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Re: About your conference on homosexuality.

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  • nyguy_1225
    Jack, for purposes of clarity, you won t find anything or anyone on this site who claims we know the root causes of homosexually. You can argue over the root
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 20, 2004
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      Jack, for purposes of clarity, you won't find anything or anyone on
      this site who claims we know the root causes of homosexually. You
      can argue over the root causes of homosexuality until the cows come
      home. But in the final analysis nobody knows what causes some
      people to be gay and others to be straight. You can read various
      books and publications that talk about this cause and that cause and
      the other cause. Every social scientist I know who has analyzed
      this problem says we don't know what the causes are.

      There are those who talk about genetics. There are those who talk
      about biophysical. There are those that talk about sociological,
      psychological factors. Nobody knows. And those who are experts say,
      for the most part, there are a variety of factors that interact with
      each other to create homosexuality and it may even be that no two
      people are gay for the same reason. We don't know what causes it.
      What we do know is that the imprinting, the establishment of the
      orientation occurred so early in the development of the individual
      that the individual never remembers having made a choice. That's
      important because I often hear rhetoric that says if you just pray
      and repent and turn away from this that God will honor the request
      and all will be well. One look at the dismal success rate and dark
      history of the ex-gay movement crushes that theory right from the
      get-go.

      It's not that I believe God is not able. I believe God can do
      anything. He's God! God can make donkeys fly. But does he? God's
      primary concern is not to change the sexual orientation of gay and
      lesbian people -- to bring them in line with social norms -- but to
      help them become secure in Him, assured of His love and acceptance
      and set apart to follow Him faithfully and responsibly. We need to
      remember that Jesus was not crucified for maintaining the religious
      status quo.

      It's also true that most, if not all who post here, are in agreement
      that there is nothing incongruous with being both gay and
      Christian. Some of here are men and women of profound faith and
      with a very high view of Scripture. The fact is the few passages in
      Scripture that proscribe sexual union between men all seek to
      address sins of idolatry, rebellion, self-indulgence, abuse, or
      grossly irresponsible behavior. None refer to gay or straight
      people, who love their partners, are faithful to them and who shun
      sexual immorality, according to biblical definitions. Throughout
      the Bible we find instructions to shun sexual immorality and seek
      the highest moral standard that reflects the Spirit of Christ (e.g.
      Rom. 13:11-14; 1 Cor. 6:13-20 and 7:1-3; Eph. 5:1-5; Col 3:5-17, to
      cite a few examples). However, the fact that the violation of
      others is strongly condemned does not mean that all homosexual
      behavior warrants such censure any more than all heterosexuals are
      to be condemned for their sexual behavior by association with the
      sins of pedophilia, lust, rape, fornication or adultery.

      You may also wish to check out the link in the Files section "Like
      the Wideness of the Sea." Its an extremely well-written and thought-
      provoking essay by Dr. Lewis Smedes.

