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Ex-gay ministry exporting to Singapore

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  • alankhoo92002
    Hi everyone, I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am concerned about its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to Singapore to
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 29, 2003
      Hi everyone,

      I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am concerned about
      its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to
      Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.

      http://www.family.org.sg/events.html

      http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm

      Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through the ex-gay
      ministry and could help to point out the limitations to them based
      on personal experience.

      Thanks.

      Best wishes,

      Alan
    • Steve Boese
      Hi Alan, Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for about 30 years and say that thousands of folks have changed because of them. However, when
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 29, 2003
        Hi Alan,

        Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for about 30 years and say
        that thousands of folks have changed because of them. However, when
        researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-established ex-gays to
        study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his study through ex-gay
        ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200 eligible
        participants for his study.

        Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from gay to straight,
        but the vast majority of folks don't change their attractions, they use peer
        support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are high. Once people
        figure out that their attractions aren't going to change, a lot of them
        re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian. Quite a few local
        ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders either decided to go
        back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex encounters but hiding
        them.

        Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course, there is no unitary
        lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden, unstable, and that same
        sex relationships never last. Of course, those things are not universally
        true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe it's true because
        they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have had drug, alcohol,
        or sexual addictions.

        Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research and Therapy of
        Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in studying
        homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In fact, NARTH releases
        few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it has little or no
        credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH therapists follow
        Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused directly by
        childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result from any
        combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-sex parent, a
        domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.

        Exodus International is a conservative Christian group that says that faith
        is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only happens when people walk
        away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith and be either
        celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local ministries, many of
        which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a few of which have
        paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by laypeople who are
        ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open hostility toward the
        professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as well as Christians
        who affirm gays, is not unusual.

        One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is residential centers.
        These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people who work during the
        day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and weekends. Some of
        them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for women. It seems to be
        pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God wants guys to be more
        tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed, and cross their
        legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the residential centers have
        plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.

        Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the Family prefer
        distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being rational and thoughtful.
        One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in the past is to
        cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul Cameron stands out
        in that genre. After tabulating statistics from obituaries of people with
        AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he concluded that the
        average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced studies which were just
        amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring all the way.
        Cameron has lost his professional standing among his peers and his so-called
        research is not credible.

        Other common distortions include that gays are more likely to be pedophiles,
        that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for children, that gay
        relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a choice, being gay
        is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight people to become gay,
        that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as we know it, that
        gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous, middle-aged and
        elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate Christians, and that
        being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These things are simply
        not true.

        I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com which tracks some of
        the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more details there, or
        feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.

        Best of luck, Alan...

        --Steve
        --ophoguy@...



        -----Original Message-----
        From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@...]
        Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
        To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to Singapore


        Hi everyone,

        I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am concerned about
        its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to
        Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.

        http://www.family.org.sg/events.html

        http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm

        Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through the ex-gay
        ministry and could help to point out the limitations to them based
        on personal experience.

        Thanks.

        Best wishes,

        Alan
      • nyguy_1225
        Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we re on the subject of the Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I personally responded to an ad Dr.
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 30, 2003
          Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject of the
          Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I personally
          responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies from
          people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this study
          was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview with one
          of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my background
          was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in the
          study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr. Spitzer, he
          disqualified me from participating in his study after learning that
          I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer explained
          he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays can
          change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED FROM
          PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
          SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE CONCLUSION HE
          DID.

          As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted this study
          charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and distorted his
          findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced the study
          at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the research
          was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200. Some of
          the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not submitted for
          peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility of any
          study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45 minutes,
          hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample and a
          question of a 45-minute phone interview without other verification
          cannot determine that a person has changed orientation. It's clear
          he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were honest.

          This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can change.
          The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any hard
          scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable. And
          contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no biblical
          evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
          with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that directly
          counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!

          -Alex


          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese" <ophoguy@o...>
          wrote:
          > Hi Alan,
          >
          > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for about 30
          years and say
          > that thousands of folks have changed because of them. However,
          when
          > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-established ex-
          gays to
          > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his study
          through ex-gay
          > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200 eligible
          > participants for his study.
          >
          > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from gay to
          straight,
          > but the vast majority of folks don't change their attractions,
          they use peer
          > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are high. Once
          people
          > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change, a lot of
          them
          > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian. Quite a few
          local
          > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders either
          decided to go
          > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex encounters
          but hiding
          > them.
          >
          > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course, there is
          no unitary
          > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden, unstable, and
          that same
          > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things are not
          universally
          > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe it's
          true because
          > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have had drug,
          alcohol,
          > or sexual addictions.
          >
          > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research and
          Therapy of
          > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in studying
          > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In fact, NARTH
          releases
          > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it has
          little or no
          > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH therapists
          follow
          > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused directly by
          > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result from any
          > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-sex parent,
          a
          > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
          >
          > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group that says
          that faith
          > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only happens when
          people walk
          > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith and be
          either
          > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local ministries,
          many of
          > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a few of
          which have
          > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by laypeople
          who are
          > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open hostility
          toward the
          > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as well as
          Christians
          > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
          >
          > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is residential
          centers.
          > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people who work
          during the
          > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
          weekends. Some of
          > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for women. It
          seems to be
          > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God wants guys
          to be more
          > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed, and
          cross their
          > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the residential
          centers have
          > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
          >
          > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the Family
          prefer
          > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being rational and
          thoughtful.
          > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in the past
          is to
          > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul Cameron
          stands out
          > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from obituaries of
          people with
          > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he concluded
          that the
          > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced studies which
          were just
          > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring all the
          way.
          > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his peers and his
          so-called
          > research is not credible.
          >
          > Other common distortions include that gays are more likely to be
          pedophiles,
          > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for children, that
          gay
          > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a choice,
          being gay
          > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight people to
          become gay,
          > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as we know
          it, that
          > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous, middle-
          aged and
          > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate Christians,
          and that
          > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These things
          are simply
          > not true.
          >
          > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com which tracks
          some of
          > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more details
          there, or
          > feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
          >
          > Best of luck, Alan...
          >
          > --Steve
          > --ophoguy@o...
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
          > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
          > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to Singapore
          >
          >
          > Hi everyone,
          >
          > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am concerned
          about
          > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to
          > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.
          >
          > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
          >
          > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
          >
          > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through the ex-
          gay
          > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to them based
          > on personal experience.
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          > Best wishes,
          >
          > Alan
        • alankhoo92002
          Hi everyone, Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex. wrote: Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 30, 2003
            Hi everyone,

            Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.

            <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
            with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that directly
            counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
            My question is has anyone done so?

            Best wishes,

            Alan




            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
            wrote:
            > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject of the
            > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I
            personally
            > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies from
            > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this study
            > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview with one
            > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my background
            > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in the
            > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr. Spitzer, he
            > disqualified me from participating in his study after learning that
            > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer explained
            > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays can
            > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED FROM
            > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
            > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE CONCLUSION HE
            > DID.
            >
            > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted this
            study
            > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and distorted his
            > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced the study
            > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the research
            > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200. Some of
            > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not submitted for
            > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility of any
            > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45
            minutes,
            > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample and a
            > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other verification
            > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation. It's clear
            > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were honest.
            >
            > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can change.
            > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any hard
            > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable. And
            > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no biblical
            > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
            > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
            directly
            > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
            >
            > -Alex
            >
            >
            > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
            <ophoguy@o...>
            > wrote:
            > > Hi Alan,
            > >
            > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for about 30
            > years and say
            > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them. However,
            > when
            > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-established
            ex-
            > gays to
            > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his study
            > through ex-gay
            > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200 eligible
            > > participants for his study.
            > >
            > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from gay to
            > straight,
            > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their attractions,
            > they use peer
            > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are high.
            Once
            > people
            > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change, a lot
            of
            > them
            > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian. Quite a few
            > local
            > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders either
            > decided to go
            > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex encounters
            > but hiding
            > > them.
            > >
            > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course, there is
            > no unitary
            > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden, unstable,
            and
            > that same
            > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things are not
            > universally
            > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe it's
            > true because
            > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have had drug,
            > alcohol,
            > > or sexual addictions.
            > >
            > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research and
            > Therapy of
            > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in studying
            > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In fact, NARTH
            > releases
            > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it has
            > little or no
            > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH therapists
            > follow
            > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused directly
            by
            > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result from any
            > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-sex
            parent,
            > a
            > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
            > >
            > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group that says
            > that faith
            > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only happens when
            > people walk
            > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith and be
            > either
            > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local ministries,
            > many of
            > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a few of
            > which have
            > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by laypeople
            > who are
            > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open hostility
            > toward the
            > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as well as
            > Christians
            > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
            > >
            > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is residential
            > centers.
            > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people who work
            > during the
            > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
            > weekends. Some of
            > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for women. It
            > seems to be
            > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God wants guys
            > to be more
            > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed, and
            > cross their
            > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the residential
            > centers have
            > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
            > >
            > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the Family
            > prefer
            > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being rational and
            > thoughtful.
            > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in the
            past
            > is to
            > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul Cameron
            > stands out
            > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from obituaries of
            > people with
            > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he concluded
            > that the
            > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced studies which
            > were just
            > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring all the
            > way.
            > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his peers and
            his
            > so-called
            > > research is not credible.
            > >
            > > Other common distortions include that gays are more likely to be
            > pedophiles,
            > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for children, that
            > gay
            > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a choice,
            > being gay
            > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight people to
            > become gay,
            > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as we know
            > it, that
            > > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous, middle-
            > aged and
            > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
            Christians,
            > and that
            > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These things
            > are simply
            > > not true.
            > >
            > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com which tracks
            > some of
            > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more details
            > there, or
            > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
            > >
            > > Best of luck, Alan...
            > >
            > > --Steve
            > > --ophoguy@o...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
            > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
            > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to Singapore
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi everyone,
            > >
            > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am concerned
            > about
            > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to
            > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.
            > >
            > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
            > >
            > > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
            > >
            > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through the ex-
            > gay
            > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to them
            based
            > > on personal experience.
            > >
            > > Thanks.
            > >
            > > Best wishes,
            > >
            > > Alan
          • nyguy_1225
            Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove that we exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the heterosexual community is and there
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 30, 2003
              Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove that we
              exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
              heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone and in
              every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews; some
              Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual community.
              Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed Christian
              faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out on the
              fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure out what
              to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community. We live
              as many different kinds of lives and have as many different kinds of
              relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions; to
              short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape -- just like
              the heterosexual community.

              Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical, scientific
              or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
              changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to formulate
              such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is, despite
              all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that we're
              out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people, steadily
              increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.

              -Alex

              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
              <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
              > Hi everyone,
              >
              > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
              >
              > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
              > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
              directly
              > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
              > My question is has anyone done so?
              >
              > Best wishes,
              >
              > Alan
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
              > wrote:
              > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject of
              the
              > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I
              > personally
              > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies from
              > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this
              study
              > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview with
              one
              > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
              background
              > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in the
              > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr. Spitzer, he
              > > disqualified me from participating in his study after learning
              that
              > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
              explained
              > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays can
              > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED FROM
              > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
              > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE CONCLUSION
              HE
              > > DID.
              > >
              > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted this
              > study
              > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and distorted
              his
              > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced the
              study
              > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the
              research
              > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200. Some
              of
              > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not submitted
              for
              > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility of
              any
              > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45
              > minutes,
              > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample and a
              > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
              verification
              > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation. It's
              clear
              > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were honest.
              > >
              > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
              change.
              > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any hard
              > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable. And
              > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no biblical
              > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone
              survey
              > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
              > directly
              > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
              > >
              > > -Alex
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
              > <ophoguy@o...>
              > > wrote:
              > > > Hi Alan,
              > > >
              > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for about 30
              > > years and say
              > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
              However,
              > > when
              > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
              established
              > ex-
              > > gays to
              > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his study
              > > through ex-gay
              > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200
              eligible
              > > > participants for his study.
              > > >
              > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from gay
              to
              > > straight,
              > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their attractions,
              > > they use peer
              > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are high.
              > Once
              > > people
              > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change, a
              lot
              > of
              > > them
              > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian. Quite a
              few
              > > local
              > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders either
              > > decided to go
              > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
              encounters
              > > but hiding
              > > > them.
              > > >
              > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course, there
              is
              > > no unitary
              > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden, unstable,
              > and
              > > that same
              > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things are not
              > > universally
              > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe it's
              > > true because
              > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have had
              drug,
              > > alcohol,
              > > > or sexual addictions.
              > > >
              > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research and
              > > Therapy of
              > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in studying
              > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In fact,
              NARTH
              > > releases
              > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it has
              > > little or no
              > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH therapists
              > > follow
              > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused
              directly
              > by
              > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result from
              any
              > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-sex
              > parent,
              > > a
              > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
              > > >
              > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group that
              says
              > > that faith
              > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only happens
              when
              > > people walk
              > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith and be
              > > either
              > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
              ministries,
              > > many of
              > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a few
              of
              > > which have
              > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
              laypeople
              > > who are
              > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open
              hostility
              > > toward the
              > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as well as
              > > Christians
              > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
              > > >
              > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
              residential
              > > centers.
              > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people who
              work
              > > during the
              > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
              > > weekends. Some of
              > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for women.
              It
              > > seems to be
              > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God wants
              guys
              > > to be more
              > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed, and
              > > cross their
              > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the residential
              > > centers have
              > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
              > > >
              > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the Family
              > > prefer
              > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being rational and
              > > thoughtful.
              > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in the
              > past
              > > is to
              > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul
              Cameron
              > > stands out
              > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from obituaries of
              > > people with
              > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he
              concluded
              > > that the
              > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced studies
              which
              > > were just
              > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring all
              the
              > > way.
              > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his peers and
              > his
              > > so-called
              > > > research is not credible.
              > > >
              > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more likely to
              be
              > > pedophiles,
              > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for children,
              that
              > > gay
              > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a
              choice,
              > > being gay
              > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight people
              to
              > > become gay,
              > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as we
              know
              > > it, that
              > > > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous, middle-
              > > aged and
              > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
              > Christians,
              > > and that
              > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These
              things
              > > are simply
              > > > not true.
              > > >
              > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com which
              tracks
              > > some of
              > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more
              details
              > > there, or
              > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
              > > >
              > > > Best of luck, Alan...
              > > >
              > > > --Steve
              > > > --ophoguy@o...
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
              > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
              > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to
              Singapore
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi everyone,
              > > >
              > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am concerned
              > > about
              > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to
              > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.
              > > >
              > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
              > > >
              > > > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
              > > >
              > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through the
              ex-
              > > gay
              > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to them
              > based
              > > > on personal experience.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks.
              > > >
              > > > Best wishes,
              > > >
              > > > Alan
            • alankhoo92002
              Hi Alex, While many people in the United States do know people like you exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in developing countries where
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 1, 2003
                Hi Alex,

                While many people in the United States do know people like you
                exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
                developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting active.

                In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay ministries
                focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia is the
                rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent. Therefore
                they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to convert
                homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send to them
                before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the convertion
                therapists could be heros and millionaires there...

                The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study to
                propose their position that gays can change. While the Spitzer study
                did not receive promimence in the press in the United States when it
                was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
                countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another developing
                country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing based on
                what appeared in the press (in that country) recently especially
                based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
                unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you because he
                was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is very
                important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in the
                minds of the people if they hear of it.

                In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied registration,
                Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to organize
                seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently lauched
                their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have joined
                their efforts.

                From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the medical
                profession in the country are silent about the homophobic views (and
                in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public these
                homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by the
                right.

                Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the picture -
                ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right as
                legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
                victimized in the West because of gay politics.

