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Re: New CALL site (feedback needed)

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  • Arlyn Freed
    Sus, You were directly on target with this, including bringing it to everyone s attention, because I reviewed the site and failed to catch the link, so I
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 7, 2004
      Sus,
      You were directly on target with this, including
      bringing it to everyone's attention, because I
      reviewed the site and failed to catch the link, so I
      didn't do a very good job. I'm frankly more than a
      little upset that Ismail hasn't removed the link and
      instead defends his right to retain it. The words
      printed on that page are more than a 'joke', and can
      be frightening foreplay to horrendous murderous acts
      -- definitely quite scary to read and not at all
      educatinal. I take full responsibility for the
      content of my website and believe that's part of the
      responsibility of having a site on the web and being
      part of the web community. I hope Ismail will come to
      see this responsibility and live up to our
      expectations.
      All the best,
      Arlyn

      Hello dear friends,

      le me go straight to the point:

      we do need to take a critical look at pages created by
      our community
      members; after all that was also what Ismael asked a
      few days ago.

      At a frist sight, I think the ESL page looks
      interesting and cull of
      good content, so I wanted to second the usual
      appraisals. But then
      I became aware of a very tasteless page linked from
      the Mecca
      pilgrimage page. Buth asked me to have a look.
      http://www.geocities.com/sara1000.geo/newindex.html

      "Most amazing Islamic facts", click on link 4: Are you
      related to a
      monkey? (still inside the same domain, sara.1000.geo)
      http://www.geocities.com/sara1000.geo/evolution.html


      =====
      http://www.eslhome.com

      "What's past is prologue."
      -- W. Shakespeare, The Tempest

      __________________________________
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    • susannenyrop
      To those who are concerned about this matter of responsible review of links, I an happy to tell you that Ismail has edited his links from his report from the
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 7, 2004
        To those who are concerned about this matter of responsible review
        of links, I an happy to tell you that Ismail has edited his links
        from his report from the Holy Land - so the one we disliked is no
        longer there to bother us. A good decision, Ismael, and thanks for
        the contribution of a burning topic for a relevant discussion.

        For me, as a totally irreligious, modern woman, brought up as an
        atheist and living in ignorance about many religious traditions
        around the world, it was an interesting page to read. I'll probably
        never get to Mecca myself, but I can hardly imagine how difficult it
        may be to make the seven rounds together with hundreds of thousands
        of like minded people from all over the world. Pretty suggestive, I
        would say.

        Sus
      • Ismail Fayed
        Susanne, In your message # 5483, you said
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 7, 2004
          Susanne,



          In your message # 5483, you said < To those who are concerned about this matter of responsible review of links, I an happy to tell you that Ismail has edited his links from his report from the Holy Land - so the one we disliked is no longer there to bother us. A good decision, Ismael, and thanks for the contribution of a burning topic for a relevant discussion.>



          My message# 5471 to the group was not a contribution to a topic; it was a clarification of some issue that you raised among the respected community members and asked for my quick response to it, and this is what I did. With the sensitivity and importance of the topic, I would say, and as most of you stated, I thought we all can benefit from such mental and educational dialogue.



          In another message # 5473, you said: <believe we're getting into a more general disuccsion about cultural awareness of homepage content, and that we do not necessarily need to protect our students, our families or ourselves against any offensive of controversial material, rather we should know how to view things with a critical inspection>



          Who said so, I did not refer to this meaning in any way in my message..



          You also said: <I do think that this is sometimes naive, because it takes quite a bit of linguistic as well as intellectual sophistication top reach that
          level of neutral evaluation.>



          I don�t think considering someone in the group as a na�ve because of his thinking or points of view a helpful feedback, as long as it is not against any of our values..



          I intended not to go deeper into the topic or to reply to personal responses on the same subject in order to avoid any misunderstanding, sensitivity, or misinterpretation of facts or opinions, with any respected member of the that group I like.



