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www.AnythingButStraight.com

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  • Norm
    There s a new website about the ex-gay movement. www.anythingbutstraight.com is the website for the upcoming Wayne R. Besen book. The website features a
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 15, 2003
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      There's a new website about the "ex-gay" movement.
      www.anythingbutstraight.com is the website for the upcoming Wayne R.
      Besen book. The website features a great chronology of some of the
      notrious ex-gay scandals.

      - Norm! (nojam75@...)
    • Brian Chase
      The author is a buddy of mine and I ve read an early proof of the book. It s excellent. For those who don t know, Wayne Besen is the guy who busted John Paulk
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 16, 2003
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        The author is a buddy of mine and I've read an early proof of the book.
        It's excellent.

        For those who don't know, Wayne Besen is the guy who busted John Paulk in
        Mr. P's.






        >From: "Norm" <nojam75@...>
        >Reply-To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
        >To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] www.AnythingButStraight.com
        >Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 07:02:23 -0000
        >
        >There's a new website about the "ex-gay" movement.
        >www.anythingbutstraight.com is the website for the upcoming Wayne R.
        >Besen book. The website features a great chronology of some of the
        >notrious ex-gay scandals.
        >
        >- Norm! (nojam75@...)
        >


        _________________________________________________________________
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      • nyguy_1225
        It s an interesting web site and as anyone who posts on this board would know I m all for exposing the ex-gay myth as the dangerous and too often fatal fraud
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 16, 2003
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          It's an interesting web site and as anyone who posts on this board
          would know I'm all for exposing the "ex-gay" myth as the dangerous
          and too often fatal fraud that it is. But I must say I'm also
          somewhat concerned about exposing the myth by throwing out the baby
          (i.e. Christian faith) with the bath water. Besen rightly
          acknowledges on his site that Jeremy Marks, for example, the founder
          of Courage, London's first "ex-gay" ministry, after nearly 15 years
          of watching people struggle in vain to "change" their orientations
          renounced Exodus' methods by saying they were failing (and had
          failed!) in their efforts to change peoples' sexual orientation.
          But unfortunately Besen says nothing about the fact that Jeremy and
          his Courage ministry are still going strong today stronger than
          ever!) now that the ministry has changed its focus and provides
          realistic support for Christian gay people. But without any
          knowledge of the other half of the story what are those who have
          been hurt and disillusioned by the "ex-gay" myth to conclude? That
          their faith was useless and a fraud as well?

          I, like others, have heard the heart cry of those who have lost
          hope. I've seen people become seriously disillusioned. Many have
          felt exceedingly depressed and hopeless, others have embraced a
          liberal "anything-goes" type of pro-gay theology, adopting dubious
          interpretations of Scripture (in my opinion), and worse still, far
          more have left the Church altogether. We know the response of
          Christian psychotherapists and pastors is often: "Get rid of this
          disgusting homosexual habit and you'll be okay." And then not able
          to "get rid" of their immutable sexual orientation no matter how
          long or hard they try, Christian gay people then turn to secular
          therapists or liberal religionists who say: "Get rid of this
          oppressive god-stuff and you'll be okay." Christian gay people must
          have a more realistic alternative than either of these two routes.

          -Alex

          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
          > There's a new website about the "ex-gay" movement.
          > www.anythingbutstraight.com is the website for the upcoming Wayne
          R.
          > Besen book. The website features a great chronology of some of
          the
          > notrious ex-gay scandals.
          >
          > - Norm! (nojam75@y...)
        • Tryjesus33@aol.com
          Hi Alex - I reserved a copy of the book - I just want to see once and for all where this guy is coming from!!! I remember the controversy we had on this
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 16, 2003
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            Hi Alex - I reserved a copy of the book - I just want to see once and for all
            where this guy is coming from!!! I remember the controversy we had on this
            board a few months ago - just at the mention of his name!

            It reminds me of the confusion one can get into when one hears of a straight
            male who has sex change and becomes a woman and then gets into the gay life
            and becomes a Lesbian. Go figure!! That is how I feel about the term
            "Ex-Ex-Gay"!!

            All I know is that Jesus got me out of the homosexual life style a long time
            ago and I praise His name and only His name for that. No human being could
            have done it - just like no human being could have relieved my alcoholism.
            It is not complicated!!
            I cannot envision any reason on Earth or in Heaven why I would ever go back!!

            Love you,
            Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 72 degrees

            2 Corinthians 4: Verse 13: "It is written" (Psalm 119: Verse 10):
            "I believed, therefore I have spoken. With that same spirit of FAITH we also
            believe and therefore speak". Amen!


