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Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves

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  • Norm
    Although your message was directed to Alex, I am also responding since I initiated the discussion regarding ex-gay leaders marrying. My main point was not to
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
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      Although your message was directed to Alex, I am also responding
      since I initiated the discussion regarding ex-gay leaders marrying.
      My main point was not to necessarily question ex-gays' motives for
      straight marriages, but to ask why singleness does not seem to be as
      well praised.

      As a young ex-gay participant, I was told to be thankful that I
      began my 'healing' early and would have plenty of time in my life to
      pursue a wife & kids. However, marriage was not my motivation. I
      did not feel that it would be sincere to link a relationship with
      my 'healing'. But I received negative reactions whenever I
      mentioned anything about staying single. I perceived an attitude
      that heterosexual marriage is not, technically, the goal of ex-gay
      treatment, marriage is a sign of 'healing' and success.

      IMO, lifelong, singleness, and celibacy are not generally or
      geniunely valued by Christian and non-Christian cultures. Nobody
      talks about being 'happily single'. Singleness is seen as a
      burden. A theology has developed that God does not want people to
      be single. Many who believe same-sex sexual behaviors are immoral
      seem to sympathize that celibacy is too much of a burden for GLBT.
      Therefore, many anti-gay people theorize that God intended for GLBT
      to seek 'healing' so they can become a good husbands/wives.

      Therefore, I don't think it is discounting or belittling to "those
      who wish to pursue other avenues of life" to discuss whether there
      is a marriage pressure for ex-gays. It is legitimate to question
      why marriage seems such an important credential for priminant ex-
      gays. In light of the relatively low success rate of ex-gay
      treatment and the significant risk of 'back-sliding', it would seem
      prudent to me that ex-gays should exercise caution before risking an
      entire family's well-being on the ex-gay experiment. Isn't it
      important to learn and accept oneself as single for a time before
      marriage?

      Norm!




      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Paul Jackson
      <rembrandtjackson@s...> wrote:
      >
      > Alex,
      > Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives
      other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go
      forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of
      the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to
      judge the motives of others.
      > I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of
      the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should
      be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way
      that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and
      belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has
      the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my
      motto.
      > Paul
      > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that
      having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
      > gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
      > credentials.>>
      >
      > I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
      > way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
      > around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long
      run.
      > -Alex
      >
      > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
      wrote:
      > > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that
      it
      > > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my
      PF
      > > theory is shot down.
      > >
      > > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
      > > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so
      we
      > > should be careful about assumptions.
      > >
      > > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages
      and
      > > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is
      under
      > > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
      > requirement
      > > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
      > > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
      > > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have
      any
      > > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish
      ex-
      > > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
      > celibacy
      > > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it
      is
      > > unpopular.
      > >
      > > - Norm!
      >
      >
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rusty Morris
      Live and live? fact1) you don not HAVE to marry the opposite sex to have children...ever heard of a suurogate clinic, adoption,or a plain ole turkey baster.
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
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        Live and live?

        fact1) you don not HAVE to marry the opposite sex to have children...ever heard of a suurogate clinic, adoption,or a plain ole turkey baster.

        Fact 2) the exgay movement is the farthest thing from "live and let live" ever created, the harm and destruction it has done is immeasurable...this is suppose to be an ex-exgay club, not a biblical recruitment or exgay apologetic club

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Paul Jackson
        To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:16 PM
        Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves



        Alex,
        Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to judge the motives of others.
        I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my motto.
        Paul
        nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
        gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
        credentials.>>

        I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
        way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
        around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long run.
        -Alex

        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
        > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that it
        > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my PF
        > theory is shot down.
        >
        > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
        > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so we
        > should be careful about assumptions.
        >
        > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages and
        > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is under
        > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
        requirement
        > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
        > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
        > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have any
        > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish ex-
        > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
        celibacy
        > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it is
        > unpopular.
        >
        > - Norm!


