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Re: Not going to argue for argument's sake...

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  • poker6900
    Kip did not reply to me in private. So now he is gone. Misprogramming? 1 out of 100 people? That certainly is a common misprogramming!! A lot of Birth
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 1, 2002
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      Kip did not reply to me in private. So now he is gone.

      Misprogramming? 1 out of 100 people? That certainly is a common
      misprogramming!! A lot of "Birth Defects"!!

      Seeking a place of support. HA! He did not answer anything from my
      post. He left soon after my post without answering it.

      I have seen his posts for years around here and elsewhere.

      His posts have never convinced me.




      > Another person inquired about those with birth defects that are of
      a
      > sexual nature... and I responded to that person in private, I told
      > that person "I don't know." I think that person is in the wrong
      > forum, because there's a difference between birth defects and
      sexual
      > misprogramming, but chances are there's no good forum for that
      > person to be, and this individual is still seeking a place of
      > support (I do wish you luck, I hope you find a place that will be
      > safe for your soul as well as encouraging to your mind and
      emotions.)
      >
      > The other answers weren't answers but rather reactions from closed-
      > eyed (or at least squinting) individuals lacking control.
      >
      > I'm glad this forum exists. I think for those here - and for those
      > who drop in to visit - who are truly seeking God, they'll be able
      to
      > seperate the useful from the noise. For the rest, they will
      embrace
      > the noise because that keeps them too busy to honestly question
      > themselves and their own faith.
      >
      > Peace and God's perfect, just love to all.
      >
      > Kip
    • nyguy_1225
      ...
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 1, 2002
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        --- In exexgayministry@y..., poker6900 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        <<KIP DID NOT REPLY TO ME IN PRIVATE. SO NOW HE IS GONE.
        MISPROGRAMMING? 1 OUT OF 100 PEOPLE? THAT CERTAINLY IS A COMMON
        MISPROGRAMMING!! A LOT OF "BIRTH DEFECTS"!! SEEKING A PLACE OF
        SUPPORT. HA! HE DID NOT ANSWER ANYTHING FROM MY POST. HE LEFT SOON
        AFTER MY POST WITHOUT ANSWERING IT. I HAVE SEEN HIS POSTS FOR YEARS
        AROUND HERE AND ELSEWHERE. HIS POSTS HAVE NEVER CONVINCED ME.>>

        Personally, I think this "misprogramming" nonsense is exactly that --
        nonsense. People have been arguing over the "causes" of
        homosexuality for years and years and no doubt people will keep on
        arguing. But the fact is nobody knows what why some people are
        wired heterosexually-oriented and others homosexually-oriented. You
        can read publications that talk about this cause and that cause and
        the other cause. Every social scientist who has analyzed this
        matter says we don't know why. There are those who talk about
        genetics. There are those who talk about biophysical. There are
        those that talk about sociological, psychological factors. Nobody
        knows.

        And those who are experts say, for the most part, there are a
        variety of factors that interact with each other to create
        homosexuality and it may even be that no two people are homosexual
        for the same reason. We don't know what causes it. But what we do
        know is that the imprintation of the consciousness and the
        establishment of the orientation occurred so early in the
        development of the individual that the individual never remembers
        having made a choice. That's important because we often hear
        rhetoric that says if you just pray and repent and turn away from
        this that God will honor you and all will be well. Where do they
        get the idea that God is as concerned about changing people's
        orientation than they are? People do not need to repent of their
        sexual orienetation (whether they are straight or gay) but rather of
        their sinful responses to them.

        I think we should spend a little less time pontificating on
        what "causes" someone to be gay and a little more time on why "ex-
        gay" and other folks are so insistent that the Bible speaks against
        homosexual orientation and any and all expressions of it. I have
        yet to hear a convincing biblical argument in their favor, only the
        same few passages repeatedly taken completely out of context. (I'll
        welcome a biblical dialog on the subject with anyone who thinks they
        have a sound biblical argument.) And God knows we've learned over
        time that most "ex-gay" folks come to believe the whole "ex-gay"
        doctrine is a lie. Their "success" rate is pretty dismal. So, as
        far as I can see there is (a) no biblical basis for their belief and
        (b) no evidence scientific, biblical or otherwise, of
        their "change." And they want me to buy into that nonsense??!!
        Surely they jest!
      • poker6900
        I agree that there is no sound Biblical argument for the basis of the ex-gays. I was just presenting a reasonable postion against one of their basic views that
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 1, 2002
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          I agree that there is no sound Biblical argument for the basis of the
          ex-gays.