                Best wishes,

                Alan



                --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                wrote:
                > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove that we
                > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
                > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone and in
                > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews; some
                > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
                community.
                > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed Christian
                > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out on the
                > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure out
                what
                > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community. We live
                > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different kinds
                of
                > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions; to
                > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape -- just like
                > the heterosexual community.
                >
                > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
                scientific
                > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
                > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
                formulate
                > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is, despite
                > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that we're
                > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people, steadily
                > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
                >
                > -Alex
                >
                > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                > > Hi everyone,
                > >
                > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
                > >
                > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
                > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
                > directly
                > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
                > > My question is has anyone done so?
                > >
                > > Best wishes,
                > >
                > > Alan
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
                <no_reply@y...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject of
                > the
                > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I
                > > personally
                > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies
                from
                > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this
                > study
                > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview with
                > one
                > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
                > background
                > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in the
                > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr. Spitzer,
                he
                > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after learning
                > that
                > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
                > explained
                > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays can
                > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED FROM
                > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
                > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE CONCLUSION
                > HE
                > > > DID.
                > > >
                > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted this
                > > study
                > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and distorted
                > his
                > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced the
                > study
                > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the
                > research
                > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200.
                Some
                > of
                > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not submitted
                > for
                > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility of
                > any
                > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45
                > > minutes,
                > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample and a
                > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
                > verification
                > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation. It's
                > clear
                > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were honest.
                > > >
                > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
                > change.
                > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any hard
                > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable. And
                > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no biblical
                > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone
                > survey
                > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
                > > directly
                > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
                > > >
                > > > -Alex
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
                > > <ophoguy@o...>
                > > > wrote:
                > > > > Hi Alan,
                > > > >
                > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for about
                30
                > > > years and say
                > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
                > However,
                > > > when
                > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
                > established
                > > ex-
                > > > gays to
                > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his study
                > > > through ex-gay
                > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200
                > eligible
                > > > > participants for his study.
                > > > >
                > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from gay
                > to
                > > > straight,
                > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
                attractions,
                > > > they use peer
                > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are high.
                > > Once
                > > > people
                > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change, a
                > lot
                > > of
                > > > them
                > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian. Quite a
                > few
                > > > local
                > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders either
                > > > decided to go
                > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
                > encounters
                > > > but hiding
                > > > > them.
                > > > >
                > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course,
                there
                > is
                > > > no unitary
                > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
                unstable,
                > > and
                > > > that same
                > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things are
                not
                > > > universally
                > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe
                it's
                > > > true because
                > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have had
                > drug,
                > > > alcohol,
                > > > > or sexual addictions.
                > > > >
                > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research and
                > > > Therapy of
                > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
                studying
                > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In fact,
                > NARTH
                > > > releases
                > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it has
                > > > little or no
                > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
                therapists
                > > > follow
                > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused
                > directly
                > > by
                > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result from
                > any
                > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-sex
                > > parent,
                > > > a
                > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
                > > > >
                > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group that
                > says
                > > > that faith
                > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only happens
                > when
                > > > people walk
                > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith and be
                > > > either
                > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
                > ministries,
                > > > many of
                > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a few
                > of
                > > > which have
                > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
                > laypeople
                > > > who are
                > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open
                > hostility
                > > > toward the
                > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as well
                as
                > > > Christians
                > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
                > > > >
                > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
                > residential
                > > > centers.
                > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people who
                > work
                > > > during the
                > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
                > > > weekends. Some of
                > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for women.
                > It
                > > > seems to be
                > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God wants
                > guys
                > > > to be more
                > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed, and
                > > > cross their
                > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the residential
                > > > centers have
                > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
                > > > >
                > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the
                Family
                > > > prefer
                > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being rational
                and
                > > > thoughtful.
                > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in the
                > > past
                > > > is to
                > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul
                > Cameron
                > > > stands out
                > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from obituaries
                of
                > > > people with
                > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he
                > concluded
                > > > that the
                > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced studies
                > which
                > > > were just
                > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring all
                > the
                > > > way.
                > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his peers
                and
                > > his
                > > > so-called
                > > > > research is not credible.
                > > > >
                > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more likely to
                > be
                > > > pedophiles,
                > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for children,
                > that
                > > > gay
                > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a
                > choice,
                > > > being gay
                > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight people
                > to
                > > > become gay,
                > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as we
                > know
                > > > it, that
                > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous,
                middle-
                > > > aged and
                > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
                > > Christians,
                > > > and that
                > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These
                > things
                > > > are simply
                > > > > not true.
                > > > >
                > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com which
                > tracks
                > > > some of
                > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more
                > details
                > > > there, or
                > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
                > > > >
                > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
                > > > >
                > > > > --Steve
                > > > > --ophoguy@o...
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
                > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
                > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to
                > Singapore
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi everyone,
                > > > >
                > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
                concerned
                > > > about
                > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to
                > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
                > > > >
                > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through the
                > ex-
                > > > gay
                > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to them
                > > based
                > > > > on personal experience.
                > > > >
                > > > > Thanks.
                > > > >
                > > > > Best wishes,
                > > > >
                > > > > Alan
              • nyguy_1225
                Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular truth may be. Some people
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 1, 2003
                  Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out
                  there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular
                  truth may be. Some people are intent on reading certain passages of
                  Scripture in such a way as to only lend legitimacy to their own
                  doctrinal prejudices. They'd much rather hold to their own ideology
                  then concede to the possibility than the Bible and the God who
                  inspired it may be more gracious and inclusive than their doctrinal
                  prejudices will allow. For people like this, it really makes no
                  difference how much evidence you would present them with.

                  There is certainly more than enough evidence and information
                  available in various forms these days to enable any objective,
                  reasoning and truth-seeking person to see that that there are
                  countless Christian people of deep and profound faith who live Godly
                  and upright lives, have a high view of Scripture, and who also just
                  happen to be gay. It doesn't take a scholar to see that Christian
                  hostility towards homosexuality and homosexual relationships rests
                  entirely on an interpretation of the Bible that in many respects is
                  open to question.

                  Increasing numbers of respected Bible scholars and theologians have
                  come forward to say that a terrible injustice has been done by the
                  Church in their treatment of gay people and their (mis)understanding
                  of the few passages that continue to be used to support antigay
                  theology. Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, to cite only one of many, many
                  examples, who was former ethics professor at Fuller Theological
                  Seminary and author of over a dozen best-selling Christian books,
                  has written and spoken extensively on the subject. He has said in
                  part: "The Church's treatment of homosexuality has become the
                  greatest heresy in the history of the church." The list of
                  respected Bible scholars and theologians who have spoken and written
                  in the same vein goes on and on and on.

                  The mere fact that despite all the evidence that's now come to the
                  fore to refute the claim that sexual orientation is changeable,
                  despite the dismal success rate of the "ex-gay" movement, despite
                  scores of testimonies from the many who have been involved with
                  these ministries and have come out on the other side to say they're
                  not effective, and despite the countless high profile and
                  embarrassing scandals the "ex-gay" movement has been enmeshed in,
                  these ministries and still continue to claim that homosexual people
                  become heterosexual people, stands as testimony to the fact that
                  some people are simply not open to truth. To these people I say
                  shake the dust off your feet and carry on. For those who are open
                  to coming to terms with the reality that not everything they were
                  taught may have actually been true, there's tons of good stuff out
                  there -- for him (or her) who has ears to hear.

