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Re: Ex-gay ministry exporting to Singapore

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  • alankhoo92002
    Hi Alex, While many people in the United States do know people like you exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in developing countries where
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 1, 2003
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      Hi Alex,

      While many people in the United States do know people like you
      exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
      developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting active.

      In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay ministries
      focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia is the
      rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent. Therefore
      they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to convert
      homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send to them
      before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the convertion
      therapists could be heros and millionaires there...

      The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study to
      propose their position that gays can change. While the Spitzer study
      did not receive promimence in the press in the United States when it
      was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
      countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another developing
      country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing based on
      what appeared in the press (in that country) recently especially
      based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
      unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you because he
      was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is very
      important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in the
      minds of the people if they hear of it.

      In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied registration,
      Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to organize
      seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently lauched
      their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have joined
      their efforts.

      From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the medical
      profession in the country are silent about the homophobic views (and
      in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public these
      homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by the
      right.

      Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the picture -
      ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right as
      legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
      victimized in the West because of gay politics.

      Best wishes,

      Alan



      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
      wrote:
      > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove that we
      > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
      > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone and in
      > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews; some
      > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
      community.
      > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed Christian
      > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out on the
      > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure out
      what
      > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community. We live
      > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different kinds
      of
      > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions; to
      > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape -- just like
      > the heterosexual community.
      >
      > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
      scientific
      > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
      > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
      formulate
      > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is, despite
      > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that we're
      > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people, steadily
      > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
      >
      > -Alex
      >
      > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
      > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
      > > Hi everyone,
      > >
      > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
      > >
      > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
      > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
      > directly
      > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
      > > My question is has anyone done so?
      > >
      > > Best wishes,
      > >
      > > Alan
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
      <no_reply@y...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject of
      > the
      > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I
      > > personally
      > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies
      from
      > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this
      > study
      > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview with
      > one
      > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
      > background
      > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in the
      > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr. Spitzer,
      he
      > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after learning
      > that
      > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
      > explained
      > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays can
      > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED FROM
      > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
      > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE CONCLUSION
      > HE
      > > > DID.
      > > >
      > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted this
      > > study
      > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and distorted
      > his
      > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced the
      > study
      > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the
      > research
      > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200.
      Some
      > of
      > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not submitted
      > for
      > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility of
      > any
      > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45
      > > minutes,
      > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample and a
      > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
      > verification
      > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation. It's
      > clear
      > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were honest.
      > > >
      > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
      > change.
      > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any hard
      > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable. And
      > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no biblical
      > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone
      > survey
      > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
      > > directly
      > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
      > > >
      > > > -Alex
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
      > > <ophoguy@o...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > Hi Alan,
      > > > >
      > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for about
      30
      > > > years and say
      > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
      > However,
      > > > when
      > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
      > established
      > > ex-
      > > > gays to
      > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his study
      > > > through ex-gay
      > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200
      > eligible
      > > > > participants for his study.
      > > > >
      > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from gay
      > to
      > > > straight,
      > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
      attractions,
      > > > they use peer
      > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are high.
      > > Once
      > > > people
      > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change, a
      > lot
      > > of
      > > > them
      > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian. Quite a
      > few
      > > > local
      > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders either
      > > > decided to go
      > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
      > encounters
      > > > but hiding
      > > > > them.
      > > > >
      > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course,
      there
      > is
      > > > no unitary
      > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
      unstable,
      > > and
      > > > that same
      > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things are
      not
      > > > universally
      > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe
      it's
      > > > true because
      > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have had
      > drug,
      > > > alcohol,
      > > > > or sexual addictions.
      > > > >
      > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research and
      > > > Therapy of
      > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
      studying
      > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In fact,
      > NARTH
      > > > releases
      > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it has
      > > > little or no
      > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
      therapists
      > > > follow
      > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused
      > directly
      > > by
      > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result from
      > any
      > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-sex
      > > parent,
      > > > a
      > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
      > > > >
      > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group that
      > says
      > > > that faith
      > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only happens
      > when
      > > > people walk
      > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith and be
      > > > either
      > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
      > ministries,
      > > > many of
      > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a few
      > of
      > > > which have
      > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
      > laypeople
      > > > who are
      > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open
      > hostility
      > > > toward the
      > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as well
      as
      > > > Christians
      > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
      > > > >
      > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
      > residential
      > > > centers.
      > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people who
      > work
      > > > during the
      > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
      > > > weekends. Some of
      > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for women.
      > It
      > > > seems to be
      > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God wants
      > guys
      > > > to be more
      > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed, and
      > > > cross their
      > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the residential
      > > > centers have
      > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
      > > > >
      > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the
      Family
      > > > prefer
      > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being rational
      and
      > > > thoughtful.
      > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in the
      > > past
      > > > is to
      > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul
      > Cameron
      > > > stands out
      > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from obituaries
      of
      > > > people with
      > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he
      > concluded
      > > > that the
      > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced studies
      > which
      > > > were just
      > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring all
      > the
      > > > way.
      > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his peers
      and
      > > his
      > > > so-called
      > > > > research is not credible.
      > > > >
      > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more likely to
      > be
      > > > pedophiles,
      > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for children,
      > that
      > > > gay
      > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a
      > choice,
      > > > being gay
      > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight people
      > to
      > > > become gay,
      > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as we
      > know
      > > > it, that
      > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous,
      middle-
      > > > aged and
      > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
      > > Christians,
      > > > and that
      > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These
      > things
      > > > are simply
      > > > > not true.
      > > > >
      > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com which
      > tracks
      > > > some of
      > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more
      > details
      > > > there, or
      > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
      > > > >
      > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
      > > > >
      > > > > --Steve
      > > > > --ophoguy@o...
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
      > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
      > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to
      > Singapore
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hi everyone,
      > > > >
      > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
      concerned
      > > > about
      > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to
      > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.
      > > > >
      > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
      > > > >
      > > > > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
      > > > >
      > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through the
      > ex-
      > > > gay
      > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to them
      > > based
      > > > > on personal experience.
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks.
      > > > >
      > > > > Best wishes,
      > > > >
      > > > > Alan
    • nyguy_1225
      Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular truth may be. Some people
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 1, 2003
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        Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out
        there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular
        truth may be. Some people are intent on reading certain passages of
        Scripture in such a way as to only lend legitimacy to their own
        doctrinal prejudices. They'd much rather hold to their own ideology
        then concede to the possibility than the Bible and the God who
        inspired it may be more gracious and inclusive than their doctrinal
        prejudices will allow. For people like this, it really makes no
        difference how much evidence you would present them with.

