people I knew? Very few of them still
      >claim they aren't gay. But what's most tragic is that most of them
      >have long since left the Church altogether. It has been my
      >experience that either Christian people who are gay learn to
      >integrate a theologically conservative, committed Christian faith
      >with their sexuality or one of the following three scenarios will
      >generally occur:
      >
      >(1) REPRESSION AND DENIAL:
      >
      >They continue to repress or suppress their sexuality. Instead of
      >learning to lead honest and authentic lives they succumb to the
      >pressure of conformity and denial. In doing so, what they're often
      >really saying is: I'm now more acceptable to myself and to the
      >people around me. Unfortunately, they don't usually feel that way
      >in the long run. Increasing numbers of Christian counselors now
      >readily admit that "ex-gay" ministries are trying to force people
      >into a mold that doesn't really fit and the results often lead to
      >depression, addiction and sometimes even suicide. Says Terry
      >Norman, a D Min and professional Christian counselor: "When people
      >repress their orientation, in order to make all that work, they
      >[often] hide under layers and layers of incredibly destructive
      >behavior." Norman concluded by saying: "Ultimately, it kills." And
      >if it doesn't physically kill them, it will slowly eat away at their
      >soul. I know because that's what began to happen to me.
      >
      >(2) LEAVE THE CHURCH:
      >
      >With the second scenario in the wake of discovering that the promise
      >of change is a false promise they throw out the baby with the bath
      >water. They conclude that if the Bible doesn't say exactly what
      >they were told it says then any and all turning to Jesus isn't worth
      >anything at all. And unable to separate the two, in hurt, in anger
      >or in disappointment, they tragically end up leaving the Church and
      >their rich faith altogether, trading off the Kingdom of God for a
      >life of God knows what.
      >
      >(3) ADOPT LIBERAL "ANYTHING GOES" THEOLOGY:
      >
      >With the third scenario they seek a group to give them comfort and
      >find too often that only the theologically extremely liberal are
      >willing to take the "outcasts" in. I call this adopting
      >an "anything goes" theology. The formerly orthodox believer then,
      >although slowly and reluctantly at first, begins to adopt the
      >beliefs of the group that is willing to accept him or her. The old
      >ideas and beliefs are so closely associated with the group that
      >inflicted the rejection that they avoid them at all costs. And the
      >rich gospel they once joyfully embraced becomes so watered down one
      >couldn't find it with a magnifying glass.
      >
      >These are the scenarios that have befallen most of the Christian gay
      >people I've known over the past 20-plus years. Of course, these are
      >also a few of the sobering realities that Exodus never reveals to
      >their followers or would-be followers.
      >
      >-Alex
      >
      >--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Jackie Y"
      ><francesfarmer19@h...> wrote:
      > > Dear Alex,
      > >
      > > I have a question concerning the ads that Exodus places and the
      >claims of
      > > Wayne Besen. I am in no way wanting to challenge what Mr. Besen
      >is saying,
      > > but do want to know the facts a little better. Several times I
      >have read
      > > the same reports about the leaders represented in the Exodus ads
      >and their
      > > ministries as having gone "back" into homosexuality. Here is what
      >I want to
      > > know, when this is reported, the word "MANY" is used and then only
      >two main
      > > incidences are given, I would hardly call this "MANY" and would
      >like to know
      > > if there was further proof substantiating the use of the word. I
      >have
      > > always thought that many would mean a large portion of them. I
      >am, as I
      > > said, not challenging that this is not true, but I did see a
      >questionable
      > > statement that might be a detraction from the integrity of the
      >statements.
      > > Thanks for any insight, help.
      > >
      > > Jackie
      > >
      > > >From: dixibehr@a...
      > > >Reply-To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      > > >To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, WBesen@a...
      > > >Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Exodus launches deceptive ad
      >campaign
      > > >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:39:19 EDT
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >In a message dated 7/27/04 7:01:37 PM, no_reply@yahoogroups.com
      >writes:
      > > >
      > > ><< Besen
      > > >
      > > >states, among other things, that the Exodus campaign says "gay
      > > >
      > > >people can become heterosexual through prayer and therapy."
      > > >
      > > >However, what I have always found most interesting about Exodus'
      > > >
      > > >guarded marketing ploys is that they are extremely cautious about
      > > >
      > > >the half-truths they proclaim. For example, they NEVER claim that
      > > >
      > > >they, nor anyone who has come to any of their ministries, have
      > > >
      > > >become "heterosexual." >>
      > > >
      > > >FWIW, a clergyman of my acquaintance had some e-mail
      >correspondence with
      > > >Heather Schaife, secretary and spokesman for EXODUS. She said IN
      >SO MANY
      > > >WORDS
      > > >that EXODUS has never claiemd to make people straight, or change
      >them from
      > > >homosexuality, and that anyone who says they do is not
      >spiritually mature.
      > > >When
      > > >asked what EXODUS is doing to correct this popular misconception,
      >she
      > > >replied,
      > > >"I'm bringing this correspondence to a close. It is not
      >profitable."
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >To drag strangers into the conversation, a Stranger greater than
      >anyone
      > > >connected with EXODUS' said, "Let your yes be yes and your no be
      >no,
      > > >because
      > > >anything beyond this is of the evil one."
      > >
      > > _________________________________________________________________
      > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
      > > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
      >

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    • Jackie Y
      Hi Alex, Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa......it was not your book that I was referring to, it was Anthony s....so sorry for the temporary air caught
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 28, 2004
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        Hi Alex,

        Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa......it was not your book that I was
        referring to, it was Anthony's....so sorry for the temporary air caught
        atwixt my ears.

