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Re: Ex-Gay on TBN today

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  • nyguy_1225
    ...
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 23, 2002
      --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
      <<I've always wondered why there are not more ex-gays on TBN.
      Considering how many Christians are obsessed with homosexuality, one
      would think a prominant ex-gay televangelist would be strongly
      supported. I have noticed a few features on homosexuality on Pat
      Robertson's _700 Club_ program, James Kennedy's television program,
      and even Carman(sp?), but these programs tend to focus only on
      opposing the "gay agenda" and turning gays straight. Ex-gays are
      often only used to counter the gay agenda, but even anti-gay
      Christians don't seem to want too much focus on ex-gays. I suspect
      that anti-gay Christians are still reluctant to admit there are
      homosexual Christians and they may be hesitant to invest in another
      John Paulk.>>

      I agree. I think the fundamental reason why you don't see as
      many "ex-gay" on television anymore is that the "ex-gay" movement
      has lost so much credibility in recent years. Even "anti-gay" folks
      are starting to look at these ministries with increased skepticism.
      During my "ex-gay" days I too appeared on the "700 Club" as did a
      number of the guys who were in ministry with me. They loved us!
      Every couple of months they pumped out another one of our
      testimonies. They would fly us down to Virginia Beach, put us up in
      a hotel, wine us and dine us, etc. They have all of this air time
      to fill every day and the idea that that there were all of
      these "former homosexuals" out there willing to testify that God
      had "set us free" was music to their ears.

      The defections however have been widespread and they know it.
      They're quite well aware that most of the people that have appeared
      on their show(s) have ultimately come to their senses and realized
      that the "ex-gay" myth is really a lie. As was so poignantly
      pointed out in the Sunday Chicago Times article that you posted some
      time ago "As a result of the [multitude of] defections, the strategy
      of Exodus and other groups appears to have changed dramatically.
      Rather than emphasize heterosexuality as a goal, most ex-gay
      ministries simply push a cessation of homosexual activity." And as
      the former Exodus director Bob Davies, himself announced in an
      Exodus press release sometime after the John Paulk fiasco, "I
      believe that, as an organization, we need to re-examine other issues
      [including] our use of terms such as 'healing' and 'change'."

      Don't you think the Christian TV producers are all well aware of all
      of this? They need to protect their credibility too. When I
      appeared on the "700 Club," Pat Robertson said I should go
      national. I doubt very much he'd feel that way today.
    • calldon2k
      ... organizations ... when ... That s because the homos are taking over the country and destroying our families...or so I was told twenty years ago. ...
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 23, 2002
        --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
        > I know, it seems that whenever one of these "Christian"
        organizations
        > runs low on funds they are quick to send out the old "gay agenda"
        > mailers. Pat Robertson is also notorious for using the gay card
        when
        > running low on cash.

        That's because the homos are taking over the country and destroying
        our families...or so I was told twenty years ago.

        > But it TBN is relatively quiet on
        > the topic (not that I'm complaining). I don't monitor TBN, beyond
        > flipping past it during my channel-surfing. But its seems the 700
        > Club and James Kennedy devote more time to anti-gay broadcasts than
        > TBN.

        Well...TBN would at least have to take Queen-o...er...Dino off the
        air, and most of the gospel music shows if they actually spoke
        against homosexuality...and meant it. But then they would also have
        to consider the adultery issue. John 2-wives Hagee, John Jacobs,
        founder of the Power Team evangelism ministry, Michael can't-keep-it-
        in-my-pants English all are big TBN stars. Richard Roberts would
        have to repent as would his father and big-time healer, Oral Roberts,
        for the way he promoted the break-up of Richard and Patti. He sent
        Richard and Evelyn out of town for a few days while he had a talk
        with Patti. "Patti, why don't the two of you just get a divorce?
        I'll just tell my partners you couldn't make it, and
        we'll let the
        chips fall where they may" (Ashes to God. Patti Roberts. Word Books
        Publisher, Waco, TX p129, 1983.) Ten months later, Richard made the
        same "till death do us part" vows to Lindsey that he made to Patti.
        And let's not forget Sandi I-split-two-marriages Patty. She is still
        big on the TBN broadcasts. I always wonder what she says to Mrs.
        Peslis about stealing her husband while they were on tour?

        > You mentioned that you spent some time at TBN, is homosexuality a
        > taboo topic?

        I didn't work at TBN. I worked with the big church in Irving, Tx.,
        Calvary Temple, that sold the land to TBN for their new broadcast
        center...ya know, the one with the gaudy set. Ben Davis said it
        looks like they hired WalMart to recreate Liberace's living room!

        After planning to move and after publicizing the move so they could
        raise money, they had a few shows from Calvary Temple. I was playing
        piano there at the time and did some of the pre-show music, praise
        and worship stuff to pump-up the crowd before the REAL "Paul and Jan
        Show" started.

        >Could it be that TBN is relatively quiet about
        > homosexuality because they are reluctant to deal with some of their
        > own closet cases? (Just look at some of these guys' wardrobs?)

        Fags are everywhere in AG churches. Gosh, they are the most
        talented. A straight-person would never have a mirrored piano with
        dancing waters and colored lights behind it!!!

        Rumor has it that Jan was noticed in a gay piano-bar in Dallas called
        Cedar-Springs After Dark. Some friends told me they saw her there.
        But I don't know for sure.

        Tammy Faye was in Dallas last summer for a Gay Pride rally and later
        appeared live at a showing of her movie "The Eyes of Tammy Faye" in a
        local arts theatre.

        That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
      • Steve Boese
        calldon2k said:
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 23, 2002
          calldon2k said:
          << After planning to move and after publicizing the move so they could raise
          money, they had a few shows from Calvary Temple. I was playing piano there
          at the time and did some of the pre-show music, praise and worship stuff to
          pump-up the crowd before the REAL "Paul and Jan Show" started. >>

          I was curious about the history of TBN's Texas facility -- was it originally
          touted as a the new headquarters or a partial replacement for the palaces in
          Santa Ana?

          --Steve
        • nojam75
          ... have ... Wow, thanks for dishing the TBN dirt (and I thought MCC gossip was nasty). From your info, it would seem that they have alot of house cleaning to
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 23, 2002
            --- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
            > Well...TBN would at least have to take Queen-o...er...Dino off the
            > air, and most of the gospel music shows if they actually spoke
            > against homosexuality...and meant it. But then they would also
            have
            > to consider the adultery issue.