          But, in your same message # 5483 you said < For me, as a totally irreligious, modern woman, brought up as an atheist and living in ignorance about many religious traditions around the world, it was an interesting page to read.>



          Of course you are free in your religious or nonreligious belives and I never asked anyone anything regarding the subject.



          You added: < I'll probably never get to Mecca myself, but I can hardly imagine how difficult it may be to make the seven rounds together with hundreds of thousands of like minded people from all over the world. Pretty suggestive, I would say.>!!



          For me this totally irrelevant contribution from you and has nothing to do with this group. For me, personally speaking, I would say it is insulting to me and to other muslims in this group. It is simply because you are commenting not on a personal thought, rather on a religious aspect of my beloved religion (Islam). It is not even a regular aspect; no it is one of the five main pillars of being a Muslim who respects the religions of other as well as his/ her.



          Anyhow, it seems that some of you did not read my response #5471 clearly to see my feelings about this issue. If you feel it is a good opportunity to discuss an important cultural/ global issue, it should NOT be in relation to one community member or to one respected religion and this is what I tried to make clear in my first response. There are a lot of other religious forums where we can have religious debates or whatever kind of discussions away from this group.



          If some of you felt upset because s/he heard of a (sub-link in a list of referenced links in one of the links of my personal page), then you can imagine that I am really OFFENDED to have this response about one of the main aspects of my religion in an inappropriate forum for such topics�



          After all, I should have sent this message to mention how I really feel and to ask if you would consider it a category for discussion on this community, in this case, we can all contribute to the topic in this same forum with no sensitivity or misunderstanding from any part. We will also be able to decide if we should remain members of the same community or not, with these topics, or not.



          Ismail.



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • susannenyrop
          Dear Friends, Ismael and I wish to share with all of you how we managed to end up with a fruitful and understanding dialogue on the difficult exchange of words
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 8, 2004
            Dear Friends,

            Ismael and I wish to share with all of you how we managed to end up
            with a fruitful and understanding dialogue on the difficult exchange
            of words in the last few days.

            We have agreed to copy a private mail conversation to help this
            experience make sense for our future collaboration and friendship.
            Please read these messages with an open mind and help us by
            following an exemplary reconciliation process.


            Yours grateful Webhead,
            Sus
          • susannenyrop
            dated 1.5.03: Ismail, First, let me thank you for asking us to comment critically upon your excellent ESL page and your personal portfolio that I find
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 8, 2004
              dated 1.5.03:

              Ismail,

              First, let me thank you for asking us to comment critically upon
              your excellent ESL page and your personal portfolio that I find
              admirably stringent in terms of navigation structure. Yesterday
              night, I sent a message to our WIA mail list concerning a disturbing
              link from that page to a puzzling and narrow minded Moslem page
              with clear racist stupidity.

              I think I should have told you in a personal mail about my concern
              instead of projecting the question in the open forum, but I really
              hope you will understand this, not as a kind of attack on you in
              person, but more like a memo for controlling your links before they
              are exposed as part of your professional or personal credo.
              Please take a look on my WIA message and the reaction from Michael
              and Buth - and then tell us what you decide to do as for a removal
              or a critical warning before going to this page!

              I wish you and your family all the best in the new year, and
              hopefully also more interesting collaborative efforts

              yours online colleague and friend,

              Sus

              PS Did you have a special reason for contacting me in Yahoo earlier
              yesterday, that was before I had checked the links from your page to
              the next layer of pages, so my reason for showing you off was
              strictly personal - it was dinner time :-)
            • susannenyrop
              1.8.04 Ismael, please do not let this digression between you and me create gaps in our community. I agree with you in many of the points you mention about the
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 8, 2004
                1.8.04

                Ismael,

                please do not let this digression between you and me create gaps in
                our community. I agree with you in many of the points you mention
                about the inappropriateness of using WIA for this kind of
                discussion, but prefer to answer you with my own words instead of
                going back again and picking up details.