        Jackie

        _________________________________________________________________
        Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to �Dig Yourself Out of Debt� from MSN
        Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx
      • JC
        Hi Alex: I know your three categories were not meant to be exhaustive, but I don t believe I fall into any one of those. I hold fast to my Christian faith, but
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 28, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Alex:

          I know your three categories were not meant to be exhaustive, but I don't believe I fall into any one of those.

          I hold fast to my Christian faith, but my theology is definitely more progressive than it used to be, and I am more open to the idea of God in 'the other' . That is true because of my experiences of life and Christian faith since coming out. That being said, I am not a "theologically extremely liberal" Christian in regard to my theology. I am still a Christian who looks to Scripture and tradition to interpret my experiences. I wrestle with God and am full of doubts and assurances, because of my on-going relationship with Jesus Christ.

          I no longer claim the evangelical label, but the Christian one I am proud to wear. And this I do with a progressive approach to how I apply my historical faith to this crazy world we live in.

          Just my two cents,
          James

          nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
          Hi Jackie:

          Re your question below: In addition to the more high-profile "ex-
          gays" who have left these ministries, some of whom were mentioned in
          other replies to your post today, I can offer you my own perspective
          and experience. I myself am a former "ex-gay" as well as a
          former "ex-gay" ministry leader who had been directly and indirectly
          involved with the "ex-gay" movement for over 20 years. I still
          follow the movement closely. During that time I had the opportunity
          to get to know hundreds of "ex-gays" personally -- many who were
          from Exodus-based ministries across the country and many others from
          similar "ex-gay" ministries that for one reason or another never
          came under the official Exodus umbrella. I had the pleasure to
          minister together with many of them as well and can therefore tell
          you that most were caring and sincere people who were seeking after
          God with honest and genuine hearts. I know that because I too was
          one of them.

          So what happened to all the people I knew? Very few of them still
          claim they aren't gay. But what's most tragic is that most of them
          have long since left the Church altogether. It has been my
          experience that either Christian people who are gay learn to
          integrate a theologically conservative, committed Christian faith
          with their sexuality or one of the following three scenarios will
          generally occur:

          (1) REPRESSION AND DENIAL:

          They continue to repress or suppress their sexuality. Instead of
          learning to lead honest and authentic lives they succumb to the
          pressure of conformity and denial. In doing so, what they're often
          really saying is: I'm now more acceptable to myself and to the
          people around me. Unfortunately, they don't usually feel that way
          in the long run. Increasing numbers of Christian counselors now
          readily admit that "ex-gay" ministries are trying to force people
          into a mold that doesn't really fit and the results often lead to
          depression, addiction and sometimes even suicide. Says Terry
          Norman, a D Min and professional Christian counselor: "When people
          repress their orientation, in order to make all that work, they
          [often] hide under layers and layers of incredibly destructive
          behavior." Norman concluded by saying: "Ultimately, it kills." And
          if it doesn't physically kill them, it will slowly eat away at their
          soul. I know because that's what began to happen to me.

          (2) LEAVE THE CHURCH:

          With the second scenario in the wake of discovering that the promise
          of change is a false promise they throw out the baby with the bath
          water. They conclude that if the Bible doesn't say exactly what
          they were told it says then any and all turning to Jesus isn't worth
          anything at all. And unable to separate the two, in hurt, in anger
          or in disappointment, they tragically end up leaving the Church and
          their rich faith altogether, trading off the Kingdom of God for a
          life of God knows what.

          (3) ADOPT LIBERAL "ANYTHING GOES" THEOLOGY:

          With the third scenario they seek a group to give them comfort and
          find too often that only the theologically extremely liberal are
          willing to take the "outcasts" in. I call this adopting
          an "anything goes" theology. The formerly orthodox believer then,
          although slowly and reluctantly at first, begins to adopt the
          beliefs of the group that is willing to accept him or her. The old
          ideas and beliefs are so closely associated with the group that
          inflicted the rejection that they avoid them at all costs. And the
          rich gospel they once joyfully embraced becomes so watered down one
          couldn't find it with a magnifying glass.

          These are the scenarios that have befallen most of the Christian gay
          people I've known over the past 20-plus years. Of course, these are
          also a few of the sobering realities that Exodus never reveals to
          their followers or would-be followers.