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      • nyguy_1225
        Paul, I am not presuming; it is an all-too-well-known fact that far too often gay people are pressured into getting married in the same way gay people are
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
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          Paul,
          I am not "presuming;" it is an all-too-well-known fact that far too
          often gay people are pressured into getting married in the same way
          gay people are too often pressured into becoming "ex-gay." Who are
          the people who get involved with "ex-gay" ministries and seek to
          change? They're not your average gay man or woman. They're people
          who have been taught and bought into the notion that any and all
          expressions of homosexuality are immoral, sin and a pathology that
          must be overcome. And in buying into this sham they also buy into
          believing that they become more acceptable to themselves, to God and
          the people around them only if they pursue heterosexuality.

          However, we also know that these people don't usually feel that way
          in the long run. This is precisely why "ex-gay" ministries and any
          therapy, for that matter, that would seek to change homosexuals into
          heterosexuals are rejected by nearly all respected, credible medical
          and mental health experts. Having observed the dismal success rate
          and the too often tragic results of these ministries over the past
          25 years, medical and mental health professionals -- and increasing
          numbers of Christian counselors as well -- now readily admit
          that "ex-gay" ministries are trying to force people into a mold that
          doesn't really fit, and the results often lead to depression,
          addiction and sometimes suicide. If you are not aware of this
          reality, you are living on the good ship lollipop.

          I never said people should not be free to pursue this is they want.
          They most certainly may and that's why America is America. I am
          saying, however, that most of the people who bought into this
          travesty came out on the other side to readily admit that it was the
          biggest mistake they ever made in their life.
          -Alex


          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Paul Jackson
          <rembrandtjackson@s...> wrote:
          >
          > Alex,
          > Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives
          other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go
          forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of
          the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to
          judge the motives of others.
          > I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of
          the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should
          be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way
          that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and
          belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has
          the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my
          motto.
          > Paul
          > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that
          having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
          > gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
          > credentials.>>
          >
          > I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
          > way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
          > around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long
          run.
          > -Alex
          >
          > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
          wrote:
          > > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that
          it
          > > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my
          PF
          > > theory is shot down.
          > >
          > > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
          > > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so
          we
          > > should be careful about assumptions.
          > >
          > > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages
          and
          > > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is
          under
          > > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
          > requirement
          > > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
          > > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
          > > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have
          any
          > > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish
          ex-
          > > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
          > celibacy
          > > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it
          is
          > > unpopular.
          > >
          > > - Norm!
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          >
          >
          >
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          Service.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Norm
          Here s another tid-bit on the John Paulk resignation. According to 365gay.com s 04/16/03 posting*: Today a source at the ministry did not deny that FOC s
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
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            Here's another tid-bit on the John Paulk resignation.

            According to 365gay.com's 04/16/03 posting*: "Today a source at the
            ministry did not deny that FOC's money troubles was a large part of
            the reason" [for Paulk's departure]. The article also mentioned
            that Focus was cutting it's spending on programs such as the ex-gay
            program Paulk started, Love Won Out.

            In the end, the economy may do more than any of us in halting the ex-
            gay movement.

            Norm!

