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Correction to post #2421

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  • nyguy_1225
    Dr Lewis Smedes articulate and thought-provoking essay referenced in post #1821 has been moeved. The new link is:
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 21 3:59 PM
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      Dr Lewis Smedes' articulate and thought-provoking essay referenced
      in post #1821 has been moeved. The new link is:
      http://www.soulforce.org/main/lewissmedes.shtml
    • seekingtofind2000
      This essay is disappointing. Liberties are taken, too much wishful thinking. Not enough meat to make an argument. Comparing the quality of material defending
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 24 6:44 PM
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        This essay is disappointing. Liberties are taken, too much wishful
        thinking. Not enough meat to make an argument.

        Comparing the quality of material defending my view that it's ok to
        be gay, with the quality of material defending the view that
        homosexual relations are sinful, I'm starting to think I'm wrong.
        Maybe the ex gays are right after all. I'm becoming convinced that
        my desires to be partnered with another man are contrary to what God
        wishes for men. I don't believe those desires will change in this
        life, and they do feel natural. But when I think about it, a lot of
        things that aren't good for me feel natural (ask an alcoholic how
        natural it is to pick up another drink). But for me the question
        isn't will God make me straight or not, and if not then I will have
        a male partner. The question is, is it a sin or not to have a male
        partner? I see reasons to think it is a sin, but no matter how hard
        I look I'm not finding good ones to think it's ok. If I have to
        choose between a lover and God, it's no contest. It doesn't make it
        easy to follow Him, but if it was easy I guess everyone would be
        saved, wouldn't they?

        Tell me I'm wrong. Toss me something to hold on to here, so that I
        don't have to break up with my boyfriend... but toss me something
        real, not an illusion. I keep seeking... God is most important.
        But it doesn't seem fair that a man should desire all the things
        he's not supposed to have, and find it so hard to desire what he
        should. I keep reminding myself as long as I keep trying to love
        and obey God, that everything will work out. But things don't work
        out the way I want them to very often, so I try to remind myself God
        knows what is best for me. What do you guys do when you struggle?
        Is praying and seeking not enough?

        --- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > Dr Lewis Smedes' articulate and thought-provoking essay referenced
        > in post #1821 has been moeved. The new link is:
        > http://www.soulforce.org/main/lewissmedes.shtml
      • nyguy_1225
        ...
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 24 9:55 PM
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          --- In exexgayministry@y..., seekingtofind2000 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          <<COMPARING THE QUALITY OF MATERIAL DEFENDING MY VIEW THAT IT'S OK
          TO
          BE GAY, WITH THE QUALITY OF MATERIAL DEFENDING THE VIEW THAT
          HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONS ARE SINFUL, I'M STARTING TO THINK I'M WRONG.
          MAYBE THE EX GAYS ARE RIGHT AFTER ALL ... I'M BECOMING CONVINCED
          THAT
          MY DESIRES TO BE PARTNERED WITH ANOTHER MAN ARE CONTRARY TO WHAT GOD
          WISHES FOR MEN ... TOSS ME SOMETHING TO HOLD ON TO HERE, SO THAT I
          DON'T HAVE TO BREAK UP WITH MY BOYFRIEND ... BUT TOSS ME SOMETHING
          REAL, NOT AN ILLUSION. GOD IS MOST IMPORTANT.>>

          You sound like a sincere man searching for honest answers, as you
          name [seekingtofind] implies. You said you'd like to consider
          something "real" and not simply some "illusion." I respect that.
          So let's see if we can take a look at some real things and bypass
          the illusions. If you bear with me, as I have somewhat limited time
          to devote to this board, I'd be willing to take a look at some of
          that material with you.

          So let's start at the beginning. You mentioned in your post
          that "the quality of material defending the view that homosexual
          relations are wrong" seems to outweigh any other view. What
          specific material leads you to believe that? In other words, what
          specific passages of Scripture have led you to draw that
          conclusion? (May I presume when you speak of quality of material
          you're speaking of biblical references?) And if so, let's go at them
          just one at a time so we can maybe examine them at some depth and
          not just simply gloss over them.
        • calldon2k
          ... What ex-gays? You mean John Paulk? Remember, he is still as gay as ever. IF you want to know about John, just ask the guys for whom he was buying drinks
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 24 11:55 PM
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            --- In exexgayministry@y..., seekingtofind2000 <no_reply@y...> wrote:

            > Maybe the ex gays are right after all.

            What ex-gays? You mean John Paulk? Remember, he is still as gay as
            ever. IF you want to know about John, just ask the guys for whom he
            was buying drinks in that gay bar in Washington D.C. They will
            certainly tell you about John.

            > Maybe the ex gays are right after all.

            What ex-gays? You mean the ex-gays who, in their testimonies, post
            things like, "I still struggle" or "I have hope that God will finish
            healing me?" Doesn't sound like THEY are EX-anything. Sounds like
            they are more frustrated than ever. In other words, they are still
            NOT ex-gay. Please don't call them ex-gays.

            > But when I think about it, a lot of
            > things that aren't good for me feel natural (ask an alcoholic how
            > natural it is to pick up another drink).

            So you are comparing your sexuality with a chemical
            addiction/allergy??? That is strange.

            Ask an alcoholic how natural it was to drink in the first place! Was
            he an alcoholic before he took a drink? HINT: Certainly not.

            Did he sit around and say, "I knew I was different. When I was 8-
            years old, I would have feelings of affection for that vodka bottle!"

            Think about it. Sexuality and a chemical addiction/allergy are NOT
            RELATED in any way.