        There is certainly more than enough evidence and information
        available in various forms these days to enable any objective,
        reasoning and truth-seeking person to see that that there are
        countless Christian people of deep and profound faith who live Godly
        and upright lives, have a high view of Scripture, and who also just
        happen to be gay. It doesn't take a scholar to see that Christian
        hostility towards homosexuality and homosexual relationships rests
        entirely on an interpretation of the Bible that in many respects is
        open to question.

        Increasing numbers of respected Bible scholars and theologians have
        come forward to say that a terrible injustice has been done by the
        Church in their treatment of gay people and their (mis)understanding
        of the few passages that continue to be used to support antigay
        theology. Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, to cite only one of many, many
        examples, who was former ethics professor at Fuller Theological
        Seminary and author of over a dozen best-selling Christian books,
        has written and spoken extensively on the subject. He has said in
        part: "The Church's treatment of homosexuality has become the
        greatest heresy in the history of the church." The list of
        respected Bible scholars and theologians who have spoken and written
        in the same vein goes on and on and on.

        The mere fact that despite all the evidence that's now come to the
        fore to refute the claim that sexual orientation is changeable,
        despite the dismal success rate of the "ex-gay" movement, despite
        scores of testimonies from the many who have been involved with
        these ministries and have come out on the other side to say they're
        not effective, and despite the countless high profile and
        embarrassing scandals the "ex-gay" movement has been enmeshed in,
        these ministries and still continue to claim that homosexual people
        become heterosexual people, stands as testimony to the fact that
        some people are simply not open to truth. To these people I say
        shake the dust off your feet and carry on. For those who are open
        to coming to terms with the reality that not everything they were
        taught may have actually been true, there's tons of good stuff out
        there -- for him (or her) who has ears to hear.

        -Alex


        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
        <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
        > Hi Alex,
        >
        > While many people in the United States do know people like you
        > exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
        > developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting
        active.
        >
        > In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay ministries
        > focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia is
        the
        > rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent. Therefore
        > they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to
        convert
        > homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send to
        them
        > before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the
        convertion
        > therapists could be heros and millionaires there...
        >
        > The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study to
        > propose their position that gays can change. While the Spitzer
        study
        > did not receive promimence in the press in the United States when
        it
        > was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
        > countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another
        developing
        > country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing based
        on
        > what appeared in the press (in that country) recently especially
        > based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
        > unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you because
        he
        > was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is very
        > important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in the
        > minds of the people if they hear of it.
        >
        > In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied
        registration,
        > Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to organize
        > seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently lauched
        > their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have joined
        > their efforts.
        >
        > From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the medical
        > profession in the country are silent about the homophobic views
        (and
        > in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public these
        > homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by the
        > right.
        >
        > Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the
        picture -
        > ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right as
        > legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
        > victimized in the West because of gay politics.
        >
        > Best wishes,
        >
        > Alan
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove that we
        > > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
        > > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone and
        in
        > > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews; some
        > > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
        > community.
        > > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed Christian
        > > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out on
        the
        > > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure out
        > what
        > > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community. We
        live
        > > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different
        kinds
        > of
        > > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions; to
        > > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape -- just
        like
        > > the heterosexual community.
        > >
        > > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
        > scientific
        > > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
        > > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
        > formulate
        > > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is,
        despite
        > > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that
        we're
        > > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people,
        steadily
        > > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
        > >
        > > -Alex
        > >
        > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
        > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
        > > > Hi everyone,
        > > >
        > > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
        > > >
        > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
        > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
        > > directly
        > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
        > > > My question is has anyone done so?
        > > >
        > > > Best wishes,
        > > >
        > > > Alan
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
        > <no_reply@y...>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject
        of
        > > the
        > > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I
        > > > personally
        > > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies
        > from
        > > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this
        > > study
        > > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview
        with
        > > one
        > > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
        > > background
        > > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in
        the
        > > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr.
        Spitzer,
        > he
        > > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after
        learning
        > > that
        > > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
        > > explained
        > > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays
        can
        > > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED
        FROM
        > > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
        > > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE
        CONCLUSION
        > > HE
        > > > > DID.
        > > > >
        > > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted
        this
        > > > study
        > > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and
        distorted
        > > his
        > > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced the
        > > study
        > > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the
        > > research
        > > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200.
        > Some
        > > of
        > > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not
        submitted
        > > for
        > > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility
        of
        > > any
        > > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45
        > > > minutes,
        > > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample
        and a
        > > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
        > > verification
        > > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation.
        It's
        > > clear
        > > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were
        honest.
        > > > >
        > > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
        > > change.
        > > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any
        hard
        > > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable. And
        > > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no
        biblical
        > > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone
        > > survey
        > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
        > > > directly
        > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
        > > > >
        > > > > -Alex
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
        > > > <ophoguy@o...>
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > Hi Alan,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for
        about
        > 30
        > > > > years and say
        > > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
        > > However,
        > > > > when
        > > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
        > > established
        > > > ex-
        > > > > gays to
        > > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his
        study
        > > > > through ex-gay
        > > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200
        > > eligible
        > > > > > participants for his study.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from
        gay
        > > to
        > > > > straight,
        > > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
        > attractions,
        > > > > they use peer
        > > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are
        high.
        > > > Once
        > > > > people
        > > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change,
        a
        > > lot
        > > > of
        > > > > them
        > > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian.
        Quite a
        > > few
        > > > > local
        > > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders
        either
        > > > > decided to go
        > > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
        > > encounters
        > > > > but hiding
        > > > > > them.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course,
        > there
        > > is
        > > > > no unitary
        > > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
        > unstable,
        > > > and
        > > > > that same
        > > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things are
        > not
        > > > > universally
        > > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe
        > it's
        > > > > true because
        > > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have
        had
        > > drug,
        > > > > alcohol,
        > > > > > or sexual addictions.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research
        and
        > > > > Therapy of
        > > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
        > studying
        > > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In
        fact,
        > > NARTH
        > > > > releases
        > > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it
        has
        > > > > little or no
        > > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
        > therapists
        > > > > follow
        > > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused
        > > directly
        > > > by
        > > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result
        from
        > > any
        > > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-sex
        > > > parent,
        > > > > a
        > > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group
        that
        > > says
        > > > > that faith
        > > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only
        happens
        > > when
        > > > > people walk
        > > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith and
        be
        > > > > either
        > > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
        > > ministries,
        > > > > many of
        > > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a
        few
        > > of
        > > > > which have
        > > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
        > > laypeople
        > > > > who are
        > > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open
        > > hostility
        > > > > toward the
        > > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as
        well
        > as
        > > > > Christians
        > > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
        > > residential
        > > > > centers.
        > > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people
        who
        > > work
        > > > > during the
        > > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
        > > > > weekends. Some of
        > > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for
        women.
        > > It
        > > > > seems to be
        > > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God
        wants
        > > guys
        > > > > to be more
        > > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed,
        and
        > > > > cross their
        > > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the
        residential
        > > > > centers have
        > > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the
        > Family
        > > > > prefer
        > > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being rational
        > and
        > > > > thoughtful.
        > > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in
        the
        > > > past
        > > > > is to
        > > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul
        > > Cameron
        > > > > stands out
        > > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from
        obituaries
        > of
        > > > > people with
        > > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he
        > > concluded
        > > > > that the
        > > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced studies
        > > which
        > > > > were just
        > > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring
        all
        > > the
        > > > > way.
        > > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his peers
        > and
        > > > his
        > > > > so-called
        > > > > > research is not credible.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more likely
        to
        > > be
        > > > > pedophiles,
        > > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for
        children,
        > > that
        > > > > gay
        > > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a
        > > choice,
        > > > > being gay
        > > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight
        people
        > > to
        > > > > become gay,
        > > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as
        we
        > > know
        > > > > it, that
        > > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous,
        > middle-
        > > > > aged and
        > > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
        > > > Christians,
        > > > > and that
        > > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These
        > > things
        > > > > are simply
        > > > > > not true.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com which
        > > tracks
        > > > > some of
        > > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more
        > > details
        > > > > there, or
        > > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --Steve
        > > > > > --ophoguy@o...
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
        > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
        > > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to
        > > Singapore
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi everyone,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
        > concerned
        > > > > about
        > > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves
        to
        > > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
        > > > > >
        > > > > > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through
        the
        > > ex-
        > > > > gay
        > > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to
        them
        > > > based
        > > > > > on personal experience.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thanks.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Best wishes,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Alan
      • alankhoo92002
        Hi everyone, Thanks for your comments. Has there been any legal action taken against any ex-gay ministries for fraud or harm caused during therapy? Thanks.
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 2, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi everyone,