            Wow, thanks for dishing the TBN dirt (and I thought MCC gossip was
            nasty). From your info, it would seem that they have alot of house
            cleaning to do. If they ever do start reforming, I bet
            homosexuality will be one of the first issues brought up.



            > Rumor has it that Jan was noticed in a gay piano-bar in Dallas
            called
            > Cedar-Springs After Dark. Some friends told me they saw her
            there.
            > But I don't know for sure.

            That's okay if you don't know for sure. Afterall, who could pick
            Jan out of a drag queen line-up?


            > Tammy Faye was in Dallas last summer for a Gay Pride rally and
            later
            > appeared live at a showing of her movie "The Eyes of Tammy Faye"
            in a
            > local arts theatre.

            I thought "The Eyes of Tammy Faye" was great. I had no idea the Jim
            Bakker founded the 700 Club and TBN. Although, Tammy Faye's recent
            revelation as a gay advocate is admirable, I can't help but be
            suspicious that it only came about because she hit rock bottom and
            needs the gay attention to revive her career.

            - Norm! (nojam75@...)
          • calldon2k
            ... the ... I think that TBN throws alot of rocks...and most of those who have TBN programs do also. But they really need to look in their own back- yards
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 24, 2002
              --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
              > --- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
              > > Well...TBN would at least have to take Queen-o...er...Dino off
              the
              > > air, and most of the gospel music shows if they actually spoke
              > > against homosexuality...and meant it. But then they would also
              > have
              > > to consider the adultery issue.
              >
              > Wow, thanks for dishing the TBN dirt (and I thought MCC gossip was
              > nasty). From your info, it would seem that they have alot of house
              > cleaning to do. If they ever do start reforming, I bet
              > homosexuality will be one of the first issues brought up.

              I think that TBN throws alot of rocks...and most of those who have
              TBN programs do also. But they really need to look in their own back-
              yards before they begin a blanket condemnation of multitudes of
              folks, many of whom are believers!

              > > Rumor has it that Jan was noticed in a gay piano-bar in Dallas
              > called
              > > Cedar-Springs After Dark. Some friends told me they saw her
              > there.
              > > But I don't know for sure.
              >
              > That's okay if you don't know for sure. Afterall, who could pick
              > Jan out of a drag queen line-up?

              One of my friends, a former Minister of Music from L.A. and CCM
              artist was the one who saw her there. But I can't say that in
              public! Understand?

              > I thought "The Eyes of Tammy Faye" was great. I had no idea the
              Jim
              > Bakker founded the 700 Club and TBN. Although, Tammy Faye's recent
              > revelation as a gay advocate is admirable, I can't help but be
              > suspicious that it only came about because she hit rock bottom and
              > needs the gay attention to revive her career.

              I didn't see the movie yet but I have read enough reviews by others
              to know that the movie was not very accurate in many areas. Jim did
              NOT start TBN. He actually began with Pat Robertson and (because of
              conflicts with Pat) later moved to L.A. to join Paul and Jan who were
              already in the beginning stages of TBN. Jim was there bit was not
              really a founder.

              But again, Jim had conflicts with the leader (Paul and Jan) so he
              left another ministry (TBN) to begin his own, PTL.

              Being from Tennessee, in the 1970s we had no knowlege of TBN, since
              they were West Coast and since satelites were not yet operating. The
              first few years of the PTL-Club were on video for TWO hours with a
              local break in the middle. IN the closing credits, there was a
              credit something like, "This program sponsored by the Trinity
              Broadcasting Network." All I knew at the time was that Trinity BN
              was a west coast group.

              Then satelite technology arrived...and false teaching and religious
              scam programs were spread all over the world.

              Glory to Bob!

              ====================
            • df260
              - I agree, the Church of God, Cleveland, TN and the A/G are full of gays and lesbians. In 1987 I was at Jimmy Swaggart bible college, the year of Jimmys s
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 24, 2002
                -
                I agree, the Church of God, Cleveland, TN and the A/G are full
                of gays and lesbians. In 1987 I was at Jimmy Swaggart bible college,
                the year of Jimmys's "fall from grace" and there were several there.
                Also at Southwestern A/G and East Coast Bible college. So we are
                indeed everywhere. It's amazing how gays are going to hell but the
                adulters just "fall". Oh well. I hope everyone is doing alright.
                DAvid







                -- In exexgayministry@y..., "Steve Boese" <steve@o...> wrote:
                > calldon2k said:
                > << After planning to move and after publicizing the move so they
                could raise
                > money, they had a few shows from Calvary Temple. I was playing
                piano there
                > at the time and did some of the pre-show music, praise and worship
                stuff to
                > pump-up the crowd before the REAL "Paul and Jan Show" started. >>
                >
                > I was curious about the history of TBN's Texas facility -- was it
                originally
                > touted as a the new headquarters or a partial replacement for the
                palaces in
                > Santa Ana?
                >
                > --Steve
              • nojam75
                ... others ... The Eyes of Tammy Faye seemed pretty self-serving to Tammy Faye in its depiction of the Bakkers involvement in the founding of televangelism.
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 24, 2002
                  --- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  > I didn't see the movie yet but I have read enough reviews by
                  others
                  > to know that the movie was not very accurate in many areas.

                  "The Eyes of Tammy Faye" seemed pretty self-serving to Tammy Faye in
                  its depiction of the Bakkers involvement in the founding of
                  televangelism. But it does make sense that Pat Robertson and the
                  Crouches would want to distance themselves from and downplay the
                  role of the Bakkers.

                  Of course, I can't imagine why anyone would fight over taking credit
                  for televangelism.


                  > Then satelite technology arrived...and false teaching and
                  religious
                  > scam programs were spread all over the world.

                  Praize Je$u$!
                • Joiner Rex
                  ... REPLY: While you may not agree with James Kennedy, TBN and others on the subject of being ex-gay, it is incorrect to think they are all believe what they
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 4, 2002
                    <nojam75@...> wrote:

                    > > Brother, there is too much $$$ involved for them
                    > to change their
                    > > mind now and accept reality. The anti-gay issue
                    > is a real money-
                    > > maker. James Kennedy still uses the issue
                    > regularly for fund-
                    > > raising!

