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Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves

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  • Paul Jackson
    Alex, Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go forth and
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 16, 2003
      Alex,
      Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to judge the motives of others.
      I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my motto.
      Paul
      nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
      gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
      credentials.>>

      I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
      way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
      around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long run.
      -Alex

      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
      > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that it
      > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my PF
      > theory is shot down.
      >
      > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
      > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so we
      > should be careful about assumptions.
      >
      > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages and
      > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is under
      > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
      requirement
      > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
      > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
      > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have any
      > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish ex-
      > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
      celibacy
      > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it is
      > unpopular.
      >
      > - Norm!


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    • Norm
      Although your message was directed to Alex, I am also responding since I initiated the discussion regarding ex-gay leaders marrying. My main point was not to
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
        Although your message was directed to Alex, I am also responding
        since I initiated the discussion regarding ex-gay leaders marrying.
        My main point was not to necessarily question ex-gays' motives for
        straight marriages, but to ask why singleness does not seem to be as
        well praised.

        As a young ex-gay participant, I was told to be thankful that I
        began my 'healing' early and would have plenty of time in my life to
        pursue a wife & kids. However, marriage was not my motivation. I
        did not feel that it would be sincere to link a relationship with
        my 'healing'. But I received negative reactions whenever I
        mentioned anything about staying single. I perceived an attitude
        that heterosexual marriage is not, technically, the goal of ex-gay
        treatment, marriage is a sign of 'healing' and success.

        IMO, lifelong, singleness, and celibacy are not generally or
        geniunely valued by Christian and non-Christian cultures. Nobody
        talks about being 'happily single'. Singleness is seen as a
        burden. A theology has developed that God does not want people to
        be single. Many who believe same-sex sexual behaviors are immoral
        seem to sympathize that celibacy is too much of a burden for GLBT.
        Therefore, many anti-gay people theorize that God intended for GLBT
        to seek 'healing' so they can become a good husbands/wives.

        Therefore, I don't think it is discounting or belittling to "those
        who wish to pursue other avenues of life" to discuss whether there
        is a marriage pressure for ex-gays. It is legitimate to question
        why marriage seems such an important credential for priminant ex-
        gays. In light of the relatively low success rate of ex-gay
        treatment and the significant risk of 'back-sliding', it would seem
        prudent to me that ex-gays should exercise caution before risking an
        entire family's well-being on the ex-gay experiment. Isn't it
        important to learn and accept oneself as single for a time before
        marriage?

        Norm!




        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Paul Jackson
        <rembrandtjackson@s...> wrote:
        >
        > Alex,
        > Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives
        other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go
        forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of
        the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to
        judge the motives of others.
        > I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of
        the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should
        be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way
        that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and
        belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has
        the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my
        motto.
        > Paul
        > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that
        having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
        > gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
        > credentials.>>
        >
        > I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
        > way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
        > around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long
        run.
        > -Alex
        >
        > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
        wrote:
        > > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that
        it
        > > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my
        PF
        > > theory is shot down.
        > >
        > > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
        > > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so
        we
        > > should be careful about assumptions.
        > >
        > > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages
        and
        > > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is
        under
        > > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
        > requirement
        > > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
        > > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
        > > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have
        any
        > > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish
        ex-
        > > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
        > celibacy
        > > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it
        is
        > > unpopular.
        > >
        > > - Norm!
        >
        >
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        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rusty Morris
        Live and live? fact1) you don not HAVE to marry the opposite sex to have children...ever heard of a suurogate clinic, adoption,or a plain ole turkey baster.
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
          Live and live?

          fact1) you don not HAVE to marry the opposite sex to have children...ever heard of a suurogate clinic, adoption,or a plain ole turkey baster.

          Fact 2) the exgay movement is the farthest thing from "live and let live" ever created, the harm and destruction it has done is immeasurable...this is suppose to be an ex-exgay club, not a biblical recruitment or exgay apologetic club

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Paul Jackson
          To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:16 PM
          Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves



          Alex,
          Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to judge the motives of others.
          I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my motto.
          Paul
          nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
          gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
          credentials.>>

          I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
          way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
          around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long run.
          -Alex

          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
          > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that it
          > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my PF
          > theory is shot down.
          >
          > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
          > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so we
          > should be careful about assumptions.
          >
          > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages and
          > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is under
          > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
          requirement
          > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
          > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
          > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have any
          > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish ex-
          > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
          celibacy
          > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it is
          > unpopular.
          >
          > - Norm!