          I was just presenting a reasonable postion against one of their basic
          views that "God created them Male and Female and told them to go
          forth and multiply". If you cannot even define what is male and what
          is female when 1 in 100 people have bodies that differ from the
          standard male or female (see message 2473 for the rest of the
          argument) than how can you use that argument.

          I don't understand why people never use this argument and I have
          never heard anyone ever argue against this argument.


          > Personally, I think this "misprogramming" nonsense is exactly that -
          -
          > nonsense. People have been arguing over the "causes" of
          > homosexuality for years and years and no doubt people will keep on
          > arguing. But the fact is nobody knows what why some people are
          > wired heterosexually-oriented and others homosexually-oriented.
          You
          > can read publications that talk about this cause and that cause and
          > the other cause. Every social scientist who has analyzed this
          > matter says we don't know why. There are those who talk about
          > genetics. There are those who talk about biophysical. There are
          > those that talk about sociological, psychological factors. Nobody
          > knows.
          >
          > And those who are experts say, for the most part, there are a
          > variety of factors that interact with each other to create
          > homosexuality and it may even be that no two people are homosexual
          > for the same reason. We don't know what causes it. But what we
          do
          > know is that the imprintation of the consciousness and the
          > establishment of the orientation occurred so early in the
          > development of the individual that the individual never remembers
          > having made a choice. That's important because we often hear
          > rhetoric that says if you just pray and repent and turn away from
          > this that God will honor you and all will be well. Where do they
          > get the idea that God is as concerned about changing people's
          > orientation than they are? People do not need to repent of their
          > sexual orienetation (whether they are straight or gay) but rather
          of
          > their sinful responses to them.
          >
          > I think we should spend a little less time pontificating on
          > what "causes" someone to be gay and a little more time on why "ex-
          > gay" and other folks are so insistent that the Bible speaks against
          > homosexual orientation and any and all expressions of it. I have
          > yet to hear a convincing biblical argument in their favor, only the
          > same few passages repeatedly taken completely out of context.
          (I'll
          > welcome a biblical dialog on the subject with anyone who thinks
          they
          > have a sound biblical argument.) And God knows we've learned over
          > time that most "ex-gay" folks come to believe the whole "ex-gay"
          > doctrine is a lie. Their "success" rate is pretty dismal. So, as
          > far as I can see there is (a) no biblical basis for their belief
          and
          > (b) no evidence scientific, biblical or otherwise, of
          > their "change." And they want me to buy into that nonsense??!!
          > Surely they jest!
        • calldon2k
          ... the ... basic ... what ... Every illustration ultimately breaks down. So does this one... God created them Male and Female and told them to go forth and
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 1, 2002
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            --- In exexgayministry@y..., poker6900 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > I agree that there is no sound Biblical argument for the basis of
            the
            > ex-gays.
            >
            > I was just presenting a reasonable postion against one of their
            basic
            > views that "God created them Male and Female and told them to go
            > forth and multiply". If you cannot even define what is male and
            what
            > is female when 1 in 100 people have bodies that differ from the
            > standard male or female (see message 2473 for the rest of the
            > argument) than how can you use that argument.
            >
            > I don't understand why people never use this argument and I have
            > never heard anyone ever argue against this argument.

            Every illustration ultimately breaks down. So does this one...
            "God created them Male and Female and told them to go forth and
            multiply"

            That would seem to imply several things:

            A person would be going against God's will IF that person...
            1) Chose to remain single
            2) Chose to remain childless

            If a person divorces, do they HAVE to get remarried?
            If a person has a child that dies, do the HAVE to reproduce again?
            If a person cannot produce children (for medical reasons) do they
            have to adopt to be in God's will?