                    REPLY: While you may not agree with James Kennedy,
                    TBN and others on the subject of being ex-gay, it is
                    incorrect to think they are all believe what they
                    believe for the money. That just doesn't make
                    sense,in my opinion. There may be other issues they
                    believe, like the properity message so many teach, but
                    I think you are wrong to raise the money issue in this
                    context.
                    >
                    <nojam75@...> wrote:

                    > I know, it seems that whenever one of these
                    > "Christian" organizations runs low on funds they are
                    quick to send out the old
                    > "gay agenda"
                    > mailers. Pat Robertson is also notorious for using
                    > the gay card when
                    > running low on cash.

                    REPLY: The fact that you put "Christian" in quotes
                    indicates that you may feel these people are not true
                    Christians. You may be guilty of exactly the same
                    thing you accuse them of - that is, not accepting them
                    as brothers and sisters just because they don't see
                    eye to eye with you. Jesus said, "He that is not
                    against us is for us."

                    If you really believe God is ok with your gayness,
                    then how does it please God for you to criticize other
                    sincere Christians, just because they don't believe
                    God wants them to act out homosexual desires?

                    Food for thought, ok?

                    God bless,

                    Jerry in Michigan
                    >
                    > Gay scare tactics are pretty effective in
                    > fundraising with
                    > fundamentalist/conservative Christians. So, it
                    > would seem that as a
                    > money-hungry broadcaster, TBN would be quick to
                    > promote anti-gay and
                    > ex-gay message in its broadcasts. But it TBN is
                    > relatively quiet on
                    > the topic (not that I'm complaining). I don't
                    > monitor TBN, beyond
                    > flipping past it during my channel-surfing. But its
                    > seems the 700
                    > Club and James Kennedy devote more time to anti-gay
                    > broadcasts than
                    > TBN.
                    >
                    > You mentioned that you spent some time at TBN, is
                    > homosexuality a
                    > taboo topic? There have been rumors that secret gay
                    > encounters were
                    > rampant in Jim Bakker's PTL and the Assemblies of
                    > God Church during
                    > the 80s. Could it be that TBN is relatively quiet
                    > about
                    > homosexuality because they are reluctant to deal
                    > with some of their
                    > own closet cases? (Just look at some of these guys'
                    > wardrobs?)
                    >
                    > Just pondering,
                    >
                    > Norm! (nojam75@...)
                    >
                    >


                    __________________________________________________
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                  • Joiner Rex
                    ... Steve, I don t know whether Paul and Jan are sincere or not (I think only God know that). But flamboyance does not automatically equal lack of sincerity
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 4, 2002
                      SEE REPLY BELOW:

                      --- Steve Boese <steve@...> wrote:
                      > calldon2k said:
                      > << After planning to move and after publicizing the
                      > move so they could raise
                      > money, they had a few shows from Calvary Temple. I
                      > was playing piano there
                      > at the time and did some of the pre-show music,
                      > praise and worship stuff to
                      > pump-up the crowd before the REAL "Paul and Jan
                      > Show" started. >>

                      Steve, I don't know whether Paul and Jan are sincere
                      or not (I think only God know that). But flamboyance
                      does not automatically equal lack of sincerity and we
                      all feel good in any legitimate venue when we are
                      "pumped up" as you put it. I'm sorry if you witnessed
                      some lack of sincerity perhaps, but a great many
                      "evangelical" Christians and many who have the
                      "fundamental" label as well are wonderful, sincere
                      Christians. I find that the ex-ex-gay movement is
                      becoming far too critical of their brothers and
                      sisters in Christ who happened to disagree with them
                      on this issue. In that sense, they are exactly the
                      same way as the very radical, pro-gay agenda who is
                      trying to get homosexuality taught in kindergarten.
                      Even if God accepts us just the way we are, I don't
                      think he wants to see us encourage homosexual activity
                      by those who may not have a pre-dispostion to
                      homosexuality. Well, that's my thought for now.

                      God bless,
                      >
                      > I was curious about the history of TBN's Texas
                      > facility -- was it originally
                      > touted as a the new headquarters or a partial
                      > replacement for the palaces in
                      > Santa Ana?
                      >
                      > --Steve
                      >
                      >


                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
                      http://health.yahoo.com
                    • Michael Airhart
                      I agree with Jerry that there s some knee-jerk hostility in the ex-ex-gay movement. Some of it is understandable -- many people have been injured by various
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 4, 2002
                        I agree with Jerry that there's some knee-jerk hostility in the
                        ex-ex-gay movement.

                        Some of it is understandable -- many people have been injured by various
                        ex-gay ministries' unprofessional or irrational tactics.

                        But some of it is simply a denial of personal responsibility. Some
                        ex-ex-gays won't admit that they joined ex-gay ministries of their own
                        free will, and whatever happened there was partly a matter of personal
                        choice. In most cases, no one made them spend years in poorly designed
                        ministries. It was their choice.

                        As far as I'm concerned, sincerity is a non-issue. Whatever their faith
                        perspective, most people are sincere. But they still hurt people. The
                        road to hell is paved with good intentions.

                        For example, Paul and Jan are sincere, and they have done good works.
                        They have also wasted literally tens of millions of dollars on luxuries
                        for themselves. Most Christians agree that is a sin, and all Christians
                        must repent of their sins. Correct?

                        Likewise, the progressive National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and GLAAD
                        claim to uphold freedom and human rights. In some respects, they
                        accomplish that. But they frequently seek to thwart the right of
                        moderates and conservatives (both straight and gay) to speak freely.

                        Jerry, I don't know of anyone seeking to get homosexuality taught in
                        kindergarten. I do know that most Christians -- indeed, most Americans
                        -- want kids to stop bullying and bashing each other, lest tragedies
                        like Columbine keep happening.

                        Regarding James Kennedy: A Christian acquaintance of mine has stood in
                        prayerful witness outside James Kennedy's operation, Coral Ridge
                        Ministries, bringing attention to Kennedy's promotion of discrimination
                        and imprisonment of homosexuals. James Kennedy has made promises to meet
                        with this acquaintance, then broken his promises. Kennedy is not
                        motivated by money, but rather by sincere belief in a brand of
                        Christianity that believes it must take political control of the United
                        States and selectively enforce Old Testament law against a nation of
                        infidels.