                  -Alex


                  --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                  <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi Alex,
                  >
                  > While many people in the United States do know people like you
                  > exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
                  > developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting
                  active.
                  >
                  > In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay ministries
                  > focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia is
                  the
                  > rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent. Therefore
                  > they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to
                  convert
                  > homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send to
                  them
                  > before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the
                  convertion
                  > therapists could be heros and millionaires there...
                  >
                  > The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study to
                  > propose their position that gays can change. While the Spitzer
                  study
                  > did not receive promimence in the press in the United States when
                  it
                  > was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
                  > countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another
                  developing
                  > country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing based
                  on
                  > what appeared in the press (in that country) recently especially
                  > based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
                  > unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you because
                  he
                  > was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is very
                  > important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in the
                  > minds of the people if they hear of it.
                  >
                  > In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied
                  registration,
                  > Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to organize
                  > seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently lauched
                  > their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have joined
                  > their efforts.
                  >
                  > From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the medical
                  > profession in the country are silent about the homophobic views
                  (and
                  > in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public these
                  > homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by the
                  > right.
                  >
                  > Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the
                  picture -
                  > ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right as
                  > legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
                  > victimized in the West because of gay politics.
                  >
                  > Best wishes,
                  >
                  > Alan
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove that we
                  > > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
                  > > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone and
                  in
                  > > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews; some
                  > > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
                  > community.
                  > > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed Christian
                  > > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out on
                  the
                  > > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure out
                  > what
                  > > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community. We
                  live
                  > > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different
                  kinds
                  > of
                  > > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions; to
                  > > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape -- just
                  like
                  > > the heterosexual community.
                  > >
                  > > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
                  > scientific
                  > > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
                  > > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
                  > formulate
                  > > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is,
                  despite
                  > > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that
                  we're
                  > > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people,
                  steadily
                  > > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
                  > >
                  > > -Alex
                  > >
                  > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                  > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                  > > > Hi everyone,
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
                  > > >
                  > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
                  > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
                  > > directly
                  > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
                  > > > My question is has anyone done so?
                  > > >
                  > > > Best wishes,
                  > > >
                  > > > Alan
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
                  > <no_reply@y...>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject
                  of
                  > > the
                  > > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I
                  > > > personally
                  > > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies
                  > from
                  > > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this
                  > > study
                  > > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview
                  with
                  > > one
                  > > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
                  > > background
                  > > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in
                  the
                  > > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr.
                  Spitzer,
                  > he
                  > > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after
                  learning
                  > > that
                  > > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
                  > > explained
                  > > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays
                  can
                  > > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED
                  FROM
                  > > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
                  > > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE
                  CONCLUSION
                  > > HE
                  > > > > DID.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted
                  this
                  > > > study
                  > > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and
                  distorted
                  > > his
                  > > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced the
                  > > study
                  > > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the
                  > > research
                  > > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200.
                  > Some
                  > > of
                  > > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not
                  submitted
                  > > for
                  > > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility
                  of
                  > > any
                  > > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45
                  > > > minutes,
                  > > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample
                  and a
                  > > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
                  > > verification
                  > > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation.
                  It's
                  > > clear
                  > > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were
                  honest.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
                  > > change.
                  > > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any
                  hard
                  > > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable. And
                  > > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no
                  biblical
                  > > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone
                  > > survey
                  > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
                  > > > directly
                  > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -Alex
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
                  > > > <ophoguy@o...>
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > > > > > Hi Alan,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for
                  about
                  > 30
                  > > > > years and say
                  > > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
                  > > However,
                  > > > > when
                  > > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
                  > > established
                  > > > ex-
                  > > > > gays to
                  > > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his
                  study
                  > > > > through ex-gay
                  > > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200
                  > > eligible
                  > > > > > participants for his study.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from
                  gay
                  > > to
                  > > > > straight,
                  > > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
                  > attractions,
                  > > > > they use peer
                  > > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are
                  high.
                  > > > Once
                  > > > > people
                  > > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change,
                  a
                  > > lot
                  > > > of
                  > > > > them
                  > > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian.
                  Quite a
                  > > few
                  > > > > local
                  > > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders
                  either
                  > > > > decided to go
                  > > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
                  > > encounters
                  > > > > but hiding
                  > > > > > them.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course,
                  > there
                  > > is
                  > > > > no unitary
                  > > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
                  > unstable,
                  > > > and
                  > > > > that same
                  > > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things are
                  > not
                  > > > > universally
                  > > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe
                  > it's
                  > > > > true because
                  > > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have
                  had
                  > > drug,
                  > > > > alcohol,
                  > > > > > or sexual addictions.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research
                  and
                  > > > > Therapy of
                  > > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
                  > studying
                  > > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In
                  fact,
                  > > NARTH
                  > > > > releases
                  > > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it
                  has
                  > > > > little or no
                  > > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
                  > therapists
                  > > > > follow
                  > > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused
                  > > directly
                  > > > by
                  > > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result
                  from
                  > > any
                  > > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-sex
                  > > > parent,
                  > > > > a
                  > > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group
                  that
                  > > says
                  > > > > that faith
                  > > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only
                  happens
                  > > when
                  > > > > people walk
                  > > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith and
                  be
                  > > > > either
                  > > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
                  > > ministries,
                  > > > > many of
                  > > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a
                  few
                  > > of
                  > > > > which have
                  > > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
                  > > laypeople
                  > > > > who are
                  > > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open
                  > > hostility
                  > > > > toward the
                  > > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as
                  well
                  > as
                  > > > > Christians
                  > > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
                  > > residential
                  > > > > centers.
                  > > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people
                  who
                  > > work
                  > > > > during the
                  > > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
                  > > > > weekends. Some of
                  > > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for
                  women.
                  > > It
                  > > > > seems to be
                  > > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God
                  wants
                  > > guys
                  > > > > to be more
                  > > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed,
                  and
                  > > > > cross their
                  > > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the
                  residential
                  > > > > centers have
                  > > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the
                  > Family
                  > > > > prefer
                  > > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being rational
                  > and
                  > > > > thoughtful.
                  > > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in
                  the
                  > > > past
                  > > > > is to
                  > > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul
                  > > Cameron
                  > > > > stands out
                  > > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from
                  obituaries
                  > of
                  > > > > people with
                  > > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he
                  > > concluded
                  > > > > that the
                  > > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced studies
                  > > which
                  > > > > were just
                  > > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring
                  all
                  > > the
                  > > > > way.
                  > > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his peers
                  > and
                  > > > his
                  > > > > so-called
                  > > > > > research is not credible.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more likely
                  to
                  > > be
                  > > > > pedophiles,
                  > > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for
                  children,
                  > > that
                  > > > > gay
                  > > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a
                  > > choice,
                  > > > > being gay
                  > > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight
                  people
                  > > to
                  > > > > become gay,
                  > > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as
                  we
                  > > know
                  > > > > it, that
                  > > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous,
                  > middle-
                  > > > > aged and
                  > > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
                  > > > Christians,
                  > > > > and that
                  > > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These
                  > > things
                  > > > > are simply
                  > > > > > not true.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com which
                  > > tracks
                  > > > > some of
                  > > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more
                  > > details
                  > > > > there, or
                  > > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --Steve
                  > > > > > --ophoguy@o...
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
                  > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
                  > > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to
                  > > Singapore
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi everyone,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
                  > concerned
                  > > > > about
                  > > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves
                  to
                  > > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through
                  the
                  > > ex-
                  > > > > gay
                  > > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to
                  them
                  > > > based
                  > > > > > on personal experience.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thanks.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Best wishes,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Alan
                • alankhoo92002
                  Hi everyone, Thanks for your comments. Has there been any legal action taken against any ex-gay ministries for fraud or harm caused during therapy? Thanks.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 2, 2003
                    Hi everyone,

                    Thanks for your comments. Has there been any legal action taken
                    against any ex-gay ministries for fraud or harm caused during therapy?

                    Thanks.