      -Alex


      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, dixibehr@a... wrote:
      > I've noticed two things on your site regarding this.
      >
      > 1. You say that you know the root causes of homosexuality. Most
      itneresting.
      > It's something that psychologists and similar professionals have
      debated for
      > decades (both those who are gay-friendly and those of the opposite
      view), and
      > there has NEVER been agreement. Theories have been tridd and
      rejected. How did
      > YOU come up with the nawer to th is mystery?
      >
      > 2. If there is an escape from homosexuality, the USA office of Dr.
      Dobson's
      > Focus on the Family certainly has not found it.
      >
      > In case you didn't know, in October of 2000, their former
      travelling speaker
      > and expert on sexuality and gender issues, John Paulk (also
      sometime chairman
      > of the board of EXODUS, the cumbrell a ex-gay ministries) was seen
      AND
      > PHOTOGRAPHED in a gay bar in Washington, DC. He was seen by
      witnesses trying to buy
      > men drinks, chatting them up, and saying he himself was gay--
      giving a false
      > name all the time, btw.
      >
      > One of the men he approached was someone who had publicly debated
      him on this
      > very issue.
      >
      > Of course, the story and pictures were immediately circulated
      througout the
      > gay press.
      >
      > John Paulk tried several different times to lie his way out of it.
      First, he
      > said it didn't happen. Next he tried saying that he was merely
      taking his
      > evening walk (in Dupont Circle, the know gay ghetto of DC) and had
      to use the
      > restroom--so he avoided a well lighted hotel, and well lighted
      coffeeshop and went
      > into an unlighted, hidden doorway below street level. He was there
      over an
      > hour--and NOT using the restroom, as the bartender confirmed.
      >
      > Finally the board of EXODUS got an approximation of the truth:
      That Paulk had
      > done this type of thing frequently when out of town on ex-gay
      business, and
      > said he needed to relax. From what? If he had truly "escaped from
      > homosexuality," he wouldn't suffer the tension that most gay men
      feel who are pretending to
      > be that which they are not, and hence would have no need
      of "relaxing" at a
      > gay bar!
      >
      > Of course, he was fired from FOF and EXODUS. Excuse me; let me be
      more
      > accurate. He resigned from both organizations, and took his family
      to another state,
      > to "concentrate on his family."
      >
      > Another ex-gay poster boy, Michael Johnston, had his own ex-gay
      ministry:
      > Kerusso Ministries. A few months ago his minstry and web site were
      closed, and
      > Johnston went to a treatment center for sexual compulsives. It
      seems that he was
      > organizing gay male orgies and knowingly infecting all the
      participants with
      > HIV. This is a crime--a felony--in most states of the USA. I KNOW
      he knew he
      > had AIDS, because he said so publicly in Phoenix, the first stop
      of the HOPE
      > '97 tour (sponsored by himself and the American Family
      Association). BTW--the
      > nationwide tour closed after the second city; there was never a
      third.
      >
      > Colin Cook, founder of the organization that became Homosexuals
      Anonymous,
      > another ex-gay trophy, was discovered to have been having sex with
      his
      > counsellees. (I won't go into the stories of the many chapters of
      HA that have folded
      > due to attrition, members, and even facilitators, eloping, and the
      like.)
      >
      > What is it that you have to offer that will bring about a
      guaranteed change
      > from unchosen homosexual orientation to heterosexuality? It would
      certainly be
      > an answer to prayer for the millions of gay and lesbian Christians
      who have
      > tried everything to become heterosexual, and just have not
      achieved it.
      >
      > Surely, you are not thinking that mere abstinence from homogenital
      acts means
      > that one has "changed." This is the definition of "success" used
      by the
      > National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality
      (NARTH). Think a
      > minute--does mere abstinence from heterosexual activity mean that
      one is now gay?
      >
      >
      > Dr. Charles Socarides, founder and sometime president of NARTH,
      says that
      > gays come from dysfunctional families with smothering parents, and
      he's the man
      > to can fix it. Yet his own adult son Richard is openly gay. If he
      can't make
      > his OWN son heterosexual, where did he get the idea that he could
      make other
      > people's sons heerosexual?
      >
      > Of course, Dr. Socarides might know something about dysfunctional
      families.
      > He himself has been married and divorced three times. While anyone
      can mke ONE
      > mistake, one would reasonably think that a psychiatrist would be a
      good enough
      > judge of character not to make the wrong choice of spouse THREE
      TIMES.
      >
      > Of course, as we know from the present divorce rate--in the USA
      the number of
      > divorces in a year is over half that of the number of
      > marriages--heterosexuals just cannot sustain long-term
      relationships nor can they take the word
      > "commitment" seriously.
      >
      > Sincerely in Christ,
      >
      > Jack Isaacks
      > Phoenix, Arizona, USA
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • nyguy_1225
      Correction to the last line in post #2986: While the title of the essay is indeed Like the Wideness of the Sea, it can be found in the Files section under
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 20, 2004
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        Correction to the last line in post #2986: While the title of the
        essay is indeed "Like the Wideness of the Sea," it can be found in
        the "Files" section under the link "SMEDES.PDF."

