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2974Re: Ex-gay ministry exporting to Singapore

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  • alankhoo92002
    Dec 2, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi everyone,

      Thanks for your comments. Has there been any legal action taken
      against any ex-gay ministries for fraud or harm caused during therapy?

      Thanks.

      Best wishes,

      Alan

      --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225 <no_reply@y...>
      wrote:
      > Alan, you must bear in mind and accept that there are people out
      > there who simply are not open to truth, whatever that particular
      > truth may be. Some people are intent on reading certain passages
      of
      > Scripture in such a way as to only lend legitimacy to their own
      > doctrinal prejudices. They'd much rather hold to their own
      ideology
      > then concede to the possibility than the Bible and the God who
      > inspired it may be more gracious and inclusive than their doctrinal
      > prejudices will allow. For people like this, it really makes no
      > difference how much evidence you would present them with.
      >
      > There is certainly more than enough evidence and information
      > available in various forms these days to enable any objective,
      > reasoning and truth-seeking person to see that that there are
      > countless Christian people of deep and profound faith who live
      Godly
      > and upright lives, have a high view of Scripture, and who also just
      > happen to be gay. It doesn't take a scholar to see that Christian
      > hostility towards homosexuality and homosexual relationships rests
      > entirely on an interpretation of the Bible that in many respects is
      > open to question.
      >
      > Increasing numbers of respected Bible scholars and theologians have
      > come forward to say that a terrible injustice has been done by the
      > Church in their treatment of gay people and their (mis)
      understanding
      > of the few passages that continue to be used to support antigay
      > theology. Dr. Lewis B. Smedes, to cite only one of many, many
      > examples, who was former ethics professor at Fuller Theological
      > Seminary and author of over a dozen best-selling Christian books,
      > has written and spoken extensively on the subject. He has said in
      > part: "The Church's treatment of homosexuality has become the
      > greatest heresy in the history of the church." The list of
      > respected Bible scholars and theologians who have spoken and
      written
      > in the same vein goes on and on and on.
      >
      > The mere fact that despite all the evidence that's now come to the
      > fore to refute the claim that sexual orientation is changeable,
      > despite the dismal success rate of the "ex-gay" movement, despite
      > scores of testimonies from the many who have been involved with
      > these ministries and have come out on the other side to say they're
      > not effective, and despite the countless high profile and
      > embarrassing scandals the "ex-gay" movement has been enmeshed in,
      > these ministries and still continue to claim that homosexual people
      > become heterosexual people, stands as testimony to the fact that
      > some people are simply not open to truth. To these people I say
      > shake the dust off your feet and carry on. For those who are open
      > to coming to terms with the reality that not everything they were
      > taught may have actually been true, there's tons of good stuff out
      > there -- for him (or her) who has ears to hear.
      >
      > -Alex
      >
      >
      > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
      > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
      > > Hi Alex,
      > >
      > > While many people in the United States do know people like you
      > > exists, not everyone in the world does, especially people in
      > > developing countries where the ex-gay ministries are getting
      > active.
      > >
      > > In my opinion, it could be reasonable that the ex-gay ministries
      > > focus their attention in developing countries where homophobia is
      > the
      > > rule and where ethical reviews may be less stringent. Therefore
      > > they could be free to conduct as many studies as they want to
      > convert
      > > homosexuals, whom I guess some communities would happily send to
      > them
      > > before imprisoning and stoning them to death. I guess the
      > convertion
      > > therapists could be heros and millionaires there...
      > >
      > > The Spitzer study is being used as an important landmark study to
      > > propose their position that gays can change. While the Spitzer
      > study
      > > did not receive promimence in the press in the United States when
      > it
      > > was published recently, it did receive promimence in other
      > > countries. A cardiologist friend of mine from a another
      > developing
      > > country mentioned that the study appeared to be convincing based
      > on
      > > what appeared in the press (in that country) recently especially
      > > based on the "credibility" of Dr. Spitzer who "is probably
      > > unbiased". Your statement mentioning how he excluded you because
      > he
      > > was looking for people who supported conversion therapy is very
      > > important in this aspect as it could cast a definite doubt in the
      > > minds of the people if they hear of it.
      > >
      > > In Singapore, where gay identified groups were denied
      > registration,
      > > Focus on the Family has in fact used government money to organize
      > > seminars to prevent premarital sex. They have recently lauched
      > > their seminars on homosexuality. The Catholic Church have joined
      > > their efforts.