                    Best wishes,

                    Alan

                    --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out
                    > there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular
                    > truth may be. Some people are intent on reading certain passages
                    of
                    > Scripture in such a way as to only lend legitimacy to their own
                    > doctrinal prejudices. They'd much rather hold to their own
                    ideology
                    > then concede to the possibility than the Bible and the God who
                    > inspired it may be more gracious and inclusive than their doctrinal
                    > prejudices will allow. For people like this, it really makes no
                    > difference how much evidence you would present them with.
                    >
                    > There is certainly more than enough evidence and information
                    > available in various forms these days to enable any objective,
                    > reasoning and truth-seeking person to see that that there are
                    > countless Christian people of deep and profound faith who live
                    Godly
                    > and upright lives, have a high view of Scripture, and who also just
                    > happen to be gay. It doesn't take a scholar to see that Christian
                    > hostility towards homosexuality and homosexual relationships rests
                    > entirely on an interpretation of the Bible that in many respects is
                    > open to question.
                    >
                    > Increasing numbers of respected Bible scholars and theologians have
                    > come forward to say that a terrible injustice has been done by the
                    > Church in their treatment of gay people and their (mis)
                    understanding
                    > of the few passages that continue to be used to support antigay
                    > theology. Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, to cite only one of many, many
                    > examples, who was former ethics professor at Fuller Theological
                    > Seminary and author of over a dozen best-selling Christian books,
                    > has written and spoken extensively on the subject. He has said in
                    > part: "The Church's treatment of homosexuality has become the
                    > greatest heresy in the history of the church." The list of
                    > respected Bible scholars and theologians who have spoken and
                    written
                    > in the same vein goes on and on and on.
                    >
                    > The mere fact that despite all the evidence that's now come to the
                    > fore to refute the claim that sexual orientation is changeable,
                    > despite the dismal success rate of the "ex-gay" movement, despite
                    > scores of testimonies from the many who have been involved with
                    > these ministries and have come out on the other side to say they're
                    > not effective, and despite the countless high profile and
                    > embarrassing scandals the "ex-gay" movement has been enmeshed in,
                    > these ministries and still continue to claim that homosexual people
                    > become heterosexual people, stands as testimony to the fact that
                    > some people are simply not open to truth. To these people I say
                    > shake the dust off your feet and carry on. For those who are open
                    > to coming to terms with the reality that not everything they were
                    > taught may have actually been true, there's tons of good stuff out
                    > there -- for him (or her) who has ears to hear.
                    >
                    > -Alex
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                    > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                    > > Hi Alex,
                    > >
                    > > While many people in the United States do know people like you
                    > > exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
                    > > developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting
                    > active.
                    > >
                    > > In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay ministries
                    > > focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia is
                    > the
                    > > rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent. Therefore
                    > > they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to
                    > convert
                    > > homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send to
                    > them
                    > > before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the
                    > convertion
                    > > therapists could be heros and millionaires there...
                    > >
                    > > The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study to
                    > > propose their position that gays can change. While the Spitzer
                    > study
                    > > did not receive promimence in the press in the United States when
                    > it
                    > > was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
                    > > countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another
                    > developing
                    > > country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing based
                    > on
                    > > what appeared in the press (in that country) recently especially
                    > > based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
                    > > unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you because
                    > he
                    > > was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is very
                    > > important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in the
                    > > minds of the people if they hear of it.
                    > >
                    > > In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied
                    > registration,
                    > > Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to organize
                    > > seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently lauched
                    > > their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have joined
                    > > their efforts.
                    > >
                    > > From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the medical
                    > > profession in the country are silent about the homophobic views
                    > (and
                    > > in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public these
                    > > homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by
                    the
                    > > right.
                    > >
                    > > Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the
                    > picture -
                    > > ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right as
                    > > legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
                    > > victimized in the West because of gay politics.
                    > >
                    > > Best wishes,
                    > >
                    > > Alan
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
                    <no_reply@y...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove that
                    we
                    > > > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
                    > > > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone and
                    > in
                    > > > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews; some
                    > > > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
                    > > community.
                    > > > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed Christian
                    > > > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out on
                    > the
                    > > > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure out
                    > > what
                    > > > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community. We
                    > live
                    > > > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different
                    > kinds
                    > > of
                    > > > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions; to
                    > > > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape -- just
                    > like
                    > > > the heterosexual community.
                    > > >
                    > > > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
                    > > scientific
                    > > > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
                    > > > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
                    > > formulate
                    > > > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is,
                    > despite
                    > > > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that
                    > we're
                    > > > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people,
                    > steadily
                    > > > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
                    > > >
                    > > > -Alex
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                    > > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                    > > > > Hi everyone,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > > > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
                    > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
                    > > > directly
                    > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
                    > > > > My question is has anyone done so?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Best wishes,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Alan
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
                    > > <no_reply@y...>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject
                    > of
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I
                    > > > > personally
                    > > > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies
                    > > from
                    > > > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this
                    > > > study
                    > > > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview
                    > with
                    > > > one
                    > > > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
                    > > > background
                    > > > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in
                    > the
                    > > > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr.
                    > Spitzer,
                    > > he
                    > > > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after
                    > learning
                    > > > that
                    > > > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
                    > > > explained
                    > > > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays
                    > can
                    > > > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED
                    > FROM
                    > > > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
                    > > > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE
                    > CONCLUSION
                    > > > HE
                    > > > > > DID.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted
                    > this
                    > > > > study
                    > > > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and
                    > distorted
                    > > > his
                    > > > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced
                    the
                    > > > study
                    > > > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the
                    > > > research
                    > > > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200.
                    > > Some
                    > > > of
                    > > > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not
                    > submitted
                    > > > for
                    > > > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility
                    > of
                    > > > any
                    > > > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45
                    > > > > minutes,
                    > > > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample
                    > and a
                    > > > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
                    > > > verification
                    > > > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation.
                    > It's
                    > > > clear
                    > > > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were
                    > honest.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
                    > > > change.
                    > > > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any
                    > hard
                    > > > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable.
                    And
                    > > > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no
                    > biblical
                    > > > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone
                    > > > survey
                    > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
                    > > > > directly
                    > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > -Alex
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
                    > > > > <ophoguy@o...>
                    > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > > Hi Alan,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for
                    > about
                    > > 30
                    > > > > > years and say
                    > > > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
                    > > > However,
                    > > > > > when
                    > > > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
                    > > > established
                    > > > > ex-
                    > > > > > gays to
                    > > > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his
                    > study
                    > > > > > through ex-gay
                    > > > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200
                    > > > eligible
                    > > > > > > participants for his study.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from
                    > gay
                    > > > to
                    > > > > > straight,
                    > > > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
                    > > attractions,
                    > > > > > they use peer
                    > > > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are
                    > high.
                    > > > > Once
                    > > > > > people
                    > > > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change,
                    > a
                    > > > lot
                    > > > > of
                    > > > > > them
                    > > > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian.
                    > Quite a
                    > > > few
                    > > > > > local
                    > > > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders
                    > either
                    > > > > > decided to go
                    > > > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
                    > > > encounters
                    > > > > > but hiding
                    > > > > > > them.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course,
                    > > there
                    > > > is
                    > > > > > no unitary
                    > > > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
                    > > unstable,
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > that same
                    > > > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things
                    are
                    > > not
                    > > > > > universally
                    > > > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe
                    > > it's
                    > > > > > true because
                    > > > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have
                    > had
                    > > > drug,
                    > > > > > alcohol,
                    > > > > > > or sexual addictions.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research
                    > and
                    > > > > > Therapy of
                    > > > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
                    > > studying
                    > > > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In
                    > fact,
                    > > > NARTH
                    > > > > > releases
                    > > > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it
                    > has
                    > > > > > little or no
                    > > > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
                    > > therapists
                    > > > > > follow
                    > > > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused
                    > > > directly
                    > > > > by
                    > > > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result
                    > from
                    > > > any
                    > > > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-
                    sex
                    > > > > parent,
                    > > > > > a
                    > > > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group
                    > that
                    > > > says
                    > > > > > that faith
                    > > > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only
                    > happens
                    > > > when
                    > > > > > people walk
                    > > > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith
                    and
                    > be
                    > > > > > either
                    > > > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
                    > > > ministries,
                    > > > > > many of
                    > > > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a
                    > few
                    > > > of
                    > > > > > which have
                    > > > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
                    > > > laypeople
                    > > > > > who are
                    > > > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open
                    > > > hostility
                    > > > > > toward the
                    > > > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as
                    > well
                    > > as
                    > > > > > Christians
                    > > > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
                    > > > residential
                    > > > > > centers.
                    > > > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people
                    > who
                    > > > work
                    > > > > > during the
                    > > > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
                    > > > > > weekends. Some of
                    > > > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for
                    > women.
                    > > > It
                    > > > > > seems to be
                    > > > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God
                    > wants
                    > > > guys
                    > > > > > to be more
                    > > > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed,
                    > and
                    > > > > > cross their
                    > > > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the
                    > residential
                    > > > > > centers have
                    > > > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the
                    > > Family
                    > > > > > prefer
                    > > > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being
                    rational
                    > > and
                    > > > > > thoughtful.
                    > > > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in
                    > the
                    > > > > past
                    > > > > > is to
                    > > > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul
                    > > > Cameron
                    > > > > > stands out
                    > > > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from
                    > obituaries
                    > > of
                    > > > > > people with
                    > > > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he
                    > > > concluded
                    > > > > > that the
                    > > > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced
                    studies
                    > > > which
                    > > > > > were just
                    > > > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring
                    > all
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > way.
                    > > > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his
                    peers
                    > > and
                    > > > > his
                    > > > > > so-called
                    > > > > > > research is not credible.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more
                    likely
                    > to
                    > > > be
                    > > > > > pedophiles,
                    > > > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for
                    > children,
                    > > > that
                    > > > > > gay
                    > > > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a
                    > > > choice,
                    > > > > > being gay
                    > > > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight
                    > people
                    > > > to
                    > > > > > become gay,
                    > > > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as
                    > we
                    > > > know
                    > > > > > it, that
                    > > > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous,
                    > > middle-
                    > > > > > aged and
                    > > > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
                    > > > > Christians,
                    > > > > > and that
                    > > > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These
                    > > > things
                    > > > > > are simply
                    > > > > > > not true.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com
                    which
                    > > > tracks
                    > > > > > some of
                    > > > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more
                    > > > details
                    > > > > > there, or
                    > > > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any
                    questions.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --Steve
                    > > > > > > --ophoguy@o...
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
                    > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
                    > > > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to
                    > > > Singapore
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Hi everyone,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
                    > > concerned
                    > > > > > about
                    > > > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves
                    > to
                    > > > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual
                    menace.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through
                    > the
                    > > > ex-
                    > > > > > gay
                    > > > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to
                    > them
                    > > > > based
                    > > > > > > on personal experience.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Thanks.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Best wishes,
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Alan
                  • nyguy_1225
                    Quite a few from what I recall. Don t know what the outcomes were though. ... therapy? ... passages ... doctrinal ... just ... Christian ... rests ... is ...
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 2, 2003
                      Quite a few from what I recall. Don't know what the outcomes were
                      though.