        Sorry for the confusion,
        -Alex

        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
        wrote:
        > Jack, for purposes of clarity, you won't find anything or anyone
        on
        > this site who claims we know the root causes of homosexually. You
        > can argue over the root causes of homosexuality until the cows
        come
        > home. But in the final analysis nobody knows what causes some
        > people to be gay and others to be straight. You can read various
        > books and publications that talk about this cause and that cause
        and
        > the other cause. Every social scientist I know who has analyzed
        > this problem says we don't know what the causes are.
        >
        > There are those who talk about genetics. There are those who talk
        > about biophysical. There are those that talk about sociological,
        > psychological factors. Nobody knows. And those who are experts
        say,
        > for the most part, there are a variety of factors that interact
        with
        > each other to create homosexuality and it may even be that no two
        > people are gay for the same reason. We don't know what causes
        it.
        > What we do know is that the imprinting, the establishment of the
        > orientation occurred so early in the development of the individual
        > that the individual never remembers having made a choice. That's
        > important because I often hear rhetoric that says if you just pray
        > and repent and turn away from this that God will honor the request
        > and all will be well. One look at the dismal success rate and
        dark
        > history of the ex-gay movement crushes that theory right from the
        > get-go.
        >
        > It's not that I believe God is not able. I believe God can do
        > anything. He's God! God can make donkeys fly. But does he?
        God's
        > primary concern is not to change the sexual orientation of gay and
        > lesbian people -- to bring them in line with social norms -- but
        to
        > help them become secure in Him, assured of His love and acceptance
        > and set apart to follow Him faithfully and responsibly. We need
        to
        > remember that Jesus was not crucified for maintaining the
        religious
        > status quo.
        >
        > It's also true that most, if not all who post here, are in
        agreement
        > that there is nothing incongruous with being both gay and
        > Christian. Some of here are men and women of profound faith and
        > with a very high view of Scripture. The fact is the few passages
        in
        > Scripture that proscribe sexual union between men all seek to
        > address sins of idolatry, rebellion, self-indulgence, abuse, or
        > grossly irresponsible behavior. None refer to gay or straight
        > people, who love their partners, are faithful to them and who shun
        > sexual immorality, according to biblical definitions. Throughout
        > the Bible we find instructions to shun sexual immorality and seek
        > the highest moral standard that reflects the Spirit of Christ
        (e.g.
        > Rom. 13:11-14; 1 Cor. 6:13-20 and 7:1-3; Eph. 5:1-5; Col 3:5-17,
        to
        > cite a few examples). However, the fact that the violation of
        > others is strongly condemned does not mean that all homosexual
        > behavior warrants such censure any more than all heterosexuals are
        > to be condemned for their sexual behavior by association with the
        > sins of pedophilia, lust, rape, fornication or adultery.
        >
        > You may also wish to check out the link in the Files section "Like
        > the Wideness of the Sea." Its an extremely well-written and
        thought-
        > provoking essay by Dr. Lewis Smedes.
        >
        > -Alex
        >
        >
        > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, dixibehr@a... wrote:
        > > I've noticed two things on your site regarding this.
        > >
        > > 1. You say that you know the root causes of homosexuality. Most
        > itneresting.
        > > It's something that psychologists and similar professionals have
        > debated for
        > > decades (both those who are gay-friendly and those of the
        opposite
        > view), and
        > > there has NEVER been agreement. Theories have been tridd and
        > rejected. How did
        > > YOU come up with the nawer to th is mystery?
        > >
        > > 2. If there is an escape from homosexuality, the USA office of
        Dr.
        > Dobson's
        > > Focus on the Family certainly has not found it.
        > >
        > > In case you didn't know, in October of 2000, their former
        > travelling speaker
        > > and expert on sexuality and gender issues, John Paulk (also
        > sometime chairman
        > > of the board of EXODUS, the cumbrell a ex-gay ministries) was
        seen
        > AND
        > > PHOTOGRAPHED in a gay bar in Washington, DC. He was seen by
        > witnesses trying to buy
        > > men drinks, chatting them up, and saying he himself was gay--
        > giving a false
        > > name all the time, btw.
        > >
        > > One of the men he approached was someone who had publicly
        debated
        > him on this
        > > very issue.
        > >
        > > Of course, the story and pictures were immediately circulated
        > througout the
        > > gay press.
        > >
        > > John Paulk tried several different times to lie his way out of
        it.
        > First, he
        > > said it didn't happen. Next he tried saying that he was merely
        > taking his
        > > evening walk (in Dupont Circle, the know gay ghetto of DC) and
        had
        > to use the
        > > restroom--so he avoided a well lighted hotel, and well lighted
        > coffeeshop and went
        > > into an unlighted, hidden doorway below street level. He was
        there
        > over an
        > > hour--and NOT using the restroom, as the bartender confirmed.
        > >
        > > Finally the board of EXODUS got an approximation of the truth:
        > That Paulk had
        > > done this type of thing frequently when out of town on ex-gay
        > business, and
        > > said he needed to relax. From what? If he had truly "escaped
        from
        > > homosexuality," he wouldn't suffer the tension that most gay men
        > feel who are pretending to
        > > be that which they are not, and hence would have no need
        > of "relaxing" at a
        > > gay bar!
        > >
        > > Of course, he was fired from FOF and EXODUS. Excuse me; let me
        be
        > more
        > > accurate. He resigned from both organizations, and took his
        family
        > to another state,
        > > to "concentrate on his family."
        > >
        > > Another ex-gay poster boy, Michael Johnston, had his own ex-gay
        > ministry:
        > > Kerusso Ministries. A few months ago his minstry and web site
        were
        > closed, and
        > > Johnston went to a treatment center for sexual compulsives. It
        > seems that he was
        > > organizing gay male orgies and knowingly infecting all the
        > participants with
        > > HIV. This is a crime--a felony--in most states of the USA. I
        KNOW
        > he knew he
        > > had AIDS, because he said so publicly in Phoenix, the first stop
        > of the HOPE
        > > '97 tour (sponsored by himself and the American Family
        > Association). BTW--the
        > > nationwide tour closed after the second city; there was never a
        > third.
        > >
        > > Colin Cook, founder of the organization that became Homosexuals
        > Anonymous,
        > > another ex-gay trophy, was discovered to have been having sex
        with
        > his
        > > counsellees. (I won't go into the stories of the many chapters
        of
        > HA that have folded
        > > due to attrition, members, and even facilitators, eloping, and
        the
        > like.)
        > >
        > > What is it that you have to offer that will bring about a
        > guaranteed change
        > > from unchosen homosexual orientation to heterosexuality? It
        would
        > certainly be
        > > an answer to prayer for the millions of gay and lesbian
        Christians
        > who have
        > > tried everything to become heterosexual, and just have not
        > achieved it.
        > >
        > > Surely, you are not thinking that mere abstinence from
        homogenital
        > acts means
        > > that one has "changed." This is the definition of "success" used
        > by the
        > > National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality
        > (NARTH). Think a
        > > minute--does mere abstinence from heterosexual activity mean
        that
        > one is now gay?
        > >
        > >
        > > Dr. Charles Socarides, founder and sometime president of NARTH,
        > says that
        > > gays come from dysfunctional families with smothering parents,
        and
        > he's the man
        > > to can fix it. Yet his own adult son Richard is openly gay. If
        he
        > can't make
        > > his OWN son heterosexual, where did he get the idea that he
        could
        > make other
        > > people's sons heerosexual?
        > >
        > > Of course, Dr. Socarides might know something about
        dysfunctional
        > families.
        > > He himself has been married and divorced three times. While
        anyone
        > can mke ONE
        > > mistake, one would reasonably think that a psychiatrist would be
        a
        > good enough
        > > judge of character not to make the wrong choice of spouse THREE
        > TIMES.
        > >
        > > Of course, as we know from the present divorce rate--in the USA
        > the number of
        > > divorces in a year is over half that of the number of
        > > marriages--heterosexuals just cannot sustain long-term
        > relationships nor can they take the word
        > > "commitment" seriously.
        > >
        > > Sincerely in Christ,
        > >
        > > Jack Isaacks
        > > Phoenix, Arizona, USA
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dixibehr@aol.com
        ... You might have misunderstood. I blindcopied to this yahoogroup an e-mail I sent to this family values group in Singapore that was holding a
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 20, 2004
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          In a message dated 1/20/04 2:14:08 PM, no_reply@yahoogroups.com writes:


          > Jack, for purposes of clarity, you won't find anything or anyone on
          > this site who claims we know the root causes of homosexually.
          >

          You might have misunderstood. I blindcopied to this yahoogroup an e-mail I
          sent to this "family values" group in Singapore that was holding a
          conference--last November, as it turned out--that was claiming to know the causes of
          homosexuality and how to cure it. (At the risk of sounding irreverent, God Himself
          cannot cure that which is not an illness.)

          And I learned about this Singapore Conference from this list.

          Hope this clarifies things.

          And I did enjoy your comments! Lewis Smedes was always a very forward
          thinking Christian.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • nyguy_1225
          Yes, it does clarify. I didn t know your post was a blind copy. I enjoyed your comments too. -Alex ... on ... e-mail I ... know the causes of ... irreverent,
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 20, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Yes, it does clarify. I didn't know your post was a blind copy. I
            enjoyed your comments too.

            -Alex

            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, dixibehr@a... wrote:
            >
            > In a message dated 1/20/04 2:14:08 PM, no_reply@yahoogroups.com
            writes:
            >
            >
            > > Jack, for purposes of clarity, you won't find anything or anyone
            on
            > > this site who claims we know the root causes of homosexually.
            > >
            >
            > You might have misunderstood. I blindcopied to this yahoogroup an
            e-mail I
            > sent to this "family values" group in Singapore that was holding a
            > conference--last November, as it turned out--that was claiming to
            know the causes of
            > homosexuality and how to cure it. (At the risk of sounding
            irreverent, God Himself
            > cannot cure that which is not an illness.)
            >
            > And I learned about this Singapore Conference from this list.
            >
            > Hope this clarifies things.
            >
            > And I did enjoy your comments! Lewis Smedes was always a very
            forward
            > thinking Christian.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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