            THAT would certainly speak that many people are living against the
            will of God.

            That fractured logic could go on and on. But I bring it up when
            people use the above or "Adam and Eve" as "the standard" by which we
            should live our lives.

            Know what I mean???
          • Kapitano
            ... Absolutely. I agree with your entire post. I d just like to bring up the other side of the facts you state. There s cirtainly no single cause for a
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 1, 2002
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              nyguy wrote:
              > Personally, I think this "misprogramming" nonsense is exactly that --
              > nonsense.

              Absolutely. I agree with your entire post. I'd just like to bring up
              the other side of the facts you state.

              There's cirtainly no single cause for a person's sexual orientation,
              and the multitude of factors - biological, psychological, social,
              whatever - that make one person 100% gay, are not the same
              group that make another person intermittantly bisexual.

              But this needs to be balanced against two other facts. First,
              that once a sexuality is 'established' (at puberty?) it is impossible
              to change by an effort of will. And second, that a person's
              sexuality changes over time, irrespective of their wishes.

              I once knew a young man who was constantly 'bouncing'
              between exclusive heterosexuality and exclusive homosexuality.
              He would spend around nine months moving from one to the
              other, then another nine months going back again.

              I have always been homosexual, but in my teens I was usually
              the active partner, and I'm approaching 31, I've painlessly
              'drifted' into being the opposite.

              I once worked with two men who were almost completely
              heterosexual, except with each other. They had a stable,
              loving, sexual relationship. They rarely looked at other
              men, but looked at women a lot - together.

              Sexuality seems to be paradoxical. We can't change it, but
              it changes anyway. It had no identified influences on it's formation,
              and has no predictable form.



              -- Kapitano
              Poing! Poing! Poing! Poing! Poing! Poing! Poing!
            • calldon2k
              ... that -- ... Something else to consider: WHAT causes a person to be heterosexual? Is it biological, phycholocigal, social, childhood trauma, seperation
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 1, 2002
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                --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Kapitano" <kapitano@b...> wrote:
                > nyguy wrote:
                > > Personally, I think this "misprogramming" nonsense is exactly
                that --
                > > nonsense.
                > Kapitano wrote:
                > Absolutely. I agree with your entire post. I'd just like to bring up
                > the other side of the facts you state.
                >
                > There's cirtainly no single cause for a person's sexual orientation,
                > and the multitude of factors - biological, psychological, social,
                > whatever - that make one person 100% gay, are not the same
                > group that make another person intermittantly bisexual.

                Something else to consider:

                WHAT causes a person to be heterosexual? Is it biological,
                phycholocigal, social, childhood trauma, seperation from parents???

                Is heterosexuality considered normal because there is more of it and
                it allows reproduction in humans?

                Hmmm???

                > But this needs to be balanced against two other facts. First,
                > that once a sexuality is 'established' (at puberty?) it is
                impossible
                > to change by an effort of will.

                I think people "want" different things at different stages of their
                life.

                >And second, that a person's
                > sexuality changes over time, irrespective of their wishes.

                Your life experiences change. Your desires might change also to a
                degree, sometimes small, sometimes great.

                D*
              • BearJER@juno.com
                I guess you lost me on that argument because the apostle Paul emphasized in his writings about marriage that every man (or woman) has his (her) proper gift of
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 1, 2002
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                  I guess you lost me on that argument because the apostle Paul emphasized
                  in his writings about marriage that "every man (or woman) has his (her)
                  proper gift of God (whether to be married or single). (Corinthians,
                  forgot the chapter). And remember the fact that unless an actual birth
                  defect in the physical sense results, we are either male or female.
                  Homsexuality does not make us a non-male or non-female, so I guess I
                  didn't understand exactly what you meant.