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • nyguy_1225
            Barbara, I do not recall any controvery on this board ever over this man or his work, such as you infer. But more to the point, as far as your testimony is
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 16, 2003
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              Barbara, I do not recall any controvery on this board ever over this
              man or his work, such as you infer. But more to the point, as far
              as your "testimony" is concerned, though I appreciate your sentiment
              I, like many others, still maintain there is very wide range of
              experience between one who is or has been involved in homosexual
              activity and one who is indeed homosexual. Orientation must not be
              confused with behavior. Heterosexual individuals may in certain
              circumstances engage in genital homosexual acts, e.g. in a single-
              sex social environment like a prison, the navy, or a boarding
              school. Heterosexual individuals may also engage in homosexual
              activity -- and even relationships in situations where there has
              been severe emotional wounding. Some of the very same circumstances
              I might add that cause some to get ensnared in alcoholism and other
              compulsive behaviors, such as you have described and personally
              experienced. Similarly homosexual individuals, under certain kinds
              of pressure, may marry and have children.

              I have no intention of getting into a verbal volleyball match with
              you on this issue. You can proclaim your "freedom from
              homosexuality" till the cows come home. But as Paul advises in
              concluding his discourse on the "weak" and the "strong" in and
              around Romans 14, each Christian should be fully convinced in his or
              her own mind when it comes to the rightness of one's own lifestyle.
              Each individual is responsible for his or her own conscience before
              the Lord. I'm happy you're happy. Now you need to give others the
              space and the due respect to do the same.

              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Tryjesus33@a... wrote:
              > Hi Alex - I reserved a copy of the book - I just want to see once
              and for all
              > where this guy is coming from!!! I remember the controversy we
              had on this
              > board a few months ago - just at the mention of his name!
              >
              > It reminds me of the confusion one can get into when one hears of
              a straight
              > male who has sex change and becomes a woman and then gets into the
              gay life
              > and becomes a Lesbian. Go figure!! That is how I feel about the
              term
              > "Ex-Ex-Gay"!!
              >
              > All I know is that Jesus got me out of the homosexual life style a
              long time
              > ago and I praise His name and only His name for that. No human
              being could
              > have done it - just like no human being could have relieved my
              alcoholism.
              > It is not complicated!!
              > I cannot envision any reason on Earth or in Heaven why I would
              ever go back!!
              >
              > Love you,
              > Barbara Mullin in Beautiful Jacksonville, FL 72 degrees
              >
              > 2 Corinthians 4: Verse 13: "It is written" (Psalm 119: Verse
              10):
              > "I believed, therefore I have spoken. With that same spirit of
              FAITH we also
              > believe and therefore speak". Amen!
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tryjesus33@aol.com
              Excuse me???????????????????? Did I strike a nerve? Alan - Help!! Barbara [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 16, 2003
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                Excuse me????????????????????

                Did I strike a nerve?


                Alan - Help!!


                Barbara


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Norm
                Alex, The website does acknowledge that Jeremy Marks Courage ministry is still operating and lists Courage on the resources page of the website. I think you
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 16, 2003
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                  Alex,

                  The website does acknowledge that Jeremy Marks' Courage ministry is
                  still operating and lists Courage on the resources page of the
                  website. I think you are only refering to the Courage citation on
                  the website's scandals page.

                  Jeremy Marks' Courage does have a unique viewpoint on ex-gay
                  ministries. Although he considers ex-gay ministries to
                  be "unbiblical", he still lists ex-gay ministries as a referal for
                  those who are too "intimidated" by pro-gay groups and find the
                  Church too "hostile". I'm not sure that is the most helpful way of
                  helping those who are uncomfortable or intimidated.

                  - Norm! (nojam75@...)