                        That is not true of all fundamentalists or evangelicals, by any means.
                        But it is true of certain segments. Likewise, there are leftist and
                        Marxist Christians around the world (especially in Latin America) who
                        view selective discrimination and political action against Americans
                        (especially evangelicals) as a viable means of living out the Gospels
                        and achieving Jesus' vision of a just world.

                        It would be nice if these factions of Christianity would spend less time
                        stereotyping one another, and more time communicating.

                        Sincerely,
                        Mike Airhart
                      • calldon2k
                        ... No one here has made that generalization. The criticism was because of the way they use pet issues (abortion, homosexuality, communism, liberalism,
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 7, 2002
                          --- In exexgayministry@y..., Joiner Rex <rexjoiner@y...> wrote:
                          > REPLY: While you may not agree with James Kennedy,
                          > TBN and others on the subject of being ex-gay, it is
                          > incorrect to think they are all believe what they
                          > believe for the money.

                          No one here has made that generalization. The criticism was because
                          of the way they use "pet issues" (abortion, homosexuality, communism,
                          liberalism, etc.) when they need to raise funds for something.

                          > REPLY: The fact that you put "Christian" in quotes
                          > indicates that you may feel these people are not true
                          > Christians.

                          You should do some reading-up on Ole Anthony and the Trinity
                          Foundation in Dallas. They provide housing and services for homeless
                          people. Awhile back, they were having people come to them who had
                          given all of their money to these ministries, then, when they were in
                          need, the ministries turned them away!!!

                          Brother, where there is money, there is power. James Kennedy, James
                          Dobson and others know that and work the religious system to get it.
                          Many who post on this group have come out of those ministries. Many
                          here have seen what happens after the crowd is gone, after the TV
                          cameras are turned off. Many here have been with those ministers
                          away from the pulpit...and observed them in real life, driving in
                          the car, ordering in a restaurant, dealing with people one on one.

                          The issue is NOT the "gay thing." The issue is that the bigger
                          ministries, as a rule, operate by one set of standards while the
                          local church and the people in the pew operate by another set of
                          standards. The issue is hypocracy!

                          > If you really believe God is ok with your gayness,
                          > then how does it please God for you to criticize other
                          > sincere Christians, just because they don't believe
                          > God wants them to act out homosexual desires?

                          You are missing the whole point. The issue is NOT homosexuality.
                          The issue is practicing in real life what you preach in public!!! My
                          friend, THAT is where "the big ones" are revealed for what they
                          really are...and to those of us who have been there with them, it is
                          NOT a pretty sight.

                          A close friend want's me to write a book entitled WHEN CHRISTIANS
                          ATTACK! I think it would be easy to get personal stories from those
                          wounded by the big Christian ministries...not just the disgruntled
                          employees...but those who have really been deceived, hurt by them.

                          The issue is not homosexuality...the issue is hypocracy!
                        • calldon2k
                          ... Here is some info for ya about flamboyance. QUOTE:===The Crouches — who declined to be interviewed — are hands-on executives, occupying two of three
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 7, 2002
                            --- In exexgayministry@y..., Joiner Rex <rexjoiner@y...> wrote:

                            > Steve, I don't know whether Paul and Jan are sincere
                            > or not (I think only God know that). But flamboyance
                            > does not automatically equal lack of sincerity and we
                            > all feel good in any legitimate venue when we are
                            > "pumped up" as you put it.

                            Here is some info for ya about "flamboyance."

                            QUOTE:===The Crouches — who declined to be interviewed — are
                            hands-on executives, occupying two of three seats on
                            the TBN board of directors and earning six-figure
                            incomes. He is paid $159,500 a year as president, while
                            she gets $165,100 as vice president, IRS records show.

                            ===END QUOTE!

                            >I'm sorry if you witnessed
                            > some lack of sincerity perhaps, but a great many
                            > "evangelical" Christians and many who have the
                            > "fundamental" label as well are wonderful, sincere
                            > Christians.

                            Yes they are. But they do not get on TV and CRY AND BEG for all the
                            little "Grandmas" to send in their social-security checks, do they?

                            But here's another comment on the actions of a couple of "Christians"
                            who constantly beg for money from little "grandmas" and others.

                            BEGIN QUOTE:==="Paul and Jan Crouch recently purchased a $5 million
                            estate in Newport Beach, CA. The palatial home was described in an
                            Orange County newspaper as "a palatial estate with ocean and city
                            views." The Crouches, founders of the Trinity Broadcasting Network,
                            have lived in a smaller home in Newport Beach for many years.

                            Sources say Jan Crouch wanted a bigger yard for her dogs. The new
                            9,500 square-foot home is situated on more than an acre.

                            The new Crouch home has six bedrooms, nine bathrooms, a billiards
                            room, a climate-controlled wine cellar, a sweeping staircase and a
                            crystal chandelier.

                            The three-story home also has an elevator, a six-car garage, a tennis
                            court, and a pool with a fountain.

                            It was not reported whether the Crouches personally paid for the
                            estate or whether the nonprofit ministry purchased the property. The
                            Crouches have used TBN money to purchase numerous properties across
                            the country to provide the couple with a luxurious tax-free
                            lifestyle.

                            One of the Crouch estates is TBN's ranch in Colleyville, TX, just
                            minutes away from the Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport. The 80-
                            plus acre ranch is located between the city limits of Colleyville and
                            Southlake – two of the wealthiest cities in Texas. The ranch, which
                            contains eight houses and horse stables, is estimated to be worth
                            about $10 million.

                            The ministry also provides luxury automobiles – both his and hers –
                            at each location. For example, the Colleyville ranch has two
                            Landrovers parked in the garage for Paul and Jan. The Crouches
                            usually visit the ranch about four times each year."

                            ===END QUOTE!

                            >I find that the ex-ex-gay movement is
                            > becoming far too critical of their brothers and
                            > sisters in Christ who happened to disagree with them
                            > on this issue.

