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Re: The Gospel of Grace

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  • hippymanedude
    ... exist ... reason ... It s possible that the whole concept of sexual orientation may be a lie. That of course gets into the very old and heated debate of
    Message 1 of 41 , Sep 22, 2002
      > > The Bible doesn't teach that "its ok to be gay."
      > >
      > > The Bible doesn't teach that it's OK to be white.
      > >
      > > The Bible doesn't teach that it's OK to be Methodist.
      > >
      > > The Bible doesn't address any of these issues at all. Sexual
      > > orientation, the "homosexual" and "homosexuality" didn't even
      exist
      > >
      > > then...even in their own languages. Why not? For the same
      reason
      > > the term "computer" didn't exist. The concept of sexual
      > > orientation
      > > is a modern concept...completely foreign to Biblical writers.

      It's possible that the whole concept of "sexual orientation" may be
      a lie. That of course gets into the very old and heated debate of
      whether someone is "born" "gay" or not.

      The following comments are to the group in general, not only to the
      person I quoted above... Times and technologies have changed.
      People have not. They still strive to do good, share, love, lie
      cheat sin... God has not changed, at least if your faith is founded
      in the Bible. He saw all taht would ever come... the most famous
      latter day fulfilled prophecy attests to that - the founding of
      Isreal as a nation once again. Surely God saw all that would come,
      including computers, "gay orientation", "woman's liberation" etc...

      Gays and ex gays seem to have a binary way of thinking. "Either
      it'sa sin to be gay and God will change me, or God won't change me
      and it's ok to be gay." This viewpoint is simplistic and
      unrealistic. All through the Bible men and women were persecuted
      and or suffered for their beliefs - for their love of God... and
      often had to fight their very own sinly nature.

      I'm a sinner. I've sinned a LOT... I'm still sinning. I'm at a
      point of frustration and anger, but I know that it is often when I
      have been at my lowest that God has worked within me... I can only
      pray that this will continue to be the case, as I am sinking toward
      a low point once again. Every single man, woman, and child on earth
      is a sinner. We cannot justify ourselves - that was the whole
      purpose of Christ. Neither should we be quick to embrace
      selfishness. I've given in to my carnal urges in fantasy lately...
      but that doesn't mean it's ok... people would describe me as a nice
      guy, and I know many people I would describe as nice... people who
      have suffered greatly for things beyond their control. But just as
      the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so it may be that
      hell is filled with nice guys. "Sin" is that which goes against
      God. Someone can be a "nice person" and sin... it happens every
      day. We look at the "big sins" such as greed, wealth, murder...
      considered the "small ones" lately?

      If I really loved God with all my heart and soul and mind, I would
      do my best to live celebate. Unfortunately, my love is far from
      perfect. I don't beat myself up over it, that is a futile
      exercise. I can only try to change, ask God to change me... there
      are those of you here who value people with the knowledge and
      learning of this world... phd's, those who have written books, and
      those who have perfect grammer and clever use of words.

      I came here, unfortunately with my own frustration showing, way back
      when I first posted. I asked what reasoning the ex ex gay based his
      or her faith on... it seems that that faith is based on the failure
      of the ex gay ministry... faith baised on another's failure... well,
      I have to question how legitimate that can possibly ever be?

      I asked for help understanding, did my best to set my own attitudes
      aside, and was rebuked and scoffed. I was belittled... I was told
      to look for myself, and yet when I have I saw no reasoning behind
      the beliefs of ex-ex gays... I still see no reasoning behind it,
      only wishful thinking and anger borne of a life of frustration and
      rejection. I was told by someone that they would not "hold my hand"
      and "spoon feed me the answers"... when I had merely asked for an
      explanation of something I did not understand... how very Christ-
      like of that person... but then, I have failed in being Christ-like
      as well, so I am damned right along side you... I gave in to my
      anger caused by your flippant responses, and gave a flippant
      response of my own, which only made matters worse.

      I'll be honest... because of the response and very little
      rationality I've recieved from a few of the most vocal individuals
      here, I have concluded that your faith is empty, and that at least
      some of you are fueled by the anger of your own injustice. I have
      further concluded that those same among you would much
      rather "defend your cause" than seek God.

