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Beyond Media Attention

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  • nyguy_1225
    Again, I think we need to make a distinction between gay Christians who are thoroughly evangelical in their theological position and who hold a high (or the
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 29, 2002
      Again, I think we need to make a distinction between gay Christians
      who are thoroughly evangelical in their theological position and who
      hold a high (or the highest possible) view of Christ and the Bible
      and those who do not.

      For evangelicals this is not simply a matter of "hiding." The
      antipathy that evangelicals display toward gay people is not hatred
      directed at us as gay people, but moral disgust directed at
      homosexual behavior. Evangelical churches reject homosexual practice
      on biblical grounds. Their demonstration of disapproval towards
      this "sin" is a legitimate expression of Christian opinion on a
      contemporary ethical issue.

      Therefore gay Christians who are evangelical in their theological
      position and who hold a high view of Christ and the Bible should
      focus on encouraging and welcoming opportunities for a constructive,
      even-handed discussion of the relevant pastoral theology and textual
      exegesis. This is about far more than simply "proof-texting" a few
      isolated passages of Scripture. This is what yielded the recent
      Vancouver victory and this is what has produced the fruit and other
      favorable changes that I have witness daily. The goal is to re-open
      the argument. And once the argument has been re-opened, with time
      and patience incredible things happen! The Vancouver victory is
      only one such example. We need to invest in these people. We need
      to let our light shine. We need to know the Word of God. And even
      more important than knowing the Bible, we need to know how to apply
      it in love. Because knowledge in and of itself will only make us
      arrogant. But love will build up the body (1 Corinthians 8:1). I
      have never seen confrontative methods yield fruit in this
      controversy.

      Gay people who are not Christian and/or evangelical and who do not
      hold a high view of Christ and the Bible will not be well-versed in
      Scripture (i.e. they will not know it from anything more than a
      simple tangential level) as this is simply not a priority for them.
      And therefore, they will not be well-equipped to do much more than
      make a lot of noise. My experience has been that the latter only
      serves undermine our desired goal, not further it. If you truly
      want to know how to reach them and what works, this is what I have
      found effective.
    • nojam75
      I agree. As I stated before, I doubt aggressive, intrusive protests are effective in changing people minds. However, I do think public, non-intrusive
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 29, 2002
        I agree. As I stated before, I doubt aggressive, intrusive protests
        are effective in changing people minds. However, I do think public,
        non-intrusive protests are appropriate at events that seek media &
        public attention. It is important to have alternative views
        represented at such events. But I wouldn't pretend to say that such
        protests are anything more than a counter-protest -- not an attempt
        at "witnessing".

        It sounds like you are talking about becoming a pro-gay missionary
        to the anti-gay Christians. Fighting fire with fire? (or lite with
        light). Would you propose convertly doing this? For example, would
        you propose that pro-gay Christians should purposely join an anti-
        gay church or organization (i.e. SBC, Promise Keepers, a Yahoo!
        club, etc.), befriend members and <poof!> "Surprise I'm gay and
        here's why it's okay . . ." Or do you propose something like "Don't
        ask, don't tell" until the matter comes up?

        Personally, I don't believe I have the patience or gift, right now,
        to walk into the murky waters of Christian fundamentalism. As you
        know, I have problems with upholding the Bible as "The Word of
        God". So, I don't think I could find very much common ground with
        anti-gay Christians -- at least those I used to know. I think
        homosexuality is just one of several cracks in the foundations of
        the anti-gay parts of Christianity. Biblical fundamentalism,
        exclusivism, sexism, etc. are still major failings of many Christian
        organizations, so I doubt I could pretend that I am a fellow
        supporter of such orgs.

        - Norm!