                            So do you know how many homeless people Paul and Jan could have fed
                            with the money spent on that "six bedrooms, nine bathrooms, a
                            billiards room, a climate-controlled wine cellar" home? And realize
                            that THIS WAS THEIR VACATION HOME!!! This wasn't their real home.

                            >I don't
                            > think he wants to see us encourage homosexual activity
                            > by those who may not have a pre-dispostion to
                            > homosexuality. Well, that's my thought for now.

                            You are reading things into these posts that no one said. Please
                            have your vision checked. NO ONE ever tried to encourage any
                            activity, other than responsibile actions!
                          • calldon2k
                            ... own ... personal ... designed ... Mike, that simply is NOT true. First you need to consider WHY they went to an ex-gay ministry in the first place. It
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 8, 2002
                              --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Michael Airhart" <mairhart@i...> wrote:
                              > But some of it is simply a denial of personal responsibility. Some
                              > ex-ex-gays won't admit that they joined ex-gay ministries of their
                              own
                              > free will, and whatever happened there was partly a matter of
                              personal
                              > choice. In most cases, no one made them spend years in poorly
                              designed
                              > ministries. It was their choice.

                              Mike, that simply is NOT true. First you need to consider WHY they
                              went to an ex-gay ministry in the first place. It CERTAINLY was NOT
                              because they were emotionally well adjusted and content with their
                              life and their walk with Christ.

                              In general, people who enter an ex-gay ministry think they might be
                              gay (or they know), they have been taught that "gay folks" are
                              an "abomination to God," homosexuality is an abomination to God,
                              reprobate, etc., etc., etc. Many of them were told for years that
                              they would not inherit the kingdom of God, that they were going to
                              hell because of what they are, not because of what they have done.

                              THAT is STRONG motivation!

                              Now, consider yourself. Suppose your loved ones, your spiritual
                              leaders had been drumming this into your head for many years.
                              Consider that every time you walk into church, you hear the words
                              from the pulpit about the sins of the ambiguous "gay lifestyle."
                              Consider that your pastor said to your face, YOU ARE GOING TO HELL
                              because you are gay!

                              The message is...either become heterosexual or GO TO HELL!!!

                              Brother, THAT would be strong motivation for you to "seek help" from
                              an ex-gay ministry, from a witch doctor, from Benny Hinn, from the
                              fortune teller, from ANYBODY...just so you won't go to hell. Sorry,
                              but people are pushed into those ministries by fear, brought on by
                              the words and actions of others. It is NOT as simple as you are
                              trying to claim, it is far more involved than "personal choice."

                              (We haven't even discussed those gay guys who get married, thinking
                              marriage will "cure" them.)

                              > As far as I'm concerned, sincerity is a non-issue. Whatever their
                              faith
                              > perspective, most people are sincere. But they still hurt people.
                              The
                              > road to hell is paved with good intentions.

                              You might consider studying a book such as "The Subtle Power of
                              Spiritual Abuse" by David Johnson and Jeff Vanvonderen. The issue is
                              control. People who enter "ex-gay ministries" have to surrender even
                              more control than they have already surrendered to God. If
                              they "slip-up" in any way, even if they dare question the leadership,
                              they are rebuked strongly and often banished from the ministry. I
                              know several who have been that route.

                              ONE PERSONAL EXAMPLE: I knew a kid in another state where I used to
                              live. (I was not much older at the time) Nice guy who didn't fit in
                              the "norm" of society. His parents were Bob and Betty Baptist, very
                              traditional yet somewhat cold towards their two kids. After living
                              away for a few years, I received a phone call from this kid (now a
                              young adult) who had been sent to town by his parents. As it turned
                              out, he was GAY and his parents sent him to a clinic to be cured!!!
                              To make a long story shorter, he was not cured at that famous
                              Christian counceling center. But his parents refused to allow him
                              back home. So, he stayed in town and eventually entered one of
                              the "Exodus" related ministries. Within a few months, he had been
                              seduced by one of the leaders in the group. After a few more months,
                              they moved away, eventually settled in Florida as a couple. AFAIK,
                              they are still living there...the Exodus leader and the kid whose
                              good, Baptist parents would not allow to come home...because he was
                              gay! (I have more examples if you need them.)

                              So you are saying that people enter these ministries "of their own
                              free will?" Not hardly!

                              > It would be nice if these factions of Christianity would spend less
                              time
                              > stereotyping one another, and more time communicating.

                              Amen!
                            • nojam75
                              ... To clarify, I specifically stated Christian organizations . My point was that I question whether the practices of these organizations necessarily fall
                              Message 14 of 28 , May 8, 2002
                                --- In exexgayministry@y..., Joiner Rex <rexjoiner@y...> wrote:
                                > REPLY: The fact that you put "Christian" in quotes
                                > indicates that you may feel these people are not true
                                > Christians. You may be guilty of exactly the same
                                > thing you accuse them of - that is, not accepting them
                                > as brothers and sisters just because they don't see
                                > eye to eye with you. Jesus said, "He that is not
                                > against us is for us."

                                To clarify, I specifically stated "'Christian' organizations". My
                                point was that I question whether the practices of these
                                organizations necessarily fall within the teaching's of Jesus. I
                                have a hard time believing that Jesus would advocate the building of
                                these huge media & political empires. I could be wrong, but it
                                seems to me that televangalism and parts of fundamentalism are based
                                more on consumerism than love of one another.

                                I did not intend to imply that the leaders of these organizations
                                are not Christians, but I understand how my statements could be
                                interpreted in that manner. Again to clarify, I would never attempt
                                to determine who is or is not Christian. However, I do think it
                                legitimate to discuss whether a person's or organization's actions
                                coincide with Jesus' message. All people and organizations fall
                                short simply because our own humanity may undermine our intentions.

                                > If you really believe God is ok with your gayness,
                                > then how does it please God for you to criticize other
                                > sincere Christians, just because they don't believe
                                > God wants them to act out homosexual desires?

                                How does it please God to be silent? Did not Jesus loudly speakout
                                against the temple money changers and the religious establishment?
                                Although I do question the intent and effectiveness of many
                                Christians' actions, I do recognize that many ex-gay promoters
                                sincerely believe they are doing God's will and are helping gays.
                                But sincerity does place a person or organization above criticism --
                                whether they be ex-gay, ex-ex-gay, etc.