                  --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > It's an interesting web site and as anyone who posts on this board
                  > would know I'm all for exposing the "ex-gay" myth as the dangerous
                  > and too often fatal fraud that it is. But I must say I'm also
                  > somewhat concerned about exposing the myth by throwing out the
                  baby
                  > (i.e. Christian faith) with the bath water. Besen rightly
                  > acknowledges on his site that Jeremy Marks, for example, the
                  founder
                  > of Courage, London's first "ex-gay" ministry, after nearly 15
                  years
                  > of watching people struggle in vain to "change" their orientations
                  > renounced Exodus' methods by saying they were failing (and had
                  > failed!) in their efforts to change peoples' sexual orientation.
                  > But unfortunately Besen says nothing about the fact that Jeremy
                  and
                  > his Courage ministry are still going strong today stronger than
                  > ever!) now that the ministry has changed its focus and provides
                  > realistic support for Christian gay people. But without any
                  > knowledge of the other half of the story what are those who have
                  > been hurt and disillusioned by the "ex-gay" myth to conclude?
                  That
                  > their faith was useless and a fraud as well?
                  >
                  > I, like others, have heard the heart cry of those who have lost
                  > hope. I've seen people become seriously disillusioned. Many have
                  > felt exceedingly depressed and hopeless, others have embraced a
                  > liberal "anything-goes" type of pro-gay theology, adopting dubious
                  > interpretations of Scripture (in my opinion), and worse still, far
                  > more have left the Church altogether. We know the response of
                  > Christian psychotherapists and pastors is often: "Get rid of this
                  > disgusting homosexual habit and you'll be okay." And then not
                  able
                  > to "get rid" of their immutable sexual orientation no matter how
                  > long or hard they try, Christian gay people then turn to secular
                  > therapists or liberal religionists who say: "Get rid of this
                  > oppressive god-stuff and you'll be okay." Christian gay people
                  must
                  > have a more realistic alternative than either of these two
                  routes.
                  >
                  > -Alex
                  >
                  > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > > There's a new website about the "ex-gay" movement.
                  > > www.anythingbutstraight.com is the website for the upcoming
                  Wayne
                  > R.
                  > > Besen book. The website features a great chronology of some of
                  > the
                  > > notrious ex-gay scandals.
                  > >
                  > > - Norm! (nojam75@y...)
                • nyguy_1225
                  Norm, thanks for the correction. I must have missed that as I perused the site, which does incidentally contain some interesting info. I m just speculating
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 16, 2003
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                    Norm, thanks for the correction. I must have missed that as I
                    perused the site, which does incidentally contain some interesting
                    info. I'm just speculating here but I would think Jeremy's point in
                    mentioning "ex-gay" ministries would be: "We don't at all agree with
                    the "ex-gay" philosophies any longer as we have found them to be
                    both unbiblical and unfruitful. But if that's what floats your boat
                    (after all no one should have to violate their own conscience)
                    here's how to reach them." Let's not forget that for almost 15
                    years Courage was known as being Exodus-based. As such, people
                    looking for an Exodus-based ministry might visit his site without
                    knowning that they've completely changed their focus. Personally, I
                    think he's just operating with integrity which is more than I can
                    say for some of the others.

                    -Alex

                    --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                    > Alex,
                    >
                    > The website does acknowledge that Jeremy Marks' Courage ministry
                    is
                    > still operating and lists Courage on the resources page of the
                    > website. I think you are only refering to the Courage citation on
                    > the website's scandals page.
                    >
                    > Jeremy Marks' Courage does have a unique viewpoint on ex-gay
                    > ministries. Although he considers ex-gay ministries to
                    > be "unbiblical", he still lists ex-gay ministries as a referal for
                    > those who are too "intimidated" by pro-gay groups and find the
                    > Church too "hostile". I'm not sure that is the most helpful way
                    of
                    > helping those who are uncomfortable or intimidated.
                    >
                    > - Norm! (nojam75@y...)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > It's an interesting web site and as anyone who posts on this
                    board
                    > > would know I'm all for exposing the "ex-gay" myth as the
                    dangerous
                    > > and too often fatal fraud that it is. But I must say I'm also
                    > > somewhat concerned about exposing the myth by throwing out the
                    > baby
                    > > (i.e. Christian faith) with the bath water. Besen rightly
                    > > acknowledges on his site that Jeremy Marks, for example, the
                    > founder
                    > > of Courage, London's first "ex-gay" ministry, after nearly 15
                    > years
                    > > of watching people struggle in vain to "change" their
                    orientations
                    > > renounced Exodus' methods by saying they were failing (and had
                    > > failed!) in their efforts to change peoples' sexual
                    orientation.
                    > > But unfortunately Besen says nothing about the fact that Jeremy
                    > and
                    > > his Courage ministry are still going strong today stronger than
                    > > ever!) now that the ministry has changed its focus and provides
                    > > realistic support for Christian gay people. But without any
                    > > knowledge of the other half of the story what are those who have
                    > > been hurt and disillusioned by the "ex-gay" myth to conclude?
                    > That
                    > > their faith was useless and a fraud as well?
                    > >
                    > > I, like others, have heard the heart cry of those who have lost
                    > > hope. I've seen people become seriously disillusioned. Many
                    have
                    > > felt exceedingly depressed and hopeless, others have embraced a
                    > > liberal "anything-goes" type of pro-gay theology, adopting
                    dubious
                    > > interpretations of Scripture (in my opinion), and worse still,
                    far
                    > > more have left the Church altogether. We know the response of
                    > > Christian psychotherapists and pastors is often: "Get rid of
                    this
                    > > disgusting homosexual habit and you'll be okay." And then not
                    > able
                    > > to "get rid" of their immutable sexual orientation no matter how
                    > > long or hard they try, Christian gay people then turn to secular
                    > > therapists or liberal religionists who say: "Get rid of this
                    > > oppressive god-stuff and you'll be okay." Christian gay people
                    > must
                    > > have a more realistic alternative than either of these two
                    > routes.
                    > >
                    > > -Alex
                    > >
                    > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > > There's a new website about the "ex-gay" movement.
                    > > > www.anythingbutstraight.com is the website for the upcoming
                    > Wayne
                    > > R.
                    > > > Besen book. The website features a great chronology of some
                    of
                    > > the
                    > > > notrious ex-gay scandals.
                    > > >
                    > > > - Norm! (nojam75@y...)
                  • Brian Chase
                    Tryjesus33 sez: “Did I strike a nerve?” Well, condescending and rude messages will do that sometimes. Homosexuality is nothing like alcoholism, and
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 17, 2003
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                      Tryjesus33 sez:

                      �Did I strike a nerve?�

                      Well, condescending and rude messages will do that sometimes. Homosexuality
                      is nothing like alcoholism, and comparing those two things as if they were
                      both equally �problems� to be �solved� is fantastically rude. It�s also
                      presumptuous to ascribe your personal experiences to the universe. All
                      available objective data indicates that gay people cannot change our
                      attraction (though I leave open the possibility that some people have more
                      fluid orientations -- such people are very few and far between).

                      �Many have felt exceedingly depressed and hopeless, others have embraced a
                      liberal "anything-goes" type of pro-gay theology, adopting dubious
                      interpretations of Scripture (in my opinion), and worse still, far more have
                      left the Church altogether�

                      I hope you allow for people to both be Christian and not believe that the
                      Bible is 100% inspired and accurate. Many (if not most) Christians have
                      long abandoned the idea that the Bible is perfect. This does not make one
                      less of a Christian. Indeed, there is a good argument that a slavish
                      devotion to the Bible is a form of idolatry that attempts to cram the
                      limitless into the limited.

                      Wayne Besen is Jewish, so I�m pretty sure he has no feelings one way or
                      another about the Christian faith of gay people. He doesn�t care if people
                      leave the church or start going in droves -- all he cares about is how
                      ex-gay programs lie and harm.

                      Wayne is not someone to lead gay people to faith and let them understand
                      that homosexuality and Christianity are not incompatible. That�s for
                      others, like many of the good people on this list.



                      _________________________________________________________________
                    • Norm
                      It is too bad most ex-gay ministries are unwilling to operate with such integrity. Can you imagine if an ex-gay ministry acknowledged and referred
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 17, 2003
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                        It is too bad most "ex-gay" ministries are unwilling to operate with
                        such integrity. Can you imagine if an "ex-gay" ministry
                        acknowledged and referred individuals to gay-positive
                        organizations! Unfortunately, empowering people to follow their own
                        conscience does not seem to be a major goal of "ex-gay" ministries.

                        Of course a similar argument could be made of gay-positive
                        organizations that are unwilling to acknowledge "ex-gay"
                        ministries.

                        - Norm!


