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VANCOUVER VOTES TO APPROVE SAME SEX UNIONS

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  • nyguy_1225
    Norm, Regarding the series of exchanges we had a short time ago in which I maintained the times they are a changin... I share the following [portion of an]
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 19, 2002
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      Norm,
      Regarding the series of exchanges we had a short time ago in which I
      maintained "the times they are a changin..." I share the following
      [portion of an] article below that a friend of mine in Vancouver
      sent announcing a marvelous victory in his church this past
      weekend. My friend worked long and hard to educate the churches up
      there and here now is the fruit of his labor.
      =============================================
      B.C. ANGLICAN DIOCESE APPROVES SAME-SEX BLESSINGS
      THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
      Saturday, June 15, 2002

      VANCOUVER, B.C. -- Anglican church leaders from around southwestern
      British Columbia voted Saturday to begin blessing gay and lesbian
      unions -- the first Anglican diocese in Canada to take such a step.

      The motion was passed with 215 in favor and 129 against in voting by
      top clergy in the Diocese of New Westminster, which includes 80
      parishes. The blessing in New Westminster churches would not be
      legally binding, and the gay union motion passed Saturday includes
      a "conscience" clause which allows dissenting clergy to decline to
      perform the ritual.
      ===============================================
      On a similar note, there are also a number of senior pastors in
      various churches right here in New York City who are moving toward
      being able to marry same sex couples. It's quite amazing! The
      times they are indeed a changing...
    • nojam75
      Thanks for sharing such encouraging news! Since we are on the topic of protests, how was your friend able to educate the churches in BC? I assume your friend
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 19, 2002
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        Thanks for sharing such encouraging news! Since we are on the topic
        of protests, how was your friend able to educate the churches in BC?
        I assume your friend had to deal with church members and leaders
        opposed to the change.

        - Norm!

        --- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > Norm,
        > Regarding the series of exchanges we had a short time ago in which
        I
        > maintained "the times they are a changin..." I share the following
        > [portion of an] article below that a friend of mine in Vancouver
        > sent announcing a marvelous victory in his church this past
        > weekend. My friend worked long and hard to educate the churches up
        > there and here now is the fruit of his labor.
        > =============================================
        > B.C. ANGLICAN DIOCESE APPROVES SAME-SEX BLESSINGS
        > THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
        > Saturday, June 15, 2002
        >
        > VANCOUVER, B.C. -- Anglican church leaders from around southwestern
        > British Columbia voted Saturday to begin blessing gay and lesbian
        > unions -- the first Anglican diocese in Canada to take such a step.
        >
        > The motion was passed with 215 in favor and 129 against in voting
        by
        > top clergy in the Diocese of New Westminster, which includes 80
        > parishes. The blessing in New Westminster churches would not be
        > legally binding, and the gay union motion passed Saturday includes
        > a "conscience" clause which allows dissenting clergy to decline to
        > perform the ritual.
        > ===============================================
        > On a similar note, there are also a number of senior pastors in
        > various churches right here in New York City who are moving toward
        > being able to marry same sex couples. It's quite amazing! The
        > times they are indeed a changing...
      • nyguy_1225
        Yes, he most certainly did. He is president of Integrity Vancouver, a group representing gay Anglicans. (He was actually quoted in the article I posted the
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 20, 2002
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          Yes, he most certainly did. He is president of Integrity Vancouver,
          a group representing gay Anglicans. (He was actually quoted in the
          article I posted the clip of.) I think there are a couple of
          things that help him to be effective. First and foremost, he is
          well-versed in Scripture. Therefore, he is well-armed to discuss
          what the bible does and does not say about homosexuality.

          He has also learned that it is unrealistic, if not impossible, to
          take people who have been taught all of their lives that the Bible
          speaks against all expressions of homosexuality and expect to turn
          them around in a few discussions (or by "acting up" as so many of us
          are inclined to do). At best, one can hope to re-open the
          argument. But once the argument has been re-opened groundwork is
          then laid for ongoing discussion. Then he does it intelligently,
          lovingly and patiently (the best things grow gradually and strongly;
          quick is not very lasting) and not with anger, arrogance and/or
          malice. I think this goes a very long way. The more impatient I am
          with people the less I can expect to be effective.