          -Alex

          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Jackie Y"
          <francesfarmer19@h...> wrote:
          > Dear Alex,
          >
          > I have a question concerning the ads that Exodus places and the
          claims of
          > Wayne Besen. I am in no way wanting to challenge what Mr. Besen
          is saying,
          > but do want to know the facts a little better. Several times I
          have read
          > the same reports about the leaders represented in the Exodus ads
          and their
          > ministries as having gone "back" into homosexuality. Here is what
          I want to
          > know, when this is reported, the word "MANY" is used and then only
          two main
          > incidences are given, I would hardly call this "MANY" and would
          like to know
          > if there was further proof substantiating the use of the word. I
          have
          > always thought that many would mean a large portion of them. I
          am, as I
          > said, not challenging that this is not true, but I did see a
          questionable
          > statement that might be a detraction from the integrity of the
          statements.
          > Thanks for any insight, help.
          >
          > Jackie
          >
          > >From: dixibehr@a...
          > >Reply-To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, WBesen@a...
          > >Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Exodus launches deceptive ad
          campaign
          > >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:39:19 EDT
          > >
          > >
          > >In a message dated 7/27/04 7:01:37 PM, no_reply@yahoogroups.com
          writes:
          > >
          > ><< Besen
          > >
          > >states, among other things, that the Exodus campaign says "gay
          > >
          > >people can become heterosexual through prayer and therapy."
          > >
          > >However, what I have always found most interesting about Exodus'
          > >
          > >guarded marketing ploys is that they are extremely cautious about
          > >
          > >the half-truths they proclaim. For example, they NEVER claim that
          > >
          > >they, nor anyone who has come to any of their ministries, have
          > >
          > >become "heterosexual." >>
          > >
          > >FWIW, a clergyman of my acquaintance had some e-mail
          correspondence with
          > >Heather Schaife, secretary and spokesman for EXODUS. She said IN
          SO MANY
          > >WORDS
          > >that EXODUS has never claiemd to make people straight, or change
          them from
          > >homosexuality, and that anyone who says they do is not
          spiritually mature.
          > >When
          > >asked what EXODUS is doing to correct this popular misconception,
          she
          > >replied,
          > >"I'm bringing this correspondence to a close. It is not
          profitable."
          > >
          > >
          > >To drag strangers into the conversation, a Stranger greater than
          anyone
          > >connected with EXODUS' said, "Let your yes be yes and your no be
          no,
          > >because
          > >anything beyond this is of the evil one."
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
          > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/


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        • nyguy_1225
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 28, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            <<I have read your three scenarios before and know that what you are
            talking about is all too true. I would have to say that I can see
            myself in about all three of those scenarios and understand them all
            to well.>>

            I think many of us have walked in one or more of them along the way
            (I know I sure have) and yet each of our journeys is unique. Our
            walks with God are fluid -- not static -- and we learn as we go.
            Most importantly you seem to have a firm grasp on the fact that God
            loves you. You know that he can not love you more and that he will
            not love you less. I believe that at the end of the day that's the
            most important truth any of us can possess.