          Thanks for your comments. Has there been any legal action taken
          against any ex-gay ministries for fraud or harm caused during therapy?

          Thanks.

          Best wishes,

          Alan

          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
          wrote:
          > Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out
          > there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular
          > truth may be. Some people are intent on reading certain passages
          of
          > Scripture in such a way as to only lend legitimacy to their own
          > doctrinal prejudices. They'd much rather hold to their own
          ideology
          > then concede to the possibility than the Bible and the God who
          > inspired it may be more gracious and inclusive than their doctrinal
          > prejudices will allow. For people like this, it really makes no
          > difference how much evidence you would present them with.
          >
          > There is certainly more than enough evidence and information
          > available in various forms these days to enable any objective,
          > reasoning and truth-seeking person to see that that there are
          > countless Christian people of deep and profound faith who live
          Godly
          > and upright lives, have a high view of Scripture, and who also just
          > happen to be gay. It doesn't take a scholar to see that Christian
          > hostility towards homosexuality and homosexual relationships rests
          > entirely on an interpretation of the Bible that in many respects is
          > open to question.
          >
          > Increasing numbers of respected Bible scholars and theologians have
          > come forward to say that a terrible injustice has been done by the
          > Church in their treatment of gay people and their (mis)
          understanding
          > of the few passages that continue to be used to support antigay
          > theology. Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, to cite only one of many, many
          > examples, who was former ethics professor at Fuller Theological
          > Seminary and author of over a dozen best-selling Christian books,
          > has written and spoken extensively on the subject. He has said in
          > part: "The Church's treatment of homosexuality has become the
          > greatest heresy in the history of the church." The list of
          > respected Bible scholars and theologians who have spoken and
          written
          > in the same vein goes on and on and on.
          >
          > The mere fact that despite all the evidence that's now come to the
          > fore to refute the claim that sexual orientation is changeable,
          > despite the dismal success rate of the "ex-gay" movement, despite
          > scores of testimonies from the many who have been involved with
          > these ministries and have come out on the other side to say they're
          > not effective, and despite the countless high profile and
          > embarrassing scandals the "ex-gay" movement has been enmeshed in,
          > these ministries and still continue to claim that homosexual people
          > become heterosexual people, stands as testimony to the fact that
          > some people are simply not open to truth. To these people I say
          > shake the dust off your feet and carry on. For those who are open
          > to coming to terms with the reality that not everything they were
          > taught may have actually been true, there's tons of good stuff out
          > there -- for him (or her) who has ears to hear.
          >
          > -Alex
          >
          >
          > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
          > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
          > > Hi Alex,
          > >
          > > While many people in the United States do know people like you
          > > exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
          > > developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting
          > active.
          > >
          > > In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay ministries
          > > focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia is
          > the
          > > rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent. Therefore
          > > they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to
          > convert
          > > homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send to
          > them
          > > before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the
          > convertion
          > > therapists could be heros and millionaires there...
          > >
          > > The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study to
          > > propose their position that gays can change. While the Spitzer
          > study
          > > did not receive promimence in the press in the United States when
          > it
          > > was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
          > > countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another
          > developing
          > > country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing based
          > on
          > > what appeared in the press (in that country) recently especially
          > > based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
          > > unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you because
          > he
          > > was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is very
          > > important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in the
          > > minds of the people if they hear of it.
          > >
          > > In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied
          > registration,
          > > Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to organize
          > > seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently lauched
          > > their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have joined
          > > their efforts.
          > >
          > > From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the medical
          > > profession in the country are silent about the homophobic views
          > (and
          > > in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public these
          > > homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by
          the
          > > right.
          > >
          > > Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the
          > picture -
          > > ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right as
          > > legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
          > > victimized in the West because of gay politics.
          > >
          > > Best wishes,
          > >
          > > Alan
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
          <no_reply@y...>
          > > wrote:
          > > > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove that
          we
          > > > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
          > > > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone and
          > in
          > > > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews; some
          > > > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
          > > community.
          > > > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed Christian
          > > > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out on
          > the
          > > > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure out
          > > what
          > > > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community. We
          > live
          > > > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different
          > kinds
          > > of
          > > > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions; to
          > > > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape -- just
          > like
          > > > the heterosexual community.
          > > >
          > > > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
          > > scientific
          > > > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
          > > > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
          > > formulate
          > > > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is,
          > despite
          > > > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that
          > we're
          > > > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people,
          > steadily
          > > > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
          > > >
          > > > -Alex
          > > >
          > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
          > > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
          > > > > Hi everyone,
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
          > > > >
          > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
          > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
          > > > directly
          > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
          > > > > My question is has anyone done so?
          > > > >
          > > > > Best wishes,
          > > > >
          > > > > Alan
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
          > > <no_reply@y...>
          > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject
          > of
          > > > the
          > > > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I
          > > > > personally
          > > > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies
          > > from
          > > > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this
          > > > study
          > > > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview
          > with
          > > > one
          > > > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
          > > > background
          > > > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in
          > the
          > > > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr.
          > Spitzer,
          > > he
          > > > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after
          > learning
          > > > that
          > > > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
          > > > explained
          > > > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays
          > can
          > > > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED
          > FROM
          > > > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
          > > > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE
          > CONCLUSION
          > > > HE
          > > > > > DID.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted
          > this
          > > > > study
          > > > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and
          > distorted
          > > > his
          > > > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced
          the