          --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
          > Thanks for sharing such encouraging news! Since we are on the
          topic
          > of protests, how was your friend able to educate the churches in
          BC?
          > I assume your friend had to deal with church members and leaders
          > opposed to the change.
          >
          > - Norm!
          >
          > --- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
          > > Norm,
          > > Regarding the series of exchanges we had a short time ago in
          which
          > I
          > > maintained "the times they are a changin..." I share the
          following
          > > [portion of an] article below that a friend of mine in Vancouver
          > > sent announcing a marvelous victory in his church this past
          > > weekend. My friend worked long and hard to educate the churches
          up
          > > there and here now is the fruit of his labor.
          > > =============================================
          > > B.C. ANGLICAN DIOCESE APPROVES SAME-SEX BLESSINGS
          > > THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
          > > Saturday, June 15, 2002
          > >
          > > VANCOUVER, B.C. -- Anglican church leaders from around
          southwestern
          > > British Columbia voted Saturday to begin blessing gay and
          lesbian
          > > unions -- the first Anglican diocese in Canada to take such a
          step.
          > >
          > > The motion was passed with 215 in favor and 129 against in
          voting
          > by
          > > top clergy in the Diocese of New Westminster, which includes 80
          > > parishes. The blessing in New Westminster churches would not be
          > > legally binding, and the gay union motion passed Saturday
          includes
          > > a "conscience" clause which allows dissenting clergy to decline
          to
          > > perform the ritual.
          > > ===============================================
          > > On a similar note, there are also a number of senior pastors in
          > > various churches right here in New York City who are moving
          toward
          > > being able to marry same sex couples. It's quite amazing! The
          > > times they are indeed a changing...
        • CHRIS HANSEN
          I m not a proponent of genetic engineering, but I d like this guy to be cloned... Cheers Chris in New Zealand ... From: nyguy_1225
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 20, 2002
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            I'm not a proponent of genetic engineering, but I'd like this guy to be
            cloned...
            Cheers
            Chris in New Zealand

            -----Original Message-----
            From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
            Sent: Thursday, 20 June 2002 10:38 p.m.
            To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: VANCOUVER VOTES TO APPROVE SAME SEX UNIONS

            Yes, he most certainly did. He is president of Integrity Vancouver,
            a group representing gay Anglicans. (He was actually quoted in the
            article I posted the clip of.) I think there are a couple of
            things that help him to be effective. First and foremost, he is
            well-versed in Scripture. Therefore, he is well-armed to discuss
            what the bible does and does not say about homosexuality.

            He has also learned that it is unrealistic, if not impossible, to
            take people who have been taught all of their lives that the Bible
            speaks against all expressions of homosexuality and expect to turn
            them around in a few discussions (or by "acting up" as so many of us
            are inclined to do). At best, one can hope to re-open the
            argument. But once the argument has been re-opened groundwork is
            then laid for ongoing discussion. Then he does it intelligently,
            lovingly and patiently (the best things grow gradually and strongly;
            quick is not very lasting) and not with anger, arrogance and/or
            malice. I think this goes a very long way. The more impatient I am
            with people the less I can expect to be effective.


            --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
            > Thanks for sharing such encouraging news! Since we are on the
            topic
            > of protests, how was your friend able to educate the churches in
            BC?
            > I assume your friend had to deal with church members and leaders
            > opposed to the change.
            >
            > - Norm!
            >
            > --- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > > Norm,
            > > Regarding the series of exchanges we had a short time ago in
            which
            > I
            > > maintained "the times they are a changin..." I share the
            following
            > > [portion of an] article below that a friend of mine in Vancouver
            > > sent announcing a marvelous victory in his church this past
            > > weekend. My friend worked long and hard to educate the churches
            up
            > > there and here now is the fruit of his labor.
            > > =============================================
            > > B.C. ANGLICAN DIOCESE APPROVES SAME-SEX BLESSINGS
            > > THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
            > > Saturday, June 15, 2002
            > >
            > > VANCOUVER, B.C. -- Anglican church leaders from around
            southwestern
            > > British Columbia voted Saturday to begin blessing gay and
            lesbian
            > > unions -- the first Anglican diocese in Canada to take such a
            step.
            > >
            > > The motion was passed with 215 in favor and 129 against in
            voting
            > by
            > > top clergy in the Diocese of New Westminster, which includes 80
            > > parishes. The blessing in New Westminster churches would not be
            > > legally binding, and the gay union motion passed Saturday
            includes
            > > a "conscience" clause which allows dissenting clergy to decline
            to
            > > perform the ritual.
            > > ===============================================
            > > On a similar note, there are also a number of senior pastors in
            > > various churches right here in New York City who are moving
            toward
            > > being able to marry same sex couples. It's quite amazing! The
            > > times they are indeed a changing...