        --- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > Again, I think we need to make a distinction between gay
        Christians
        > who are thoroughly evangelical in their theological position and
        who
        > hold a high (or the highest possible) view of Christ and the Bible
        > and those who do not.
        >
        > For evangelicals this is not simply a matter of "hiding." The
        > antipathy that evangelicals display toward gay people is not
        hatred
        > directed at us as gay people, but moral disgust directed at
        > homosexual behavior. Evangelical churches reject homosexual
        practice
        > on biblical grounds. Their demonstration of disapproval towards
        > this "sin" is a legitimate expression of Christian opinion on a
        > contemporary ethical issue.
        >
        > Therefore gay Christians who are evangelical in their theological
        > position and who hold a high view of Christ and the Bible should
        > focus on encouraging and welcoming opportunities for a
        constructive,
        > even-handed discussion of the relevant pastoral theology and
        textual
        > exegesis. This is about far more than simply "proof-texting" a
        few
        > isolated passages of Scripture. This is what yielded the recent
        > Vancouver victory and this is what has produced the fruit and
        other
        > favorable changes that I have witness daily. The goal is to re-
        open
        > the argument. And once the argument has been re-opened, with time
        > and patience incredible things happen! The Vancouver victory is
        > only one such example. We need to invest in these people. We
        need
        > to let our light shine. We need to know the Word of God. And
        even
        > more important than knowing the Bible, we need to know how to
        apply
        > it in love. Because knowledge in and of itself will only make us
        > arrogant. But love will build up the body (1 Corinthians 8:1). I
        > have never seen confrontative methods yield fruit in this
        > controversy.
        >
        > Gay people who are not Christian and/or evangelical and who do not
        > hold a high view of Christ and the Bible will not be well-versed
        in
        > Scripture (i.e. they will not know it from anything more than a
        > simple tangential level) as this is simply not a priority for
        them.
        > And therefore, they will not be well-equipped to do much more than
        > make a lot of noise. My experience has been that the latter only
        > serves undermine our desired goal, not further it. If you truly
        > want to know how to reach them and what works, this is what I have
        > found effective.
      • nyguy_1225
        The answer to your question is no. I personally would not align myself with (i.e. become a member of) a church that is not welcoming to openly gay people.
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 29, 2002
          The answer to your question is "no." I personally would not align
          myself with (i.e. become a member of) a church that is not welcoming
          to openly gay people. I propose being as open, as honest and as
          upfront as possible -- the absolute antithesis of covert tactics.
          Anyone who dialogs with me generally knows exactly where I'm coming
          from, what I believe and why I believe it.

          Many of us who have spent at least part of our lives being "ex-gay"
          have developed relationships at some level with Christians who were
          or are anti-gay. I salvage those relationships that are salvageable
          and "shake the dust off my feet" on those that are not. In
          addition, I'm always open to new opportunities to dialog with any
          anti-gay Christian who believes he or she can support their anti-gay
          stand biblically. Those willing to talk beyond a mere tangential or
          surface level generally realize early on that they have a lot more
          homework to do if they want to discuss the matter intelligently,
          constructively with textual exegesis and not simply "proof-text" a
          few isolated passages or apply OT laws with wooden literalism.

          Many realize only then for the first time that the quick and fast
          pat answers they have been taught don't really cut it at all. And
          that is the beginning. It also serves to help sharpen my own
          knowledge. Doesn't the Bible say we should be prepared to give an
          account of what we believe? Jesus himself never passed up the
          opportunity to discuss issues with all manner of people, from rabbis
          and Pharisees to businessmen and prostitutes. I am convinced that
          Jesus would be at the center of any debate we may have on
          homosexuality. Am I equally sure he would bring some wider, yet
          pivotal, issues to the table for the Church to face up to. The
          debate about homosexuality isn't going to go away. Anti-gay
          Christians know they can't bury their heads in the sand and pretend
          that it will. An open debate, sooner or later, is bound to happen.
          And Jesus would also be at pains to point out that dialogue is a two-
          way street that requires graciousness from both directions.
        • nojam75
          Thanks for the clarification, nyguy. I guess I ve isolated myself in pro-gay circles and have not maintained any meaningful relationships with my anti-gay
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 29, 2002
            Thanks for the clarification, nyguy.

            I guess I've isolated myself in pro-gay circles and have not
            maintained any meaningful relationships with my "anti-gay Christian"
            friends.

            What I have noticed though, is that in the few "anti-gay Christian"
            friendships or acquaintances I have had, the topic of homosexuality
            was purposely and mutually avoided. I never felt that bringing up
            the topic of homosexuality with an "anti-gay Christian" would have
            contributed to the friendship. Instead, we discussed only the very
            broad things we agreed upon -- public service, honesty, etc.

            You are right that eventually the church will have to deal with
            homosexuality. But I'm not sure change will come from a dialogue or
            debate as much as it will come from gays becoming essential members
            of the church community.

            - Norm!