                Attached as a file is my heartfelt reply to your last offended
                posting, please take some time to read it and forgive my careless
                expressions, I would prefer to know what you think about my long and
                more carefully reflected answer, before I expose it in public on
                our mail list. If you can accept my apology, but still wish to let
                this attached message unpublished, then let me know, and we might
                just send a brief message to the list that the discussion is closed
                and that we have managed to settle our disagreement in private?

                Tell me what your thoughts are, and let us make peace, if you need
                more time for healing your wounded spirit, just let me know you have
                received the mail, because this unexpected digression is causing me
                a great deal of worry and grief. Do not let the sun go down on your
                anger! If those who already know each other from before, could not
                manage to build bridges between different life orientations, even
                though hard feelings have occured, how then would there be any hope
                for humanity?

                yours humble webhead,
                Sus

                Sus to Ismail (as an attachment to the above:)
                Ismail,

                First of all, I wish to say I'm sorry for having disturbed a good
                collegial connection with you, and that I hope this will be solved
                without a loss for our communit that has brought so many of us such
                interesting learning moments. Sometimes I think that there is a
                danger of misinterpretation of written texts that could have been
                less harmful in a face to face situation. An angry face expression,
                a surprised look, lifted eyebrows or a trembling voice can often
                make a person go deeper in an explanation, or just know where to be
                silent before a harmful situation occur, and avoid anger,
                bitterness or offense.

                Please try to be tolerant with me as an ignorant in your world and
                accept my heartfelt apologies and an explanation, and let us bury
                the axe of stride. Honestly, I did not mean to be harmful. I DO find
                your travel to the Holy Mecca very interesting as a first hand
                report from a life situation that is so meaningful and important for
                you and your people. Like you explainit making "7 rounds around the
                kabba. This is not an easy task, especially in Ramadan and in the
                situations where the place is full of hundreds or thousands of
                people. But, what is the morale behind crowdedness and why all
                people have to face it? It is in order to create tolerant Muslims.
                They should all accept each other, welcome each other, and respect
                each other." It is not unknown that accidents happen when people
                begin to fall from exhaustion and pressure in large crowds.

                When I read YOUR OWN description of difficulties moving around the
                monolith together with so many people, you simply trigger my
                imagined fear of the masses of moving people, not a disrespect for
                one of the world religions. When I travel, I try to see as much as
                possible, encouraged by a natural curiosity, but also sometimes
                limited by a feeling of risk, getting lost or run over in large
                crowds, which is the reason why I would not go there, not even under
                cover as a true Muslim lady from abroad. (perhaps wearing my good
                old invisibility cloak from the playful times of our TI MOO, well
                I'm just joking here, of course).

                I understand now how you feel upset with what I wrote about your
                tribute to Mecca, and that you would have preferred that I had not
                mentioned it at all. But from my side, it was meant as a tribute, to
                explain that I had read your page critically, which you encourage us
                to do when opening your portfolio - I hear sweet music that is
                unknown to me, and read this welcome message: I hope you enjoy being
                in my portfolio and looking forward to hearing your input about the
                content of this personal page..
                One thing that is at risk when you expose your personal portfolio
                online, is that someone is actually going to read it, and learn
                about your personal experiences and preferences in life. Also,
                we're in a habit of helping each other check and evaluate the online
                material we create. Otherwise, I would not have done such a detailed
                study of the page, or just have kept my wonderings about the content
                for myself, my first thought when I saw the Monkey story was that
                you might not have read the page, so I wanted you to have a look for
                yourself. This was MY input!
                When I try to rethink why I wrote like I did in my last message, it
                was not meant to be an insult, more an expression of my personal and
                paranoic fear of getting lost or hurt in a large crowd. I would
                never feel comfortable going to a football match because of the
                stressful presence of so many enthusiasts. I'm unsure whether this
                comparison is offensive; it is certainly not meant as such. I'm just
                trying to relate to something that I know about. And, my use of the
                term "pretty suggestive", was not a good choice. I can see that when
                I look it up in my English-Danish dictionary - "suggestive" can
                have more implications, some of them very negative. My meaning was
                synonym to "evocative" or maybe "significant". Others would say
                touching, or nothing at all. Feelings shouild not always bne
                transformed into words that can limit us.