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • nyguy_1225
          Paul, I am not presuming; it is an all-too-well-known fact that far too often gay people are pressured into getting married in the same way gay people are
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
            Paul,
            I am not "presuming;" it is an all-too-well-known fact that far too
            often gay people are pressured into getting married in the same way
            gay people are too often pressured into becoming "ex-gay." Who are
            the people who get involved with "ex-gay" ministries and seek to
            change? They're not your average gay man or woman. They're people
            who have been taught and bought into the notion that any and all
            expressions of homosexuality are immoral, sin and a pathology that
            must be overcome. And in buying into this sham they also buy into
            believing that they become more acceptable to themselves, to God and
            the people around them only if they pursue heterosexuality.

            However, we also know that these people don't usually feel that way
            in the long run. This is precisely why "ex-gay" ministries and any
            therapy, for that matter, that would seek to change homosexuals into
            heterosexuals are rejected by nearly all respected, credible medical
            and mental health experts. Having observed the dismal success rate
            and the too often tragic results of these ministries over the past
            25 years, medical and mental health professionals -- and increasing
            numbers of Christian counselors as well -- now readily admit
            that "ex-gay" ministries are trying to force people into a mold that
            doesn't really fit, and the results often lead to depression,
            addiction and sometimes suicide. If you are not aware of this
            reality, you are living on the good ship lollipop.

            I never said people should not be free to pursue this is they want.
            They most certainly may and that's why America is America. I am
            saying, however, that most of the people who bought into this
            travesty came out on the other side to readily admit that it was the
            biggest mistake they ever made in their life.
            -Alex


            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Paul Jackson
            <rembrandtjackson@s...> wrote:
            >
            > Alex,
            > Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives
            other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go
            forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of
            the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to
            judge the motives of others.
            > I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of
            the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should
            be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way
            that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and
            belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has
            the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my
            motto.
            > Paul
            > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that
            having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
            > gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
            > credentials.>>
            >
            > I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
            > way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
            > around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long
            run.
            > -Alex
            >
            > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
            wrote:
            > > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that
            it
            > > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my
            PF
            > > theory is shot down.
            > >
            > > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
            > > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so
            we
            > > should be careful about assumptions.
            > >
            > > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages
            and
            > > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is
            under
            > > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
            > requirement
            > > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
            > > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
            > > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have
            any
            > > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish
            ex-
            > > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
            > celibacy
            > > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it
            is
            > > unpopular.
            > >
            > > - Norm!
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Norm
            Here s another tid-bit on the John Paulk resignation. According to 365gay.com s 04/16/03 posting*: Today a source at the ministry did not deny that FOC s
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
              Here's another tid-bit on the John Paulk resignation.

              According to 365gay.com's 04/16/03 posting*: "Today a source at the
              ministry did not deny that FOC's money troubles was a large part of
              the reason" [for Paulk's departure]. The article also mentioned
              that Focus was cutting it's spending on programs such as the ex-gay
              program Paulk started, Love Won Out.

              In the end, the economy may do more than any of us in halting the ex-
              gay movement.

              Norm!