            --- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > The answer to your question is "no." I personally would not align
            > myself with (i.e. become a member of) a church that is not
            welcoming
            > to openly gay people. I propose being as open, as honest and as
            > upfront as possible -- the absolute antithesis of covert tactics.
            > Anyone who dialogs with me generally knows exactly where I'm
            coming
            > from, what I believe and why I believe it.
            >
            > Many of us who have spent at least part of our lives being "ex-
            gay"
            > have developed relationships at some level with Christians who
            were
            > or are anti-gay. I salvage those relationships that are
            salvageable
            > and "shake the dust off my feet" on those that are not. In
            > addition, I'm always open to new opportunities to dialog with any
            > anti-gay Christian who believes he or she can support their anti-
            gay
            > stand biblically. Those willing to talk beyond a mere tangential
            or
            > surface level generally realize early on that they have a lot more
            > homework to do if they want to discuss the matter intelligently,
            > constructively with textual exegesis and not simply "proof-text" a
            > few isolated passages or apply OT laws with wooden literalism.
            >
            > Many realize only then for the first time that the quick and fast
            > pat answers they have been taught don't really cut it at all. And
            > that is the beginning. It also serves to help sharpen my own
            > knowledge. Doesn't the Bible say we should be prepared to give an
            > account of what we believe? Jesus himself never passed up the
            > opportunity to discuss issues with all manner of people, from
            rabbis
            > and Pharisees to businessmen and prostitutes. I am convinced that
            > Jesus would be at the center of any debate we may have on
            > homosexuality. Am I equally sure he would bring some wider, yet
            > pivotal, issues to the table for the Church to face up to. The
            > debate about homosexuality isn't going to go away. Anti-gay
            > Christians know they can't bury their heads in the sand and
            pretend
            > that it will. An open debate, sooner or later, is bound to happen.
            > And Jesus would also be at pains to point out that dialogue is a
            two-
            > way street that requires graciousness from both directions.
          • nyguy_1225
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 30, 2002
              <<I guess I've isolated myself in pro-gay circles and have not
              maintained any meaningful relationships with my "anti-gay Christian"
              friends.>>

              I'm not sure I'd classify all of the relationships I've been able to
              sustain from my anti-gay days as "meaningful" in the fullest sense
              of the word. Some through dialogue and time have changed their
              minds about what the Bible says about homosexuality as they've re-
              examined the issue. Again this has been a process, not an overnight
              or instantaneous event. And as a result, some of these
              relationships have become richer, more honest and more meaningful.
              And there are others who just think I'm a rebellious reprobate
              deceived sinner and with whom I have no contact or dialogue with at
              all.

              But regardless of where one is at, there will always be
              opportunities to challenge and/or encourage others whom God may
              place in your path. On some levels the Yahoo Group you moderate
              right here can be a marvelous venue. People post here all the time
              that have been taught and still carry around anti-gay theology. One
              recent example is "Jerry" who in post #2319 confronted the group
              with 4 separate challenges. In post #2322 they were responded to
              and I think it's fair to assume by virtue of the fact that he then
              dropped the challenges that he got some food for thought. Jerry,
              and many others like him, is saddled with incorrect information
              about what the Bible says about homosexuality that's simply been
              passed down to him -- and until somewhat recently few, if any, have
              challenged these people to take a fresh look at the issue.
            • Chris H
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 30, 2002
                <<I guess I've isolated myself in pro-gay circles and have not
                maintained any meaningful relationships with my "anti-gay Christian"
                friends.>>

                I have personally worked really hard to maintain some of these
                friendships. It has been important to me to do so, as these people
                represent an important part of my history, and therefore of who I am.
                Not all have chosen to reciprocate, and I must respect that choice.
                But I have found that my refusal to apologise or justify myself has left
                many of them unable to challenge me.
                I always enjoy the opportunity for debate if people wish to do so, but
                I have been astounded at the number who have not done so. I believe (and
                I may be misguided.) that they realise when they hear my story that they
                have little or no recourse, and must re-examine their own stance and
                beliefs.
                Many have done so, and remain friends, but it has been unsettling to
                their own belief-system and choices (which I see as positive and
                healthy).
                Of course there is always the situation of running into someone whom I
                haven't seen since before I 'came out', and I do find this a challenge
                every time it happens. It is the anticipation of the shock my friends
                will undoubtedly experience that I find a little anxiety-inducing.
                However, many, of course, have had journeys of their own, and it is not
                a step I have ever regretted taking!
                Cheers
                Chris


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • nyguy_1225
                Chris, I so appreciated your testimony. It required some real courage on your part to come out to them. For how can evangelical Christians who are gay come
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 30, 2002
                  Chris,
                  I so appreciated your testimony. It required some real courage on
                  your part to come out to them. For how can evangelical Christians
                  who are gay come out to their church without risking the loss of
                  family and friends? What incentive is there for them to share in a
                  potentially hostile environment? Which of us ever wants to invite
                  rejection and misunderstanding into our lives? Obviously the honest
                  and upright way you've chosen to deal with them speaks much about
                  your own integrity boldness and courage. All honorable, respect
                  worthy and noble attributes by any standard of measure.