                      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                      <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                      > Hi everyone,
                      >
                      > Thanks for your comments. Has there been any legal action taken
                      > against any ex-gay ministries for fraud or harm caused during
                      therapy?
                      >
                      > Thanks.
                      >
                      > Best wishes,
                      >
                      > Alan
                      >
                      > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out
                      > > there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular
                      > > truth may be. Some people are intent on reading certain
                      passages
                      > of
                      > > Scripture in such a way as to only lend legitimacy to their own
                      > > doctrinal prejudices. They'd much rather hold to their own
                      > ideology
                      > > then concede to the possibility than the Bible and the God who
                      > > inspired it may be more gracious and inclusive than their
                      doctrinal
                      > > prejudices will allow. For people like this, it really makes no
                      > > difference how much evidence you would present them with.
                      > >
                      > > There is certainly more than enough evidence and information
                      > > available in various forms these days to enable any objective,
                      > > reasoning and truth-seeking person to see that that there are
                      > > countless Christian people of deep and profound faith who live
                      > Godly
                      > > and upright lives, have a high view of Scripture, and who also
                      just
                      > > happen to be gay. It doesn't take a scholar to see that
                      Christian
                      > > hostility towards homosexuality and homosexual relationships
                      rests
                      > > entirely on an interpretation of the Bible that in many respects
                      is
                      > > open to question.
                      > >
                      > > Increasing numbers of respected Bible scholars and theologians
                      have
                      > > come forward to say that a terrible injustice has been done by
                      the
                      > > Church in their treatment of gay people and their (mis)
                      > understanding
                      > > of the few passages that continue to be used to support antigay
                      > > theology. Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, to cite only one of many, many
                      > > examples, who was former ethics professor at Fuller Theological
                      > > Seminary and author of over a dozen best-selling Christian
                      books,
                      > > has written and spoken extensively on the subject. He has said
                      in
                      > > part: "The Church's treatment of homosexuality has become the
                      > > greatest heresy in the history of the church." The list of
                      > > respected Bible scholars and theologians who have spoken and
                      > written
                      > > in the same vein goes on and on and on.
                      > >
                      > > The mere fact that despite all the evidence that's now come to
                      the
                      > > fore to refute the claim that sexual orientation is changeable,
                      > > despite the dismal success rate of the "ex-gay" movement,
                      despite
                      > > scores of testimonies from the many who have been involved with
                      > > these ministries and have come out on the other side to say
                      they're
                      > > not effective, and despite the countless high profile and
                      > > embarrassing scandals the "ex-gay" movement has been enmeshed
                      in,
                      > > these ministries and still continue to claim that homosexual
                      people
                      > > become heterosexual people, stands as testimony to the fact that
                      > > some people are simply not open to truth. To these people I say
                      > > shake the dust off your feet and carry on. For those who are
                      open
                      > > to coming to terms with the reality that not everything they
                      were
                      > > taught may have actually been true, there's tons of good stuff
                      out
                      > > there -- for him (or her) who has ears to hear.
                      > >
                      > > -Alex
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                      > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                      > > > Hi Alex,
                      > > >
                      > > > While many people in the United States do know people like you
                      > > > exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
                      > > > developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting
                      > > active.
                      > > >
                      > > > In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay
                      ministries
                      > > > focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia
                      is
                      > > the
                      > > > rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent.
                      Therefore
                      > > > they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to
                      > > convert
                      > > > homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send
                      to
                      > > them
                      > > > before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the
                      > > convertion
                      > > > therapists could be heros and millionaires there...
                      > > >
                      > > > The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study
                      to
                      > > > propose their position that gays can change. While the
                      Spitzer
                      > > study
                      > > > did not receive promimence in the press in the United States
                      when
                      > > it
                      > > > was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
                      > > > countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another
                      > > developing
                      > > > country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing
                      based
                      > > on
                      > > > what appeared in the press (in that country) recently
                      especially
                      > > > based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
                      > > > unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you
                      because
                      > > he
                      > > > was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is
                      very
                      > > > important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in
                      the
                      > > > minds of the people if they hear of it.
                      > > >
                      > > > In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied
                      > > registration,
                      > > > Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to
                      organize
                      > > > seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently
                      lauched
                      > > > their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have
                      joined
                      > > > their efforts.
                      > > >
                      > > > From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the
                      medical
                      > > > profession in the country are silent about the homophobic
                      views
                      > > (and
                      > > > in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public
                      these
                      > > > homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by
                      > the
                      > > > right.
                      > > >
                      > > > Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the
                      > > picture -
                      > > > ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right
                      as
                      > > > legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
                      > > > victimized in the West because of gay politics.
                      > > >
                      > > > Best wishes,
                      > > >
                      > > > Alan
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
                      > <no_reply@y...>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove
                      that
                      > we
                      > > > > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
                      > > > > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone
                      and
                      > > in
                      > > > > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews;
                      some
                      > > > > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
                      > > > community.
                      > > > > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed
                      Christian
                      > > > > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out
                      on
                      > > the
                      > > > > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure
                      out
                      > > > what
                      > > > > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community.
                      We
                      > > live
                      > > > > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different
                      > > kinds
                      > > > of
                      > > > > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions;
                      to
                      > > > > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape --
                      just
                      > > like
                      > > > > the heterosexual community.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
                      > > > scientific
                      > > > > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
                      > > > > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
                      > > > formulate
                      > > > > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is,
                      > > despite
                      > > > > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that
                      > > we're
                      > > > > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people,
                      > > steadily
                      > > > > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -Alex
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                      > > > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > > Hi everyone,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
                      > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results
                      that
                      > > > > directly
                      > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
                      > > > > > My question is has anyone done so?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Best wishes,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Alan
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
                      > > > <no_reply@y...>
                      > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the
                      subject
                      > > of
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that
                      I
                      > > > > > personally
                      > > > > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting
                      testimonies
                      > > > from
                      > > > > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when
                      this
                      > > > > study
                      > > > > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone
                      interview
                      > > with
                      > > > > one
                      > > > > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
                      > > > > background
                      > > > > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation
                      in
                      > > the
                      > > > > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr.
                      > > Spitzer,
                      > > > he
                      > > > > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after
                      > > learning
                      > > > > that
                      > > > > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
                      > > > > explained
                      > > > > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that
                      gays
                      > > can
                      > > > > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE
                      DISQUALIFIED
                      > > FROM
                      > > > > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A
                      ROCKET
                      > > > > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE
                      > > CONCLUSION
                      > > > > HE
                      > > > > > > DID.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers
                      blasted
                      > > this
                      > > > > > study
                      > > > > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and
                      > > distorted
                      > > > > his
                      > > > > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced
                      > the
                      > > > > study
                      > > > > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things,
                      the
                      > > > > research
                      > > > > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of
                      200.
                      > > > Some
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not
                      > > submitted
                      > > > > for
                      > > > > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the
                      credibility
                      > > of
                      > > > > any
                      > > > > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for
                      45
                      > > > > > minutes,
                      > > > > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient
                      sample
                      > > and a
                      > > > > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
                      > > > > verification
                      > > > > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation.
                      > > It's
                      > > > > clear
                      > > > > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were
                      > > honest.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
                      > > > > change.
                      > > > > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been,
                      any
                      > > hard
                      > > > > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable.
                      > And
                      > > > > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no
                      > > biblical
                      > > > > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a
                      phone
                      > > > > survey
                      > > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results
                      that
                      > > > > > directly
                      > > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > -Alex
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
                      > > > > > <ophoguy@o...>
                      > > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > > > Hi Alan,
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for
                      > > about
                      > > > 30
                      > > > > > > years and say
                      > > > > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
                      > > > > However,
                      > > > > > > when
                      > > > > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
                      > > > > established
                      > > > > > ex-
                      > > > > > > gays to
                      > > > > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his
                      > > study
                      > > > > > > through ex-gay
                      > > > > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got
                      200
                      > > > > eligible
                      > > > > > > > participants for his study.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change
                      from
                      > > gay
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > > straight,
                      > > > > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
                      > > > attractions,
                      > > > > > > they use peer
                      > > > > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are
                      > > high.
                      > > > > > Once
                      > > > > > > people
                      > > > > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to
                      change,
                      > > a
                      > > > > lot
                      > > > > > of
                      > > > > > > them
                      > > > > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian.
                      > > Quite a
                      > > > > few
                      > > > > > > local
                      > > > > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders
                      > > either
                      > > > > > > decided to go
                      > > > > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
                      > > > > encounters
                      > > > > > > but hiding
                      > > > > > > > them.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of
                      course,
                      > > > there
                      > > > > is
                      > > > > > > no unitary
                      > > > > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
                      > > > unstable,
                      > > > > > and
                      > > > > > > that same
                      > > > > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things
                      > are
                      > > > not
                      > > > > > > universally
                      > > > > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups
                      believe
                      > > > it's
                      > > > > > > true because
                      > > > > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who
                      have
                      > > had
                      > > > > drug,
                      > > > > > > alcohol,
                      > > > > > > > or sexual addictions.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for
                      Research
                      > > and
                      > > > > > > Therapy of
                      > > > > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
                      > > > studying
                      > > > > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In
                      > > fact,
                      > > > > NARTH
                      > > > > > > releases
                      > > > > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and
                      it
                      > > has
                      > > > > > > little or no
                      > > > > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
                      > > > therapists
                      > > > > > > follow
                      > > > > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are
                      caused
                      > > > > directly
                      > > > > > by
                      > > > > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can
                      result
                      > > from
                      > > > > any
                      > > > > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-
                      > sex
                      > > > > > parent,
                      > > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group
                      > > that
                      > > > > says
                      > > > > > > that faith
                      > > > > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only
                      > > happens
                      > > > > when
                      > > > > > > people walk
                      > > > > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith
                      > and
                      > > be
                      > > > > > > either
                      > > > > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
                      > > > > ministries,
                      > > > > > > many of
                      > > > > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support
                      groups, a
                      > > few
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > > which have
                      > > > > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
                      > > > > laypeople
                      > > > > > > who are
                      > > > > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists;
                      open
                      > > > > hostility
                      > > > > > > toward the
                      > > > > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as
                      > > well
                      > > > as
                      > > > > > > Christians
                      > > > > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
                      > > > > residential
                      > > > > > > centers.
                      > > > > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20
                      people
                      > > who
                      > > > > work
                      > > > > > > during the
                      > > > > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings
                      and
                      > > > > > > weekends. Some of
                      > > > > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for
                      > > women.
                      > > > > It
                      > > > > > > seems to be
                      > > > > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God
                      > > wants
                      > > > > guys
                      > > > > > > to be more
                      > > > > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-
                      obsessed,
                      > > and
                      > > > > > > cross their
                      > > > > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the
                      > > residential
                      > > > > > > centers have
                      > > > > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on
                      the
                      > > > Family
                      > > > > > > prefer
                      > > > > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being
                      > rational
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > > thoughtful.
                      > > > > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as
                      in
                      > > the
                      > > > > > past
                      > > > > > > is to
                      > > > > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr.
                      Paul
                      > > > > Cameron
                      > > > > > > stands out
                      > > > > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from
                      > > obituaries
                      > > > of
                      > > > > > > people with
                      > > > > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available,
                      he
                      > > > > concluded
                      > > > > > > that the
                      > > > > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced
                      > studies
                      > > > > which
                      > > > > > > were just
                      > > > > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and
                      distoring
                      > > all
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > > way.
                      > > > > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his
                      > peers
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > his
                      > > > > > > so-called
                      > > > > > > > research is not credible.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more
                      > likely
                      > > to
                      > > > > be
                      > > > > > > pedophiles,
                      > > > > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for
                      > > children,
                      > > > > that
                      > > > > > > gay
                      > > > > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is
                      a
                      > > > > choice,
                      > > > > > > being gay
                      > > > > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight
                      > > people
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > > become gay,
                      > > > > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization
                      as
                      > > we
                      > > > > know
                      > > > > > > it, that
                      > > > > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are
                      monogamous,
                      > > > middle-
                      > > > > > > aged and
                      > > > > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
                      > > > > > Christians,
                      > > > > > > and that
                      > > > > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder.
                      These
                      > > > > things
                      > > > > > > are simply
                      > > > > > > > not true.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com
                      > which
                      > > > > tracks
                      > > > > > > some of
                      > > > > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find
                      more
                      > > > > details
                      > > > > > > there, or
                      > > > > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any
                      > questions.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > --Steve
                      > > > > > > > --ophoguy@o...
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
                      > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
                      > > > > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting
                      to
                      > > > > Singapore
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Hi everyone,
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
                      > > > concerned
                      > > > > > > about
                      > > > > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting
                      themselves
                      > > to
                      > > > > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual
                      > menace.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone
                      through
                      > > the
                      > > > > ex-
                      > > > > > > gay
                      > > > > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations
                      to
                      > > them
                      > > > > > based
                      > > > > > > > on personal experience.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Thanks.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Best wishes,
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Alan
                    • Norm
                      I haven t not heard of any legal action, but the ex-gay group PFOX is also seeking legal action against pro-gay groups. So, everyone get a lawyer! As for the
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 2, 2003
                        I haven't not heard of any legal action, but the ex-gay group PFOX
                        is also seeking legal action against pro-gay groups. So, everyone
                        get a lawyer!