                                Again, we all fall short and I didn't mean to be so one-sided.
                                More "liberal" and "progressive" Christian organizations are just as
                                suspectible to criticism. In fact, I often ask myself what it means
                                to be a "Christian" or a "gay Christian". Self-examination is often
                                more beneficial than criticing others.

                                -- Norm! (nojam75@...)
                              • nojam75
                                ... Some ... their ... I have to agree with Michael. In my case, I fully admit that I willingly chose to participate in ex-gay programs. The Christian
                                Message 15 of 28 , May 9, 2002
                                  --- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                  > --- In exexgayministry@y..., "Michael Airhart" <mairhart@i...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > But some of it is simply a denial of personal responsibility.
                                  Some
                                  > > ex-ex-gays won't admit that they joined ex-gay ministries of
                                  their
                                  > own
                                  > > free will, and whatever happened there was partly a matter of
                                  > personal
                                  > > choice. In most cases, no one made them spend years in poorly
                                  > designed
                                  > > ministries. It was their choice.

                                  I have to agree with Michael. In my case, I fully admit that I
                                  willingly chose to participate in ex-gay programs. The Christian
                                  community I was involved with did encourage me to deal with my same-
                                  sex desires, but they were not familiar with ex-gay programs.
                                  Certainly, my Christian friends pressured me to uphold my
                                  fundamentalist Christian values and abstain from sex outside of a
                                  heterosexual marriage. But I can't say they pressured me to convert
                                  to heterosexuality. In fact, they fully acknowledged the notion
                                  that I may be homosexual for the rest of my life. So I really
                                  pressured myself to seek ex-gay treatment and I take responsibility
                                  for that.

                                  CallDon has a valid point that Christian culture can exert powerful
                                  pressure on gays to seek ex-gay treatment. But in my experience, I
                                  can't say Christian culture necessarily force gays into ex-gay
                                  programs. There are extreme examples of families forcing their kids
                                  into ex-gay programs. However, the ex-gay programs I dealt with are
                                  aware such extremes and are careful to emphasize that ex-gay
                                  participants must be self-motivated. Christian culture and
                                  Christian families can knowingly and unknowningly force gays into ex-
                                  gay programs, but only when a gay Christian *allows* Christian
                                  culture/family to exert such pressure. The gay Christian who
                                  passively allows such pressures is choosing to accept such pressure
                                  as valid. The alternative for the adult, homosexual Christian is to
                                  reject such pressures and deal with the consequences (minors are in
                                  a much more difficult situation and may not have such freedom).
                                  Also, gay Christian fundamentalists are in a more challengingly
                                  situation because fundamentalism tends to discourage alternative
                                  thinking and questioning.

                                  So, I don't consider myself and most other ex-ex-gays as innocent
                                  victims of ex-gay programs. I think most of us, for a variety of
                                  reasons, chose to pursue ex-gay treatment. But this acknowledgement
                                  does not mean ex-gay programs are off-the-hook when it comes to the
                                  effects of their programs. In the same way they publicize their
                                  handful of success stories, they need to acknowledge the devastating
                                  effects of their programs.

                                  - Norm! (nojam75@...)
                                • calldon2k
                                  ... Correct me if I am wrong, but you did this as a relatively mature adult who was secure in your walk with Christ. ... convert ... I would say that your
                                  Message 16 of 28 , May 9, 2002
                                    --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                                    > I have to agree with Michael. In my case, I fully admit that I
                                    > willingly chose to participate in ex-gay programs.

                                    Correct me if I am wrong, but you did this as a relatively mature
                                    adult who was secure in your walk with Christ.

                                    >The Christian
                                    > community I was involved with did encourage me to deal with my same-
                                    > sex desires, but they were not familiar with ex-gay programs.
                                    > Certainly, my Christian friends pressured me to uphold my
                                    > fundamentalist Christian values and abstain from sex outside of a
                                    > heterosexual marriage. But I can't say they pressured me to
                                    convert
                                    > to heterosexuality. In fact, they fully acknowledged the notion
                                    > that I may be homosexual for the rest of my life.

                                    I would say that your experience is different from many. Back in the
                                    1970s and even into today, there is much pressure among the followers
                                    of Dobson, James Kennedy, Falwell and most charasmatic groups to "be
                                    healed" or "be delivered" from your homosexuality with all that it
                                    implies. Consider that a new Christian, a "babe in Christ" does not
                                    have decades of spiritual growth to understand "whosoever will" and
                                    principles as that. Your group may have accepted your "celebate
                                    homosexuality" but most of the groups I have been associated with
                                    usually proclaim loudly 1Cor6:9-11 as PROOF that YOU CAN CHANGE, you
                                    CAN be delivered and BE NORMAL. Just look at Dennis Jernigan as
                                    PROOF that you CAN BE DELIVERED from homosexuality and pop-out eight
                                    or ten babies, securing your manhood.

                                    Yes, there is much pressure. Either be healed, be delivered or go to
                                    hell. Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I have obwerved it
                                    since the seventies. I have dealt with the "failures" who were
                                    never "delivered." As an entertainer/musician, I work with many gay
                                    people every day, most of whom came from solid, conservative
                                    Christian backgrounds. After years of spiritual, emotional and
                                    personal conflict, most of them finally said "SCREW YOU" to God, to
                                    the Church and many, to their unaccepting families. The stories are
                                    heartbreaking and so sad.

                                    You said your group "fully acknowledged the notion that [you] may be
                                    homosexual for the rest of my life." Where is your group now? What
                                    do they think about you now? How many have remained your friend?
                                    How many think that you have "gone off of the deep end?" How many
                                    think that you have given in to those abominal desires?

                                    > CallDon has a valid point that Christian culture can exert powerful
                                    > pressure on gays to seek ex-gay treatment. But in my experience, I
                                    > can't say Christian culture necessarily force gays into ex-gay
                                    > programs.

                                    Then I would say that you probably come from a very
                                    moderate "Christian culture." Few conservative churches would accept
                                    you for very long if you continued to entertain the idea that your
                                    homosexuality might be acceptable in any way. THAT has been my
                                    observation over the years.

                                    >Christian culture and Christian families can knowingly and
                                    >unknowningly force gays into ex-gay programs, but only when a gay
                                    >Christian *allows* Christian culture/family to exert such pressure.

