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Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves

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  • Paul Jackson
    Rusty, Contrary to your idea that anyone who does not think as you, or agrees to your veiw because you happen to be well schooled in the field of psychology is
    Message 1 of 22 , May 4, 2003
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      Rusty, Contrary to your idea that anyone who does not think as you, or agrees to your veiw because you happen to be well schooled in the field of psychology is suspect, is wrong. Listen, I would never encourage anyone to partake in any kind of movement that has been proven harmful It is clear and evident that Exodus and similar groups are harmful. Like it or not Rusty, there are some gay men and women who decide to get married, have children, and happy lives. They may have arrangements in their marriage that allows for sexual release with a same sex partner, they may not. Some may use porno of gay sex together when making love to help alleviate any tension that may arise if those particular same sex needs are not met. I have a good friend who is married with two children and they are vey happy and they do just that. They have both talked openly to me about how the wife allows lots of fantasy play so that everyones needs are met. And the reason they are married? Not because they felt pressured, but because they are in love. So once again, not everything is fundamental rusty. I find it funny that you accuse me of recruiting for a movement that is not even related to my own Faith. If you remember correctly, I am not a Christian. In His Service, Paul

      Rusty Morris <rusty66@...> wrote:Live and live?

      fact1) you don not HAVE to marry the opposite sex to have children...ever heard of a suurogate clinic, adoption,or a plain ole turkey baster.

      Fact 2) the exgay movement is the farthest thing from "live and let live" ever created, the harm and destruction it has done is immeasurable...this is suppose to be an ex-exgay club, not a biblical recruitment or exgay apologetic club

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Paul Jackson
      To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:16 PM
      Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves



      Alex,
      Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to judge the motives of others.
      I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my motto.
      Paul
      nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
      gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
      credentials.>>

      I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
      way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
      around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long run.
      -Alex

      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
      > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that it
      > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my PF
      > theory is shot down.
      >
      > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
      > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so we
      > should be careful about assumptions.
      >
      > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages and
      > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is under
      > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
      requirement
      > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
      > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
      > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have any
      > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish ex-
      > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
      celibacy
      > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it is
      > unpopular.
      >
      > - Norm!


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    • Paul Jackson
      Norm, Your observations about marriage, homosexuals, and the attitudes of ?Christian churches were very interesting. I certainly agree with your observation
      Message 2 of 22 , May 5, 2003
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        Norm, Your observations about marriage, homosexuals, and the attitudes of ?Christian churches were very interesting. I certainly agree with your observation that any one who has homosexual feelings should be cautious about getting involved in a heterosexual relationship. It is not wise to do such a thing in light of the fact that so many innocent people could easily be hurt or misled. Your understanding that the option of singleness should be a valuable option for a person who beleives homosexuality to be wrong is well taken. I concur. This position seems to have more integrity than that touted by the ex-gay movement. In His Service, Paul

        Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:Although your message was directed to Alex, I am also responding
        since I initiated the discussion regarding ex-gay leaders marrying.
        My main point was not to necessarily question ex-gays' motives for
        straight marriages, but to ask why singleness does not seem to be as
        well praised.

        As a young ex-gay participant, I was told to be thankful that I
        began my 'healing' early and would have plenty of time in my life to
        pursue a wife & kids. However, marriage was not my motivation. I
        did not feel that it would be sincere to link a relationship with
        my 'healing'. But I received negative reactions whenever I
        mentioned anything about staying single. I perceived an attitude
        that heterosexual marriage is not, technically, the goal of ex-gay
        treatment, marriage is a sign of 'healing' and success.

        IMO, lifelong, singleness, and celibacy are not generally or
        geniunely valued by Christian and non-Christian cultures. Nobody
        talks about being 'happily single'. Singleness is seen as a
        burden. A theology has developed that God does not want people to
        be single. Many who believe same-sex sexual behaviors are immoral
        seem to sympathize that celibacy is too much of a burden for GLBT.
        Therefore, many anti-gay people theorize that God intended for GLBT
        to seek 'healing' so they can become a good husbands/wives.

        Therefore, I don't think it is discounting or belittling to "those
        who wish to pursue other avenues of life" to discuss whether there
        is a marriage pressure for ex-gays. It is legitimate to question
        why marriage seems such an important credential for priminant ex-
        gays. In light of the relatively low success rate of ex-gay
        treatment and the significant risk of 'back-sliding', it would seem
        prudent to me that ex-gays should exercise caution before risking an
        entire family's well-being on the ex-gay experiment. Isn't it
        important to learn and accept oneself as single for a time before
        marriage?

        Norm!




        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Paul Jackson
        <rembrandtjackson@s...> wrote:
        >
        > Alex,
        > Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives
        other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go
        forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of
        the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to
        judge the motives of others.
        > I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of
        the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should
        be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way
        that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and
        belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has
        the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my
        motto.
        > Paul
        > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that
        having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
        > gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
        > credentials.>>
        >
        > I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
        > way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
        > around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long
        run.
        > -Alex
        >
        > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
        wrote:
        > > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that
        it
        > > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my
        PF
        > > theory is shot down.
        > >
        > > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
        > > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so
        we
        > > should be careful about assumptions.
        > >
        > > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages
        and
        > > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is
        under
        > > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
        > requirement
        > > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
        > > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
        > > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have
        any
        > > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish
        ex-
        > > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
        > celibacy
        > > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it
        is
        > > unpopular.
        > >
        > > - Norm!
        >
        >
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        Service.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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