          > > > study
          > > > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the
          > > > research
          > > > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200.
          > > Some
          > > > of
          > > > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not
          > submitted
          > > > for
          > > > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility
          > of
          > > > any
          > > > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45
          > > > > minutes,
          > > > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample
          > and a
          > > > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
          > > > verification
          > > > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation.
          > It's
          > > > clear
          > > > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were
          > honest.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
          > > > change.
          > > > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any
          > hard
          > > > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable.
          And
          > > > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no
          > biblical
          > > > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone
          > > > survey
          > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
          > > > > directly
          > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
          > > > > >
          > > > > > -Alex
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
          > > > > <ophoguy@o...>
          > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > > Hi Alan,
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for
          > about
          > > 30
          > > > > > years and say
          > > > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
          > > > However,
          > > > > > when
          > > > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
          > > > established
          > > > > ex-
          > > > > > gays to
          > > > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his
          > study
          > > > > > through ex-gay
          > > > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200
          > > > eligible
          > > > > > > participants for his study.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from
          > gay
          > > > to
          > > > > > straight,
          > > > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
          > > attractions,
          > > > > > they use peer
          > > > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are
          > high.
          > > > > Once
          > > > > > people
          > > > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change,
          > a
          > > > lot
          > > > > of
          > > > > > them
          > > > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian.
          > Quite a
          > > > few
          > > > > > local
          > > > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders
          > either
          > > > > > decided to go
          > > > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
          > > > encounters
          > > > > > but hiding
          > > > > > > them.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course,
          > > there
          > > > is
          > > > > > no unitary
          > > > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
          > > unstable,
          > > > > and
          > > > > > that same
          > > > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things
          are
          > > not
          > > > > > universally
          > > > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe
          > > it's
          > > > > > true because
          > > > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have
          > had
          > > > drug,
          > > > > > alcohol,
          > > > > > > or sexual addictions.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research
          > and
          > > > > > Therapy of
          > > > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
          > > studying
          > > > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In
          > fact,
          > > > NARTH
          > > > > > releases
          > > > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it
          > has
          > > > > > little or no
          > > > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
          > > therapists
          > > > > > follow
          > > > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused
          > > > directly
          > > > > by
          > > > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result
          > from
          > > > any
          > > > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-
          sex
          > > > > parent,
          > > > > > a
          > > > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group
          > that
          > > > says
          > > > > > that faith
          > > > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only
          > happens
          > > > when
          > > > > > people walk
          > > > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith
          and
          > be
          > > > > > either
          > > > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
          > > > ministries,
          > > > > > many of
          > > > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a
          > few
          > > > of
          > > > > > which have
          > > > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
          > > > laypeople
          > > > > > who are
          > > > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open
          > > > hostility
          > > > > > toward the
          > > > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as
          > well
          > > as
          > > > > > Christians
          > > > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
          > > > residential
          > > > > > centers.
          > > > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people
          > who
          > > > work
          > > > > > during the
          > > > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
          > > > > > weekends. Some of
          > > > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for
          > women.
          > > > It
          > > > > > seems to be
          > > > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God
          > wants
          > > > guys
          > > > > > to be more
          > > > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed,
          > and
          > > > > > cross their
          > > > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the
          > residential
          > > > > > centers have
          > > > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the
          > > Family
          > > > > > prefer
          > > > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being
          rational
          > > and
          > > > > > thoughtful.
          > > > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in
          > the
          > > > > past
          > > > > > is to
          > > > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul
          > > > Cameron
          > > > > > stands out
          > > > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from
          > obituaries
          > > of
          > > > > > people with
          > > > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he
          > > > concluded
          > > > > > that the
          > > > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced
          studies
          > > > which
          > > > > > were just
          > > > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring
          > all
          > > > the
          > > > > > way.
          > > > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his
          peers
          > > and
          > > > > his
          > > > > > so-called
          > > > > > > research is not credible.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more
          likely
          > to
          > > > be
          > > > > > pedophiles,
          > > > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for
          > children,
          > > > that
          > > > > > gay
          > > > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a
          > > > choice,
          > > > > > being gay
          > > > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight
          > people
          > > > to
          > > > > > become gay,
          > > > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as
          > we
          > > > know
          > > > > > it, that
          > > > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous,
          > > middle-
          > > > > > aged and
          > > > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
          > > > > Christians,
          > > > > > and that
          > > > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These
          > > > things
          > > > > > are simply
          > > > > > > not true.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com
          which
          > > > tracks
          > > > > > some of
          > > > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more
          > > > details
          > > > > > there, or
          > > > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any
          questions.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > --Steve
          > > > > > > --ophoguy@o...
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
          > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
          > > > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to
          > > > Singapore
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Hi everyone,
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
          > > concerned
          > > > > > about
          > > > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves
          > to
          > > > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual
          menace.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through
          > the
          > > > ex-
          > > > > > gay
          > > > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to
          > them
          > > > > based
          > > > > > > on personal experience.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Thanks.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Best wishes,
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Alan
        • nyguy_1225
          Quite a few from what I recall. Don t know what the outcomes were though. ... therapy? ... passages ... doctrinal ... just ... Christian ... rests ... is ...
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 2, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Quite a few from what I recall. Don't know what the outcomes were
            though.