              * http://365gay.com/NewsContent/041603focMoney.htm


              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
              wrote:
              > The following was announced today by Focus on the Family.
              > Personally, I think it's a little too coincidental that his
              > resignation comes directly on the heels of the soon-to-be-
              > released "Anything But Straight" by Wayne Besen -- with the now
              > infamous photo of Mr. Paulk running away from a gay bar in
              > Washington on the front cover.
              >
              > =================================================================
              >
              > JOHN PAULK EYES NEW MINISTRY OPPORTUNITY
              > PROMINENT EX-GAY SPOKESMAN LEAVES FOCUS ON THE FAMILY
              >
              > Colorado Springs—John Paulk, whose story about how he overcame
              > homosexuality has inspired millions of Christians worldwide,
              > announced today he will leave Focus on the Family, effective May
              6.
              > He has served since 1998 as manager of the ministry's
              Homosexuality
              > and Gender Department, a position that solidified his standing as
              > one of the ex-gay movement's leading spokesmen. "My time at Focus
              on
              > the Family has been the most rewarding professional and ministry
              > experience of my life," Paulk said. "I will always have a heart
              for
              > men and women struggling with homosexuality, but after working 16
              > years on this contentious issue, it's time for me to pursue other
              > endeavors."
              >
              > Paulk added that while his decision to leave was not an easy one,
              it
              > was also the best one for his family—wife Anne and sons Timmy,
              Alex
              > and Jordan. The Paulks are moving to the Pacific Northwest to be
              > closer to extended family.
              >
              > Dr. James Dobson, founder and president of Focus on the Family,
              > applauded Paulk's courage in putting his family ahead of his
              career—
              > noting it's the same kind of courage he exhibited when he walked
              > away from homosexuality in 1987. "Anyone who has heard John's
              story
              > knows the miracles the Lord has accomplished in his life," Dobson
              > said. "At considerable personal expense (both to him and his
              > family), and in the face of hostile opposition, John and our Love
              > Won Out team have presented the truth in love to thousands of
              > hurting families and individuals across the country. While we're
              sad
              > to see him go, we know God has great plans for him, Anne and the
              > boys in the coming days."
              >
              > Paulk was already a prominent figure when he joined Focus. He and
              > wife Anne, a former lesbian and author of a soon-to-be released
              book
              > Restoring Sexual Identity: Hope for Women Struggling with Same-Sex
              > Attraction (Harvest House), were the centerpieces of a 1998
              > advertising campaign which consisted of full-page ads in
              newspapers
              > like The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal declaring the
              > truth that homosexuality could be overcome. The Paulks also have
              > appeared on the cover of Newsweek and been featured on 60 Minutes,
              > Oprah, Good Morning America and Nightline.
              >
              > Paulk's departure will not affect the future of Love Won Out, the
              > conference he created and took to more than 20 cities in the
              United
              > States. More than 16,000 people have attended Love Won Out events,
              > all-day seminars that feature psychologists, educators and former
              > homosexuals discussing the causes and prevention of homosexuality.
              > The average attendance at these events has grown by 25 percent
              over
              > the past six years even as gay activists have intensified their
              > attempts to disrupt the sessions. Gatherings have been planned for
              > the rest of 2003 and 2004, under the direction of Mike Haley, a
              > former homosexual who helped Paulk create Love Won Out and who has
              > been a key speaker since its inception.
              >
              > Paulk has no doubt lives will continue to be touched through the
              > conferences. "Love Won Out wouldn't be what it is today without
              > Mike," he said. "It makes it easier to step down knowing what an
              > excellent job he and the entire conference staff will continue to
              do
              > in sharing these important truths with those who need to hear
              them."
            • blkluv33@aol.com
              ... You have to understand the premise for encouraging ex-gays (if there be such a thing) to marry. Paul states that it is better to marry than to burn. In
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
                > Therefore, I don't think it is discounting or belittling to "those
                > who wish to pursue other avenues of life" to discuss whether there
                > is a marriage pressure for ex-gays.

                You have to understand the premise for encouraging ex-gays (if there be such
                a thing) to marry. Paul states that "it is better to marry than to burn." In
                other words, it is better to marry a woman and use her for sex than to burn
                in your lusts.

                I think that was rather selfish of Paul to encourage that behavior, and I
                disagree with him totally. One should marry for LOVE, and not for sex.

                That being said, the presumption is that since gay people enjoy sex, they
                should marry a woman so they can continue to have sex, but in a "righteous"
                way. They are missing the whole point of homosexuality. I told my parents,
                years ago, that my sexuality has very little to do with my sexual behavior.
                The reason I am gay is because I am physically, emotionally, socially and
                romantically attracted to males and not females. All that is before sex even
                comes into the picture.

                So if I were to have a ministry, and I felt that homosexuality was wrong, I
                would encourage celibacy over marriage. Why ruin someone elses life in the
                process?


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • nyguy_1225
                Very interesting tidbit, indeed. So it would appear it was FOTF s money (or the lack thereof) that won out in the end. I still maintain they re bracing
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
                  Very interesting tidbit, indeed. So it would appear it was FOTF's
                  money (or the lack thereof) that won out in the end. I still
                  maintain they're bracing themselves good for the inevitable barrage
                  of bad press they'll have to fend off when the soon-to-be-
                  released "Anything But Straight" exposé hits the shelves. As if
                  they didn't have enough "black eyes" to have to contend with already
                  with their embracing of the "ex-gay" myth. They have to know
                  they'll have a much easier time if Paulk is no longer associated
                  with them.
                  -Alex

