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Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Exodus responds to Jeremy Marks

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  • Lisa Diguardi
    Good point. Just because someone is saying something nicely doesn t mean they aren t being abusive. If you knew a woman whose husband was accusing her of
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 5, 2003
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      Good point. Just because someone is saying something nicely
      doesn't mean they aren't being abusive. If you knew a woman
      whose husband was accusing her of having affairs, telling her
      she was fat and unattractive, that she was stupid, and that she
      was a lazy no-good housekeeper who is lousy in bed you wouldn't
      ask her if he was saying it nicely. It wouldn't matter how nice
      he was being about it, it's still an attempt to break down her
      self-esteem to the point of self-hatred.

      Lisa D.

      > I am disappointed in the Exodus' response. It evades
      > specifically
      > addressing reparative therapy and insteads focus on how nice
      > ex-gay
      > counselors are.

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    • nyguy_1225
      Well, what else can they say??!! There isn t a whole lot of wiggle room when you re promoting a doctrine that (a) has no real biblical basis to it, (b) God
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 5, 2003
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        Well, what else can they say??!! There isn't a whole lot of wiggle
        room when you're promoting a doctrine that (a) has no real biblical
        basis to it, (b) God himself has not supported it, and (c) their own
        history bears witness to the fact that it has borne little, if any,
        fruit at all!

        -Alex

        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Diguardi
        <diguardi@y...> wrote:
        > Good point. Just because someone is saying something nicely
        > doesn't mean they aren't being abusive. If you knew a woman
        > whose husband was accusing her of having affairs, telling her
        > she was fat and unattractive, that she was stupid, and that she
        > was a lazy no-good housekeeper who is lousy in bed you wouldn't
        > ask her if he was saying it nicely. It wouldn't matter how nice
        > he was being about it, it's still an attempt to break down her
        > self-esteem to the point of self-hatred.
        >
        > Lisa D.
        >
        > > I am disappointed in the Exodus' response. It evades
        > > specifically
        > > addressing reparative therapy and insteads focus on how nice
        > > ex-gay
        > > counselors are.
        >
        > __________________________________
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
        > http://calendar.yahoo.com
      • nyguy_1225
        Well, what else can they say??!! Jeremy is right. And besides, there isn t a whole lot of wiggle room when one is promoting a doctrine that (a) has no real
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 5, 2003
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          Well, what else can they say??!! Jeremy is right. And besides,
          there isn't a whole lot of wiggle room when one is promoting a
          doctrine that (a) has no real solid biblical basis to it, (b) that
          God Himself is not supporting, and (c) that their own history bears
          such blatant witness to the fact that it's borne little, if any,
          fruit at all.

          -Alex


          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Diguardi
          <diguardi@y...> wrote:
          > Good point. Just because someone is saying something nicely
          > doesn't mean they aren't being abusive. If you knew a woman
          > whose husband was accusing her of having affairs, telling her
          > she was fat and unattractive, that she was stupid, and that she
          > was a lazy no-good housekeeper who is lousy in bed you wouldn't
          > ask her if he was saying it nicely. It wouldn't matter how nice
          > he was being about it, it's still an attempt to break down her
          > self-esteem to the point of self-hatred.
          >
          > Lisa D.
          >
          > > I am disappointed in the Exodus' response. It evades
          > > specifically
          > > addressing reparative therapy and insteads focus on how nice
          > > ex-gay
          > > counselors are.
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
          > http://calendar.yahoo.com
        • Norm
          Good cheating wife analogy. I had not thought of it that way before. Typically, the first of steps of ex-gay therapy involve identifying and confessing gay
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 5, 2003
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            Good 'cheating wife' analogy. I had not thought of it that way
            before.

            Typically, the first of steps of ex-gay "therapy" involve
            identifying and confessing gay sins. Since the supposed "roots of
            homosexuality" promoted by ex-gay theorists are so broad and vague,
            most ex-gay participants are led to believe they are completely
            spiritually, socially, emotionally defective. I certainly felt that
            way.

            And, yet, the ex-gay "counselors" I met were very nice and avoided
            language that could be considered hateful toward gays. In fact they
            were so nice that I felt even more self-loathing when I disagreed
            with them.

            So I agree with Exodus' Randy Thomas, that ex-gay counselors "would
            never tell people to consider themselves a menace or deviant". It's
            their practices that often lead ex-gay participants to that
            conclusion.

            Norm!

            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Diguardi
            <diguardi@y...> wrote:
            > Good point. Just because someone is saying something nicely
            > doesn't mean they aren't being abusive. If you knew a woman
            > whose husband was accusing her of having affairs, telling her
            > she was fat and unattractive, that she was stupid, and that she
            > was a lazy no-good housekeeper who is lousy in bed you wouldn't
            > ask her if he was saying it nicely. It wouldn't matter how nice
            > he was being about it, it's still an attempt to break down her
            > self-esteem to the point of self-hatred.
            >
            > Lisa D.
            >
            > > I am disappointed in the Exodus' response. It evades
            > > specifically
            > > addressing reparative therapy and insteads focus on how nice
            > > ex-gay
            > > counselors are.
            >
            > __________________________________
            > Do you Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
            > http://calendar.yahoo.com
          • Norm
            It s odd that Exodus chose to bring more attention to the Beacon Journal article and Jeremy Marks. The article may have gone largely unnoticed otherwise.
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 5, 2003
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              It's odd that Exodus chose to bring more attention to the Beacon
              Journal article and Jeremy Marks. The article may have gone largely
              unnoticed otherwise. Maybe Exodus is truly worried about Marks'
              message and story.