      > >
      > > From a newsgroup, I heard that one of the reasons why the medical
      > > profession in the country are silent about the homophobic views
      > (and
      > > in fact contribute, as professionals, to teach the public these
      > > homophobic views) is that many of them have been influenced by
      the
      > > right.
      > >
      > > Meanwhile, "liberal" people prefer to see both sides of the
      > picture -
      > > ie they also accept the "scientific facts" from extreme right as
      > > legitimate because they accept the claim that the right was
      > > victimized in the West because of gay politics.
      > >
      > > Best wishes,
      > >
      > > Alan
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
      <no_reply@y...>
      > > wrote:
      > > > Alan, there would be no need to conduct a study to prove that
      we
      > > > exist. The gay community is every bit as diverse as the
      > > > heterosexual community is and there are gay people everyone and
      > in
      > > > every walk of life. Some of us are Christian; some Jews; some
      > > > Muslim; some atheists; etc -- just like the heterosexual
      > > community.
      > > > Some of us are people of deep, profound and committed Christian
      > > > faith and in churches everywhere; some are just hanging out on
      > the
      > > > fringes of the faith community; some still trying to figure out
      > > what
      > > > to believe, etc. -- just like the heterosexual community. We
      > live
      > > > as many different kinds of lives and have as many different
      > kinds
      > > of
      > > > relationships, ranging from permanent, deeply-caring unions; to
      > > > short-term relationships; to one-night stands to rape -- just
      > like
      > > > the heterosexual community.
      > > >
      > > > Since there has never been any hard evidence -- biblical,
      > > scientific
      > > > or otherwise -- to prove that sexual orientation is really
      > > > changeable, it's only the so-called "ex-gays" that need to
      > > formulate
      > > > such a bogus and flawed study to try and prove that it is,
      > despite
      > > > all the evidence to the contrary. Nobody ever doubted that
      > we're
      > > > out there. On the other hand, there are tons of people,
      > steadily
      > > > increasing all the time, that doubt that they are.
      > > >
      > > > -Alex
      > > >
      > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "alankhoo92002"
      > > > <alankhoo92002@y...> wrote:
      > > > > Hi everyone,
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks for the postings, Steve and Alex.
      > > > >
      > > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
      > > > > "Needless to say, anyone could do a phone survey
      > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
      > > > directly
      > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!"
      > > > > My question is has anyone done so?
      > > > >
      > > > > Best wishes,
      > > > >
      > > > > Alan
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, nyguy_1225
      > > <no_reply@y...>
      > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > Nice post as usual, Steve. And while we're on the subject
      > of
      > > > the
      > > > > > Spitzer study, some here may be interested to know that I
      > > > > personally
      > > > > > responded to an ad Dr. Spitzer placed eliciting testimonies
      > > from
      > > > > > people who had been involved in "ex-gay" ministry when this
      > > > study
      > > > > > was conducted. I underwent a preliminary phone interview
      > with
      > > > one
      > > > > > of Dr. Spitzer's associates where it was determined my
      > > > background
      > > > > > was exactly what they were looking for re: participation in
      > the
      > > > > > study. Then during my telephone interview with Dr.
      > Spitzer,
      > > he
      > > > > > disqualified me from participating in his study after
      > learning
      > > > that
      > > > > > I did not believe reparative therapy worked. Dr. Spitzer
      > > > explained
      > > > > > he was "looking to speak with people who believe that gays
      > can
      > > > > > change." IF OTHERS WHO ANSWERED HIS AD WERE DISQUALIFIED
      > FROM
      > > > > > PARTICIPATING ON THE SAME GROUNDS, ONE NEED NOT BE A ROCKET
      > > > > > SCIENTIST TO FIGURE OUT HOW DR. SPITZER REACHED THE
      > CONCLUSION
      > > > HE
      > > > > > DID.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > As you may be aware, both the media and his peers blasted
      > this
      > > > > study
      > > > > > charging Dr. Spitzer misrepresented his research and
      > distorted
      > > > his
      > > > > > findings. The American Psychiatric Association denounced
      the
      > > > study
      > > > > > at their annual meeting and noted, among other things, the
      > > > research
      > > > > > was based on a scientifically insignificant sample of 200.