            * http://365gay.com/NewsContent/041603focMoney.htm


            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
            wrote:
            > The following was announced today by Focus on the Family.
            > Personally, I think it's a little too coincidental that his
            > resignation comes directly on the heels of the soon-to-be-
            > released "Anything But Straight" by Wayne Besen -- with the now
            > infamous photo of Mr. Paulk running away from a gay bar in
            > Washington on the front cover.
            >
            > =================================================================
            >
            > JOHN PAULK EYES NEW MINISTRY OPPORTUNITY
            > PROMINENT EX-GAY SPOKESMAN LEAVES FOCUS ON THE FAMILY
            >
            > Colorado Springs—John Paulk, whose story about how he overcame
            > homosexuality has inspired millions of Christians worldwide,
            > announced today he will leave Focus on the Family, effective May
            6.
            > He has served since 1998 as manager of the ministry's
            Homosexuality
            > and Gender Department, a position that solidified his standing as
            > one of the ex-gay movement's leading spokesmen. "My time at Focus
            on
            > the Family has been the most rewarding professional and ministry
            > experience of my life," Paulk said. "I will always have a heart
            for
            > men and women struggling with homosexuality, but after working 16
            > years on this contentious issue, it's time for me to pursue other
            > endeavors."
            >
            > Paulk added that while his decision to leave was not an easy one,
            it
            > was also the best one for his family—wife Anne and sons Timmy,
            Alex
            > and Jordan. The Paulks are moving to the Pacific Northwest to be
            > closer to extended family.
            >
            > Dr. James Dobson, founder and president of Focus on the Family,
            > applauded Paulk's courage in putting his family ahead of his
            career—
            > noting it's the same kind of courage he exhibited when he walked
            > away from homosexuality in 1987. "Anyone who has heard John's
            story
            > knows the miracles the Lord has accomplished in his life," Dobson
            > said. "At considerable personal expense (both to him and his
            > family), and in the face of hostile opposition, John and our Love
            > Won Out team have presented the truth in love to thousands of
            > hurting families and individuals across the country. While we're
            sad
            > to see him go, we know God has great plans for him, Anne and the
            > boys in the coming days."
            >
            > Paulk was already a prominent figure when he joined Focus. He and
            > wife Anne, a former lesbian and author of a soon-to-be released
            book
            > Restoring Sexual Identity: Hope for Women Struggling with Same-Sex
            > Attraction (Harvest House), were the centerpieces of a 1998
            > advertising campaign which consisted of full-page ads in
            newspapers
            > like The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal declaring the
            > truth that homosexuality could be overcome. The Paulks also have
            > appeared on the cover of Newsweek and been featured on 60 Minutes,
            > Oprah, Good Morning America and Nightline.
            >
            > Paulk's departure will not affect the future of Love Won Out, the
            > conference he created and took to more than 20 cities in the
            United
            > States. More than 16,000 people have attended Love Won Out events,
            > all-day seminars that feature psychologists, educators and former
            > homosexuals discussing the causes and prevention of homosexuality.
            > The average attendance at these events has grown by 25 percent
            over
            > the past six years even as gay activists have intensified their
            > attempts to disrupt the sessions. Gatherings have been planned for
            > the rest of 2003 and 2004, under the direction of Mike Haley, a
            > former homosexual who helped Paulk create Love Won Out and who has
            > been a key speaker since its inception.
            >
            > Paulk has no doubt lives will continue to be touched through the
            > conferences. "Love Won Out wouldn't be what it is today without
            > Mike," he said. "It makes it easier to step down knowing what an
            > excellent job he and the entire conference staff will continue to
            do
            > in sharing these important truths with those who need to hear
            them."
          • blkluv33@aol.com
            ... You have to understand the premise for encouraging ex-gays (if there be such a thing) to marry. Paul states that it is better to marry than to burn. In
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
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              > Therefore, I don't think it is discounting or belittling to "those
              > who wish to pursue other avenues of life" to discuss whether there
              > is a marriage pressure for ex-gays.

              You have to understand the premise for encouraging ex-gays (if there be such
              a thing) to marry. Paul states that "it is better to marry than to burn." In
              other words, it is better to marry a woman and use her for sex than to burn
              in your lusts.

              I think that was rather selfish of Paul to encourage that behavior, and I
              disagree with him totally. One should marry for LOVE, and not for sex.

              That being said, the presumption is that since gay people enjoy sex, they
              should marry a woman so they can continue to have sex, but in a "righteous"
              way. They are missing the whole point of homosexuality. I told my parents,
              years ago, that my sexuality has very little to do with my sexual behavior.
              The reason I am gay is because I am physically, emotionally, socially and
              romantically attracted to males and not females. All that is before sex even
              comes into the picture.

              So if I were to have a ministry, and I felt that homosexuality was wrong, I
              would encourage celibacy over marriage. Why ruin someone elses life in the
              process?


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • nyguy_1225
              Very interesting tidbit, indeed. So it would appear it was FOTF s money (or the lack thereof) that won out in the end. I still maintain they re bracing
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
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                Very interesting tidbit, indeed. So it would appear it was FOTF's
                money (or the lack thereof) that won out in the end. I still
                maintain they're bracing themselves good for the inevitable barrage
                of bad press they'll have to fend off when the soon-to-be-
                released "Anything But Straight" exposé hits the shelves. As if
                they didn't have enough "black eyes" to have to contend with already
                with their embracing of the "ex-gay" myth. They have to know
                they'll have a much easier time if Paulk is no longer associated
                with them.
                -Alex