                  --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                  > Here's another tid-bit on the John Paulk resignation.
                  >
                  > According to 365gay.com's 04/16/03 posting*: "Today a source at
                  the
                  > ministry did not deny that FOC's money troubles was a large part
                  of
                  > the reason" [for Paulk's departure]. The article also mentioned
                  > that Focus was cutting it's spending on programs such as the ex-
                  gay
                  > program Paulk started, Love Won Out.
                  >
                  > In the end, the economy may do more than any of us in halting the
                  ex-
                  > gay movement.
                  >
                  > Norm!
                  >
                  > * http://365gay.com/NewsContent/041603focMoney.htm
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > The following was announced today by Focus on the Family.
                  > > Personally, I think it's a little too coincidental that his
                  > > resignation comes directly on the heels of the soon-to-be-
                  > > released "Anything But Straight" by Wayne Besen -- with the now
                  > > infamous photo of Mr. Paulk running away from a gay bar in
                  > > Washington on the front cover.
                  > >
                  > > =================================================================
                  > >
                  > > JOHN PAULK EYES NEW MINISTRY OPPORTUNITY
                  > > PROMINENT EX-GAY SPOKESMAN LEAVES FOCUS ON THE FAMILY
                  > >
                  > > Colorado Springs—John Paulk, whose story about how he overcame
                  > > homosexuality has inspired millions of Christians worldwide,
                  > > announced today he will leave Focus on the Family, effective May
                  > 6.
                  > > He has served since 1998 as manager of the ministry's
                  > Homosexuality
                  > > and Gender Department, a position that solidified his standing
                  as
                  > > one of the ex-gay movement's leading spokesmen. "My time at
                  Focus
                  > on
                  > > the Family has been the most rewarding professional and ministry
                  > > experience of my life," Paulk said. "I will always have a heart
                  > for
                  > > men and women struggling with homosexuality, but after working
                  16
                  > > years on this contentious issue, it's time for me to pursue
                  other
                  > > endeavors."
                  > >
                  > > Paulk added that while his decision to leave was not an easy
                  one,
                  > it
                  > > was also the best one for his family—wife Anne and sons Timmy,
                  > Alex
                  > > and Jordan. The Paulks are moving to the Pacific Northwest to
                  be
                  > > closer to extended family.
                  > >
                  > > Dr. James Dobson, founder and president of Focus on the Family,
                  > > applauded Paulk's courage in putting his family ahead of his
                  > career—
                  > > noting it's the same kind of courage he exhibited when he walked
                  > > away from homosexuality in 1987. "Anyone who has heard John's
                  > story
                  > > knows the miracles the Lord has accomplished in his life,"
                  Dobson
                  > > said. "At considerable personal expense (both to him and his
                  > > family), and in the face of hostile opposition, John and our
                  Love
                  > > Won Out team have presented the truth in love to thousands of
                  > > hurting families and individuals across the country. While we're
                  > sad
                  > > to see him go, we know God has great plans for him, Anne and the
                  > > boys in the coming days."
                  > >
                  > > Paulk was already a prominent figure when he joined Focus. He
                  and
                  > > wife Anne, a former lesbian and author of a soon-to-be released
                  > book
                  > > Restoring Sexual Identity: Hope for Women Struggling with Same-
                  Sex
                  > > Attraction (Harvest House), were the centerpieces of a 1998
                  > > advertising campaign which consisted of full-page ads in
                  > newspapers
                  > > like The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal declaring
                  the
                  > > truth that homosexuality could be overcome. The Paulks also have
                  > > appeared on the cover of Newsweek and been featured on 60
                  Minutes,
                  > > Oprah, Good Morning America and Nightline.
                  > >
                  > > Paulk's departure will not affect the future of Love Won Out,
                  the
                  > > conference he created and took to more than 20 cities in the
                  > United
                  > > States. More than 16,000 people have attended Love Won Out
                  events,
                  > > all-day seminars that feature psychologists, educators and
                  former
                  > > homosexuals discussing the causes and prevention of
                  homosexuality.
                  > > The average attendance at these events has grown by 25 percent
                  > over
                  > > the past six years even as gay activists have intensified their
                  > > attempts to disrupt the sessions. Gatherings have been planned
                  for
                  > > the rest of 2003 and 2004, under the direction of Mike Haley, a
                  > > former homosexual who helped Paulk create Love Won Out and who
                  has
                  > > been a key speaker since its inception.
                  > >
                  > > Paulk has no doubt lives will continue to be touched through the
                  > > conferences. "Love Won Out wouldn't be what it is today without
                  > > Mike," he said. "It makes it easier to step down knowing what an
                  > > excellent job he and the entire conference staff will continue
                  to
                  > do
                  > > in sharing these important truths with those who need to hear
                  > them."
                • Tryjesus33@aol.com
                  Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says everything I believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my life since my desire
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
                    Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says everything I
                    believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my life since my
                    desire for sex with women was removed (I am a woman) back in 1982. Just
                    because the Lord answered my prayers (James4:2-3) did not necessarily mean
                    that I was instantly "straight"!!