            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
            <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
            > Hi everyone,
            >
            > Thanks for your comments. Has there been any legal action taken
            > against any ex-gay ministries for fraud or harm caused during
            therapy?
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > Best wishes,
            >
            > Alan
            >
            > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
            > wrote:
            > > Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out
            > > there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular
            > > truth may be. Some people are intent on reading certain
            passages
            > of
            > > Scripture in such a way as to only lend legitimacy to their own
            > > doctrinal prejudices. They'd much rather hold to their own
            > ideology
            > > then concede to the possibility than the Bible and the God who
            > > inspired it may be more gracious and inclusive than their
            doctrinal
            > > prejudices will allow. For people like this, it really makes no
            > > difference how much evidence you would present them with.
            > >
            > > There is certainly more than enough evidence and information
            > > available in various forms these days to enable any objective,
            > > reasoning and truth-seeking person to see that that there are
            > > countless Christian people of deep and profound faith who live
            > Godly
            > > and upright lives, have a high view of Scripture, and who also
            just
            > > happen to be gay. It doesn't take a scholar to see that
            Christian
            > > hostility towards homosexuality and homosexual relationships
            rests
            > > entirely on an interpretation of the Bible that in many respects
            is
            > > open to question.
            > >
            > > Increasing numbers of respected Bible scholars and theologians
            have
            > > come forward to say that a terrible injustice has been done by
            the
            > > Church in their treatment of gay people and their (mis)
            > understanding
            > > of the few passages that continue to be used to support antigay
            > > theology. Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, to cite only one of many, many
            > > examples, who was former ethics professor at Fuller Theological
            > > Seminary and author of over a dozen best-selling Christian
            books,
            > > has written and spoken extensively on the subject. He has said
            in
            > > part: "The Church's treatment of homosexuality has become the
            > > greatest heresy in the history of the church." The list of
            > > respected Bible scholars and theologians who have spoken and
            > written
            > > in the same vein goes on and on and on.
            > >
            > > The mere fact that despite all the evidence that's now come to
            the
            > > fore to refute the claim that sexual orientation is changeable,
            > > despite the dismal success rate of the "ex-gay" movement,
            despite
            > > scores of testimonies from the many who have been involved with
            > > these ministries and have come out on the other side to say
            they're
            > > not effective, and despite the countless high profile and
            > > embarrassing scandals the "ex-gay" movement has been enmeshed
            in,
            > > these ministries and still continue to claim that homosexual
            people
            > > become heterosexual people, stands as testimony to the fact that
            > > some people are simply not open to truth. To these people I say
            > > shake the dust off your feet and carry on. For those who are
            open
            > > to coming to terms with the reality that not everything they
            were
            > > taught may have actually been true, there's tons of good stuff
            out
            > > there -- for him (or her) who has ears to hear.
            > >
            > > -Alex
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
            > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
            > > > Hi Alex,
            > > >
            > > > While many people in the United States do know people like you
            > > > exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
            > > > developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting
            > > active.
            > > >
            > > > In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay
            ministries
            > > > focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia
            is
            > > the
            > > > rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent.
            Therefore
            > > > they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to
            > > convert
            > > > homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send
            to
            > > them
            > > > before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the
            > > convertion
            > > > therapists could be heros and millionaires there...
            > > >
            > > > The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study
            to
            > > > propose their position that gays can change. While the
            Spitzer
            > > study
            > > > did not receive promimence in the press in the United States
            when
            > > it
            > > > was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
            > > > countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another
            > > developing
            > > > country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing
            based
            > > on
            > > > what appeared in the press (in that country) recently
            especially
            > > > based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
            > > > unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you
            because
            > > he
            > > > was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is
            very
            > > > important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in
            the
            > > > minds of the people if they hear of it.
            > > >
            > > > In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied
            > > registration,
            > > > Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to
            organize
            > > > seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently
            lauched
            > > > their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have
            joined
            > > > their efforts.
            > > >
            > > > From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the
            medical
            > > > profession in the country are silent about the homophobic
            views
            > > (and
            > > > in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public
            these
            > > > homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by
            > the
            > > > right.
            > > >
            > > > Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the
            > > picture -
            > > > ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right
            as
            > > > legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
            > > > victimized in the West because of gay politics.
            > > >
            > > > Best wishes,
            > > >
            > > > Alan
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
            > <no_reply@y...>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove
            that
            > we
            > > > > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
            > > > > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone
            and
            > > in
            > > > > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews;
            some
            > > > > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
            > > > community.
            > > > > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed
            Christian
            > > > > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out
            on
            > > the
            > > > > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure
            out
            > > > what
            > > > > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community.
            We
            > > live
            > > > > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different
            > > kinds
            > > > of
            > > > > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions;
            to
            > > > > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape --
            just
            > > like
            > > > > the heterosexual community.
            > > > >
            > > > > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
            > > > scientific
            > > > > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
            > > > > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
            > > > formulate
            > > > > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is,
            > > despite
            > > > > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that
            > > we're
            > > > > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people,
            > > steadily
            > > > > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
            > > > >
            > > > > -Alex
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
            > > > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > Hi everyone,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
            > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results
            that
            > > > > directly
            > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
            > > > > > My question is has anyone done so?
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Best wishes,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Alan
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
            > > > <no_reply@y...>
            > > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the
            subject
            > > of
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that
            I
            > > > > > personally
            > > > > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting
            testimonies
            > > > from
            > > > > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when
            this
            > > > > study
            > > > > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone
            interview
            > > with
            > > > > one
            > > > > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
            > > > > background
            > > > > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation
            in
            > > the
            > > > > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr.
            > > Spitzer,
            > > > he
            > > > > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after
            > > learning
            > > > > that
            > > > > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
            > > > > explained
            > > > > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that
            gays
            > > can
            > > > > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE
            DISQUALIFIED
            > > FROM
            > > > > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A
            ROCKET
            > > > > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE
            > > CONCLUSION
            > > > > HE
            > > > > > > DID.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers
            blasted
            > > this
            > > > > > study
            > > > > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and
            > > distorted
            > > > > his
            > > > > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced
            > the
            > > > > study
            > > > > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things,