                        As for the Singapore ex-gay conference, Ex-Gay Watch posted a letter
                        published by a the gay-positive psychological group, AFFIRM,
                        challenging the credentials of the presentor of the ex-gay seminar,
                        Melvin W. Wong.
                        http://www.exgaywatch.com/xgw/2003/11/potential_fraud.html

                        Norm!


                        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                        <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                        > Hi everyone,
                        >
                        > Thanks for your comments. Has there been any legal action taken
                        > against any ex-gay ministries for fraud or harm caused during
                        therapy?
                        >
                        > Thanks.
                        >
                        > Best wishes,
                        >
                        > Alan
                        >
                        > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out
                        > > there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular
                        > > truth may be. Some people are intent on reading certain
                        passages
                        > of
                        > > Scripture in such a way as to only lend legitimacy to their own
                        > > doctrinal prejudices. They'd much rather hold to their own
                        > ideology
                        > > then concede to the possibility than the Bible and the God who
                        > > inspired it may be more gracious and inclusive than their
                        doctrinal
                        > > prejudices will allow. For people like this, it really makes no
                        > > difference how much evidence you would present them with.
                        > >
                        > > There is certainly more than enough evidence and information
                        > > available in various forms these days to enable any objective,
                        > > reasoning and truth-seeking person to see that that there are
                        > > countless Christian people of deep and profound faith who live
                        > Godly
                        > > and upright lives, have a high view of Scripture, and who also
                        just
                        > > happen to be gay. It doesn't take a scholar to see that
                        Christian
                        > > hostility towards homosexuality and homosexual relationships
                        rests
                        > > entirely on an interpretation of the Bible that in many respects
                        is
                        > > open to question.
                        > >
                        > > Increasing numbers of respected Bible scholars and theologians
                        have
                        > > come forward to say that a terrible injustice has been done by
                        the
                        > > Church in their treatment of gay people and their (mis)
                        > understanding
                        > > of the few passages that continue to be used to support antigay
                        > > theology. Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, to cite only one of many, many
                        > > examples, who was former ethics professor at Fuller Theological
                        > > Seminary and author of over a dozen best-selling Christian
                        books,
                        > > has written and spoken extensively on the subject. He has said
                        in
                        > > part: "The Church's treatment of homosexuality has become the
                        > > greatest heresy in the history of the church." The list of
                        > > respected Bible scholars and theologians who have spoken and
                        > written
                        > > in the same vein goes on and on and on.
                        > >
                        > > The mere fact that despite all the evidence that's now come to
                        the
                        > > fore to refute the claim that sexual orientation is changeable,
                        > > despite the dismal success rate of the "ex-gay" movement,
                        despite
                        > > scores of testimonies from the many who have been involved with
                        > > these ministries and have come out on the other side to say
                        they're
                        > > not effective, and despite the countless high profile and
                        > > embarrassing scandals the "ex-gay" movement has been enmeshed
                        in,
                        > > these ministries and still continue to claim that homosexual
                        people
                        > > become heterosexual people, stands as testimony to the fact that
                        > > some people are simply not open to truth. To these people I say
                        > > shake the dust off your feet and carry on. For those who are
                        open
                        > > to coming to terms with the reality that not everything they
                        were
                        > > taught may have actually been true, there's tons of good stuff
                        out
                        > > there -- for him (or her) who has ears to hear.
                        > >
                        > > -Alex
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                        > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                        > > > Hi Alex,
                        > > >
                        > > > While many people in the United States do know people like you
                        > > > exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
                        > > > developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting
                        > > active.
                        > > >
                        > > > In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay
                        ministries
                        > > > focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia
                        is
                        > > the
                        > > > rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent.
                        Therefore
                        > > > they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to
                        > > convert
                        > > > homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send
                        to
                        > > them
                        > > > before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the
                        > > convertion
                        > > > therapists could be heros and millionaires there...
                        > > >
                        > > > The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study
                        to
                        > > > propose their position that gays can change. While the
                        Spitzer
                        > > study
                        > > > did not receive promimence in the press in the United States
                        when
                        > > it
                        > > > was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
                        > > > countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another
                        > > developing
                        > > > country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing
                        based
                        > > on
                        > > > what appeared in the press (in that country) recently
                        especially
                        > > > based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
                        > > > unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you
                        because
                        > > he
                        > > > was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is
                        very
                        > > > important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in
                        the
                        > > > minds of the people if they hear of it.
                        > > >
                        > > > In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied
                        > > registration,
                        > > > Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to
                        organize
                        > > > seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently
                        lauched
                        > > > their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have
                        joined
                        > > > their efforts.
                        > > >
                        > > > From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the
                        medical
                        > > > profession in the country are silent about the homophobic
                        views
                        > > (and
                        > > > in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public
                        these
                        > > > homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by
                        > the
                        > > > right.
                        > > >
                        > > > Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the
                        > > picture -
                        > > > ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right
                        as
                        > > > legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
                        > > > victimized in the West because of gay politics.
                        > > >
                        > > > Best wishes,
                        > > >
                        > > > Alan
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
                        > <no_reply@y...>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove
                        that
                        > we
                        > > > > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
                        > > > > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone
                        and
                        > > in
                        > > > > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews;
                        some
                        > > > > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
                        > > > community.
                        > > > > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed
                        Christian
                        > > > > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out
                        on
                        > > the
                        > > > > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure
                        out
                        > > > what
                        > > > > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community.
                        We
                        > > live
                        > > > > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different
                        > > kinds
                        > > > of
                        > > > > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions;
                        to
                        > > > > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape --
                        just
                        > > like
                        > > > > the heterosexual community.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
                        > > > scientific
                        > > > > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
                        > > > > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
                        > > > formulate
                        > > > > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is,
                        > > despite
                        > > > > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that
                        > > we're
                        > > > > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people,
                        > > steadily
                        > > > > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -Alex
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                        > > > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > > Hi everyone,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > > > > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
                        > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results
                        that
                        > > > > directly
                        > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
                        > > > > > My question is has anyone done so?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Best wishes,
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Alan
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
                        > > > <no_reply@y...>
                        > > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the
                        subject
                        > > of
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that
                        I
                        > > > > > personally
                        > > > > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting
                        testimonies
                        > > > from
                        > > > > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when
                        this
                        > > > > study
                        > > > > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone
                        interview
                        > > with
                        > > > > one
                        > > > > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
                        > > > > background
                        > > > > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation
                        in
                        > > the
                        > > > > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr.
                        > > Spitzer,
                        > > > he
                        > > > > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after
                        > > learning
                        > > > > that
                        > > > > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
                        > > > > explained
                        > > > > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that
                        gays
                        > > can
                        > > > > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE
                        DISQUALIFIED
                        > > FROM
                        > > > > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A
                        ROCKET
                        > > > > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE
                        > > CONCLUSION
                        > > > > HE
                        > > > > > > DID.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers
                        blasted
                        > > this
                        > > > > > study
                        > > > > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and
                        > > distorted
                        > > > > his
                        > > > > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced
                        > the
                        > > > > study
                        > > > > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things,
                        the
                        > > > > research
                        > > > > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of
                        200.
                        > > > Some
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not
                        > > submitted
                        > > > > for
                        > > > > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the
                        credibility
                        > > of
                        > > > > any