            -Alex

            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Jackie Y"
            <francesfarmer19@h...> wrote:
            >
            > Thank you Alex,
            >
            > I appreciate your kind reply! I have read your three scenarios
            before and
            > know that what you are talking about is all too true. I would
            have to say
            > that I can see myself in about all three of those scenarios and
            understand
            > them all to well. When I first read, several months ago, what you
            had to
            > say, I thought that it must be said that although this may happen,
            it does
            > happen for a reason. I distinctly remember when I first began to
            question
            > certain teachings, I fully beilieve that the Lord spoke to me, or
            showed me
            > in no uncertain terms, that "even the questions came from him".
            It was a
            > delightful experience and one that I hold dear and try to grasp
            when I feel
            > things such as his undying love for me slip away. I know that we
            can go in
            > all different directions, and a lot of it is caused by pain, but
            in the end,
            > I truly believe that he holds us firmly because of what he did for
            us on his
            > cross. More than ever, I have come to believe that it is not
            about us as it
            > is about him. Through the years that I have been a believer, I
            have subdued
            > and repressed the positive and unconditional love of God, and
            exchanged it
            > for a more than legalistic approach to God. That damage is hard
            to undo,
            > but it comes in time and it comes because he is true to himself
            and to us.
            > I have seen too much CONTRARY to what I have believed over the
            years that to
            > not question would be absurd. It has been said that once you put
            God in a
            > box, you will see how he does not fit. When I stepped outside of
            the
            > legalistic box, it was scary, but in that fear, I began to wonder
            why I felt
            > so safe before when "I had everything figured out". Safety in
            numbers or
            > having all the (wrong) answers can bring a measure of
            security....until that
            > security no longer satisfies.
            >
            > Please don't get me wrong, I am not alluding in anyway that you
            have come
            > across that way, I just wanted to VENTILATE a littlle and share my
            initial
            > thoughts to what you shared before, and the same initial thoughts
            when I
            > read it again this evening. I appreciate what you do, and all
            that you
            > share here. I must read your book, read some of it online and
            was deeply
            > moved by both your experience and your ability to put it into
            words. Thank
            > you for your time and reply.
            >
            > Sincerely,
            >
            > Jackie
            >
            > PS. I am a post op transgendered woman caught somewhere in the
            middle of it
            > no longer matters and hey, this feels good. ;-)
            >
            >
            > >From: nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            > >Reply-To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
            > >Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: Exodus launches deceptive ad
            campaign
            > >Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:51:31 -0000
            > >
            > >Hi Jackie:
            > >
            > >Re your question below: In addition to the more high-profile "ex-
            > >gays" who have left these ministries, some of whom were mentioned
            in
            > >other replies to your post today, I can offer you my own
            perspective
            > >and experience. I myself am a former "ex-gay" as well as a
            > >former "ex-gay" ministry leader who had been directly and
            indirectly
            > >involved with the "ex-gay" movement for over 20 years. I still
            > >follow the movement closely. During that time I had the
            opportunity
            > >to get to know hundreds of "ex-gays" personally -- many who were
            > >from Exodus-based ministries across the country and many others
            from
            > >similar "ex-gay" ministries that for one reason or another never
            > >came under the official Exodus umbrella. I had the pleasure to
            > >minister together with many of them as well and can therefore tell
            > >you that most were caring and sincere people who were seeking
            after
            > >God with honest and genuine hearts. I know that because I too was
            > >one of them.
            > >
            > >So what happened to all the people I knew? Very few of them still
            > >claim they aren't gay. But what's most tragic is that most of
            them
            > >have long since left the Church altogether. It has been my
            > >experience that either Christian people who are gay learn to
            > >integrate a theologically conservative, committed Christian faith
            > >with their sexuality or one of the following three scenarios will
            > >generally occur:
            > >
            > >(1) REPRESSION AND DENIAL:
            > >
            > >They continue to repress or suppress their sexuality. Instead of
            > >learning to lead honest and authentic lives they succumb to the
            > >pressure of conformity and denial. In doing so, what they're
            often
            > >really saying is: I'm now more acceptable to myself and to the
            > >people around me. Unfortunately, they don't usually feel that way
            > >in the long run. Increasing numbers of Christian counselors now
            > >readily admit that "ex-gay" ministries are trying to force people
            > >into a mold that doesn't really fit and the results often lead to
            > >depression, addiction and sometimes even suicide. Says Terry
            > >Norman, a D Min and professional Christian counselor: "When people
            > >repress their orientation, in order to make all that work, they
            > >[often] hide under layers and layers of incredibly destructive
            > >behavior." Norman concluded by saying: "Ultimately, it kills."
            And
            > >if it doesn't physically kill them, it will slowly eat away at
            their