                        --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Norm, thanks for the correction. I must have missed that as I
                        > perused the site, which does incidentally contain some interesting
                        > info. I'm just speculating here but I would think Jeremy's point
                        in
                        > mentioning "ex-gay" ministries would be: "We don't at all agree
                        with
                        > the "ex-gay" philosophies any longer as we have found them to be
                        > both unbiblical and unfruitful. But if that's what floats your
                        boat
                        > (after all no one should have to violate their own conscience)
                        > here's how to reach them." Let's not forget that for almost 15
                        > years Courage was known as being Exodus-based. As such, people
                        > looking for an Exodus-based ministry might visit his site without
                        > knowning that they've completely changed their focus. Personally,
                        I
                        > think he's just operating with integrity which is more than I can
                        > say for some of the others.
                        >
                        > -Alex
                        >
                        > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > > Alex,
                        > >
                        > > The website does acknowledge that Jeremy Marks' Courage ministry
                        > is
                        > > still operating and lists Courage on the resources page of the
                        > > website. I think you are only refering to the Courage citation
                        on
                        > > the website's scandals page.
                        > >
                        > > Jeremy Marks' Courage does have a unique viewpoint on ex-gay
                        > > ministries. Although he considers ex-gay ministries to
                        > > be "unbiblical", he still lists ex-gay ministries as a referal
                        for
                        > > those who are too "intimidated" by pro-gay groups and find the
                        > > Church too "hostile". I'm not sure that is the most helpful way
                        > of
                        > > helping those who are uncomfortable or intimidated.
                        > >
                        > > - Norm! (nojam75@y...)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
                        <no_reply@y...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > It's an interesting web site and as anyone who posts on this
                        > board
                        > > > would know I'm all for exposing the "ex-gay" myth as the
                        > dangerous
                        > > > and too often fatal fraud that it is. But I must say I'm also
                        > > > somewhat concerned about exposing the myth by throwing out the
                        > > baby
                        > > > (i.e. Christian faith) with the bath water. Besen rightly
                        > > > acknowledges on his site that Jeremy Marks, for example, the
                        > > founder
                        > > > of Courage, London's first "ex-gay" ministry, after nearly 15
                        > > years
                        > > > of watching people struggle in vain to "change" their
                        > orientations
                        > > > renounced Exodus' methods by saying they were failing (and had
                        > > > failed!) in their efforts to change peoples' sexual
                        > orientation.
                        > > > But unfortunately Besen says nothing about the fact that
                        Jeremy
                        > > and
                        > > > his Courage ministry are still going strong today stronger
                        than
                        > > > ever!) now that the ministry has changed its focus and
                        provides
                        > > > realistic support for Christian gay people. But without any
                        > > > knowledge of the other half of the story what are those who
                        have
                        > > > been hurt and disillusioned by the "ex-gay" myth to conclude?
                        > > That
                        > > > their faith was useless and a fraud as well?
                        > > >
                        > > > I, like others, have heard the heart cry of those who have
                        lost
                        > > > hope. I've seen people become seriously disillusioned. Many
                        > have
                        > > > felt exceedingly depressed and hopeless, others have embraced
                        a
                        > > > liberal "anything-goes" type of pro-gay theology, adopting
                        > dubious
                        > > > interpretations of Scripture (in my opinion), and worse still,
                        > far
                        > > > more have left the Church altogether. We know the response of
                        > > > Christian psychotherapists and pastors is often: "Get rid of
                        > this
                        > > > disgusting homosexual habit and you'll be okay." And then not
                        > > able
                        > > > to "get rid" of their immutable sexual orientation no matter
                        how
                        > > > long or hard they try, Christian gay people then turn to
                        secular
                        > > > therapists or liberal religionists who say: "Get rid of this
                        > > > oppressive god-stuff and you'll be okay." Christian gay
                        people
                        > > must
                        > > > have a more realistic alternative than either of these two
                        > > routes.
                        > > >
                        > > > -Alex
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Norm" <nojam75@y...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > > > There's a new website about the "ex-gay" movement.
                        > > > > www.anythingbutstraight.com is the website for the upcoming
                        > > Wayne
                        > > > R.
                        > > > > Besen book. The website features a great chronology of some
                        > of
                        > > > the
                        > > > > notrious ex-gay scandals.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > - Norm! (nojam75@y...)
                      • nyguy_1225
                        YOU WROTE: I hope you allow for people to both be Christian and not believe that the Bible is 100% inspired and accurate. Many (if not most) Christians have
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 18, 2003
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                          YOU WROTE: "I hope you allow for people to both be Christian and not
                          believe that the Bible is 100% inspired and accurate. Many (if not
                          most) Christians have long abandoned the idea that the Bible is
                          perfect. This does not make one less of a Christian."

                          MY REPLY: I'm not certain that your query was directed at me since
                          you replied to two people with some very divergent views in your one
                          post. However, if it was directed to me, let me try to clarify for
                          you what I do believe.

                          First, I would like to say that I believe Christianity is richer,
                          fuller, wider and deeper than any one person or group's expression
                          of it and therefore in the final analysis only God can made a
                          dertmination as to who is and who is not a Christian. Secondly, I
                          would like to clear up the misconception that if one believes the
                          Bible is inspired one must also believe we should simply apply
                          literal and/or wooden interpretations to any law or portion of
                          Scripture. Jesus never did such a foolish thing and neither should
                          we. He looked at and spoke about the original purpose of it. The
                          radical consequences which resulted from Jesus looking at the
                          Sabbath in this way are clear in all four Gospels and would be a
                          good illustration of this point. He flagrantly disregarded the
                          onerous rabbinical interpretations of what Sabbath observance
                          required, on the grounds that the institution was intended to be a
                          blessing and not a burden (Mark 2:27). The application of the same
                          interpretive principles to Leviticus 18:21 and 19:4 -- the verses
                          antigay Christians love to quote to clobber gay Christians -- might
                          similarly lead to more compassionate conclusions regarding
                          homosexuality.