                --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                > Here's another tid-bit on the John Paulk resignation.
                >
                > According to 365gay.com's 04/16/03 posting*: "Today a source at
                the
                > ministry did not deny that FOC's money troubles was a large part
                of
                > the reason" [for Paulk's departure]. The article also mentioned
                > that Focus was cutting it's spending on programs such as the ex-
                gay
                > program Paulk started, Love Won Out.
                >
                > In the end, the economy may do more than any of us in halting the
                ex-
                > gay movement.
                >
                > Norm!
                >
                > * http://365gay.com/NewsContent/041603focMoney.htm
                >
                >
                > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > The following was announced today by Focus on the Family.
                > > Personally, I think it's a little too coincidental that his
                > > resignation comes directly on the heels of the soon-to-be-
                > > released "Anything But Straight" by Wayne Besen -- with the now
                > > infamous photo of Mr. Paulk running away from a gay bar in
                > > Washington on the front cover.
                > >
                > > =================================================================
                > >
                > > JOHN PAULK EYES NEW MINISTRY OPPORTUNITY
                > > PROMINENT EX-GAY SPOKESMAN LEAVES FOCUS ON THE FAMILY
                > >
                > > Colorado Springs—John Paulk, whose story about how he overcame
                > > homosexuality has inspired millions of Christians worldwide,
                > > announced today he will leave Focus on the Family, effective May
                > 6.
                > > He has served since 1998 as manager of the ministry's
                > Homosexuality
                > > and Gender Department, a position that solidified his standing
                as
                > > one of the ex-gay movement's leading spokesmen. "My time at
                Focus
                > on
                > > the Family has been the most rewarding professional and ministry
                > > experience of my life," Paulk said. "I will always have a heart
                > for
                > > men and women struggling with homosexuality, but after working
                16
                > > years on this contentious issue, it's time for me to pursue
                other
                > > endeavors."
                > >
                > > Paulk added that while his decision to leave was not an easy
                one,
                > it
                > > was also the best one for his family—wife Anne and sons Timmy,
                > Alex
                > > and Jordan. The Paulks are moving to the Pacific Northwest to
                be
                > > closer to extended family.
                > >
                > > Dr. James Dobson, founder and president of Focus on the Family,
                > > applauded Paulk's courage in putting his family ahead of his
                > career—
                > > noting it's the same kind of courage he exhibited when he walked
                > > away from homosexuality in 1987. "Anyone who has heard John's
                > story
                > > knows the miracles the Lord has accomplished in his life,"
                Dobson
                > > said. "At considerable personal expense (both to him and his
                > > family), and in the face of hostile opposition, John and our
                Love
                > > Won Out team have presented the truth in love to thousands of
                > > hurting families and individuals across the country. While we're
                > sad
                > > to see him go, we know God has great plans for him, Anne and the
                > > boys in the coming days."
                > >
                > > Paulk was already a prominent figure when he joined Focus. He
                and
                > > wife Anne, a former lesbian and author of a soon-to-be released
                > book
                > > Restoring Sexual Identity: Hope for Women Struggling with Same-
                Sex
                > > Attraction (Harvest House), were the centerpieces of a 1998
                > > advertising campaign which consisted of full-page ads in
                > newspapers
                > > like The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal declaring
                the
                > > truth that homosexuality could be overcome. The Paulks also have
                > > appeared on the cover of Newsweek and been featured on 60
                Minutes,
                > > Oprah, Good Morning America and Nightline.
                > >
                > > Paulk's departure will not affect the future of Love Won Out,
                the
                > > conference he created and took to more than 20 cities in the
                > United
                > > States. More than 16,000 people have attended Love Won Out
                events,
                > > all-day seminars that feature psychologists, educators and
                former
                > > homosexuals discussing the causes and prevention of
                homosexuality.
                > > The average attendance at these events has grown by 25 percent
                > over
                > > the past six years even as gay activists have intensified their
                > > attempts to disrupt the sessions. Gatherings have been planned
                for
                > > the rest of 2003 and 2004, under the direction of Mike Haley, a
                > > former homosexual who helped Paulk create Love Won Out and who
                has
                > > been a key speaker since its inception.
                > >
                > > Paulk has no doubt lives will continue to be touched through the
                > > conferences. "Love Won Out wouldn't be what it is today without
                > > Mike," he said. "It makes it easier to step down knowing what an
                > > excellent job he and the entire conference staff will continue
                to
                > do
                > > in sharing these important truths with those who need to hear
                > them."
              • Tryjesus33@aol.com
                Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says everything I believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my life since my desire
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
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                  Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says everything I
                  believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my life since my
                  desire for sex with women was removed (I am a woman) back in 1982. Just
                  because the Lord answered my prayers (James4:2-3) did not necessarily mean
                  that I was instantly "straight"!!