            > >soul. I know because that's what began to happen to me.
            > >
            > >(2) LEAVE THE CHURCH:
            > >
            > >With the second scenario in the wake of discovering that the
            promise
            > >of change is a false promise they throw out the baby with the bath
            > >water. They conclude that if the Bible doesn't say exactly what
            > >they were told it says then any and all turning to Jesus isn't
            worth
            > >anything at all. And unable to separate the two, in hurt, in
            anger
            > >or in disappointment, they tragically end up leaving the Church
            and
            > >their rich faith altogether, trading off the Kingdom of God for a
            > >life of God knows what.
            > >
            > >(3) ADOPT LIBERAL "ANYTHING GOES" THEOLOGY:
            > >
            > >With the third scenario they seek a group to give them comfort and
            > >find too often that only the theologically extremely liberal are
            > >willing to take the "outcasts" in. I call this adopting
            > >an "anything goes" theology. The formerly orthodox believer then,
            > >although slowly and reluctantly at first, begins to adopt the
            > >beliefs of the group that is willing to accept him or her. The
            old
            > >ideas and beliefs are so closely associated with the group that
            > >inflicted the rejection that they avoid them at all costs. And
            the
            > >rich gospel they once joyfully embraced becomes so watered down
            one
            > >couldn't find it with a magnifying glass.
            > >
            > >These are the scenarios that have befallen most of the Christian
            gay
            > >people I've known over the past 20-plus years. Of course, these
            are
            > >also a few of the sobering realities that Exodus never reveals to
            > >their followers or would-be followers.
            > >
            > >-Alex
            > >
            > >--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Jackie Y"
            > ><francesfarmer19@h...> wrote:
            > > > Dear Alex,
            > > >
            > > > I have a question concerning the ads that Exodus places and the
            > >claims of
            > > > Wayne Besen. I am in no way wanting to challenge what Mr.
            Besen
            > >is saying,
            > > > but do want to know the facts a little better. Several times I
            > >have read
            > > > the same reports about the leaders represented in the Exodus
            ads
            > >and their
            > > > ministries as having gone "back" into homosexuality. Here is
            what
            > >I want to
            > > > know, when this is reported, the word "MANY" is used and then
            only
            > >two main
            > > > incidences are given, I would hardly call this "MANY" and would
            > >like to know
            > > > if there was further proof substantiating the use of the
            word. I
            > >have
            > > > always thought that many would mean a large portion of them. I
            > >am, as I
            > > > said, not challenging that this is not true, but I did see a
            > >questionable
            > > > statement that might be a detraction from the integrity of the
            > >statements.
            > > > Thanks for any insight, help.
            > > >
            > > > Jackie
            > > >
            > > > >From: dixibehr@a...
            > > > >Reply-To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
            > > > >To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, WBesen@a...
            > > > >Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Exodus launches deceptive ad
            > >campaign
            > > > >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:39:19 EDT
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >In a message dated 7/27/04 7:01:37 PM,
            no_reply@yahoogroups.com
            > >writes:
            > > > >
            > > > ><< Besen
            > > > >
            > > > >states, among other things, that the Exodus campaign says "gay
            > > > >
            > > > >people can become heterosexual through prayer and therapy."
            > > > >
            > > > >However, what I have always found most interesting about
            Exodus'
            > > > >
            > > > >guarded marketing ploys is that they are extremely cautious
            about
            > > > >
            > > > >the half-truths they proclaim. For example, they NEVER claim
            that
            > > > >
            > > > >they, nor anyone who has come to any of their ministries, have
            > > > >
            > > > >become "heterosexual." >>
            > > > >
            > > > >FWIW, a clergyman of my acquaintance had some e-mail
            > >correspondence with
            > > > >Heather Schaife, secretary and spokesman for EXODUS. She said
            IN
            > >SO MANY
            > > > >WORDS
            > > > >that EXODUS has never claiemd to make people straight, or
            change
            > >them from
            > > > >homosexuality, and that anyone who says they do is not
            > >spiritually mature.
            > > > >When
            > > > >asked what EXODUS is doing to correct this popular
            misconception,
            > >she
            > > > >replied,
            > > > >"I'm bringing this correspondence to a close. It is not
            > >profitable."
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >To drag strangers into the conversation, a Stranger greater
            than
            > >anyone
            > > > >connected with EXODUS' said, "Let your yes be yes and your no
            be
            > >no,
            > > > >because
            > > > >anything beyond this is of the evil one."
            > > >
            > > >
            _________________________________________________________________
            > > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
            > > > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
            > >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
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            McAfee®
            > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?
            cid=3963
          • nyguy_1225
            Thanks for sharing! Words are very powerful things -- and they often
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 28, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              <<I no longer claim the evangelical label, but the Christian one I
              am proud to
              wear.>>