                    I had two more failed heterosexual marriages to go through before I finally
                    saw the light. I am not to be with anyone! And that is O K A Y !!!! All
                    I want is to do His will. Nothing else - not ever. Just to do His will and
                    live the way He wants me to and to witness also.

                    Thank you so very much for what you shared and for the last paragraph!!

                    Love,
                    Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 76 degrees right now.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Rusty Morris
                    I think i am confused...has this changed to an exgay group? r. ... From: Tryjesus33@aol.com To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
                      I think i am confused...has this changed to an exgay group?
                      r.

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Tryjesus33@...
                      To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:59 PM
                      Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves


                      Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says everything I
                      believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my life since my
                      desire for sex with women was removed (I am a woman) back in 1982. Just
                      because the Lord answered my prayers (James4:2-3) did not necessarily mean
                      that I was instantly "straight"!!

                      I had two more failed heterosexual marriages to go through before I finally
                      saw the light. I am not to be with anyone! And that is O K A Y !!!! All
                      I want is to do His will. Nothing else - not ever. Just to do His will and
                      live the way He wants me to and to witness also.

                      Thank you so very much for what you shared and for the last paragraph!!

                      Love,
                      Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 76 degrees right now.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tryjesus33@aol.com
                      Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this board. I could have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose to truthful. The
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 17, 2003
                        Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this board. I could
                        have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose to truthful.
                        The truth has set me free. And whom the Son sets free is free indeed! I
                        am speaking just for me. Not for you or anyone else. I know what I was.
                        Jesus knows what I was.

                        He took the SSA because I asked Him to.

                        Happy Easter and God bless everyone in this group. I will stop posting and
                        go back to just reading if that is okay with you all.

                        Love,
                        Barbara Mullin Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 70 degrees right now


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Rusty Morris
                        thats good, because there is not thing as SSA, if you an find a medical diagnosis in any psychological, psychiatric or medical text please show me. as for
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
                          thats good, because there is not thing as SSA, if you an find a medical diagnosis in any psychological, psychiatric or medical text please show me. as for posting, my comment was because this is called EXEXgayministry and USE to be for the support, advisement and attempted helpful intervention in those whom have become or are being victims of the exgay movement.

                          Not for the recruitment of gay people to the exgay movement.

                          R.





                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Tryjesus33@...
                          To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 1:17 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves


                          Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this board. I could
                          have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose to truthful.
                          The truth has set me free. And whom the Son sets free is free indeed! I
                          am speaking just for me. Not for you or anyone else. I know what I was.
                          Jesus knows what I was.

                          He took the SSA because I asked Him to.

                          Happy Easter and God bless everyone in this group. I will stop posting and
                          go back to just reading if that is okay with you all.

                          Love,
                          Barbara Mullin Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 70 degrees right now


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                        • nyguy_1225
                          Not a chance, my friend. However, as with most internet boards we do have some strange folks who stop by. I never cease to be amazed at why some people who
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
                            Not a chance, my friend. However, as with most internet boards we
                            do have some strange folks who stop by. I never cease to be amazed
                            at why some people who who cling to the "ex-gay" myth would spend so
                            much time posting on a site so vehemently opposed to it --
                            especially when this particular group is comprised mostly of people
                            who have already been there, done that and got the tee shirt! One
                            would think they'd have more constructive things to do with their
                            time. Maybe some people just need a life.
                            -Alex

                            --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Rusty Morris"
                            <rusty66@w...> wrote:
                            > I think i am confused...has this changed to an exgay group?
                            > r.
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Tryjesus33@a...
                            > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:59 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's
                            Leader Leaves
                            >
                            >
                            > Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says
                            everything I
                            > believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my
                            life since my
                            > desire for sex with women was removed (I am a woman) back in
                            1982. Just
                            > because the Lord answered my prayers (James4:2-3) did not
                            necessarily mean
                            > that I was instantly "straight"!!
                            >
                            > I had two more failed heterosexual marriages to go through
                            before I finally
                            > saw the light. I am not to be with anyone! And that is O K A
                            Y !!!! All
                            > I want is to do His will. Nothing else - not ever. Just to do
                            His will and
                            > live the way He wants me to and to witness also.
                            >
                            > Thank you so very much for what you shared and for the last
                            paragraph!!
                            >
                            > Love,
                            > Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 76 degrees right
                            now.
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Norm
                            Barbara, although I disagree with your theology on homosexuality, it is interesting to find what we do agree on. There is a marriage pressure among ex-gay and
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
                              Barbara, although I disagree with your theology on homosexuality, it
                              is interesting to find what we do agree on. There is a marriage
                              pressure among ex-gay and Christian communities. Ex-gays, in
                              particular, view hetro-marriage as a significant sign of "healing".