                Do you remember an image of Vance diving with a shark, once sent to
                our mail list? When I saw that, my first reaction was: Oh no! I
                would never have dared to do so – and I may even write some lines
                about my personal fear of diving, and fear of supposed dangerous
                creatures like sharks, and I would expect the diver himself to drop
                a few lines telling us how this meeting with the shark was. I
                imagined this as an at risk situation, while the experienced marine
                zoologist was in his right element!

                Although I know by now that this was not your intention to encourage
                a deeper interest in your personal belief, as an anthropologist of
                education matters, I still find these cultural habits and
                controversies are important enough to pay attention from language
                teachers as well as learners. Encouraged by this discussion, I've
                tried to find information about Islam and found a study of the
                Qu'uran with both English and Arabic text; as a start you may read
                25 prayers http://www.islam101.com/quran/Duas25Quran.htm
                This might be a helpful link for foreigners to learn more, and maybe
                could be useful for your page? However, I know too little myself to
                evaluate the quality of this Islam study page to see if it is
                relevant and reliable. http://www.islam101.com/

                Peace,

                Sus
              • susannenyrop
                Ismail s answer to the first mail, 1.5.04 Dear Susanne, Thanks for your message and concerns. In fact, I have replied to the many questions I have received
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 8, 2004
                  Ismail's answer to the first mail, 1.5.04

                  Dear Susanne,

                  Thanks for your message and concerns. In fact, I have replied to the
                  many questions I have received today in an email to the group. I
                  have explained my point of view and gave my feedback as well.

                  Yesterday, it was the first day I try Yahoo Messenger after some
                  days of technical problems with the program. I found out that the
                  problem was with the Flash Player installed in my PC, so I have
                  removed it and it worked. I found both you and Buthaina online and I
                  wanted to send you both my greetings. In our chit chat, Buth.
                  refered to her feedbak and to the link issue, I did not hear or knew
                  anything about it and this is why I have sent another message to the
                  group and to her indicating that I will review the web links. What I
                  really don't understand is why did she refer you to it instead of
                  just telling me about it and waiting for my input?! Of course, it
                  would have been better and more relevant to our community in order
                  to avoid any misunderstanding or misinterpretations of our personal
                  believes or values..

                  Best regards,
                  Ismail.
                • susannenyrop
                  1.8.04 Dear Susanne, First of all, I am happy to receive your response and to know that it was all a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of context. This is
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 8, 2004
                    1.8.04

                    Dear Susanne,

                    First of all, I am happy to receive your response and to know that
                    it was all a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of context. This
                    is what I, too, feared from the very beginning. I can recall all the
                    many good occasions and wonderful moments among all our community
                    members, especially you and some of the other pioneers of this
                    group. This is why I too hope that we will be able to overcome this
                    situation and keep the very strong boundaries that make WIA a unique
                    community.

                    I have witnessed many other communities that can not keep this
                    virtual rapport and understanding we enjoy here. Most of these
                    communities can not guarantee a non-moderated environment for its
                    members and this is why you can not find a real mutual feelings and
                    respect, or even trust, among its members. Our community is
                    different, with this collaborative efforts and wonderful attitudes
                    towards each other. This is why I think this situation will help us
                    all build on that and learn from the past for a better future for
                    all of us and (for humanity) as you said.

                    For me, you can be sure that there are no hard feelings of any kind
                    towards you at all. I also hope that we will remain with the same
                    collegial relations or stronger, since we had a strong test of
                    relations and tolerance like that case :-)

                    I also agree with you that publishing personal information and
                    believe online is a risky matter, but I guess that it is helpful in
                    fostering the concepts of personal values and self-esteem as humans
                    and educators. It will affect those we teach or those who consider
                    us as models from our students.

                    For me, I don't mind sending any thoughts of opinions in public. If
                    you want, you may send both messages in one attachment or one
                    subject to ensure everyone that everything is OK and that we are all
                    still one team with no gaps of any kind.