              Thanks for sharing! Words are very powerful things -- and they
              often mean different things to different people. It's obvious even
              from your short post that you love Jesus and have a personal
              relationship with him. Frankly, as far as I'm concerned (and I
              believe as far as God is concerned as well) that's where the rubber
              meets the roads. How that love and relationship gets expressed will
              look different for different people. Christianity is richer, wider,
              deeper and fuller than any one man or one group's expression of
              it. But if you no longer "claim the evangelical label" (which is a
              valid choice) I guess the question that comes to mind for me is what
              connotation or connotations does this word or label have for you
              that you no longer choose to claim it?

              -Alex

              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, JC <roo7861@y...> wrote:
              > Hi Alex:
              >
              > I know your three categories were not meant to be exhaustive, but
              I don't believe I fall into any one of those.
              >
              > I hold fast to my Christian faith, but my theology is definitely
              more progressive than it used to be, and I am more open to the idea
              of God in 'the other' . That is true because of my experiences of
              life and Christian faith since coming out. That being said, I am
              not a "theologically extremely liberal" Christian in regard to my
              theology. I am still a Christian who looks to Scripture and
              tradition to interpret my experiences. I wrestle with God and am
              full of doubts and assurances, because of my on-going relationship
              with Jesus Christ.
              >
              > I no longer claim the evangelical label, but the Christian one I
              am proud to wear. And this I do with a progressive approach to how
              I apply my historical faith to this crazy world we live in.
              >
              > Just my two cents,
              > James
              >
              > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              > Hi Jackie:
              >
              > Re your question below: In addition to the more high-profile "ex-
              > gays" who have left these ministries, some of whom were mentioned
              in
              > other replies to your post today, I can offer you my own
              perspective
              > and experience. I myself am a former "ex-gay" as well as a
              > former "ex-gay" ministry leader who had been directly and
              indirectly
              > involved with the "ex-gay" movement for over 20 years. I still
              > follow the movement closely. During that time I had the
              opportunity
              > to get to know hundreds of "ex-gays" personally -- many who were
              > from Exodus-based ministries across the country and many others
              from
              > similar "ex-gay" ministries that for one reason or another never
              > came under the official Exodus umbrella. I had the pleasure to
              > minister together with many of them as well and can therefore tell
              > you that most were caring and sincere people who were seeking
              after
              > God with honest and genuine hearts. I know that because I too was
              > one of them.
              >
              > So what happened to all the people I knew? Very few of them still
              > claim they aren't gay. But what's most tragic is that most of
              them
              > have long since left the Church altogether. It has been my
              > experience that either Christian people who are gay learn to
              > integrate a theologically conservative, committed Christian faith
              > with their sexuality or one of the following three scenarios will
              > generally occur:
              >
              > (1) REPRESSION AND DENIAL:
              >
              > They continue to repress or suppress their sexuality. Instead of
              > learning to lead honest and authentic lives they succumb to the
              > pressure of conformity and denial. In doing so, what they're
              often
              > really saying is: I'm now more acceptable to myself and to the
              > people around me. Unfortunately, they don't usually feel that way
              > in the long run. Increasing numbers of Christian counselors now
              > readily admit that "ex-gay" ministries are trying to force people
              > into a mold that doesn't really fit and the results often lead to
              > depression, addiction and sometimes even suicide. Says Terry
              > Norman, a D Min and professional Christian counselor: "When people
              > repress their orientation, in order to make all that work, they
              > [often] hide under layers and layers of incredibly destructive
              > behavior." Norman concluded by saying: "Ultimately, it kills."
              And
              > if it doesn't physically kill them, it will slowly eat away at
              their
              > soul. I know because that's what began to happen to me.
              >
              > (2) LEAVE THE CHURCH:
              >
              > With the second scenario in the wake of discovering that the
              promise
              > of change is a false promise they throw out the baby with the bath
              > water. They conclude that if the Bible doesn't say exactly what
              > they were told it says then any and all turning to Jesus isn't
              worth
              > anything at all. And unable to separate the two, in hurt, in
              anger
              > or in disappointment, they tragically end up leaving the Church
              and
              > their rich faith altogether, trading off the Kingdom of God for a
              > life of God knows what.
              >
              > (3) ADOPT LIBERAL "ANYTHING GOES" THEOLOGY:
              >
              > With the third scenario they seek a group to give them comfort and
              > find too often that only the theologically extremely liberal are
              > willing to take the "outcasts" in. I call this adopting
              > an "anything goes" theology. The formerly orthodox believer then,
              > although slowly and reluctantly at first, begins to adopt the
              > beliefs of the group that is willing to accept him or her. The
              old
              > ideas and beliefs are so closely associated with the group that
              > inflicted the rejection that they avoid them at all costs. And
              the
              > rich gospel they once joyfully embraced becomes so watered down
              one
              > couldn't find it with a magnifying glass.
              >
              > These are the scenarios that have befallen most of the Christian
              gay
              > people I've known over the past 20-plus years. Of course, these
              are
              > also a few of the sobering realities that Exodus never reveals to
              > their followers or would-be followers.
              >
              > -Alex
              >
              > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Jackie Y"
              > <francesfarmer19@h...> wrote:
              > > Dear Alex,
              > >
              > > I have a question concerning the ads that Exodus places and the
              > claims of
              > > Wayne Besen. I am in no way wanting to challenge what Mr. Besen
              > is saying,
              > > but do want to know the facts a little better. Several times I
              > have read
              > > the same reports about the leaders represented in the Exodus ads
              > and their
              > > ministries as having gone "back" into homosexuality. Here is
              what
              > I want to
              > > know, when this is reported, the word "MANY" is used and then
              only
              > two main
              > > incidences are given, I would hardly call this "MANY" and would
              > like to know
              > > if there was further proof substantiating the use of the word.
              I
              > have
              > > always thought that many would mean a large portion of them. I
              > am, as I
              > > said, not challenging that this is not true, but I did see a
              > questionable
              > > statement that might be a detraction from the integrity of the
              > statements.
              > > Thanks for any insight, help.
              > >
              > > Jackie
              > >
              > > >From: dixibehr@a...
              > > >Reply-To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
              > > >To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, WBesen@a...
              > > >Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Exodus launches deceptive ad
              > campaign
              > > >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:39:19 EDT
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >In a message dated 7/27/04 7:01:37 PM, no_reply@yahoogroups.com
              > writes:
              > > >
              > > ><< Besen
              > > >
              > > >states, among other things, that the Exodus campaign says "gay
              > > >
              > > >people can become heterosexual through prayer and therapy."
              > > >
              > > >However, what I have always found most interesting about Exodus'
              > > >
              > > >guarded marketing ploys is that they are extremely cautious
              about
              > > >
              > > >the half-truths they proclaim. For example, they NEVER claim
              that
              > > >
              > > >they, nor anyone who has come to any of their ministries, have
              > > >
              > > >become "heterosexual." >>
              > > >
              > > >FWIW, a clergyman of my acquaintance had some e-mail
              > correspondence with
              > > >Heather Schaife, secretary and spokesman for EXODUS. She said
              IN
              > SO MANY
              > > >WORDS
              > > >that EXODUS has never claiemd to make people straight, or
              change
              > them from
              > > >homosexuality, and that anyone who says they do is not
              > spiritually mature.
              > > >When
              > > >asked what EXODUS is doing to correct this popular
              misconception,
              > she
              > > >replied,
              > > >"I'm bringing this correspondence to a close. It is not
              > profitable."
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >To drag strangers into the conversation, a Stranger greater
              than
              > anyone
              > > >connected with EXODUS' said, "Let your yes be yes and your no
              be
              > no,
              > > >because
              > > >anything beyond this is of the evil one."
              > >
              > > _________________________________________________________________
              > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
              > > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
              >
              >
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              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
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              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dixibehr@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/28/04 6:23:01 PM, roo7861@yahoo.com writes:
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 28, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 7/28/04 6:23:01 PM, roo7861@... writes:

                << I hold fast to my Christian faith, but my theology is definitely more
                progressive than it used to be, and I am more open to the idea of God in 'the
                other' . That is true because of my experiences of life and Christian faith since
                coming out. That being said, I am not a "theologically extremely liberal"
                Christian in regard to my theology. >>

                Even among evangelicals--those who wear the classic label properly--there is
                a wide degree of meaning. The main emphasis is, or should be, on the simple
                truth that Jesus is the all-sufficient savior.