                              This may be too personal to ask, but I'm curious: Did you enter your
                              hetero-marriages solely because you felt pressured to be seen
                              as "healed" of your same-sex attractions? Do Christians or ex-gays
                              react positively to your singleness?

                              Again, when I was in ex-gay treatment, I felt there was a negative
                              stigma associated with "ex-gay"s who did not pursue marriage or get
                              married. The stigma was that single "ex-gay"s were stuck in their
                              gay identity and were unable to move-on toward "healing". In fact,
                              fact Exodus is very concerned about an "ex-gay" subculture
                              developing where "ex-gay"s never fully assimilate to conservative
                              Christian culture and commune only with other "ex-
                              gay" 'strugglers'.

                              - Norm!

                              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Tryjesus33@a... wrote:
                              > Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this
                              board. I could
                              > have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose
                              to truthful.
                              > The truth has set me free. And whom the Son sets free is free
                              indeed! I
                              > am speaking just for me. Not for you or anyone else. I know
                              what I was.
                              > Jesus knows what I was.
                              >
                              > He took the SSA because I asked Him to.
                              >
                              > Happy Easter and God bless everyone in this group. I will stop
                              posting and
                              > go back to just reading if that is okay with you all.
                              >
                              > Love,
                              > Barbara Mullin Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 70 degrees right now
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • jy
                              ....some thoughts on what you said Alex. Maybe it s why I went to the transgender groups trying to convert them, or why a former pastor/friend of mine
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
                                ....some thoughts on what you said Alex. Maybe it's why I went to the transgender groups trying to convert them, or why a former pastor/friend of mine basically attacked another friend because of his "gayness" and now is more open and understanding to him. Sometimes, and this is just my opinion of course, I think our strength can lay in the comparisons of ourselves with others, which is no strength at all. Sometimes, it takes a crisis for a rude awakening, I experienced that, and I have seen others change their minds because of their own crisis. I hope that I am making sense, a friend of mine shared that with me and it made a lot of sense.

                                Jackie
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: nyguy_1225
                                To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:37 AM
                                Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves


                                Not a chance, my friend. However, as with most internet boards we
                                do have some strange folks who stop by. I never cease to be amazed
                                at why some people who who cling to the "ex-gay" myth would spend so
                                much time posting on a site so vehemently opposed to it --
                                especially when this particular group is comprised mostly of people
                                who have already been there, done that and got the tee shirt! One
                                would think they'd have more constructive things to do with their
                                time. Maybe some people just need a life.
                                -Alex

                                --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Rusty Morris"
                                <rusty66@w...> wrote:
                                > I think i am confused...has this changed to an exgay group?
                                > r.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Tryjesus33@a...
                                > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:59 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's
                                Leader Leaves
                                >
                                >
                                > Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!! Your last paragraph says
                                everything I
                                > believe so plainly. That is what I have chosen to do in my
                                life since my
                                > desire for sex with women was removed (I am a woman) back in
                                1982. Just
                                > because the Lord answered my prayers (James4:2-3) did not
                                necessarily mean
                                > that I was instantly "straight"!!
                                >
                                > I had two more failed heterosexual marriages to go through
                                before I finally
                                > saw the light. I am not to be with anyone! And that is O K A
                                Y !!!! All
                                > I want is to do His will. Nothing else - not ever. Just to do
                                His will and
                                > live the way He wants me to and to witness also.
                                >
                                > Thank you so very much for what you shared and for the last
                                paragraph!!
                                >
                                > Love,
                                > Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 76 degrees right
                                now.
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
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                                Service.
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                              • calldon2k
                                ... board. I could ... truthful. ... indeed! Barbara, it is good that you are happy. Yet your theology is a little shaky regarding John 8:31-32,36. ... I
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 18, 2003
                                  --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Tryjesus33@a... wrote:
                                  > Well, Rusty66, I guess I should learn to never post on this
                                  board. I could
                                  > have said that I am back in the sin of homosexuality, but choose to
                                  truthful.
                                  > The truth has set me free. And whom the Son sets free is free
                                  indeed!

                                  Barbara, it is good that you are happy. Yet your theology is a
                                  little shaky regarding John 8:31-32,36.