                    I hope that Vance did not suffer any troubles from this situation,
                    as the owner and moderator of the group; it is a difficult
                    responsibility of course. I would also love to send him a joint
                    message of apology for any misunderstanding of any kind.

                    Finally, you are welcome to send me any comments of any type related
                    to my portal or to elaborate more in the discussion about my
                    cultural or religious traditions in my email or via YM.

                    Best wishes,

                    Ismail
                  • susannenyrop
                    Ismail, your honest and kind message is even more than I could have hoped for. I will see to create a combined message with this content later tonight, so that
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 8, 2004
                      Ismail,

                      your honest and kind message is even more than I could have hoped
                      for.

                      I will see to create a combined message with this content later
                      tonight, so that we can all breathe freely and continue our
                      invaluable voyage in a shared practice of global reach, with an even
                      stronger understanding of belonging to a tolerant and open minded
                      community ready to face even strong disgreements and brave enough to
                      clear things up before bad vibrations spoil such a good ald well
                      consolidated framework of multiple scaffolds

                      yours friend and online colleague,

                      Sus
                    • Sir Van
                      Dear Ismail and Sus-- If we were in a MOO I would react that way: Van applauds effusively Susanne and Ismail for their efforts towards mutual respect and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 8, 2004
                        Dear Ismail and Sus--

                        If we were in a MOO I would react that way:

                        Van applauds effusively Susanne and Ismail
                        for their efforts towards mutual respect and
                        examplary tolerance.

                        Van
                      • Michael Coghlan
                        ... Me too. Fantastic guys! And thank you for sharing your private communications with us. It is really instructive (and heartwarming) to see the process of
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 8, 2004
                          At 09:56 AM 1/9/2004, Van wrote:
                          >Dear Ismail and Sus--
                          >
                          >If we were in a MOO I would react that way:
                          >
                          >Van applauds effusively Susanne and Ismail
                          >for their efforts towards mutual respect and
                          >examplary tolerance.

                          Me too. Fantastic guys! And thank you for sharing your private
                          communications with us. It is really instructive (and heartwarming) to see
                          the process of resolution at play.

                          - Michael C.

                          (and I hope you don't mind being a 'guy' Sus. It's a generic term for
                          friends of both gender these days isn't it?)
                        • Ismail Fayed
                          Thanks Sussane for all your the time and efforts you spent in preparing these words of Peace, friendship and understanding. This is what will foster this
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 9, 2004
                            Thanks Sussane for all your the time and efforts you spent in
                            preparing these words of Peace, friendship and understanding. This
                            is what will foster this meaning in our community and strengthen our
                            relations as ONE group and one entity with many love, respect, and
                            understanding to one another.

                            Greetings and Love,
                            Ismail.




                            > Ismail,
                            >
                            > your honest and kind message is even more than I could have hoped
                            > for.
                            >
                            > I will see to create a combined message with this content later
                            > tonight, so that we can all breathe freely and continue our
                            > invaluable voyage in a shared practice of global reach, with an
                            even
                            > stronger understanding of belonging to a tolerant and open minded
                            > community ready to face even strong disgreements and brave enough
                            to
                            > clear things up before bad vibrations spoil such a good ald well
                            > consolidated framework of multiple scaffolds
                            >
                            > yours friend and online colleague,
                            >
                            > Sus
                          • Susanne Nyrop
                            Dear Van, ten minutes ago, upon your invitation, I tried to enter you MOO, and was accepted as a guest , I came into a nice forest highway image and saw you
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 1, 2004
                              Dear Van, ten minutes ago,

                              upon your invitation, I tried to enter you MOO, and was accepted as a guest
                              , I came into a nice forest highway image and saw you and others around in
                              the left side list of psrticipants but did not figure out how to type or
                              read any chat?

                              I'm too ignorant to read your Portuguese help text. But I've applied for a
                              membership - my call name would be SunRay I think
                              I'd better come back some other time as I'm having need for some fresh air
                              before sunset. let me know how I could help you with some Norwegian text?

                              yours, Sus
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