                OTOH, what I call American pop-evangelicals, hold to a debased form of faith
                that is simplistic (as opposed to simple) and can't answer today's questions.
                It even tends towards the heresy of Pelagianism--the doctrine that a man can
                save himself--and Nestorian Christology--a doctrine that separates Jesus from
                Christ. (I won't elaborate on these here.)

                I will also distinguish evangelicalism from fundamentalism--an honorable
                theological position that is all too frequently misused.

                I would urge all people on this list to visit the site musingson.com (or is
                it musingson.org?). It's by a presbyterian minister's wife. She's definitely on
                a journey herself.

                The main thing is: don't let the ignorance and prejudice and bigotry of
                anybody cheat you of Jesus. That way the Devil wins.

                Hugs,

                Jack
              • JC
                Hi Alex, Jack and All: First of all, I should say that I know the evangelical and fundamentalist subcultures (and their differences) very well. I was raised
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 29, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Alex, Jack and All:

                  First of all, I should say that I know the evangelical and fundamentalist subcultures (and their differences) very well. I was raised in the home of a fundamentalist minister and educated in an evangelical liberal arts college and received a master of divinity degree from an evangelical seminary.

                  The one gift of my evangelical background that I continue to celebrate is my relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe in the "warm hearted" experience and the changed life as a result of a vibrant relationship with God. However, evangelicalism fails (in my opinion) when it becomes exclusive in its claims about a whole host of issues. There is a great difference between proclaiming that Jesus is the Savior of the world (which I do) and proclaiming that we have a corner on all truth. I am not talking about the "scandal of particularity." I am talking about an attitude that prevents dialogue from even beginning because of the assumption that we have nothing to learn from people of other traditions.

                  Enjoying the Discussion,
                  James


                  nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                  <<I no longer claim the evangelical label, but the Christian one I
                  am proud to
                  wear.>>

                  Thanks for sharing! Words are very powerful things -- and they
                  often mean different things to different people. It's obvious even
                  from your short post that you love Jesus and have a personal
                  relationship with him. Frankly, as far as I'm concerned (and I
                  believe as far as God is concerned as well) that's where the rubber
                  meets the roads. How that love and relationship gets expressed will
                  look different for different people. Christianity is richer, wider,
                  deeper and fuller than any one man or one group's expression of
                  it. But if you no longer "claim the evangelical label" (which is a
                  valid choice) I guess the question that comes to mind for me is what
                  connotation or connotations does this word or label have for you
                  that you no longer choose to claim it?

                  -Alex

                  --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, JC <roo7861@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi Alex:
                  >
                  > I know your three categories were not meant to be exhaustive, but
                  I don't believe I fall into any one of those.
                  >
                  > I hold fast to my Christian faith, but my theology is definitely
                  more progressive than it used to be, and I am more open to the idea
                  of God in 'the other' . That is true because of my experiences of
                  life and Christian faith since coming out. That being said, I am
                  not a "theologically extremely liberal" Christian in regard to my
                  theology. I am still a Christian who looks to Scripture and
                  tradition to interpret my experiences. I wrestle with God and am
                  full of doubts and assurances, because of my on-going relationship
                  with Jesus Christ.
                  >
                  > I no longer claim the evangelical label, but the Christian one I
                  am proud to wear. And this I do with a progressive approach to how
                  I apply my historical faith to this crazy world we live in.
                  >
                  > Just my two cents,
                  > James
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • nyguy_1225
                  Thanks for your comments; I m enjoying the discussion too. So you re a PK! You probably have lots of stories. Actually there are all sorts of evangelicals
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 29, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks for your comments; I'm enjoying the discussion too. So
                    you're a PK! You probably have lots of stories.

                    Actually there are all sorts of evangelicals (just as there are all
                    sorts of gay people!). According to one evangelical history
                    professor: "Once past a shared commitment to a supernatural gospel,
                    evangelicals are all over the place theologically." [Mark Noll] The
                    president of Southern Baptist Seminary joins a church historian at
                    Westminster Seminary to declare that "No single evangelical
                    tradition exists." [Albert Mohler, Jr. and D. G. Hart] A Regent
                    College theology professor states: "Evangelicalism is a network and
                    tradition of Christians united on a few select convictions. As
                    such, evangelicalism is not essentially committed to this or that …
                    so long as Christ is glorified, the Bible obeyed, the gospel
                    preached and the kingdom extended." [John G. Stackhouse, Jr.]