                                  >I
                                  > am speaking just for me. Not for you or anyone else. I know what
                                  I was.
                                  > Jesus knows what I was.
                                  >
                                  > He took the SSA because I asked Him to.

                                  Well, Jesus seems to be ignoring millions of other gay folks who have
                                  prayed the same prayers that you have prayed!

                                  Because of the emotional make-up of the female, women are more open,
                                  broader, and less inhibited in their expressions of love, family
                                  love, romantic love, etc. There are many stories of heterosexual
                                  women who, after many years of spousal abuse or other physical or
                                  emotional/verbal abuse, suddenly find themselves in gay
                                  relationships. Sometimes they are satisfied with that. In some
                                  cases, they "find Jesus" and, like you, pray a prayer,
                                  become "convicted" of "sin" or something, and make claims to "leave
                                  the homosexual lifestyle" (whatever that is.) Occasionally, they
                                  marry a male, promote their "testimony" and consider theirself an "ex-
                                  gay" which, obviously, they are not! This kind of story is not
                                  uncommon among females. However, it is RARE among males!

                                  One of my dearest lady-friends has been single and celebate for
                                  almost 30 years. She is heterosexual, was married to an alcoholic
                                  and raised her two sons alone. Yet, she does not claim to be
                                  delivered from heterosexuality. She just made certain decisions
                                  about her life over time.

                                  Like I said, I am glad that you say you are happy. The apostle Paul
                                  was struck blind at his conversion. I am glad he did not teach THAT
                                  as the defining experience for us all. And like I said again, Jesus
                                  may have taken away YOUR "SSA" but there are millions of other gay
                                  folks who have asked this same Jesus...and he did not do it for them!
                                • Paul Jackson
                                  Rusty, Contrary to your idea that anyone who does not think as you, or agrees to your veiw because you happen to be well schooled in the field of psychology is
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 4, 2003
                                    Rusty, Contrary to your idea that anyone who does not think as you, or agrees to your veiw because you happen to be well schooled in the field of psychology is suspect, is wrong. Listen, I would never encourage anyone to partake in any kind of movement that has been proven harmful It is clear and evident that Exodus and similar groups are harmful. Like it or not Rusty, there are some gay men and women who decide to get married, have children, and happy lives. They may have arrangements in their marriage that allows for sexual release with a same sex partner, they may not. Some may use porno of gay sex together when making love to help alleviate any tension that may arise if those particular same sex needs are not met. I have a good friend who is married with two children and they are vey happy and they do just that. They have both talked openly to me about how the wife allows lots of fantasy play so that everyones needs are met. And the reason they are married? Not because they felt pressured, but because they are in love. So once again, not everything is fundamental rusty. I find it funny that you accuse me of recruiting for a movement that is not even related to my own Faith. If you remember correctly, I am not a Christian. In His Service, Paul

                                    Rusty Morris <rusty66@...> wrote:Live and live?

                                    fact1) you don not HAVE to marry the opposite sex to have children...ever heard of a suurogate clinic, adoption,or a plain ole turkey baster.

                                    Fact 2) the exgay movement is the farthest thing from "live and let live" ever created, the harm and destruction it has done is immeasurable...this is suppose to be an ex-exgay club, not a biblical recruitment or exgay apologetic club

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Paul Jackson
                                    To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:16 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: The Portland Fellowship's Leader Leaves



                                    Alex,
                                    Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to judge the motives of others.
                                    I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my motto.
                                    Paul
                                    nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
                                    gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
                                    credentials.>>

                                    I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
                                    way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
                                    around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long run.
                                    -Alex

                                    --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                                    > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that it
                                    > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my PF
                                    > theory is shot down.
                                    >
                                    > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
                                    > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so we
                                    > should be careful about assumptions.
                                    >
                                    > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages and
                                    > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is under
                                    > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
                                    requirement
                                    > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
                                    > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
                                    > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have any
                                    > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish ex-
                                    > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
                                    celibacy
                                    > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it is
                                    > unpopular.
                                    >
                                    > - Norm!