      > > Some
      > > > of
      > > > > > the other flaws they pointed out: The study was not
      > submitted
      > > > for
      > > > > > peer review, a fundamental prerequisite for the credibility
      > of
      > > > any
      > > > > > study; Spitzer interviewed his subjects by telephone for 45
      > > > > minutes,
      > > > > > hardly a basis for reliable data; and a convenient sample
      > and a
      > > > > > question of a 45-minute phone interview without other
      > > > verification
      > > > > > cannot determine that a person has changed orientation.
      > It's
      > > > clear
      > > > > > he had no proof whatsoever whether participants were
      > honest.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > This poorly designed study did not prove that anyone can
      > > > change.
      > > > > > The fact is there is not now, nor has there ever been, any
      > hard
      > > > > > scientific evidence that sexual orientation is mutable.
      And
      > > > > > contrary to the claims of some "ex-gays" there is no
      > biblical
      > > > > > evidence either. Needless to say, anyone could do a phone
      > > > survey
      > > > > > with 200 Christian ex-ex-gays and come up with results that
      > > > > directly
      > > > > > counter Dr. Spitzer's findings in a New York minute!
      > > > > >
      > > > > > -Alex
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Boese"
      > > > > <ophoguy@o...>
      > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > > > Hi Alan,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Ex-gay ministries and therapists have been active for
      > about
      > > 30
      > > > > > years and say
      > > > > > > that thousands of folks have changed because of them.
      > > > However,
      > > > > > when
      > > > > > > researcher Dr. Robert Spitzer went looking for well-
      > > > established
      > > > > ex-
      > > > > > gays to
      > > > > > > study in 2000-2001, recruiting them by publicizing his
      > study
      > > > > > through ex-gay
      > > > > > > ministries and therapists for 16 months, he only got 200
      > > > eligible
      > > > > > > participants for his study.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders say that it's possible to change from
      > gay
      > > > to
      > > > > > straight,
      > > > > > > but the vast majority of folks don't change their
      > > attractions,
      > > > > > they use peer
      > > > > > > support to change their behaviors. Drop-out rates are
      > high.
      > > > > Once
      > > > > > people
      > > > > > > figure out that their attractions aren't going to change,
      > a
      > > > lot
      > > > > of
      > > > > > them
      > > > > > > re-learn how to affirm themselves as gay or lesbian.
      > Quite a
      > > > few
      > > > > > local
      > > > > > > ministries have gone under, also, after their leaders
      > either
      > > > > > decided to go
      > > > > > > back to being gay or were found to be having same-sex
      > > > encounters
      > > > > > but hiding
      > > > > > > them.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Some ex-gay leaders cite the gay "lifestyle" (of course,
      > > there
      > > > is
      > > > > > no unitary
      > > > > > > lifestyle) as promiscuous, drug- and alcohol-ridden,
      > > unstable,
      > > > > and
      > > > > > that same
      > > > > > > sex relationships never last. Of course, those things
      are
      > > not
      > > > > > universally
      > > > > > > true by any means, either, but some ex-gay groups believe
      > > it's
      > > > > > true because
      > > > > > > they include disproportionate numbers of folks who have
      > had
      > > > drug,
      > > > > > alcohol,
      > > > > > > or sexual addictions.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Groups like NARTH (the National Association for Research
      > and
      > > > > > Therapy of
      > > > > > > Homosexuality) say they are putting science to work in
      > > studying
      > > > > > > homosexuality and evaluating "treatments" for it. In
      > fact,
      > > > NARTH
      > > > > > releases
      > > > > > > few detailed study results, none for peer review, and it
      > has
      > > > > > little or no
      > > > > > > credibility among other therapists. A lot of NARTH
      > > therapists
      > > > > > follow
      > > > > > > Freudian theories that adult characteristics are caused
      > > > directly
      > > > > by
      > > > > > > childhood experiences, and that homosexuality can result
      > from
      > > > any
      > > > > > > combination of gender deficits, an absent/distant same-
      sex
      > > > > parent,
      > > > > > a
      > > > > > > domineering opposite-sex parent, or childhood abuse.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Exodus International is a conservative Christian group
      > that
      > > > says
      > > > > > that faith
      > > > > > > is the problem and the answer -- homosexuality only
      > happens
      > > > when
      > > > > > people walk
      > > > > > > away from God and the solution is to adopt their faith
      and
      > be
      > > > > > either
      > > > > > > celibate or married. They're connected to 100+ local
      > > > ministries,
      > > > > > many of
      > > > > > > which are relatively informal, unfunded support groups, a
      > few
      > > > of
      > > > > > which have
      > > > > > > paid staffs. Exodus ministries are more often led by
      > > > laypeople
      > > > > > who are
      > > > > > > ex-gay themselves than by professional therapists; open
      > > > hostility
      > > > > > toward the
      > > > > > > professions of psychology, psychiatry, social work, as
      > well
      > > as
      > > > > > Christians
      > > > > > > who affirm gays, is not unusual.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > One of the more extreme forms of ex-gay ministry is
      > > > residential
      > > > > > centers.