                    "Evangelical identity," says an Anglican evangelical, "has come to
                    embrace such a wide range of theological options." And he grants
                    that it has been so ever since the 18th century split between John
                    Wesley and George Whitefield – during the very beginnings of what is
                    known as evangelicalism. [Gerald Bray] He notes that "from that day
                    to this, there has never been an evangelical church or even a
                    confession of faith, which all evangelicals can accept as definitive
                    of this movement."

                    I suppose for me, I like the "evangelical" label because I think it
                    says something about my own commitment to a supernatural gospel. I
                    happen to love the Word of God and never cease to be amazed at its
                    richness and depth. And as a Jewish believer, I am enthralled by
                    the fact that God, through the prophets of Israel, gave clear and
                    detailed prophecies concerning the promised Messiah (Christ) who
                    would one day set foot onto the stage of human history.

                    And not just a few isolated references: God provided more than 300
                    prophecies spread throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. And it wasn't
                    just a few people who came together to formulate such an intricate
                    and detailed plan: The Hebrew Scriptures were written over a 1,000
                    year span and by more than 30 different authors -- which eliminates
                    any possibility of editorial manipulation because the prophecies
                    were written by different people who lived in different places and
                    at different times in history -- yet each pointing to the same one
                    individual. And these prophecies encompass a wealth of identifying
                    characteristics about him.

                    There are prophesies of his pre-existence, his ancestry, his birth,
                    his character, his ministry, his dual nature, his death, and his
                    resurrection. Stuff like this never ceases to blow me away. Marv
                    Rosenthal once said: "To suggest that mere men maneuvered and
                    manipulated to make the myriad of events surrounding the birth of
                    Christ fit the Old Testament pattern is ludicrous. Far easier would
                    it be to disassemble a complex watch, throw the dismembered parts
                    into a running clothes dryer and believe that in due course, given
                    enough time, the watch would be whole, running on time, to the very
                    second." I find that this high view of Scripture which I have
                    always had (as both a gay man and an "ex-gay" man) is often not
                    shared by non-evangelicals.

                    -Alex


                    --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, JC <roo7861@y...> wrote:
                    > Hi Alex, Jack and All:
                    >
                    > First of all, I should say that I know the evangelical and
                    fundamentalist subcultures (and their differences) very well. I was
                    raised in the home of a fundamentalist minister and educated in an
                    evangelical liberal arts college and received a master of divinity
                    degree from an evangelical seminary.
                    >
                    > The one gift of my evangelical background that I continue to
                    celebrate is my relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe in
                    the "warm hearted" experience and the changed life as a result of a
                    vibrant relationship with God. However, evangelicalism fails (in my
                    opinion) when it becomes exclusive in its claims about a whole host
                    of issues. There is a great difference between proclaiming that
                    Jesus is the Savior of the world (which I do) and proclaiming that
                    we have a corner on all truth. I am not talking about the "scandal
                    of particularity." I am talking about an attitude that prevents
                    dialogue from even beginning because of the assumption that we have
                    nothing to learn from people of other traditions.
                    >
                    > Enjoying the Discussion,
                    > James
                    >
                    >
                    > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    > <<I no longer claim the evangelical label, but the Christian one I
                    > am proud to
                    > wear.>>
                    >
                    > Thanks for sharing! Words are very powerful things -- and they
                    > often mean different things to different people. It's obvious
                    even
                    > from your short post that you love Jesus and have a personal
                    > relationship with him. Frankly, as far as I'm concerned (and I
                    > believe as far as God is concerned as well) that's where the
                    rubber
                    > meets the roads. How that love and relationship gets expressed
                    will
                    > look different for different people. Christianity is richer,
                    wider,
                    > deeper and fuller than any one man or one group's expression of
                    > it. But if you no longer "claim the evangelical label" (which is
                    a
                    > valid choice) I guess the question that comes to mind for me is
                    what
                    > connotation or connotations does this word or label have for you
                    > that you no longer choose to claim it?
                    >
                    > -Alex
                    >
                    > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, JC <roo7861@y...> wrote:
                    > > Hi Alex:
                    > >
                    > > I know your three categories were not meant to be exhaustive,
                    but
                    > I don't believe I fall into any one of those.
                    > >
                    > > I hold fast to my Christian faith, but my theology is definitely
                    > more progressive than it used to be, and I am more open to the
                    idea
                    > of God in 'the other' . That is true because of my experiences of
                    > life and Christian faith since coming out. That being said, I am
                    > not a "theologically extremely liberal" Christian in regard to my
                    > theology. I am still a Christian who looks to Scripture and
                    > tradition to interpret my experiences. I wrestle with God and am
                    > full of doubts and assurances, because of my on-going relationship
                    > with Jesus Christ.
                    > >
                    > > I no longer claim the evangelical label, but the Christian one I
                    > am proud to wear. And this I do with a progressive approach to
                    how
                    > I apply my historical faith to this crazy world we live in.
                    > >
                    > > Just my two cents,
                    > > James
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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