                  I had two more failed heterosexual marriages to go through before I finally
                  saw the light. I am not to be with anyone! And that is O K A Y !!!! All
                  I want is to do His will. Nothing else - not ever. Just to do His will and
                  live the way He wants me to and to witness also.

                  Thank you so very much for what you shared and for the last paragraph!!

                  Love,
                  Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 76 degrees right now.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Rusty Morris
                  I think i am confused...has this changed to an exgay group? r. ... From: Tryjesus33@aol.com To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
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                    I think i am confused...has this changed to an exgay group?
                    r.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Tryjesus33@...
                    To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:59 PM
                    Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves


                    Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says everything I
                    believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my life since my
                    desire for sex with women was removed (I am a woman) back in 1982. Just
                    because the Lord answered my prayers (James4:2-3) did not necessarily mean
                    that I was instantly "straight"!!

                    I had two more failed heterosexual marriages to go through before I finally
                    saw the light. I am not to be with anyone! And that is O K A Y !!!! All
                    I want is to do His will. Nothing else - not ever. Just to do His will and
                    live the way He wants me to and to witness also.

                    Thank you so very much for what you shared and for the last paragraph!!

                    Love,
                    Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 76 degrees right now.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                  • Tryjesus33@aol.com
                    Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this board. I could have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose to truthful. The
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
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                      Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this board. I could
                      have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose to truthful.
                      The truth has set me free. And whom the Son sets free is free indeed! I
                      am speaking just for me. Not for you or anyone else. I know what I was.
                      Jesus knows what I was.

                      He took the SSA because I asked Him to.

                      Happy Easter and God bless everyone in this group. I will stop posting and
                      go back to just reading if that is okay with you all.

                      Love,
                      Barbara Mullin Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 70 degrees right now


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Rusty Morris
                      thats good, because there is not thing as SSA, if you an find a medical diagnosis in any psychological, psychiatric or medical text please show me. as for
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
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                        thats good, because there is not thing as SSA, if you an find a medical diagnosis in any psychological, psychiatric or medical text please show me. as for posting, my comment was because this is called EXEXgayministry and USE to be for the support, advisement and attempted helpful intervention in those whom have become or are being victims of the exgay movement.

                        Not for the recruitment of gay people to the exgay movement.

                        R.





                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Tryjesus33@...
                        To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 1:17 AM
                        Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves


                        Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this board. I could
                        have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose to truthful.
                        The truth has set me free. And whom the Son sets free is free indeed! I
                        am speaking just for me. Not for you or anyone else. I know what I was.
                        Jesus knows what I was.

                        He took the SSA because I asked Him to.

                        Happy Easter and God bless everyone in this group. I will stop posting and
                        go back to just reading if that is okay with you all.

                        Love,
                        Barbara Mullin Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 70 degrees right now


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                      • nyguy_1225
                        Not a chance, my friend. However, as with most internet boards we do have some strange folks who stop by. I never cease to be amazed at why some people who
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Not a chance, my friend. However, as with most internet boards we
                          do have some strange folks who stop by. I never cease to be amazed
                          at why some people who who cling to the "ex-gay" myth would spend so
                          much time posting on a site so vehemently opposed to it --
                          especially when this particular group is comprised mostly of people
                          who have already been there, done that and got the tee shirt! One
                          would think they'd have more constructive things to do with their
                          time. Maybe some people just need a life.
                          -Alex