                          Thirdly, there are some basic principles that I believe should be
                          observed by any interpreter of Scripture. The Bible is a divinely
                          inspired book (2 Tim. 3:16) and therefore should be reverently
                          approached. Perhaps the reader should hear what was said to Moses
                          as he stood before the burning bush: "Put off your shoes from your
                          feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground"
                          (Exodus 3:5). We should be careful to reverence the divine
                          character of Scripture. However, the Bible also has a genuinely
                          human element since God used ordinary people to write the
                          Scriptures. Recognition must be given to the human elements
                          utilized by the Holy Spirit in giving us God's Word. To miss the
                          human element is as much a mistake as to miss the divine element.

                          In addition, since the primary aim of the interpreter is to discover
                          the original meaning of the author who wrote the passage under
                          consideration, careful attention must also be given to the literary
                          form of a passage in determining its meaning. Careful attention
                          must also be given to the historical situation of a portion of
                          Scripture. In short, we should ask: (1) Who was the writer and to
                          whom was he writing? (2) What was the cultural-historical setting of
                          the writer? (3) What was the meaning of the words in the writer's
                          day? (4) What was the intended meaning of the author and why was he
                          saying it? (5) What should this mean to me in my situation today?

                          I believe the Bible is far too rich to throw out the baby with the
                          bath water because of what some fundamentalists have done to it.
                          One can believe the Bible is inspired without checking his or her
                          brain at the door.



                          --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chase"
                          <lawyerbrianc@h...> wrote:
                          > Tryjesus33 sez:
                          >
                          > "Did I strike a nerve?"
                          >
                          > Well, condescending and rude messages will do that sometimes.
                          Homosexuality
                          > is nothing like alcoholism, and comparing those two things as if
                          they were
                          > both equally "problems" to be "solved" is fantastically rude.
                          It's also
                          > presumptuous to ascribe your personal experiences to the
                          universe. All
                          > available objective data indicates that gay people cannot change
                          our
                          > attraction (though I leave open the possibility that some people
                          have more
                          > fluid orientations -- such people are very few and far between).
                          >
                          > "Many have felt exceedingly depressed and hopeless, others have
                          embraced a
                          > liberal "anything-goes" type of pro-gay theology, adopting dubious
                          > interpretations of Scripture (in my opinion), and worse still, far
                          more have
                          > left the Church altogether"
                          >
                          > I hope you allow for people to both be Christian and not believe
                          that the
                          > Bible is 100% inspired and accurate. Many (if not most)
                          Christians have
                          > long abandoned the idea that the Bible is perfect. This does not
                          make one
                          > less of a Christian. Indeed, there is a good argument that a
                          slavish
                          > devotion to the Bible is a form of idolatry that attempts to cram
                          the
                          > limitless into the limited.
                          >
                          > Wayne Besen is Jewish, so I'm pretty sure he has no feelings one
                          way or
                          > another about the Christian faith of gay people. He doesn't care
                          if people
                          > leave the church or start going in droves -- all he cares about is
                          how
                          > ex-gay programs lie and harm.
                          >
                          > Wayne is not someone to lead gay people to faith and let them
                          understand
                          > that homosexuality and Christianity are not incompatible. That's
                          for
                          > others, like many of the good people on this list.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _________________________________________________________________
                        • Brian Chase
                          Hey NYguy, I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I am very much in agreement with most of what you wrote about interpretation. My approach is a bit
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 18, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hey NYguy,

                            I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I am very much in agreement
                            with most of what you wrote about interpretation. My approach is a bit
                            different than yours and probably a bit more ham-handed. I believe that
                            parts of the Bible are inspired, and parts are culturally imposed gibberish
                            -- and I believe that God gave us brains and hearts so we can try to tell
                            the difference.

                            My only big quibble is with the following:

                            "The Bible is a divinely inspired book (2 Tim. 3:16) and therefore should be
                            reverently approached."

                            Although I believe that portions of the Bible are inspired, I don't believe
                            the passage you cite supports that assertion or the claim that the entire
                            Bible is inspired. First of all, the verse was written before the canon was
                            compiled -- so how could it refer to the Bible when the Bible didn't exist
                            yet? At most, it could refer to the Old Testament.

                            Secondly, the verse can also be translated as "all scripture that is
                            inspired is worthy of teaching" rather than "all scripture is inspired."
                            The first translation makes a heck of a lot more sense since there is no way
                            that a letter written at the time could have been referring to itself as
                            scripture. The passage probably means that we should study inspired
                            scripture, but I don't see it as a claim that the entire Bible is inspired.

                            Finally, the argument that �the Bible is inspired by God because the Bible
                            says so� is circular reasoning. If I write a book and insert the claim that
                            the book is inspired by God, that would prove absolutely nothing. Whoever
                            wrote II Timothy (probably a student of Paul) was in no position to make an
                            authoritative claim that all scripture was inspired.