                  On the same token it also requires courage for evangelical pastors
                  and others to change their minds on homosexuality when to do so
                  could very well mean their economic and social ruin. Despite the
                  fact that Christianity is often seen by the world as for the "weak,"
                  for "sissies" and for "cowards," I find the opposite to be true.
                  Real Christianity and the way people on both sides of the argument
                  choose to deal with and respond to this issue, clearly separates the
                  boys from the men. Obviously, my brother, you're among the camp of
                  the latter. I take my hat off to you!

                  --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > <<I guess I've isolated myself in pro-gay circles and have not
                  > maintained any meaningful relationships with my "anti-gay
                  Christian"
                  > friends.>>
                  >
                  > I have personally worked really hard to maintain some of these
                  > friendships. It has been important to me to do so, as these people
                  > represent an important part of my history, and therefore of who I
                  am.
                  > Not all have chosen to reciprocate, and I must respect that
                  choice.
                  > But I have found that my refusal to apologise or justify myself
                  has left
                  > many of them unable to challenge me.
                  > I always enjoy the opportunity for debate if people wish to do
                  so, but
                  > I have been astounded at the number who have not done so. I
                  believe (and
                  > I may be misguided.) that they realise when they hear my story
                  that they
                  > have little or no recourse, and must re-examine their own stance
                  and
                  > beliefs.
                  > Many have done so, and remain friends, but it has been
                  unsettling to
                  > their own belief-system and choices (which I see as positive and
                  > healthy).
                  > Of course there is always the situation of running into someone
                  whom I
                  > haven't seen since before I 'came out', and I do find this a
                  challenge
                  > every time it happens. It is the anticipation of the shock my
                  friends
                  > will undoubtedly experience that I find a little anxiety-inducing.
                  > However, many, of course, have had journeys of their own, and it
                  is not
                  > a step I have ever regretted taking!
                  > Cheers
                  > Chris
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • nyguy_1225
                  Chris, my apologies for assuming you were a brother and not a sister. It was the result of my own carelesness. We too often get a little Y chromosone heavy
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 30, 2002
                    Chris, my apologies for assuming you were a brother and not a
                    sister. It was the result of my own carelesness. We too often get
                    a little "Y" chromosone heavy around here. :-)

                    --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > <<I guess I've isolated myself in pro-gay circles and have not
                    > maintained any meaningful relationships with my "anti-gay
                    Christian"
                    > friends.>>
                    >
                    > I have personally worked really hard to maintain some of these
                    > friendships. It has been important to me to do so, as these people
                    > represent an important part of my history, and therefore of who I
                    am.
                    > Not all have chosen to reciprocate, and I must respect that
                    choice.
                    > But I have found that my refusal to apologise or justify myself
                    has left
                    > many of them unable to challenge me.
                    > I always enjoy the opportunity for debate if people wish to do
                    so, but
                    > I have been astounded at the number who have not done so. I
                    believe (and
                    > I may be misguided.) that they realise when they hear my story
                    that they
                    > have little or no recourse, and must re-examine their own stance
                    and
                    > beliefs.
                    > Many have done so, and remain friends, but it has been
                    unsettling to
                    > their own belief-system and choices (which I see as positive and
                    > healthy).
                    > Of course there is always the situation of running into someone
                    whom I
                    > haven't seen since before I 'came out', and I do find this a
                    challenge
                    > every time it happens. It is the anticipation of the shock my
                    friends
                    > will undoubtedly experience that I find a little anxiety-inducing.
                    > However, many, of course, have had journeys of their own, and it
                    is not
                    > a step I have ever regretted taking!
                    > Cheers
                    > Chris
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • CHRIS HANSEN
                    ... From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, 1 July 2002 1:51 p.m. To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ExExGayMinistry]
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 1, 2002
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
                      Sent: Monday, 1 July 2002 1:51 p.m.
                      To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Addendum