                                    Consider the alcoholic who has been convicted of two or three DUIs,
                                    has lost his job three times, has spent several months in jail, his
                                    wife left him and took the kids to another state and he is now living
                                    in one room.

                                    Did he finally attend AA meetings on his own free will? Or was
                                    there "culture,family" pressure to attend AA?

                                    > The gay Christian who
                                    > passively allows such pressures is choosing to accept such pressure
                                    > as valid.

                                    "Gay Christian" is a broad term. A "newer" Christian does not have
                                    the years of spiritual growth to assure him of his relationship with
                                    Christ. The message he hears from the pulpit, from TV ministries,
                                    from his Christian family is always...KNOW YOU NOT that the
                                    unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom of God...HOMOSEXUALS will
                                    NOT inherit the kingdom of God!

                                    Valid or not, that is pretty strong pressure for a new Christian,
                                    especially for a younger Christian!!! I would not consider
                                    submitting to THAT kind of pressure to be considered "passive."

                                    >fundamentalism tends to discourage alternative
                                    > thinking and questioning.

                                    That's an understatement!

                                    >In the same way they publicize their
                                    > handful of success stories, they need to acknowledge the
                                    devastating
                                    > effects of their programs.

                                    Notice that they only publicize the "handfull of (pseudo)success
                                    stories." They NEVER discuss the devastating effects of their
                                    programs. Right now, I am dealing with several people who have "come
                                    out" to family, most of whom I have known for many years. It was a
                                    surprise to me when most told me they were gay. The parents of all
                                    of them are pushing the ex-gay ministries. In one case, it is a girl
                                    in her late 30s who came out to her parents around 4 years ago. I
                                    love her parents as dear friends for 30 years. But her Mom is broken-
                                    hearted and is really pushing for her to enter one of the live-in
                                    Exodus-related ministries. Her sweet Baptist mom refuses to accept
                                    the fact that no-one in that ministry actually changes. It is so sad
                                    to hear both sides of the conversation and hurt for daughter and
                                    Mother.


                                    ============================
                                  • nojam75
                                    ... I confessed my struggle with homosexuality and enrolled in an ex-gay program when I was 19. I was raised as a Christian, but was still trying to live up
                                    Message 17 of 28 , May 10, 2002
                                      --- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Correct me if I am wrong, but you did this as a relatively mature
                                      > adult who was secure in your walk with Christ.

                                      I confessed my struggle with homosexuality and enrolled in an ex-gay
                                      program when I was 19. I was raised as a Christian, but was still
                                      trying to live up to my faith. So, I wasn't a new Christian, but I
                                      wouldn't say I was mature in my faith either (whatever "mature"
                                      means).


                                      > I would say that your experience is different from many. Back in
                                      the
                                      > 1970s and even into today, there is much pressure among the
                                      followers
                                      > of Dobson, James Kennedy, Falwell and most charasmatic groups
                                      to "be
                                      > healed" or "be delivered" from your homosexuality with all that it
                                      > implies. Consider that a new Christian, a "babe in Christ" does
                                      not
                                      > have decades of spiritual growth to understand "whosoever will"
                                      and
                                      > principles as that.

                                      I think I understand your point that relatively new Christians who
                                      are gay may *feel* forced to seek gay conversion therapy. However,
                                      I would not say they were "forced" into ex-gay programs. I
                                      think "misled" or "pressured" are more appropriate descriptions.
                                      The distinction is that at some point one has to take responsibility
                                      for acting on their beliefs -- even when such beliefs are wrong or
                                      misleading. I agree that as a fundamentalist/conservative
                                      Christian, I had few alternatives to ex-gay therapy. However, that
                                      was because I chose to maintain a specific set of beliefs. I freely
                                      chose not to consider other options such as becoming a
                                      more "liberal" brand of Christian.


                                      > You said your group "fully acknowledged the notion that [you] may
                                      be
                                      > homosexual for the rest of my life." Where is your group now?
                                      What
                                      > do they think about you now? How many have remained your friend?
                                      > How many think that you have "gone off of the deep end?" How many
                                      > think that you have given in to those abominal desires?

                                      I have lost touch with most of my Christian friends I knew during
                                      the ex-gay time in my life. Although it hurts to lose such
                                      friendships, I feel that the basis of such friendships (Christian
                                      fundamentalism) is no longer a common bond. So, in some ways, the
                                      loss of these friendships is somewhat mutual -- although I had
                                      attempted to maintain some kind of communication.

                                      It also hurts to know that you are probably right in that my former
                                      Christians friends now think of me. From our last conversations, I
                                      think they probably consider me a "lost Christian".

                                      Having said that, I would not say they were responsible for my
                                      attempt at ex-gay therapy. Certainly, their attitudes influenced
                                      me, but I chose to consider their opinions.


                                      > Then I would say that you probably come from a very
                                      > moderate "Christian culture." Few conservative churches would
                                      accept
                                      > you for very long if you continued to entertain the idea that your
                                      > homosexuality might be acceptable in any way. THAT has been my
                                      > observation over the years.

                                      I don't know if my former Christian friends would view homosexuality
                                      as "acceptable", but they would recognize it as an unfortunate
                                      sinful temptation to be burdened with. They, and most other
                                      conservative Christians I'm aware of, distinguish between homosexual
                                      temptations and sinful homosexual behavior.


                                      > Did he finally attend AA meetings on his own free will? Or was
                                      > there "culture,family" pressure to attend AA?

                                      It depends on whether he chose to stop drinking and chose AA as a
                                      suitable method. Certainly his culture and family pressured him to
                                      stop drinking (and rightfully so), but ultimately he is responsible
                                      to decide why and how to stop drinking. One of the essential
                                      principles of AA is personal responsibility. So, I can't see how
                                      one could go into AA feeling "forced" into it. There is always an
                                      alternative which in the AA scenario is to continue drinking.


                                      Ultimately, my point about the importance of taking personal
                                      responsibility is to avoid a victim mentality. It is true that we
                                      all face seemingly overwhelming pressures. For instance, we all
                                      have to deal with they way we were raised (ex: religious beliefs,
                                      economic status, race, family, etc.). While we can acknowledge the
                                      challenge such difficulties can bring, it is childish to constantly
                                      say we are the victims of our childhood. At some point, each of us
                                      recognize that we must take personal responsibility for our lives.
                                      Similarly while we can acknowledge the damaging effects of ex-gay
                                      therapy, it is important for former ex-gays to acknowledge that each
                                      of us have the power to unlearn the ex-gay messages.