            the
            > > > > research
            > > > > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of
            200.
            > > > Some
            > > > > of
            > > > > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not
            > > submitted
            > > > > for
            > > > > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the
            credibility
            > > of
            > > > > any
            > > > > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for
            45
            > > > > > minutes,
            > > > > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient
            sample
            > > and a
            > > > > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
            > > > > verification
            > > > > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation.
            > > It's
            > > > > clear
            > > > > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were
            > > honest.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
            > > > > change.
            > > > > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been,
            any
            > > hard
            > > > > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable.
            > And
            > > > > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no
            > > biblical
            > > > > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a
            phone
            > > > > survey
            > > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results
            that
            > > > > > directly
            > > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > -Alex
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
            > > > > > <ophoguy@o...>
            > > > > > > wrote:
            > > > > > > > Hi Alan,
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for
            > > about
            > > > 30
            > > > > > > years and say
            > > > > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
            > > > > However,
            > > > > > > when
            > > > > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
            > > > > established
            > > > > > ex-
            > > > > > > gays to
            > > > > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his
            > > study
            > > > > > > through ex-gay
            > > > > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got
            200
            > > > > eligible
            > > > > > > > participants for his study.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change
            from
            > > gay
            > > > > to
            > > > > > > straight,
            > > > > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
            > > > attractions,
            > > > > > > they use peer
            > > > > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are
            > > high.
            > > > > > Once
            > > > > > > people
            > > > > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to
            change,
            > > a
            > > > > lot
            > > > > > of
            > > > > > > them
            > > > > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian.
            > > Quite a
            > > > > few
            > > > > > > local
            > > > > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders
            > > either
            > > > > > > decided to go
            > > > > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
            > > > > encounters
            > > > > > > but hiding
            > > > > > > > them.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of
            course,
            > > > there
            > > > > is
            > > > > > > no unitary
            > > > > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
            > > > unstable,
            > > > > > and
            > > > > > > that same
            > > > > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things
            > are
            > > > not
            > > > > > > universally
            > > > > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups
            believe
            > > > it's
            > > > > > > true because
            > > > > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who
            have
            > > had
            > > > > drug,
            > > > > > > alcohol,
            > > > > > > > or sexual addictions.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for
            Research
            > > and
            > > > > > > Therapy of
            > > > > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
            > > > studying
            > > > > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In
            > > fact,
            > > > > NARTH
            > > > > > > releases
            > > > > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and
            it
            > > has
            > > > > > > little or no
            > > > > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
            > > > therapists
            > > > > > > follow
            > > > > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are
            caused
            > > > > directly
            > > > > > by
            > > > > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can
            result
            > > from
            > > > > any
            > > > > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-
            > sex
            > > > > > parent,
            > > > > > > a
            > > > > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group
            > > that
            > > > > says
            > > > > > > that faith
            > > > > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only
            > > happens
            > > > > when
            > > > > > > people walk
            > > > > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith
            > and
            > > be
            > > > > > > either
            > > > > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
            > > > > ministries,
            > > > > > > many of
            > > > > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support
            groups, a
            > > few
            > > > > of
            > > > > > > which have
            > > > > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
            > > > > laypeople
            > > > > > > who are
            > > > > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists;
            open
            > > > > hostility
            > > > > > > toward the
            > > > > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as
            > > well
            > > > as
            > > > > > > Christians
            > > > > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
            > > > > residential
            > > > > > > centers.
            > > > > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20
            people
            > > who
            > > > > work
            > > > > > > during the
            > > > > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings
            and
            > > > > > > weekends. Some of
            > > > > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for
            > > women.
            > > > > It
            > > > > > > seems to be
            > > > > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God
            > > wants
            > > > > guys
            > > > > > > to be more
            > > > > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-
            obsessed,
            > > and
            > > > > > > cross their
            > > > > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the
            > > residential
            > > > > > > centers have
            > > > > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on
            the
            > > > Family
            > > > > > > prefer
            > > > > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being
            > rational
            > > > and
            > > > > > > thoughtful.
            > > > > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as
            in
            > > the
            > > > > > past
            > > > > > > is to
            > > > > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr.
            Paul
            > > > > Cameron
            > > > > > > stands out
            > > > > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from
            > > obituaries
            > > > of
            > > > > > > people with
            > > > > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available,
            he
            > > > > concluded
            > > > > > > that the
            > > > > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced
            > studies
            > > > > which
            > > > > > > were just
            > > > > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and
            distoring
            > > all
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > way.
            > > > > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his
            > peers
            > > > and
            > > > > > his
            > > > > > > so-called
            > > > > > > > research is not credible.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more
            > likely
            > > to
            > > > > be
            > > > > > > pedophiles,
            > > > > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for
            > > children,
            > > > > that
            > > > > > > gay
            > > > > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is
            a
            > > > > choice,
            > > > > > > being gay
            > > > > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight
            > > people
            > > > > to
            > > > > > > become gay,
            > > > > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization
            as
            > > we
            > > > > know
            > > > > > > it, that
            > > > > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are
            monogamous,
            > > > middle-
            > > > > > > aged and
            > > > > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
            > > > > > Christians,
            > > > > > > and that
            > > > > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder.
            These
            > > > > things
            > > > > > > are simply
            > > > > > > > not true.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com
            > which
            > > > > tracks
            > > > > > > some of
            > > > > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find
            more
            > > > > details
            > > > > > > there, or
            > > > > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any
            > questions.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > --Steve
            > > > > > > > --ophoguy@o...
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
            > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
            > > > > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting
            to
            > > > > Singapore
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Hi everyone,
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
            > > > concerned
            > > > > > > about
            > > > > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting
            themselves
            > > to
            > > > > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual
            > menace.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone
            through
            > > the
            > > > > ex-
            > > > > > > gay
            > > > > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations
            to
            > > them
            > > > > > based
            > > > > > > > on personal experience.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Thanks.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Best wishes,
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > Alan
          • Norm
            I haven t not heard of any legal action, but the ex-gay group PFOX is also seeking legal action against pro-gay groups. So, everyone get a lawyer! As for the
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 2, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              I haven't not heard of any legal action, but the ex-gay group PFOX
              is also seeking legal action against pro-gay groups. So, everyone
              get a lawyer!