                          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Rusty Morris"
                          <rusty66@w...> wrote:
                          > I think i am confused...has this changed to an exgay group?
                          > r.
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Tryjesus33@a...
                          > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:59 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's
                          Leader Leaves
                          >
                          >
                          > Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says
                          everything I
                          > believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my
                          life since my
                          > desire for sex with women was removed (I am a woman) back in
                          1982. Just
                          > because the Lord answered my prayers (James4:2-3) did not
                          necessarily mean
                          > that I was instantly "straight"!!
                          >
                          > I had two more failed heterosexual marriages to go through
                          before I finally
                          > saw the light. I am not to be with anyone! And that is O K A
                          Y !!!! All
                          > I want is to do His will. Nothing else - not ever. Just to do
                          His will and
                          > live the way He wants me to and to witness also.
                          >
                          > Thank you so very much for what you shared and for the last
                          paragraph!!
                          >
                          > Love,
                          > Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 76 degrees right
                          now.
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
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                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          Service.
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                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Norm
                          Barbara, although I disagree with your theology on homosexuality, it is interesting to find what we do agree on. There is a marriage pressure among ex-gay and
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Barbara, although I disagree with your theology on homosexuality, it
                            is interesting to find what we do agree on. There is a marriage
                            pressure among ex-gay and Christian communities. Ex-gays, in
                            particular, view hetro-marriage as a significant sign of "healing".

                            This may be too personal to ask, but I'm curious: Did you enter your
                            hetero-marriages solely because you felt pressured to be seen
                            as "healed" of your same-sex attractions? Do Christians or ex-gays
                            react positively to your singleness?

                            Again, when I was in ex-gay treatment, I felt there was a negative
                            stigma associated with "ex-gay"s who did not pursue marriage or get
                            married. The stigma was that single "ex-gay"s were stuck in their
                            gay identity and were unable to move-on toward "healing". In fact,
                            fact Exodus is very concerned about an "ex-gay" subculture
                            developing where "ex-gay"s never fully assimilate to conservative
                            Christian culture and commune only with other "ex-
                            gay" 'strugglers'.

                            - Norm!

                            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Tryjesus33@a... wrote:
                            > Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this
                            board. I could
                            > have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose
                            to truthful.
                            > The truth has set me free. And whom the Son sets free is free
                            indeed! I
                            > am speaking just for me. Not for you or anyone else. I know
                            what I was.
                            > Jesus knows what I was.
                            >
                            > He took the SSA because I asked Him to.
                            >
                            > Happy Easter and God bless everyone in this group. I will stop
                            posting and
                            > go back to just reading if that is okay with you all.
                            >
                            > Love,
                            > Barbara Mullin Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 70 degrees right now
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jy
                            ....some thoughts on what you said Alex. Maybe it s why I went to the transgender groups trying to convert them, or why a former pastor/friend of mine
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ....some thoughts on what you said Alex. Maybe it's why I went to the transgender groups trying to convert them, or why a former pastor/friend of mine basically attacked another friend because of his "gayness" and now is more open and understanding to him. Sometimes, and this is just my opinion of course, I think our strength can lay in the comparisons of ourselves with others, which is no strength at all. Sometimes, it takes a crisis for a rude awakening, I experienced that, and I have seen others change their minds because of their own crisis. I hope that I am making sense, a friend of mine shared that with me and it made a lot of sense.

                              Jackie
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: nyguy_1225
                              To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:37 AM
                              Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves


                              Not a chance, my friend. However, as with most internet boards we
                              do have some strange folks who stop by. I never cease to be amazed
                              at why some people who who cling to the "ex-gay" myth would spend so
                              much time posting on a site so vehemently opposed to it --
                              especially when this particular group is comprised mostly of people
                              who have already been there, done that and got the tee shirt! One
                              would think they'd have more constructive things to do with their
                              time. Maybe some people just need a life.
                              -Alex