                                      - Norm! (nojam75@...)
                                    • calldon2k
                                      ... gay ... I understand, mature is a subjective term also. For many years, I was in youth work. Even now, I observe the mold into which we attempt to
                                      Message 18 of 28 , May 10, 2002
                                        --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                                        > I confessed my struggle with homosexuality and enrolled in an ex-
                                        gay
                                        > program when I was 19. I was raised as a Christian, but was still
                                        > trying to live up to my faith. So, I wasn't a new Christian, but I
                                        > wouldn't say I was mature in my faith either (whatever "mature"
                                        > means).

                                        I understand, "mature" is a subjective term also. For many years, I
                                        was in "youth work." Even now, I observe the mold into which we
                                        attempt to force others to conform. You are a good Christian if you
                                        fit this mold. You are not a good Christian if you don't. I am one
                                        of those former right-wingers who thought Southern Baptists were
                                        liberal. So...I was on the front row in the arena of trying
                                        to "encourage" others into certain behaviors...thinking that those
                                        behaviors were "Christian behaviors."

                                        Fortunately, I allowed grace a bigger hold on my life. For a control-
                                        freak like me, it is difficult to realize that God really does love
                                        all of those other people who do not look and act and dress exactly
                                        like I think they should!!! What a shock!

                                        It is difficult to sometimes admit that there are Methodist and
                                        Catholic and even Prestyterian folks who LOVE THE LORD just like I
                                        claim to...and they are not trying to get me to act like them.

                                        > I agree that as a fundamentalist/conservative
                                        > Christian, I had few alternatives to ex-gay therapy. However, that
                                        > was because I chose to maintain a specific set of beliefs. I
                                        freely
                                        > chose not to consider other options such as becoming a
                                        > more "liberal" brand of Christian.

                                        I understand. "Liberals" were all going to hell anyway. Why would
                                        you want to become one? Believe me when I say, I understand!

                                        > It also hurts to know that you are probably right in that my former
                                        > Christians friends now think of me. From our last conversations, I
                                        > think they probably consider me a "lost Christian".

                                        Too bad that they cannot understand that a person can be a believer
                                        even if they don't believe point-by-point as they do! It is a shame
                                        that they have lost a good friendship and a good friend.

                                        > Ultimately, my point about the importance of taking personal
                                        > responsibility is to avoid a victim mentality. It is true that we
                                        > all face seemingly overwhelming pressures.

                                        Unfortunately, many who come from the ultra-fundie-type backgrounds
                                        see no middle ground spiritually. They have been taught "if you are
                                        not FOR God (in our image of Him) then you are AGAINST God...and
                                        us...and all things good and holy. I have seen so many of them just
                                        discard all spiritual things and ideas completely. Too bad for that.

                                        >At some point, each of us
                                        > recognize that we must take personal responsibility for our lives.

                                        Amen!
                                      • nojam75
                                        ... believer ... shame ... One of the best benefits of coming out of fundamentalism was realizing that I no longer had to classify everyone in Saved ( One of
                                        Message 19 of 28 , May 11, 2002
                                          --- In exexgayministry@y..., calldon2k <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                          > Too bad that they cannot understand that a person can be a
                                          believer
                                          > even if they don't believe point-by-point as they do! It is a
                                          shame
                                          > that they have lost a good friendship and a good friend.

                                          One of the best benefits of coming out of fundamentalism was
                                          realizing that I no longer had to classify everyone in Saved ("One
                                          of Us") and Unsaved ("Them") categories. It's liberating to know
                                          that I don't have to automatically stigmatize someone who may not
                                          hold the same faith as my own.

                                          > Unfortunately, many who come from the ultra-fundie-type
                                          backgrounds
                                          > see no middle ground spiritually. They have been taught "if you
                                          are
                                          > not FOR God (in our image of Him) then you are AGAINST God...and
                                          > us...and all things good and holy. I have seen so many of them
                                          just
                                          > discard all spiritual things and ideas completely. Too bad for
                                          that.

                                          More importantly fundamentalism tends to discard non-fundamentalist
                                          people. Other than viewing them as potential new recruits,
                                          fundamentalism does not value non-believers.

                                          Hope is probably the most liberating aspects of leaving
                                          fundamentalism. Hope in finding value in other people and hope in
                                          the here & now. The message of Jesus was the hope of experiencing
                                          the kingdom of God in this life -- not in the afterlife or during
                                          the end of the world.

                                          - Norm!
                                        • calldon2k
                                          ... You got it right!!! Way back in the olden days...I participated in a concert sponsored by The Christian Church-Disciples of Christ. SHOCK...those
                                          Message 20 of 28 , May 11, 2002
                                            --- In exexgayministry@y..., "nojam75" <nojam75@y...> wrote:
                                            > One of the best benefits of coming out of fundamentalism was
                                            > realizing that I no longer had to classify everyone in Saved ("One
                                            > of Us") and Unsaved ("Them") categories.

                                            You got it right!!!

                                            Way back in the olden days...I participated in a concert sponsored
                                            by "The Christian Church-Disciples of Christ."

                                            SHOCK...those pseudo-Campbellites actually LOVE God like I claim to
                                            love God.!!! That was one of those "light-bulb" experiences, helping
                                            to "shake me" out of my little fundi mold!

                                            > More importantly fundamentalism tends to discard non-fundamentalist
                                            > people. Other than viewing them as potential new recruits,
                                            > fundamentalism does not value non-believers.

                                            Unfortunately, what you say is true. The world of true
                                            fundamentalists is a VERY small world.

                                            > Hope is probably the most liberating aspects of leaving
                                            > fundamentalism. Hope in finding value in other people and hope in
                                            > the here & now.

                                            True.

                                            >The message of Jesus was the hope of experiencing
                                            > the kingdom of God in this life -- not in the afterlife or during
                                            > the end of the world.

                                            I would say both...in this life AND in the afterlife, at the end of
                                            the world.
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