                      Chris, my apologies for assuming you were a brother and not a
                      sister. It was the result of my own carelesness. We too often get
                      a little "Y" chromosone heavy around here. :-)

                      --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > <<I guess I've isolated myself in pro-gay circles and have not
                      > maintained any meaningful relationships with my "anti-gay
                      Christian"
                      > friends.>>
                      >
                      > I have personally worked really hard to maintain some of these
                      > friendships. It has been important to me to do so, as these people
                      > represent an important part of my history, and therefore of who I
                      am.
                      > Not all have chosen to reciprocate, and I must respect that
                      choice.
                      > But I have found that my refusal to apologise or justify myself
                      has left
                      > many of them unable to challenge me.
                      > I always enjoy the opportunity for debate if people wish to do
                      so, but
                      > I have been astounded at the number who have not done so. I
                      believe (and
                      > I may be misguided.) that they realise when they hear my story
                      that they
                      > have little or no recourse, and must re-examine their own stance
                      and
                      > beliefs.
                      > Many have done so, and remain friends, but it has been
                      unsettling to
                      > their own belief-system and choices (which I see as positive and
                      > healthy).
                      > Of course there is always the situation of running into someone
                      whom I
                      > haven't seen since before I 'came out', and I do find this a
                      challenge
                      > every time it happens. It is the anticipation of the shock my
                      friends
                      > will undoubtedly experience that I find a little anxiety-inducing.
                      > However, many, of course, have had journeys of their own, and it
                      is not
                      > a step I have ever regretted taking!
                      > Cheers
                      > Chris
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • CHRIS HANSEN
                      *laughing* well, no offence taken- if I had a dollar for every time that happened I d be typing this on a new computer!!! Cheers Chris in New Zealand ... From:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 1, 2002
                        *laughing* well, no offence taken- if I had a dollar for every time that
                        happened I'd be typing this on a new computer!!!
                        Cheers
                        Chris in New Zealand

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
                        Sent: Monday, 1 July 2002 1:51 p.m.
                        To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Addendum

                        Chris, my apologies for assuming you were a brother and not a
                        sister. It was the result of my own carelesness. We too often get
                        a little "Y" chromosone heavy around here. :-)

                        --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Chris H" <itschris@r...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > <<I guess I've isolated myself in pro-gay circles and have not
                        > maintained any meaningful relationships with my "anti-gay
                        Christian"
                        > friends.>>
                        >
                        > I have personally worked really hard to maintain some of these
                        > friendships. It has been important to me to do so, as these people
                        > represent an important part of my history, and therefore of who I
                        am.
                        > Not all have chosen to reciprocate, and I must respect that
                        choice.
                        > But I have found that my refusal to apologise or justify myself
                        has left
                        > many of them unable to challenge me.
                        > I always enjoy the opportunity for debate if people wish to do
                        so, but
                        > I have been astounded at the number who have not done so. I
                        believe (and
                        > I may be misguided.) that they realise when they hear my story
                        that they
                        > have little or no recourse, and must re-examine their own stance
                        and
                        > beliefs.
                        > Many have done so, and remain friends, but it has been
                        unsettling to
                        > their own belief-system and choices (which I see as positive and
                        > healthy).
                        > Of course there is always the situation of running into someone
                        whom I
                        > haven't seen since before I 'came out', and I do find this a
                        challenge
                        > every time it happens. It is the anticipation of the shock my
                        friends
                        > will undoubtedly experience that I find a little anxiety-inducing.
                        > However, many, of course, have had journeys of their own, and it
                        is not
                        > a step I have ever regretted taking!
                        > Cheers
                        > Chris
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        exexgayministry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to thew.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • BearJER@juno.com
                        Hi again. I agree with the gyst of what you said. To be honest, even though I believe God accepts me just the way I am, I am still one of those who don t
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 2, 2002
                          Hi again. I agree with the gyst of what you said. To be honest, even
                          though I believe God accepts me just the way I am, I am still one of
                          those who don't know if God wants us to accept homosexuality. The
                          scriptures that you and others seem to explain in another way, I have
                          great difficulty just explaining them away. But I do take great comfort
                          from the apostle Paul's understanding when he said, "Blessed is the man
                          to whom the Lord will not impute sin." So, even if something is wrong
                          (i.e. homosexual behavior), God still looks on the heart and understands
                          and does not reckon it as sin to the person who is truly convinced
                          otherwise and is otherwise serving God with the knowledge he has. I just
                          need more convincing that God really indeed wants us to embrace our
                          homosexuality in the light of scripture.