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          • nyguy_1225
            Cloned??!! If these are attributes you value and aspire you can have them too. He wasn t born the man that he is. He became the man that he is. Good men
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 21, 2002
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              Cloned??!! If these are attributes you value and aspire you can
              have them too. He wasn't born the man that he is. He became the
              man that he is. "Good" men (gay or straight) are not cloned or
              found -- they're made. We all have the capacity to become more
              loving, more caring, more sensitive, more patient and to learn to
              accomplish things more effectively.

              It goes back to something we discussed in April. One tends to
              either view themselves as a "guest" or a "host" of creation. If one
              sees oneself as a "guest" of creation, there will be a tendency to
              claim everything for yourself and feel the world, the church and
              everything and/or everyone owes you. It is attitudes such as this
              that breed arrogance. But if one sees oneself as a "host" then one
              will be in a much better position to understand and accept that
              there is a responsibility that goes along with being here. "To whom
              much is given much will be expected," Jesus reminded us (Luke
              12:48).

              In and around Romans 14, Paul addresses a church embroiled in
              disputes and controversies over behavior and lifestyle. The church
              is made up of Christians he sees as "weak-in-faith" and Christians
              who are "strong-in-faith." He clearly identifies himself among
              the "strong." He sees the "weak-in-faith" as those who are less
              able or willing to trust in God's grace alone, without adding
              restrictive rules and regulations about diets and days as
              requirements for proper Christian lifestyle.

              Paul says that the stronger Christians should welcome the less
              mature into the fellowship. And he says the "strong" should welcome
              them without doing so only to argue and force them to change their
              views. In Paul's day, the "weak-in-faith" was in the minority. In
              our day -- so far as homosexuality is concerned -- the "weak-in-
              faith" is the majority. And according to Paul, the majority should
              not try to use its power position to impose its view on the
              minority. In our day, that means that the anti-gay Christians
              should not force Christian gay people to adopt an anti-gay doctrine
              or else find themselves excluded from the fellowship. But the
              opposite is also true. The broad-minded minority should not
              practice aggression against the narrow-minded majority.


              --- In exexgayministry@y..., "CHRIS HANSEN" <itschris@r...> wrote:
              > I'm not a proponent of genetic engineering, but I'd like this guy
              to be
              > cloned...
              > Cheers
              > Chris in New Zealand
              >
            • CHRIS HANSEN
              ... is fantastic news, and a wonderful achievement. I am thankful to God for the efforts and sacrifices of those who ensure these things become possible...
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 21, 2002
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                >>I'd like this guy to be cloned... - my somewhat clumsy attempt to say that
                is fantastic news, and a wonderful achievement. I am thankful to God for the
                efforts and sacrifices of those who ensure these things become possible...
                Chris
                -----Original Message-----
                From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
                Sent: Friday, 21 June 2002 11:34 p.m.
                To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: VANCOUVER VOTES TO APPROVE SAME SEX UNIONS

                Cloned??!! If these are attributes you value and aspire you can
                have them too. He wasn't born the man that he is. He became the
                man that he is. "Good" men (gay or straight) are not cloned or
                found -- they're made. We all have the capacity to become more
                loving, more caring, more sensitive, more patient and to learn to
                accomplish things more effectively.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • nyguy_1225
                Amen. And how wonderfully encouraging to see things continue to change all around as people begin to take a fresh look at what the Bible does (and does not)
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 21, 2002
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                  Amen. And how wonderfully encouraging to see things continue to
                  change all around as people begin to take a fresh look at what the
                  Bible does (and does not) say about homosexuality.