              As for the Singapore ex-gay conference, Ex-Gay Watch posted a letter
              published by a the gay-positive psychological group, AFFIRM,
              challenging the credentials of the presentor of the ex-gay seminar,
              Melvin W. Wong.
              http://www.exgaywatch.com/xgw/2003/11/potential_fraud.html

              Norm!


              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
              <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
              > Hi everyone,
              >
              > Thanks for your comments. Has there been any legal action taken
              > against any ex-gay ministries for fraud or harm caused during
              therapy?
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              >
              > Alan
              >
              > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
              > wrote:
              > > Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out
              > > there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular
              > > truth may be. Some people are intent on reading certain
              passages
              > of
              > > Scripture in such a way as to only lend legitimacy to their own
              > > doctrinal prejudices. They'd much rather hold to their own
              > ideology
              > > then concede to the possibility than the Bible and the God who
              > > inspired it may be more gracious and inclusive than their
              doctrinal
              > > prejudices will allow. For people like this, it really makes no
              > > difference how much evidence you would present them with.
              > >
              > > There is certainly more than enough evidence and information
              > > available in various forms these days to enable any objective,
              > > reasoning and truth-seeking person to see that that there are
              > > countless Christian people of deep and profound faith who live
              > Godly
              > > and upright lives, have a high view of Scripture, and who also
              just
              > > happen to be gay. It doesn't take a scholar to see that
              Christian
              > > hostility towards homosexuality and homosexual relationships
              rests
              > > entirely on an interpretation of the Bible that in many respects
              is
              > > open to question.
              > >
              > > Increasing numbers of respected Bible scholars and theologians
              have
              > > come forward to say that a terrible injustice has been done by
              the
              > > Church in their treatment of gay people and their (mis)
              > understanding
              > > of the few passages that continue to be used to support antigay
              > > theology. Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, to cite only one of many, many
              > > examples, who was former ethics professor at Fuller Theological
              > > Seminary and author of over a dozen best-selling Christian
              books,
              > > has written and spoken extensively on the subject. He has said
              in
              > > part: "The Church's treatment of homosexuality has become the
              > > greatest heresy in the history of the church." The list of
              > > respected Bible scholars and theologians who have spoken and
              > written
              > > in the same vein goes on and on and on.
              > >
              > > The mere fact that despite all the evidence that's now come to
              the
              > > fore to refute the claim that sexual orientation is changeable,
              > > despite the dismal success rate of the "ex-gay" movement,
              despite
              > > scores of testimonies from the many who have been involved with
              > > these ministries and have come out on the other side to say
              they're
              > > not effective, and despite the countless high profile and
              > > embarrassing scandals the "ex-gay" movement has been enmeshed
              in,
              > > these ministries and still continue to claim that homosexual
              people
              > > become heterosexual people, stands as testimony to the fact that
              > > some people are simply not open to truth. To these people I say
              > > shake the dust off your feet and carry on. For those who are
              open
              > > to coming to terms with the reality that not everything they
              were
              > > taught may have actually been true, there's tons of good stuff
              out
              > > there -- for him (or her) who has ears to hear.
              > >
              > > -Alex
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
              > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
              > > > Hi Alex,
              > > >
              > > > While many people in the United States do know people like you
              > > > exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
              > > > developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting
              > > active.
              > > >
              > > > In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay
              ministries
              > > > focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia
              is
              > > the
              > > > rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent.
              Therefore
              > > > they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to
              > > convert
              > > > homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send
              to
              > > them
              > > > before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the
              > > convertion
              > > > therapists could be heros and millionaires there...
              > > >
              > > > The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study
              to
              > > > propose their position that gays can change. While the
              Spitzer
              > > study
              > > > did not receive promimence in the press in the United States
              when
              > > it
              > > > was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
              > > > countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another
              > > developing
              > > > country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing
              based
              > > on
              > > > what appeared in the press (in that country) recently
              especially
              > > > based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
              > > > unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you
              because
              > > he
              > > > was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is
              very
              > > > important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in
              the
              > > > minds of the people if they hear of it.
              > > >
              > > > In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied
              > > registration,
              > > > Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to
              organize
              > > > seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently
              lauched
              > > > their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have
              joined
              > > > their efforts.
              > > >
              > > > From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the
              medical
              > > > profession in the country are silent about the homophobic
              views
              > > (and
              > > > in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public
              these
              > > > homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by
              > the
              > > > right.
              > > >
              > > > Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the
              > > picture -
              > > > ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right
              as
              > > > legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
              > > > victimized in the West because of gay politics.
              > > >
              > > > Best wishes,
              > > >
              > > > Alan
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
              > <no_reply@y...>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove
              that
              > we
              > > > > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
              > > > > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone
              and
              > > in
              > > > > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews;
              some
              > > > > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
              > > > community.
              > > > > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed
              Christian
              > > > > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out
              on
              > > the
              > > > > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure
              out
              > > > what
              > > > > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community.
              We
              > > live
              > > > > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different
              > > kinds
              > > > of
              > > > > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions;
              to
              > > > > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape --
              just
              > > like
              > > > > the heterosexual community.
              > > > >
              > > > > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
              > > > scientific
              > > > > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
              > > > > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
              > > > formulate
              > > > > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is,
              > > despite
              > > > > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that
              > > we're
              > > > > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people,
              > > steadily
              > > > > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
              > > > >
              > > > > -Alex
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
              > > > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
              > > > > > Hi everyone,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > > > > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
              > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results
              that
              > > > > directly
              > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
              > > > > > My question is has anyone done so?
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Best wishes,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Alan
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
              > > > <no_reply@y...>
              > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the
              subject
              > > of
              > > > > the
              > > > > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that
              I
              > > > > > personally
              > > > > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting
              testimonies
              > > > from
              > > > > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when
              this
              > > > > study
              > > > > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone
              interview
              > > with
              > > > > one
              > > > > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
              > > > > background
              > > > > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation
              in
              > > the
              > > > > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr.
              > > Spitzer,
              > > > he
              > > > > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after
              > > learning
              > > > > that
              > > > > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
              > > > > explained
              > > > > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that
              gays
              > > can
              > > > > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE
              DISQUALIFIED
              > > FROM
              > > > > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A
              ROCKET
              > > > > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE
              > > CONCLUSION
              > > > > HE
              > > > > > > DID.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers
              blasted
              > > this
              > > > > > study
              > > > > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and
              > > distorted
              > > > > his
              > > > > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced
              > the
              > > > > study
              > > > > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things,
              the
              > > > > research
              > > > > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of
              200.
              > > > Some
              > > > > of
              > > > > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not