                          Would love to dialog with you on this sometime.

                          Jerry in Michigan

                          On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:00:12 -0000 nyguy_1225 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                          writes:
                          > Again, I think we need to make a distinction between gay Christians
                          > who are thoroughly evangelical in their theological position and who
                          >
                          > hold a high (or the highest possible) view of Christ and the Bible
                          > and those who do not.
                          >
                          > For evangelicals this is not simply a matter of "hiding." The
                          > antipathy that evangelicals display toward gay people is not hatred
                          >
                          > directed at us as gay people, but moral disgust directed at
                          > homosexual behavior. Evangelical churches reject homosexual practice
                          >
                          > on biblical grounds. Their demonstration of disapproval towards
                          > this "sin" is a legitimate expression of Christian opinion on a
                          > contemporary ethical issue.
                          >
                          > Therefore gay Christians who are evangelical in their theological
                          > position and who hold a high view of Christ and the Bible should
                          > focus on encouraging and welcoming opportunities for a constructive,
                          >
                          > even-handed discussion of the relevant pastoral theology and textual
                          >
                          > exegesis. This is about far more than simply "proof-texting" a few
                          >
                          > isolated passages of Scripture. This is what yielded the recent
                          > Vancouver victory and this is what has produced the fruit and other
                          >
                          > favorable changes that I have witness daily. The goal is to re-open
                          >
                          > the argument. And once the argument has been re-opened, with time
                          > and patience incredible things happen! The Vancouver victory is
                          > only one such example. We need to invest in these people. We need
                          >
                          > to let our light shine. We need to know the Word of God. And even
                          >
                          > more important than knowing the Bible, we need to know how to apply
                          >
                          > it in love. Because knowledge in and of itself will only make us
                          > arrogant. But love will build up the body (1 Corinthians 8:1). I
                          > have never seen confrontative methods yield fruit in this
                          > controversy.
                          >
                          > Gay people who are not Christian and/or evangelical and who do not
                          > hold a high view of Christ and the Bible will not be well-versed in
                          >
                          > Scripture (i.e. they will not know it from anything more than a
                          > simple tangential level) as this is simply not a priority for them.
                          >
                          > And therefore, they will not be well-equipped to do much more than
                          > make a lot of noise. My experience has been that the latter only
                          > serves undermine our desired goal, not further it. If you truly
                          > want to know how to reach them and what works, this is what I have
                          > found effective.
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >

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                        • nyguy_1225
                          Needless to say, I, for one, would be happy to. You may want to begin with some material by Roy Clements.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 3, 2002
                            <<Would love to dialog with you on this sometime.>>

                            Needless to say, I, for one, would be happy to. You may want to
                            begin with some material by Roy Clements. For 20 years Roy was
                            senior pastor of one of England's leading evangelical churches. He
                            was one of Britain's most popular preachers and teachers, a much
                            sought after conference speaker in Britain and around the globe and
                            a widely read author. I know Roy personally and he's considered one
                            of the best expository bible teachers in the English language. A
                            couple of years ago, Roy came to terms with and chose to be honest
                            about being homosexual. His web site is chock full of excellent
                            resources. You may want to begin with "Why Evangelicals Must Think
                            Again" and "Letter to Michael" (both found under the `essays' link)
                            at: www.royclements.co.uk

                            Roy's site is just one of many places where rich material can be
                            found. Respected Christian scholars like Dr. Helmut Thielicke and
                            Dr. Lewis Smedes, to site just two, have been outspoken about
                            homosexuality for years. Smedes spent the last 50 years studying
                            the Bible, is retired minister in the Christian Reformed Church,
                            former ethics professor at Fuller Theological Seminary and the
                            author of over a dozen best-selling Christian books. (In honor to
                            Smedes and his impeccable integrity and work, Fuller recently
                            initiated the "Lewis B. Smedes Honorary Chair of Christian Ethics" --
                            an honor very rarely bestowed upon people while they're still
                            alive.) A marvelous and extremely well-written essay by Dr. Smedes
                            titled "Like the Widensss of the Sea" in which he compares the
                            Christian church's former stand on divorce and remarriage with its
                            current stand on homosexuality is also available on the Internet at:
                            http://www.soulforce.org/lewissmedes.html

                            Why not begin with these three pieces and then let's talk!
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