                            Because the Bible contains passages and teachings that are immoral and
                            barbaric by any reasonably sane standard, I have to conclude that
                            significant parts of the Bible were the product of the authors rather than
                            the product of God. I find this approach much more satisfying than trying
                            to figure out how certain repulsive and/or stupid passages of the Bible
                            somehow advance God's will. Unless God truly approves of flogging slaves,
                            executing gays and has a hang-up about loaning money for interest -- I think
                            we can safely say that the Bible contains some mistakes.

                            Brian.



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                          • nyguy_1225
                            Hey Brian, You view them as mistakes and I view them as things that were in some way appropriate to their historical context and setting. The important
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 18, 2003
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                              Hey Brian,
                              You view them as "mistakes" and I view them as things that were in
                              some way appropriate to their historical context and setting. The
                              important thing is we don't have to understand it all and we don't
                              have to have the answers to all the questions and we certainly don't
                              have to agree to demonstrate the love of Jesus. We can accept
                              living with our differences because we know that the one who created
                              us already knows that we won't agree on lots of important things.
                              The Bible also tells us that we will see things down here through a
                              dark glass.
                              -Alex

                              --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chase"
                              <lawyerbrianc@h...> wrote:
                              > Hey NYguy,
                              >
                              > I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I am very much in
                              agreement
                              > with most of what you wrote about interpretation. My approach is
                              a bit
                              > different than yours and probably a bit more ham-handed. I
                              believe that
                              > parts of the Bible are inspired, and parts are culturally imposed
                              gibberish
                              > -- and I believe that God gave us brains and hearts so we can try
                              to tell
                              > the difference.
                              >
                              > My only big quibble is with the following:
                              >
                              > "The Bible is a divinely inspired book (2 Tim. 3:16) and therefore
                              should be
                              > reverently approached."
                              >
                              > Although I believe that portions of the Bible are inspired, I
                              don't believe
                              > the passage you cite supports that assertion or the claim that the
                              entire
                              > Bible is inspired. First of all, the verse was written before the
                              canon was
                              > compiled -- so how could it refer to the Bible when the Bible
                              didn't exist
                              > yet? At most, it could refer to the Old Testament.
                              >
                              > Secondly, the verse can also be translated as "all scripture that
                              is
                              > inspired is worthy of teaching" rather than "all scripture is
                              inspired."
                              > The first translation makes a heck of a lot more sense since there
                              is no way
                              > that a letter written at the time could have been referring to
                              itself as
                              > scripture. The passage probably means that we should study
                              inspired
                              > scripture, but I don't see it as a claim that the entire Bible is
                              inspired.
                              >
                              > Finally, the argument that "the Bible is inspired by God because
                              the Bible
                              > says so" is circular reasoning. If I write a book and insert the
                              claim that
                              > the book is inspired by God, that would prove absolutely nothing.
                              Whoever
                              > wrote II Timothy (probably a student of Paul) was in no position
                              to make an
                              > authoritative claim that all scripture was inspired.
                              >
                              > Because the Bible contains passages and teachings that are immoral
                              and
                              > barbaric by any reasonably sane standard, I have to conclude that
                              > significant parts of the Bible were the product of the authors
                              rather than
                              > the product of God. I find this approach much more satisfying
                              than trying
                              > to figure out how certain repulsive and/or stupid passages of the
                              Bible
                              > somehow advance God's will. Unless God truly approves of flogging
                              slaves,
                              > executing gays and has a hang-up about loaning money for interest -
                              - I think
                              > we can safely say that the Bible contains some mistakes.
                              >
                              > Brian.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _________________________________________________________________
                              > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
                              > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
                            • Brian Chase
                              Alex, That is one of the most beautifully put things I ve ever read. Brian ... _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 18, 2003
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                                Alex,

                                That is one of the most beautifully put things I've ever read.