      > > > > > > These are dormitory-like homes for groups of 8-20 people
      > who
      > > > work
      > > > > > during the
      > > > > > > day and do prayer and support groups during evenings and
      > > > > > weekends. Some of
      > > > > > > them do sports clinics for guys and make-up tips for
      > women.
      > > > It
      > > > > > seems to be
      > > > > > > pretty commonly accepted among ex-gay groups that God
      > wants
      > > > guys
      > > > > > to be more
      > > > > > > tough than sensitive, more sports- than fashion-obsessed,
      > and
      > > > > > cross their
      > > > > > > legs ankle-over-knee, not knee-over-knee, and the
      > residential
      > > > > > centers have
      > > > > > > plenty of time to train their clients in those areas.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Maybe you've already seen that groups like Focus on the
      > > Family
      > > > > > prefer
      > > > > > > distortion, exaggeration, and hysteria over being
      rational
      > > and
      > > > > > thoughtful.
      > > > > > > One of the techniques that isn't used as often here as in
      > the
      > > > > past
      > > > > > is to
      > > > > > > cite statistics from discredited researchers. Dr. Paul
      > > > Cameron
      > > > > > stands out
      > > > > > > in that genre. After tabulating statistics from
      > obituaries
      > > of
      > > > > > people with
      > > > > > > AIDS before effective drug therapies were available, he
      > > > concluded
      > > > > > that the
      > > > > > > average lifespan of gay men was 43. He's produced
      studies
      > > > which
      > > > > > were just
      > > > > > > amalgamations of other studies, misleading and distoring
      > all
      > > > the
      > > > > > way.
      > > > > > > Cameron has lost his professional standing among his
      peers
      > > and
      > > > > his
      > > > > > so-called
      > > > > > > research is not credible.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Other common distortions include that gays are more
      likely
      > to
      > > > be
      > > > > > pedophiles,
      > > > > > > that mainstream gay organizations promote sex for
      > children,
      > > > that
      > > > > > gay
      > > > > > > relationships never feel OK or last long, being gay is a
      > > > choice,
      > > > > > being gay
      > > > > > > is only about sex, gays are trying to recruit straight
      > people
      > > > to
      > > > > > become gay,
      > > > > > > that gays have an agenda for undermining civilization as
      > we
      > > > know
      > > > > > it, that
      > > > > > > gays have more money, that none of them are monogamous,
      > > middle-
      > > > > > aged and
      > > > > > > elderly gay men are washed up and discarded, gays hate
      > > > > Christians,
      > > > > > and that
      > > > > > > being gay is a narcissistic or addictive disorder. These
      > > > things
      > > > > > are simply
      > > > > > > not true.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I am co-editor of a blog: http://www.exgaywatch.com
      which
      > > > tracks
      > > > > > some of
      > > > > > > the politics of ex-gay organizations. You can find more
      > > > details
      > > > > > there, or
      > > > > > > feel free to contact me directly if you have any
      questions.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Best of luck, Alan...
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > --Steve
      > > > > > > --ophoguy@o...
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > > > From: alankhoo92002 [mailto:alankhoo92002@y...]
      > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 9:00 AM
      > > > > > > To: exexgayministry@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > > Subject: [ExExGayMinistry] Ex-gay ministry exporting to
      > > > Singapore
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Hi everyone,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > I have not gone through the ex-gay experience but am
      > > concerned
      > > > > > about
      > > > > > > its effects. They are now trying to exporting themselves
      > to
      > > > > > > Singapore to save the country from the homosexual
      menace.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > http://www.family.org.sg/events.html
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >
      http://www.familylife.org.sg/eve_upcoming/HOMOSEXUALITY.htm
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Just wondering if there is anybody who have gone through
      > the
      > > > ex-
      > > > > > gay
      > > > > > > ministry and could help to point out the limitations to
      > them
      > > > > based
      > > > > > > on personal experience.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Thanks.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Best wishes,
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > > Alan
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