              Norm!


              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
              wrote:
              > Well, what else can they say??!! Jeremy is right. And besides,
              > there isn't a whole lot of wiggle room when one is promoting a
              > doctrine that (a) has no real solid biblical basis to it, (b) that
              > God Himself is not supporting, and (c) that their own history
              bears
              > such blatant witness to the fact that it's borne little, if any,
              > fruit at all.
              >
              > -Alex
            • nyguy_1225
              I would think that they are. Jeremy was after all the hands-down Exodus leader in the UK for almost 15 years. But unlike other ex- gays who after coming to
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 6, 2003
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                I would think that they are. Jeremy was after all the hands-down
                Exodus leader in the UK for almost 15 years. But unlike other ex-
                gays who after coming to realize that God is not in the business of
                making gay people straight and that the Bible calls for no such
                thing simply withered away, Jeremy instead changed the focus of his
                Courage Trust ministry to provide more realistic support for
                Christian gay people and came back even stronger -- and many of
                those who had left the ministry when it was "ex-gay" focused have
                now returned. And to make matters worse (for Exodus) he's quite
                outspoken and a brilliant, biblically-grounded, loving and gracious
                man of integrity. In short, he's become a force to be reckoned
                with. Consequently, I would think Exodus would take every
                opportunity they could to throw pot shots and try to discredit him
                and his story. Good luck! :-)

                -Alex

                --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                > It's odd that Exodus chose to bring more attention to the Beacon
                > Journal article and Jeremy Marks. The article may have gone
                largely
                > unnoticed otherwise. Maybe Exodus is truly worried about Marks'
                > message and story.
                >
                > Norm!
                >
                >
                > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > Well, what else can they say??!! Jeremy is right. And besides,
                > > there isn't a whole lot of wiggle room when one is promoting a
                > > doctrine that (a) has no real solid biblical basis to it, (b)
                that
                > > God Himself is not supporting, and (c) that their own history
                > bears
                > > such blatant witness to the fact that it's borne little, if any,
                > > fruit at all.
                > >
                > > -Alex
              • Steve Boese
                ... Not unlike some 12-step programs. It s not just the nonproductive / addictive habit that s the problem, it s a broad trait encompassing psychological and
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 7, 2003
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                  Norm said:
                  > most ex-gay participants are led to believe they are
                  > completely spiritually, socially, emotionally defective.

                  Not unlike some 12-step programs. It's not just the nonproductive /
                  addictive habit that's the problem, it's a broad trait encompassing
                  psychological and spiritual deficits for which the best answer is to be
                  broken down & rebuilt. 12-step stuff has been good for some, but can also
                  be used manipulatively and abusively.

                  --Steve
                • Norm
                  I have heard ex-gay treatments compared with Alcoholics Anonymous 12-step program. Ex-gay promoters have used the comparison when confronted by the low
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 8, 2003
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                    I have heard ex-gay treatments compared with Alcoholics Anonymous'
                    12-step program. Ex-gay promoters have used the comparison when
                    confronted by the low "success" rate of reparative therapy. They
                    argue that recidivism is common in both programs; therefore, it
                    should not be surprising that there are so few "successful", long-
                    term, ex-gays.

                    One problem I have with the comparison is that I don't think the
                    programs have the same goals. As I understand it, AA participants
                    do not anticipant complete repression of their addiction. Rather,
                    AA'ers recognize that addiction is a life-long problem to cope
                    with.

                    Ex-gay treatments, OTOH, usually go beyond repression and coping.
                    Although some ex-gays reluctantly admit that their same-sex desires
                    remain, I think few would state that they will probably always have
                    homosexual desires. Instead, the focus is often on becoming
                    heterosexual. I suppose one could argue that sobriety is the AA
                    equivalent of ex-gay treatment's heterosexuality, I don't think
                    sobriety is viewed as much as an identity as heterosexuality is.

                    The danger in both programs is to view them as universally
                    infallible. AA is widely viewed as a good treatment, but it is
                    dangerous to say AA is THE treatment for alcohol abuser.
                    Particularly among religious fundamentalists, there is a tendency to
                    quickly identify the 'one right path' for a problem. I have even
                    heard some Christians say that AA is the only right, "Christian"
                    method of dealing with alcoholism. When groups declares a program
                    infallible is when the group will pressure and manipulate
                    program "failures" and critics to protect the integrity of the
                    program.

                    Norm!

                    --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese" <steve@o...>
                    wrote:
                    > Norm said:
                    > > most ex-gay participants are led to believe they are
                    > > completely spiritually, socially, emotionally defective.
                    >
                    > Not unlike some 12-step programs. It's not just the
                    nonproductive /
                    > addictive habit that's the problem, it's a broad trait encompassing
                    > psychological and spiritual deficits for which the best answer is
                    to be
                    > broken down & rebuilt. 12-step stuff has been good for some, but
                    can also
                    > be used manipulatively and abusively.
                    >
                    > --Steve
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