      People come to you out of the very same frustration and pain that
      you have been through... as someone who's been there yourselves, one
      would expect compassion and patience... yet all too often it isn't
      here. There's a strong sense of rivalry and theological competition
      here... you forget that there are only two ways... God's way, and
      the way of the sinful nature in every single one of us.
      Interpretations are all well and good (or not), but I ask a very
      legitimate question: do you believe what you do because
      it's "convenient" or because you love God? I ask myself this a lot,
      I think more people could benifit from asking themselves this.

      The person who is born blind can curse God and say "heal me or I
      won't follow you" or accept their personal affliction, try to focus
      on the personal gifts God has given them, and move on... it's not
      easy, but it's the best a person can try to do. Though surely most
      of you will say "there's nothing in common with being blind and
      being gay"... are you sure about that? Does a blind man choose to
      be blind? Does a gay man choose to be gay? Everyone has
      imperfections of mind and body, even if being attracted to the same
      sex is a dysfunction (which I personally have seen enough evidence
      to believe it myself and will happily talk at lenght about it with
      individauls one on one - but not here, this isn't the proper format
      for it)... it does not make you any less of a man than anyone else.
      It's not what afflictions or shortcomings we have, it's what we do
      with what we've got that measures how much of a man we are.

      Myself, I've got a lot of work to do... but I refuse to wrap myself
      in a blanket of self-dilusional lies just so I can feel like I am
      justified when I am not.

      I don't write this to create problems... I write it because I
      sincerely believe there are a lot of people here who have lost their
      way. I can't show you the way - it's not my place, and we should
      follow God not other people, but I think in answering these
      questions I've asked - answering them privately and honestly for
      yourselves... that's a start in the right direction. I don't think
      God wishes us to hate ourselves and loath ourselves, but I do think
      He wishes us to be honest with ourselves as best we can... even if
      that honesty uncovers things about ourselves we don't want to see
      (better to see ourselves honestly than stick our head in the sand
      like an osterich...) If you'd rather feel justified in a gay
      relationship and live a season in sin, then that's your choice. But
      please... don't lie to others, because when you lead others astray
      too, the price you pay will be that much greater a price.

      No apology this time for the length or content. It is relevant, and
      it is the length it needed to be... if the moderator chooses not to
      post it, then that is on his/her head, I felt it my duty to write it
      and submit it, so my part is done.

      Peace
    • calldon2k
      ... personally) and ... cause ... it was ... and no ... either ... Jerry, this really is NOT the group for accomplishing that. This is a support group for
      Message 41 of 41 , Oct 1, 2002
        --- In exexgayministry@y..., BearJER@j... wrote:
        > Dave, I really am a pretty sensitive guy (if you knew me
        personally) and
        > I care a lot about peoples' feelings. So, no way am I trying to
        cause
        > trouble. I asked to be on this group so you could all convince me
        it was
        > in accordance with Biblical teaching for me to accept my gayness
        and no
        > longer even desire to see a change in behavior or orientation,
        either
        > one.

        Jerry, this really is NOT the group for accomplishing that. This is
        a support group for those who have already settled that in their mind
        and friends of those folks. One problem has been when people come
        here to debate. This is NOT a debate group.

        >People can always use flowery words to argue their position, but
        > the Bible tells us to "prove all things and to hold fast to that
        which is
        > good." But I would LOVE for you guys to prove your position by the
        > Bible.

        Jerry, you are arguing an interpretation of a book written two-
        thousand years ago in a language being translated into a totally
        different language that did not even exist back then. Then there is
        the complex cultural context of those writings compared with
        contemporary culture. What may appear to be "flowery words" to you
        is really an attempt to do what in many cases is almost impossible
        with the texts.

        Remember that the Jesus literally said, "I am the door." Do you
        believe that? Jesus said the mustard seed is the smallest seed. Any
        third-grade kid knows THAT is not true. But Jesus said it, if we
        quote an English translation of that passage out of context! The
        Bible says that if your eye causes you to sin, then pluck it out. Do
        you believe that? Did you do it? The Bible also says that if your
        hand causes you to sin, then cut off your hand. Do you believe
        that? Did you do it?

        Was Jesus just using flowery words?

        I always suggest www.truluck.com as a good basic primer on the
        Biblical issue.

        D*
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