            >I keep reminding myself as long as I keep trying to love
            > and obey God, that everything will work out. But things don't work
            > out the way I want them to very often, so I try to remind myself
            God
            > knows what is best for me. What do you guys do when you struggle?
            > Is praying and seeking not enough?

            So how many years have you been beating yourself over the head with
            that steel Bible you have in your hand?

            IF you believe that God will change you according to 1Cor6:9-11, then
            go for it. If he doesn't change you, then EITHER God is a liar OR
            your theology is incorrect.

            However, to save time and to save your sanity, you can read/study the
            web-sites and scriptures that you will be given by the folks on this
            group. Eventually, you will have to make a decision for
            yourself...and live with it, at least until you are ready to commit
            suicide. Then you will be back here!

            Is God a liar? Or is the ex-gay theology in error?

            D*
          • Kapitano
            ... Right about what? That being gay is a lifestyle choice? It obviously isn t. That being gay is inherantly self detructive? You have to marvel at the
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 26 7:38 AM
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              seekingtofind2000 wrote:
              > > http://www.soulforce.org/main/lewissmedes.shtm
              >
              > This essay is disappointing. Liberties are taken, too much wishful
              > thinking. Not enough meat to make an argument.
              >
              > Comparing the quality of material defending my view that it's ok to
              > be gay, with the quality of material defending the view that
              > homosexual relations are sinful, I'm starting to think I'm wrong.
              > Maybe the ex gays are right after all.

              Right about what? That being gay is a lifestyle choice? It obviously
              isn't.

              That being gay is inherantly self detructive? You have to marvel
              at the hypocrisy of people who make your life miserable and then
              tell you you've done it to yourself.

              That God has to break your will and condemn you to a life of
              suffering and self-hatred, so you can avoid hell when you die?

              > I'm becoming convinced that
              > my desires to be partnered with another man are contrary to what
              > God wishes for men.

              Then what does God want from you? That you live alone and be
              lonely? That you get married ruin her life too? That you pretend to
              be 'cured' and lie to everyone?

              Quite apart from that, do you love your partner? If you do, ask
              yourself why God would want you to destroy your love? Does
              God hate you so much that he wants you to never know love?
              Of course not.

              > I don't believe those desires will change in this
              > life, and they do feel natural. But when I think about it, a lot of
              > things that aren't good for me feel natural (ask an alcoholic how
              > natural it is to pick up another drink).

              Alcholism is a psychological addiction. It's impossible to have a
              fulfilling relationship with a bottle of whiskey. If gay relationships
              were like that, none of them would work. In fact, they work
              just as often as heterosexual relationships do. So, either
              heterosexuality is like alchoholism too, or the analogy is
              false.

              Alchoholism has a pathology and prognoses. Homosexuality
              has none.

              Alchoholism is an aquired behavior. People enter into it to
              escape something unbearable, and then it becomes
              habitual. People don't enter into homosexual emotions.
              They either have them or they don't.

              Comparing homosexuality to an addiction is *the* central
              medical argument used by exgay ministries. As you can see,
              it fails completely.

              > But for me the question
              > isn't will God make me straight or not, and if not then I will have
              > a male partner.

              Then the question is: Do you think God wants you to be
              unhappy, unfulfilled, and alone? Does God demand that you
              suffer?

              By the way, there *is* a biblical creature that need it's
              subjects to feel pain. Satan.

              > The question is, is it a sin or not to have a male
              > partner? I see reasons to think it is a sin, but no matter how hard
              > I look I'm not finding good ones to think it's ok.

              The reasons to think it's sinful are no good. Don't take my word
              for it, examine them yourself.

              Once you've seen they're invalid, you don't need to find reasons
              why it's okay to have a male partner.

              If something isn't a sin, it's good. If you prove that something isn't
              a sin, you've proven that it's good. You don't need any extra proofs.

              > If I have to
              > choose between a lover and God, it's no contest.

              What kind of God would make you have to chose?

              The choice isn't between God and homosexuality. It's
              between obeying a God who wants you to love yourself,
              and obeying a group of charlatans who want you to
              hate yourself.

              It's very simple. God does not place you in impossible
              situations. He doesn't set you problems that you could never
              solve. Only people do that. Evil people.

              > It doesn't make it
              > easy to follow Him, but if it was easy I guess everyone would be
              > saved, wouldn't they?

              The love of God is not meant to give you pain. If it hurts, it didn't
              come from God.

              > Tell me I'm wrong. Toss me something to hold on to here, so that I
              > don't have to break up with my boyfriend... but toss me something
              > real, not an illusion. I keep seeking... God is most important.
              > But it doesn't seem fair that a man should desire all the things
              > he's not supposed to have, and find it so hard to desire what he
              > should.

              It isn't fair. So you have to ask yourself: What kind of deity
              creates you, then makes your life impossible to live? If
              it isn't fair, then either God created it deliberately unfair, or
              people have distorted it, making it unfair.

              >I keep reminding myself as long as I keep trying to love
              > and obey God, that everything will work out.

              Who in fact are you obeying? God himself, or someone twisting
              God's words to get power over you?

              > But things don't work
              > out the way I want them to very often, so I try to remind myself God
              > knows what is best for me. What do you guys do when you struggle?
              > Is praying and seeking not enough?

              If you are placed between your own emotions and the
              moral imperatives of the exgay movement, one of the two
              has to give way for you to find peace.

              In the 20 year history of the exgay movement, there have been only
              two outcomes of this dilemma. The one caught between the two
              either never finds resolution and peace, or he discards the imperatives.

              There are simply no cases where the exgay morality has broken
              homosexual feelings. All such reported cases have turned out to
              be untrue. The exgay leaders are not men of God, and they are
              lying to you.

              There are no exgays in the exgay movement. You are being conned.


              -- Kapitano
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