              > > submitted
              > > > > for
              > > > > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the
              credibility
              > > of
              > > > > any
              > > > > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for
              45
              > > > > > minutes,
              > > > > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient
              sample
              > > and a
              > > > > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
              > > > > verification
              > > > > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation.
              > > It's
              > > > > clear
              > > > > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were
              > > honest.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
              > > > > change.
              > > > > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been,
              any
              > > hard
              > > > > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable.
              > And
              > > > > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no
              > > biblical
              > > > > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a
              phone
              > > > > survey
              > > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results
              that
              > > > > > directly
              > > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > -Alex
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
              > > > > > <ophoguy@o...>
              > > > > > > wrote:
              > > > > > > > Hi Alan,
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for
              > > about
              > > > 30
              > > > > > > years and say
              > > > > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
              > > > > However,
              > > > > > > when
              > > > > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
              > > > > established
              > > > > > ex-
              > > > > > > gays to
              > > > > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his
              > > study
              > > > > > > through ex-gay
              > > > > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got
              200
              > > > > eligible
              > > > > > > > participants for his study.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change
              from
              > > gay
              > > > > to
              > > > > > > straight,
              > > > > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
              > > > attractions,
              > > > > > > they use peer
              > > > > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are
              > > high.
              > > > > > Once
              > > > > > > people
              > > > > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to
              change,
              > > a
              > > > > lot
              > > > > > of
              > > > > > > them
              > > > > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian.
              > > Quite a
              > > > > few
              > > > > > > local
              > > > > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders
              > > either
              > > > > > > decided to go
              > > > > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
              > > > > encounters
              > > > > > > but hiding
              > > > > > > > them.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of
              course,
              > > > there
              > > > > is
              > > > > > > no unitary
              > > > > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
              > > > unstable,
              > > > > > and
              > > > > > > that same
              > > > > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things
              > are
              > > > not
              > > > > > > universally
              > > > > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups
              believe
              > > > it's
              > > > > > > true because
              > > > > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who
              have
              > > had
              > > > > drug,
              > > > > > > alcohol,
              > > > > > > > or sexual addictions.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for
              Research
              > > and
              > > > > > > Therapy of
              > > > > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
              > > > studying
              > > > > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In
              > > fact,
              > > > > NARTH
              > > > > > > releases
              > > > > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and
              it
              > > has
              > > > > > > little or no
              > > > > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
              > > > therapists
              > > > > > > follow
              > > > > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are
              caused
              > > > > directly
              > > > > > by
              > > > > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can
              result
              > > from
              > > > > any
              > > > > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-
              > sex
              > > > > > parent,
              > > > > > > a
              > > > > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group
              > > that
              > > > > says
              > > > > > > that faith
              > > > > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only
              > > happens
              > > > > when
              > > > > > > people walk
              > > > > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith
              > and
              > > be
              > > > > > > either
              > > > > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
              > > > > ministries,
              > > > > > > many of
              > > > > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support
              groups, a
              > > few
              > > > > of
              > > > > > > which have
              > > > > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
              > > > > laypeople
              > > > > > > who are
              > > > > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists;
              open
              > > > > hostility
              > > > > > > toward the
              > > > > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as
              > > well
              > > > as
              > > > > > > Christians
              > > > > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
              > > > > residential
              > > > > > > centers.
              > > > > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20
              people
              > > who
              > > > > work
              > > > > > > during the
              > > > > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings
              and
              > > > > > > weekends. Some of
              > > > > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for
              > > women.
              > > > > It
              > > > > > > seems to be
              > > > > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God
              > > wants
              > > > > guys
              > > > > > > to be more
              > > > > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-
              obsessed,
              > > and
              > > > > > > cross their
              > > > > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the
              > > residential
              > > > > > > centers have
              > > > > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on
              the
              > > > Family
              > > > > > > prefer
              > > > > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being
              > rational
              > > > and
              > > > > > > thoughtful.
              > > > > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as
              in
              > > the
              > > > > > past
              > > > > > > is to
              > > > > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr.
              Paul
              > > > > Cameron
              > > > > > > stands out
              > > > > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from
              > > obituaries
              > > > of
              > > > > > > people with
              > > > > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available,
              he
              > > > > concluded
              > > > > > > that the
              > > > > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced
              > studies
              > > > > which
              > > > > > > were just
              > > > > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and
              distoring
              > > all
              > > > > the
              > > > > > > way.
              > > > > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his
              > peers
              > > > and
              > > > > > his
              > > > > > > so-called
              > > > > > > > research is not credible.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more
              > likely
              > > to
              > > > > be
              > > > > > > pedophiles,
              > > > > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for
              > > children,
              > > > > that
              > > > > > > gay
              > > > > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is
              a
              > > > > choice,
              > > > > > > being gay
              > > > > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight
              > > people
              > > > > to
              > > > > > > become gay,
              > > > > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization
              as
              > > we
              > > > > know
              > > > > > > it, that
              > > > > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are
              monogamous,
              > > > middle-
              > > > > > > aged and
              > > > > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
              > > > > > Christians,
              > > > > > > and that
              > > > > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder.
              These
              > > > > things
              > > > > > > are simply
              > > > > > > > not true.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com
              > which
              > > > > tracks
              > > > > > > some of
              > > > > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find
              more
              > > > > details
              > > > > > > there, or
              > > > > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any
              > questions.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > --Steve
              > > > > > > > --ophoguy@o...
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
              > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
              > > > > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting
              to
              > > > > Singapore
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Hi everyone,
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
              > > > concerned
              > > > > > > about
              > > > > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting
              themselves
              > > to
              > > > > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual
              > menace.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > >
              > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone
              through
              > > the
              > > > > ex-
              > > > > > > gay
              > > > > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations
              to
              > > them
              > > > > > based
              > > > > > > > on personal experience.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Thanks.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Best wishes,
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Alan
            • calldon2k
              ... about ... I am really glad that the above group can now proclaim that THEY KNOW The Roots & Causes of Homosexuality. People have been searching for The
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 19, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                > Hi everyone,
                >
                > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am concerned
                about
                > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to
                > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.
                >
                > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
                >
                > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm


                I am really glad that the above group can now proclaim that THEY
                KNOW "The Roots & Causes of Homosexuality." People have been
                searching for "The Roots & Causes of Homosexuality" for many years
                and can't seem to find them. Now...these folks have the answers, I'm
                sure, all wrapped up in a box of platitudes and cliches, ready for
                anyone to embrace to support their personal prejudices!

                How nice!

                =====
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