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                                  • Paul Jackson
                                    Norm, Your observations about marriage, homosexuals, and the attitudes of ?Christian churches were very interesting. I certainly agree with your observation
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 5, 2003
                                      Norm, Your observations about marriage, homosexuals, and the attitudes of ?Christian churches were very interesting. I certainly agree with your observation that any one who has homosexual feelings should be cautious about getting involved in a heterosexual relationship. It is not wise to do such a thing in light of the fact that so many innocent people could easily be hurt or misled. Your understanding that the option of singleness should be a valuable option for a person who beleives homosexuality to be wrong is well taken. I concur. This position seems to have more integrity than that touted by the ex-gay movement. In His Service, Paul

                                      Norm <nojam75@...> wrote:Although your message was directed to Alex, I am also responding
                                      since I initiated the discussion regarding ex-gay leaders marrying.
                                      My main point was not to necessarily question ex-gays' motives for
                                      straight marriages, but to ask why singleness does not seem to be as
                                      well praised.

                                      As a young ex-gay participant, I was told to be thankful that I
                                      began my 'healing' early and would have plenty of time in my life to
                                      pursue a wife & kids. However, marriage was not my motivation. I
                                      did not feel that it would be sincere to link a relationship with
                                      my 'healing'. But I received negative reactions whenever I
                                      mentioned anything about staying single. I perceived an attitude
                                      that heterosexual marriage is not, technically, the goal of ex-gay
                                      treatment, marriage is a sign of 'healing' and success.

                                      IMO, lifelong, singleness, and celibacy are not generally or
                                      geniunely valued by Christian and non-Christian cultures. Nobody
                                      talks about being 'happily single'. Singleness is seen as a
                                      burden. A theology has developed that God does not want people to
                                      be single. Many who believe same-sex sexual behaviors are immoral
                                      seem to sympathize that celibacy is too much of a burden for GLBT.
                                      Therefore, many anti-gay people theorize that God intended for GLBT
                                      to seek 'healing' so they can become a good husbands/wives.

                                      Therefore, I don't think it is discounting or belittling to "those
                                      who wish to pursue other avenues of life" to discuss whether there
                                      is a marriage pressure for ex-gays. It is legitimate to question
                                      why marriage seems such an important credential for priminant ex-
                                      gays. In light of the relatively low success rate of ex-gay
                                      treatment and the significant risk of 'back-sliding', it would seem
                                      prudent to me that ex-gays should exercise caution before risking an
                                      entire family's well-being on the ex-gay experiment. Isn't it
                                      important to learn and accept oneself as single for a time before
                                      marriage?

                                      Norm!




                                      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Paul Jackson
                                      <rembrandtjackson@s...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Alex,
                                      > Why do you presume that people marry and have children for motives
                                      other than wanting to have a family and follow the injunction to go
                                      forth and multiply? While I dissagree with some of the tactics of
                                      the ex-gay movement, I do not think that it is good for anyone to
                                      judge the motives of others.
                                      > I also beleive that if these souls truly wish to marry a member of
                                      the opposite sex and have children, then by all means, they should
                                      be allowed. I am growing more and more uncomfortable with the way
                                      that many gay people seem to think it is proper to discount and
                                      belittle those who wish to pursue other avenues of life. No man has
                                      the right to infringe on the will of another. Live and let be is my
                                      motto.
                                      > Paul
                                      > nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<<It seems that
                                      having the 'wife and kids' is a requirement of ex-
                                      > gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
                                      > credentials.>>
                                      >
                                      > I don't know if it's so much of a "requirement" as much as it's a
                                      > way to say, "Now I am more acceptable to myself and to the people
                                      > around me." Sadly, they don't usually feel that way in the long
                                      run.
                                      > -Alex
                                      >
                                      > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > > I re-read Focus on the Family's press release and realized that
                                      it
                                      > > said Paulk was NOT going to continue in ex-gay ministry. So my
                                      PF
                                      > > theory is shot down.
                                      > >
                                      > > Phil is a kind man. It's sad that his family may be adversely
                                      > > effected. Again, we don't know what the exact problem was, so
                                      we
                                      > > should be careful about assumptions.
                                      > >
                                      > > But I'm disturbed when ex-gay leaders quickly build marriages
                                      and
                                      > > families as testaments of faith that their homosexuality 'is
                                      under
                                      > > control'. It seems that having the 'wife and kids' is a
                                      > requirement
                                      > > of ex-gay leadership that they proudly include in their "ex-gay"
                                      > > credentials. Although their spouses may have some choice in the
                                      > > matter of marrying an ex-gay, their kids certainly do not have
                                      any
                                      > > choice in participating in the ex-gay experiment. I just wish
                                      ex-
                                      > > gays would not put so much emphasis on marriage. Life-long
                                      > celibacy
                                      > > is rarely discussed in the ex-gay movement, probably because it
                                      is
                                      > > unpopular.
                                      > >
                                      > > - Norm!
                                      >
                                      >
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