                  --- In exexgayministry@y..., "CHRIS HANSEN" <itschris@r...> wrote:
                  > >>I'd like this guy to be cloned... - my somewhat clumsy attempt
                  to say that
                  > is fantastic news, and a wonderful achievement. I am thankful to
                  God for the
                  > efforts and sacrifices of those who ensure these things become
                  possible...
                  > Chris
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: nyguy_1225 [mailto:no_reply@y...]
                  > Sent: Friday, 21 June 2002 11:34 p.m.
                  > To: exexgayministry@y...
                  > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Re: VANCOUVER VOTES TO APPROVE SAME SEX
                  UNIONS
                  >
                  > Cloned??!! If these are attributes you value and aspire you can
                  > have them too. He wasn't born the man that he is. He became the
                  > man that he is. "Good" men (gay or straight) are not cloned or
                  > found -- they're made. We all have the capacity to become more
                  > loving, more caring, more sensitive, more patient and to learn to
                  > accomplish things more effectively.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • nojam75
                  ... welcome ... In ... should ... doctrine ... Once again, an excellent point. I had not thought of the gay debate in this way before. This perspective
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 23, 2002
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                    --- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                    > ...
                    > Paul says that the stronger Christians should welcome the less
                    > mature into the fellowship. And he says the "strong" should
                    welcome
                    > them without doing so only to argue and force them to change their
                    > views. In Paul's day, the "weak-in-faith" was in the minority.
                    In
                    > our day -- so far as homosexuality is concerned -- the "weak-in-
                    > faith" is the majority. And according to Paul, the majority
                    should
                    > not try to use its power position to impose its view on the
                    > minority. In our day, that means that the anti-gay Christians
                    > should not force Christian gay people to adopt an anti-gay
                    doctrine
                    > or else find themselves excluded from the fellowship. But the
                    > opposite is also true. The broad-minded minority should not
                    > practice aggression against the narrow-minded majority.

                    Once again, an excellent point. I had not thought of the gay debate
                    in this way before. This perspective suggests "broad-minded"
                    Christians should patiently mentor anti-gay Christians.

                    It is difficult to have a welcoming attitude when anti-gay
                    Christians actively fight against gay rights. How do we witness to
                    those "weak-in-faith" Christians who carry so much power? How do
                    we, as a broad-minded minority, defend our membership in the
                    fellowship without being seen as aggressive?

                    Maybe we are too quick to politicize homosexuality. Maybe this is
                    something that needs to be done an individual basis -- person to
                    person.

                    - Norm!
                  • nyguy_1225
                    You said:
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 23, 2002
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                      You said: <<How do we witness to those "weak-in-faith" Christians
                      who carry so much power? How do we, as a broad-minded minority,
                      defend our membership in the fellowship without being seen as
                      aggressive?>>

                      Reply: I think this was directly addressed in post #2334.

                      You said: <<It is difficult to have a welcoming attitude when anti-
                      gay Christians actively fight against gay rights.>>

                      Reply: Yes, this is true. But it is equally difficult, if not more
                      so, for the anti-gay Christians to have a welcoming attitude when
                      gay Christians practice aggression in their means of trying to get
                      their point across. I thought we're supposed to be the "broad-
                      minded" ones??!! Where's OUR love? Where's OUR patience? Where's
                      OUR fruit of the spirit?

                      As we know, there are all sorts of evangelicals. As one well-known
                      evangelical professor said: "Once past a shared commitment to a
                      supernatural gospel, evangelicals are all over the place
                      theologically." Evangelical identity has come to embrace such a
                      wide range of theological options. And so too are there all sorts
                      of gays. There's this infantile notion that there is such a thing
                      as a gay community and that we all feel and think the same way about
                      everything. Most gay people really don't spend all their free time
                      doing designer drugs in the urban club scene. And the self-
                      appointed politically-correct "gay leadership" doesn't speak for
                      most gay people.

                      The fact that the word `gay' epitomizes, as so many understand it, a
                      lifestyle characterized by the reckless hedonistic pursuit of sexual
                      fulfillment involving promiscuity, exploitation and abuse, causes
                      endless misunderstanding. But the fact remains there are many gay
                      people who do live a lifestyle characterized by the reckless
                      hedonistic pursuit of sexual fulfillment at all costs. How then are
                      anti-gay Christians supposed to separate this when their experience
                      of the people who fight for "gay rights" (many of whom are CHRISTIAN
                      Gay people) consist largely of aggressive, forceful, belligerent,
                      angry, antagonistic and/or hostile means?