                        > > > > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for
                        45
                        > > > > > minutes,
                        > > > > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient
                        sample
                        > > and a
                        > > > > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
                        > > > > verification
                        > > > > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation.
                        > > It's
                        > > > > clear
                        > > > > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were
                        > > honest.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
                        > > > > change.
                        > > > > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been,
                        any
                        > > hard
                        > > > > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable.
                        > And
                        > > > > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no
                        > > biblical
                        > > > > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a
                        phone
                        > > > > survey
                        > > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results
                        that
                        > > > > > directly
                        > > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > -Alex
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
                        > > > > > <ophoguy@o...>
                        > > > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > > > > Hi Alan,
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for
                        > > about
                        > > > 30
                        > > > > > > years and say
                        > > > > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
                        > > > > However,
                        > > > > > > when
                        > > > > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
                        > > > > established
                        > > > > > ex-
                        > > > > > > gays to
                        > > > > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his
                        > > study
                        > > > > > > through ex-gay
                        > > > > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got
                        200
                        > > > > eligible
                        > > > > > > > participants for his study.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change
                        from
                        > > gay
                        > > > > to
                        > > > > > > straight,
                        > > > > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
                        > > > attractions,
                        > > > > > > they use peer
                        > > > > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are
                        > > high.
                        > > > > > Once
                        > > > > > > people
                        > > > > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to
                        change,
                        > > a
                        > > > > lot
                        > > > > > of
                        > > > > > > them
                        > > > > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian.
                        > > Quite a
                        > > > > few
                        > > > > > > local
                        > > > > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders
                        > > either
                        > > > > > > decided to go
                        > > > > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
                        > > > > encounters
                        > > > > > > but hiding
                        > > > > > > > them.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of
                        course,
                        > > > there
                        > > > > is
                        > > > > > > no unitary
                        > > > > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
                        > > > unstable,
                        > > > > > and
                        > > > > > > that same
                        > > > > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things
                        > are
                        > > > not
                        > > > > > > universally
                        > > > > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups
                        believe
                        > > > it's
                        > > > > > > true because
                        > > > > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who
                        have
                        > > had
                        > > > > drug,
                        > > > > > > alcohol,
                        > > > > > > > or sexual addictions.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for
                        Research
                        > > and
                        > > > > > > Therapy of
                        > > > > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
                        > > > studying
                        > > > > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In
                        > > fact,
                        > > > > NARTH
                        > > > > > > releases
                        > > > > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and
                        it
                        > > has
                        > > > > > > little or no
                        > > > > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
                        > > > therapists
                        > > > > > > follow
                        > > > > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are
                        caused
                        > > > > directly
                        > > > > > by
                        > > > > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can
                        result
                        > > from
                        > > > > any
                        > > > > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-
                        > sex
                        > > > > > parent,
                        > > > > > > a
                        > > > > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group
                        > > that
                        > > > > says
                        > > > > > > that faith
                        > > > > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only
                        > > happens
                        > > > > when
                        > > > > > > people walk
                        > > > > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith
                        > and
                        > > be
                        > > > > > > either
                        > > > > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
                        > > > > ministries,
                        > > > > > > many of
                        > > > > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support
                        groups, a
                        > > few
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > > > which have
                        > > > > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
                        > > > > laypeople
                        > > > > > > who are
                        > > > > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists;
                        open
                        > > > > hostility
                        > > > > > > toward the
                        > > > > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as
                        > > well
                        > > > as
                        > > > > > > Christians
                        > > > > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
                        > > > > residential
                        > > > > > > centers.
                        > > > > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20
                        people
                        > > who
                        > > > > work
                        > > > > > > during the
                        > > > > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings
                        and
                        > > > > > > weekends. Some of
                        > > > > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for
                        > > women.
                        > > > > It
                        > > > > > > seems to be
                        > > > > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God
                        > > wants
                        > > > > guys
                        > > > > > > to be more
                        > > > > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-
                        obsessed,
                        > > and
                        > > > > > > cross their
                        > > > > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the
                        > > residential
                        > > > > > > centers have
                        > > > > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on
                        the
                        > > > Family
                        > > > > > > prefer
                        > > > > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being
                        > rational
                        > > > and
                        > > > > > > thoughtful.
                        > > > > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as
                        in
                        > > the
                        > > > > > past
                        > > > > > > is to
                        > > > > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr.
                        Paul
                        > > > > Cameron
                        > > > > > > stands out
                        > > > > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from
                        > > obituaries
                        > > > of
                        > > > > > > people with
                        > > > > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available,
                        he
                        > > > > concluded
                        > > > > > > that the
                        > > > > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced
                        > studies
                        > > > > which
                        > > > > > > were just
                        > > > > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and
                        distoring
                        > > all
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > > way.
                        > > > > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his
                        > peers
                        > > > and
                        > > > > > his
                        > > > > > > so-called
                        > > > > > > > research is not credible.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more
                        > likely
                        > > to
                        > > > > be
                        > > > > > > pedophiles,
                        > > > > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for
                        > > children,
                        > > > > that
                        > > > > > > gay
                        > > > > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is
                        a
                        > > > > choice,
                        > > > > > > being gay
                        > > > > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight
                        > > people
                        > > > > to
                        > > > > > > become gay,
                        > > > > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization
                        as
                        > > we
                        > > > > know
                        > > > > > > it, that
                        > > > > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are
                        monogamous,
                        > > > middle-
                        > > > > > > aged and
                        > > > > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
                        > > > > > Christians,
                        > > > > > > and that
                        > > > > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder.
                        These
                        > > > > things
                        > > > > > > are simply
                        > > > > > > > not true.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com
                        > which
                        > > > > tracks
                        > > > > > > some of
                        > > > > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find
                        more
                        > > > > details
                        > > > > > > there, or
                        > > > > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any
                        > questions.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > --Steve
                        > > > > > > > --ophoguy@o...
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
                        > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
                        > > > > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting
                        to
                        > > > > Singapore
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Hi everyone,
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
                        > > > concerned
                        > > > > > > about
                        > > > > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting
                        themselves
                        > > to
                        > > > > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual
                        > menace.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone
                        through
                        > > the
                        > > > > ex-
                        > > > > > > gay
                        > > > > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations
                        to
                        > > them
                        > > > > > based
                        > > > > > > > on personal experience.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Thanks.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Best wishes,
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Alan
                      • calldon2k
                        ... about ... I am really glad that the above group can now proclaim that THEY KNOW The Roots & Causes of Homosexuality. People have been searching for The
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 19, 2004
                          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
                          <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
                          > Hi everyone,
                          >
                          > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am concerned
                          about
                          > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves to
                          > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual menace.
                          >
                          > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
                          >
                          > http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm


                          I am really glad that the above group can now proclaim that THEY
                          KNOW "The Roots & Causes of Homosexuality." People have been
                          searching for "The Roots & Causes of Homosexuality" for many years
                          and can't seem to find them. Now...these folks have the answers, I'm
                          sure, all wrapped up in a box of platitudes and cliches, ready for
                          anyone to embrace to support their personal prejudices!

                          How nice!

                          =====
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