                              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Rusty Morris"
                              <rusty66@w...> wrote:
                              > I think i am confused...has this changed to an exgay group?
                              > r.
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Tryjesus33@a...
                              > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:59 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's
                              Leader Leaves
                              >
                              >
                              > Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says
                              everything I
                              > believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my
                              life since my
                              > desire for sex with women was removed (I am a woman) back in
                              1982. Just
                              > because the Lord answered my prayers (James4:2-3) did not
                              necessarily mean
                              > that I was instantly "straight"!!
                              >
                              > I had two more failed heterosexual marriages to go through
                              before I finally
                              > saw the light. I am not to be with anyone! And that is O K A
                              Y !!!! All
                              > I want is to do His will. Nothing else - not ever. Just to do
                              His will and
                              > live the way He wants me to and to witness also.
                              >
                              > Thank you so very much for what you shared and for the last
                              paragraph!!
                              >
                              > Love,
                              > Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 76 degrees right
                              now.
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
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                            • calldon2k
                              ... board. I could ... truthful. ... indeed! Barbara, it is good that you are happy. Yet your theology is a little shaky regarding John 8:31-32,36. ... I
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
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                                --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Tryjesus33@a... wrote:
                                > Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this
                                board. I could
                                > have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose to
                                truthful.
                                > The truth has set me free. And whom the Son sets free is free
                                indeed!

                                Barbara, it is good that you are happy. Yet your theology is a
                                little shaky regarding John 8:31-32,36.

                                >I
                                > am speaking just for me. Not for you or anyone else. I know what
                                I was.
                                > Jesus knows what I was.
                                >
                                > He took the SSA because I asked Him to.

                                Well, Jesus seems to be ignoring millions of other gay folks who have
                                prayed the same prayers that you have prayed!

                                Because of the emotional make-up of the female, women are more open,
                                broader, and less inhibited in their expressions of love, family
                                love, romantic love, etc. There are many stories of heterosexual
                                women who, after many years of spousal abuse or other physical or
                                emotional/verbal abuse, suddenly find themselves in gay
                                relationships. Sometimes they are satisfied with that. In some
                                cases, they "find Jesus" and, like you, pray a prayer,
                                become "convicted" of "sin" or something, and make claims to "leave
                                the homosexual lifestyle" (whatever that is.) Occasionally, they
                                marry a male, promote their "testimony" and consider theirself an "ex-
                                gay" which, obviously, they are not! This kind of story is not
                                uncommon among females. However, it is RARE among males!

                                One of my dearest lady-friends has been single and celebate for
                                almost 30 years. She is heterosexual, was married to an alcoholic
                                and raised her two sons alone. Yet, she does not claim to be
                                delivered from heterosexuality. She just made certain decisions
                                about her life over time.

                                Like I said, I am glad that you say you are happy. The apostle Paul
                                was struck blind at his conversion. I am glad he did not teach THAT
                                as the defining experience for us all. And like I said again, Jesus
                                may have taken away YOUR "SSA" but there are millions of other gay
                                folks who have asked this same Jesus...and he did not do it for them!
                              • Paul Jackson
                                Rusty, Contrary to your idea that anyone who does not think as you, or agrees to your veiw because you happen to be well schooled in the field of psychology is
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 4, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Rusty, Contrary to your idea that anyone who does not think as you, or agrees to your veiw because you happen to be well schooled in the field of psychology is suspect, is wrong. Listen, I would never encourage anyone to partake in any kind of movement that has been proven harmful It is clear and evident that Exodus and similar groups are harmful. Like it or not Rusty, there are some gay men and women who decide to get married, have children, and happy lives. They may have arrangements in their marriage that allows for sexual release with a same sex partner, they may not. Some may use porno of gay sex together when making love to help alleviate any tension that may arise if those particular same sex needs are not met. I have a good friend who is married with two children and they are vey happy and they do just that. They have both talked openly to me about how the wife allows lots of fantasy play so that everyones needs are met. And the reason they are married? Not because they felt pressured, but because they are in love. So once again, not everything is fundamental rusty. I find it funny that you accuse me of recruiting for a movement that is not even related to my own Faith. If you remember correctly, I am not a Christian. In His Service, Paul

                                  Rusty Morris <rusty66@...> wrote:Live and live?

                                  fact1) you don not HAVE to marry the opposite sex to have children...ever heard of a suurogate clinic, adoption,or a plain ole turkey baster.