                      It seems to me there should be a discernable difference between the
                      communication methods used by gay people who seek Christ and the
                      methods used by gay people who do not. If we make it
                      indistinguishable for the anti-gay Christians to discern any
                      difference between the two then perhaps we need to consider taking
                      the log out of our eye before we can see clear to remove the
                      splinter out of theirs.
                    • nojam75
                      ... experience ... CHRISTIAN ... I see your point and I ve already stated that I m not in favor of intrusive, disrespectful tactics. ... the ... Again I think
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 25, 2002
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                        --- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > ....How then are
                        > anti-gay Christians supposed to separate this when their
                        experience
                        > of the people who fight for "gay rights" (many of whom are
                        CHRISTIAN
                        > Gay people) consist largely of aggressive, forceful, belligerent,
                        > angry, antagonistic and/or hostile means?

                        I see your point and I've already stated that I'm not in favor of
                        intrusive, disrespectful tactics.

                        > It seems to me there should be a discernable difference between
                        the
                        > communication methods used by gay people who seek Christ and the
                        > methods used by gay people who do not. If we make it
                        > indistinguishable for the anti-gay Christians to discern any
                        > difference between the two then perhaps we need to consider taking
                        > the log out of our eye before we can see clear to remove the
                        > splinter out of theirs.

                        Again I think I understand your point. It seems to me though, that
                        protests like Mel White's Soulforce seem to be more interested in
                        getting media attention than attempting to truly persuade or
                        dialogue those the protests are against.

                        - Norm!
                      • nyguy_1225
                        ... belligerent, ... Yes, but unfortunately so many others are. And sadly, I think that it serves to undermine their/our cause more often than help it. ...
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 26, 2002
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                          --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In exexgayministry@y..., nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          > > ....How then are
                          > > anti-gay Christians supposed to separate this when their
                          > experience
                          > > of the people who fight for "gay rights" (many of whom are
                          > CHRISTIAN
                          > > Gay people) consist largely of aggressive, forceful,
                          belligerent,
                          > > angry, antagonistic and/or hostile means?
                          >
                          > I see your point and I've already stated that I'm not in favor of
                          > intrusive, disrespectful tactics.

                          Yes, but unfortunately so many others are. And sadly, I think that
                          it serves to undermine their/our cause more often than help it.

                          > > It seems to me there should be a discernable difference between
                          > the
                          > > communication methods used by gay people who seek Christ and the
                          > > methods used by gay people who do not. If we make it
                          > > indistinguishable for the anti-gay Christians to discern any
                          > > difference between the two then perhaps we need to consider
                          taking
                          > > the log out of our own eye before we can see clear to remove
                          > > splinter from theirs.
                          >
                          > Again I think I understand your point. It seems to me though,
                          that
                          > protests like Mel White's Soulforce seem to be more interested in
                          > getting media attention than attempting to truly persuade or
                          > dialogue those the protests are against.

                          There are many who would agree with you.


                          >
                          > - Norm!
                        • David
                          protests like Mel White s Soulforce seem to be more interested in getting media attention than attempting to truly persuade or dialogue those the protests
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 26, 2002
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                            " protests like Mel White's Soulforce seem to be more interested in
                            getting media attention than attempting to truly persuade or
                            dialogue those the protests are against."

                            This may be partially true but media attention is very important.
                            Public opinion is very much influenced by the media, as the
                            mainstream churches become more open to us the impression is given
                            that Christianity in general is open to us. Something like this
                            shows that is certainly not true. SBC showed it's true colors both
                            in its' reaction to the protests and the controversial statements
                            they made about Islam. If groups like SBC are not confronted they
                            usually manage to keep a pretty face on. We may never have dialogue
                            with them but they know they can't hide anything from us either.
                            A variety of methods are necessary for us to continue making
                            progress in our struggle and that at times will include
                            confrontation. Soulforce at least is commited to nonviolence, others
                            may not be.

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