                                Brian



                                >From: nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                >Reply-To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: www.AnythingButStraight.com
                                >Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:36:44 -0000
                                >
                                >Hey Brian,
                                >You view them as "mistakes" and I view them as things that were in
                                >some way appropriate to their historical context and setting. The
                                >important thing is we don't have to understand it all and we don't
                                >have to have the answers to all the questions and we certainly don't
                                >have to agree to demonstrate the love of Jesus. We can accept
                                >living with our differences because we know that the one who created
                                >us already knows that we won't agree on lots of important things.
                                >The Bible also tells us that we will see things down here through a
                                >dark glass.
                                >-Alex
                                >
                                >--- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chase"
                                ><lawyerbrianc@h...> wrote:
                                > > Hey NYguy,
                                > >
                                > > I really appreciate your thoughtful response. I am very much in
                                >agreement
                                > > with most of what you wrote about interpretation. My approach is
                                >a bit
                                > > different than yours and probably a bit more ham-handed. I
                                >believe that
                                > > parts of the Bible are inspired, and parts are culturally imposed
                                >gibberish
                                > > -- and I believe that God gave us brains and hearts so we can try
                                >to tell
                                > > the difference.
                                > >
                                > > My only big quibble is with the following:
                                > >
                                > > "The Bible is a divinely inspired book (2 Tim. 3:16) and therefore
                                >should be
                                > > reverently approached."
                                > >
                                > > Although I believe that portions of the Bible are inspired, I
                                >don't believe
                                > > the passage you cite supports that assertion or the claim that the
                                >entire
                                > > Bible is inspired. First of all, the verse was written before the
                                >canon was
                                > > compiled -- so how could it refer to the Bible when the Bible
                                >didn't exist
                                > > yet? At most, it could refer to the Old Testament.
                                > >
                                > > Secondly, the verse can also be translated as "all scripture that
                                >is
                                > > inspired is worthy of teaching" rather than "all scripture is
                                >inspired."
                                > > The first translation makes a heck of a lot more sense since there
                                >is no way
                                > > that a letter written at the time could have been referring to
                                >itself as
                                > > scripture. The passage probably means that we should study
                                >inspired
                                > > scripture, but I don't see it as a claim that the entire Bible is
                                >inspired.
                                > >
                                > > Finally, the argument that "the Bible is inspired by God because
                                >the Bible
                                > > says so" is circular reasoning. If I write a book and insert the
                                >claim that
                                > > the book is inspired by God, that would prove absolutely nothing.
                                >Whoever
                                > > wrote II Timothy (probably a student of Paul) was in no position
                                >to make an
                                > > authoritative claim that all scripture was inspired.
                                > >
                                > > Because the Bible contains passages and teachings that are immoral
                                >and
                                > > barbaric by any reasonably sane standard, I have to conclude that
                                > > significant parts of the Bible were the product of the authors
                                >rather than
                                > > the product of God. I find this approach much more satisfying
                                >than trying
                                > > to figure out how certain repulsive and/or stupid passages of the
                                >Bible
                                > > somehow advance God's will. Unless God truly approves of flogging
                                >slaves,
                                > > executing gays and has a hang-up about loaning money for interest -
                                >- I think
                                > > we can safely say that the Bible contains some mistakes.
                                > >
                                > > Brian.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > _________________________________________________________________
                                > > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
                                > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


                                _________________________________________________________________
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                              • calldon2k
                                ... book. ... Paulk in ... My only concern is how he portrays Gary Cooper. It has been known for some while that Gary was NOT a founder of Exodus. The fact
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 18, 2003
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                                  --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Chase"
                                  <lawyerbrianc@h...> wrote:
                                  > The author is a buddy of mine and I've read an early proof of the
                                  book.
                                  > It's excellent.
                                  >
                                  > For those who don't know, Wayne Besen is the guy who busted John
                                  Paulk in
                                  > Mr. P's.

                                  My only concern is how he portrays Gary Cooper. It has been known
                                  for some while that Gary was NOT a founder of Exodus. The fact is
                                  Gary was a volunteer in the ministry at that time, and he picked up
                                  conference guests at the airport who were arriving for the original
                                  conference! So much for Gary's role as 'co-founder' of Exodus.

                                  I hope Wayne corrects that error on his web page and before the book
                                  goes to print.

                                  D*
                                • calldon2k
                                  ... long time ... being could ... alcoholism. ... go back!! I am always amused at people who use generalizations to prove a point. I am also amused when
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Mar 18, 2003
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                                    --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, Tryjesus33@a... wrote:
                                    > All I know is that Jesus got me out of the homosexual life style a
                                    long time
                                    > ago and I praise His name and only His name for that. No human
                                    being could
                                    > have done it - just like no human being could have relieved my
                                    alcoholism.
                                    > It is not complicated!!
                                    > I cannot envision any reason on Earth or in Heaven why I would ever
                                    go back!!

                                    I am always amused at people who use generalizations to prove a
                                    point. I am also amused when someone says something like, "It
                                    happened to me and it can happen to you," as if THEIR experience was
                                    the NORM and identical to that of everyone else.

                                    Barbara, exactly WHAT was the "homosexual life style" in which you
                                    were living? Are you assuming that every gay person lived the same
                                    life style" that you lived? Are you suggesting that every gay person
                                    is an alcoholic like you and will be taken out of the alcoholic
                                    lifestyle in the same way that you were? After all, "it is not
                                    complicated." (I suggest you tell that at a few A.A. meetings.)

                                    Barbara, define your particular "homosexual life style."

                                    D*
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