                  --Jerry

                  On Tue, 01 Oct 2002 21:10:15 -0000 calldon2k <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                  writes:
                  > --- In exexgayministry@y..., poker6900 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > > I agree that there is no sound Biblical argument for the basis of
                  >
                  > the
                  > > ex-gays.
                  > >
                  > > I was just presenting a reasonable postion against one of their
                  > basic
                  > > views that "God created them Male and Female and told them to go
                  > > forth and multiply". If you cannot even define what is male and
                  > what
                  > > is female when 1 in 100 people have bodies that differ from the
                  > > standard male or female (see message 2473 for the rest of the
                  > > argument) than how can you use that argument.
                  > >
                  > > I don't understand why people never use this argument and I have
                  > > never heard anyone ever argue against this argument.
                  >
                  > Every illustration ultimately breaks down. So does this one...
                  > "God created them Male and Female and told them to go forth and
                  > multiply"
                  >
                  > That would seem to imply several things:
                  >
                  > A person would be going against God's will IF that person...
                  > 1) Chose to remain single
                  > 2) Chose to remain childless
                  >
                  > If a person divorces, do they HAVE to get remarried?
                  > If a person has a child that dies, do the HAVE to reproduce again?
                  > If a person cannot produce children (for medical reasons) do they
                  > have to adopt to be in God's will?
                  >
                  > THAT would certainly speak that many people are living against the
                  > will of God.
                  >
                  > That fractured logic could go on and on. But I bring it up when
                  > people use the above or "Adam and Eve" as "the standard" by which we
                  >
                  > should live our lives.
                  >
                  > Know what I mean???
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >

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                • calldon2k
                  ... emphasized ... (her) ... Here, you are ADDING to what was NOT said in the original post about male and female and multiplying. My comments were a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 2, 2002
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                    --- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
                    > I guess you lost me on that argument because the apostle Paul
                    emphasized
                    > in his writings about marriage that "every man (or woman) has his
                    (her)
                    > proper gift of God (whether to be married or single). (Corinthians,
                    > forgot the chapter).

                    Here, you are ADDING to what was NOT said in the original post
                    about "male and female" and multiplying. My comments were a response
                    to that!

                    >And remember the fact that unless an actual birth
                    > defect in the physical sense results, we are either male or female.
                    > Homsexuality does not make us a non-male or non-female, so I guess I
                    > didn't understand exactly what you meant.

                    Read the original post THEN read the response to it...and don't add
                    any other scriptures.

                    NOW...back to what I asked before in your post of many months back.
                    I have questions about what YOU wrote. Please answer them to clarify
                    your position for me. Thanks.

                    ==============

                    Jerry, you use the term, "…to embrace the gay lifestyle."
                    QUESTION1: When did you embrace the "heterosexual lifestyle?"
                    QUESTION2: When did you embrace the "Christian lifestyle."

                    Then you stated, "…the gay lifestyle is not chosen."
                    QUESTION3: WHAT "gay lifestyle is not chosen?" What does THAT mean?
                    QUESTION4: WHEN and HOW Did you CHOOSE the "heterosexual lifestyle"
                    or the "Christian lifestyle?"
                    QUESTION5: Please define the "gay lifestyle." Seriously…define
                    it
                    and be specific.
                    QUESTION6: While you are at it, can you please define the "Christian
                    lifestyle" and be specific?

                    Jerry, you stated…"If they believe that (for them, anyway), acting
                    out homosexually is wrong and they believe God to help them change,
                    then we are re-miss in not supporting them in their decision, even if
                    we have made another choice."

                    MY COMMENT: I would reply by saying, if one believes that (for them,
                    anyway) being gay is OK and God will accept them, then we are re-miss
                    in not supporting them in their decision, even if we have made
                    another choice. Don't you agree?

                    You stated…"…but what I am talking about is a behavior choice,
                    not a re-orientation choice. That can only come, if it comes at all,
                    by the grace of God."

                    MY COMMENT: Not true. A behavior choice can come to any person who
                    is STRONGLY motivated. It happens every day and God is usually not
                    involved at all in the process. Just ask any counselor.

                    These are my observations. These comments are not flames. I am
                    serious. I would appreciate answers. Thanks,

                    ===================

                    D*
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