                                  Fact 2) the exgay movement is the farthest thing from "live and let live" ever created, the harm and destruction it has done is immeasurable...this is suppose to be an ex-exgay club, not a biblical recruitment or exgay apologetic club

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Paul Jackson
                                  To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:16 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves



                                  Alex,
                                  Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to judge the motives of others.
                                  I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my motto.
                                  Paul
                                  nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
                                  gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
                                  credentials.>>

                                  I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
                                  way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
                                  around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long run.
                                  -Alex

                                  --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                                  > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that it
                                  > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my PF
                                  > theory is shot down.
                                  >
                                  > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
                                  > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so we
                                  > should be careful about assumptions.
                                  >
                                  > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages and
                                  > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is under
                                  > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
                                  requirement
                                  > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
                                  > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
                                  > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have any
                                  > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish ex-
                                  > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
                                  celibacy
                                  > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it is
                                  > unpopular.
                                  >
                                  > - Norm!


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                                • Paul Jackson
                                  Norm, Your observations about marriage, homosexuals, and the attitudes of ?Christian churches were very interesting. I certainly agree with your observation
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 5, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Norm, Your observations about marriage, homosexuals, and the attitudes of ?Christian churches were very interesting. I certainly agree with your observation that any one who has homosexual feelings should be cautious about getting involved in a heterosexual relationship. It is not wise to do such a thing in light of the fact that so many innocent people could easily be hurt or misled. Your understanding that the option of singleness should be a valuable option for a person who beleives homosexuality to be wrong is well taken. I concur. This position seems to have more integrity than that touted by the ex-gay movement. In His Service, Paul

                                    Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:Although your message was directed to Alex, I am also responding
                                    since I initiated the discussion regarding ex-gay leaders marrying.
                                    My main point was not to necessarily question ex-gays' motives for
                                    straight marriages, but to ask why singleness does not seem to be as
                                    well praised.

                                    As a young ex-gay participant, I was told to be thankful that I
                                    began my 'healing' early and would have plenty of time in my life to
                                    pursue a wife & kids. However, marriage was not my motivation. I
                                    did not feel that it would be sincere to link a relationship with
                                    my 'healing'. But I received negative reactions whenever I
                                    mentioned anything about staying single. I perceived an attitude
                                    that heterosexual marriage is not, technically, the goal of ex-gay
                                    treatment, marriage is a sign of 'healing' and success.

                                    IMO, lifelong, singleness, and celibacy are not generally or
                                    geniunely valued by Christian and non-Christian cultures. Nobody
                                    talks about being 'happily single'. Singleness is seen as a
                                    burden. A theology has developed that God does not want people to
                                    be single. Many who believe same-sex sexual behaviors are immoral
                                    seem to sympathize that celibacy is too much of a burden for GLBT.
                                    Therefore, many anti-gay people theorize that God intended for GLBT
                                    to seek 'healing' so they can become a good husbands/wives.

                                    Therefore, I don't think it is discounting or belittling to "those
                                    who wish to pursue other avenues of life" to discuss whether there
                                    is a marriage pressure for ex-gays. It is legitimate to question
                                    why marriage seems such an important credential for priminant ex-
                                    gays. In light of the relatively low success rate of ex-gay
                                    treatment and the significant risk of 'back-sliding', it would seem
                                    prudent to me that ex-gays should exercise caution before risking an
                                    entire family's well-being on the ex-gay experiment. Isn't it
                                    important to learn and accept oneself as single for a time before
                                    marriage?

                                    Norm!




                                    --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Paul Jackson
                                    <rembrandtjackson@s...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Alex,
                                    > Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives
                                    other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go
                                    forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of
                                    the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to
                                    judge the motives of others.
                                    > I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of
                                    the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should
                                    be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way
                                    that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and
                                    belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has
                                    the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my
                                    motto.
                                    > Paul
                                    > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that
                                    having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
                                    > gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
                                    > credentials.>>
                                    >
                                    > I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
                                    > way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
                                    > around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long
                                    run.
                                    > -Alex
                                    >
                                    > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that
                                    it
                                    > > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my
                                    PF
                                    > > theory is shot down.
                                    > >
                                    > > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
                                    > > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so
                                    we
                                    > > should be careful about assumptions.
                                    > >
                                    > > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages
                                    and
                                    > > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is
                                    under
                                    > > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
                                    > requirement
                                    > > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
                                    > > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
                                    > > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have
                                    any
                                    > > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish
                                    ex-
                                    > > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
                                    > celibacy
                                    > > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it
                                    is
                                    > > unpopular.
                                    > >
                                    > > - Norm!
                                    >
                                    >
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