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Re: [evonline2002_webheads] Participation

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  • Maria Albers de Urriola
    Nigel, You ask for another reason for not contributing more to the group, and I think that probably it could be the fluency and/or knoledge of English. Any
    Message 1 of 11 , May 2, 2003
      Nigel,
      You ask for another reason for not contributing more to the group, and I
      think that probably it could be the fluency and/or knoledge of English. Any
      suggestions about this?
      Have a nice weekend,
      María Irene
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Nigel Caplan" <nigel@...>
      To: <evonline2002_webheads@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 7:57 AM
      Subject: [evonline2002_webheads] Participation


      Anne,

      Thanks for your comments. I would be the last to deny your right to
      silence, and in fact that is not my point. You have made a conscious
      decision not to contribute frequently to this list due to other
      priorities. You're right, this is not a class, and that's your
      perrogative. Were I back in the UK paying for internet access, I would
      probably do the same.

      I really wanted to discuss the largely unsubstantiated claim that using
      CMC *inherently* makes participation more equal. I would suggest that
      this online group is essentially very similar to a f2f group of
      teachers, where several voices (the enthusiasts) would be the "loudest".
      This is by no means to criticise those who write the most -- we all
      appreciate and learn from their contributions. However, as a small
      sub-group forms tight-knit personal connections, what happens to everone
      else? (Back to the question of boundary members in a CoP.)

      However -- Anne's situation aside -- what are the other reasons for
      non-participation? Does anyone feel they can't get a word in edge-ways
      (like in a real discussion)? Or do people (outside the Big Eight) feel
      that they have more opportunity to speak than in traditional groups?

      I am not trying to compare classes with groups like this (although we
      are a distance learning group to some extent). I believe that we need to
      know what the pragmatics of "normal" native-like CMC conversation are in
      order to know what we can expect from classroom-like CMC.

      And finally, the "silent period" is a very convenient get-out clause
      when talking about non participation. However, like much of Krashen's
      theory, it remains vague, unproven and superceded by interactionist
      theories.

      Nigel


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    • Nigel Caplan
      Hallo again, In answer to Maria, I don t think language ability is a major factor: after all this is a group for (primarily) ESL/EFL teachers, and I have
      Message 2 of 11 , May 3, 2003
        Hallo again,

        In answer to Maria, I don't think language ability is a major factor:
        after all this is a group for (primarily) ESL/EFL teachers, and I have
        generally found it virtually impossible to identify non-native speakers
        by the text of their postings.

        I understand everything that Elizabeth, Vance, Susanne and others have
        written to defend the type of participation in this list, but I still
        think that this is a valid question. Notwithstanding that this is a free
        listserv and not a class, and that people have real lives which preclude
        their active participation, I think this calls for a balanced discussion
        because:

        1. I still believe some (note *some* not all) people are likely to be
        discouraged from participating because of the nature of interactions in
        this group.

        2. If in a large group of English teachers, the discussion is dominated
        by a relatively small sub-group (we can play with statistics all we
        like, but reading the WIA messages certainly gives me that impression),
        what implications does this have for ESL/EFL students using asynchronous
        CMC (if participation is not forced by "requiring" one or two postings a
        week, say)?

        In answer to question 1, I would note the quantity of "me too" or "I
        can't read your page" (etc) messages which are tedious to all but the
        intended recipient; variable standards of 'netiquette' (deleting
        extraneous information, using clear subject lines, avoiding sending
        multiple messages where one would suffice, etc); and the number of
        personal messages, which although important for community building, can
        readily make anyone not in the "inner circle" feel excluded.

        Now before you all yell at me electronically, think back to the 8 week
        workshop, and work out how many people sent more than one message who
        were not amongst the myriad moderators of the workshop. And then ask
        why.

        Nigel <takes a deep breath>
      • Maria Jordano
        Hi all, I do agree with Maria. Sometimes, the L2 could be an obstacle for some people, even if they are teachers. But, apart from other people that simply do
        Message 3 of 11 , May 3, 2003
          Hi all, I do agree with Maria. Sometimes, the L2 could be an obstacle for some people, even if they are teachers. But, apart from other people that simply do not want to participate more actively, there are many other which do not have time enogh. I would have look at the kind of membership that people have. If they have only receive a digest or they do not receive emails, it could be because they are not very interested... They are there just for being. After doing that, there could be teachers that don't have time not only for replying, but even for reading. This is time consuming, and I can do this because I don't hae to look after little children and I have Internet at home 24 hour a day with a good connection, but what about the peaple who are not in the same situation? I know the situation from a "passive webhead" and, although she reads everything we say, it is impossible for her to participate more actively because of time... The same with other forums... Of course there there are people who may take all our contributions in a rather selfish way, "to much taking" and "no giving", but there are others who actually do not have time. Even sometimes I go throgh the posts very quickly because of time... Kind regards, Mar�a


          Mar�a Jordano de la Torre
          Avda. Men�ndez Pidal, s/n
          14071 C�rdoba, Spain/ Tfno. +34 957 212 130/ +34 607 510 651-

          TI Office 1915 TI2 Office MariaJ_Ofc - www.mariajordano.com


          ---------------------------------
          Do you Yahoo!?
          The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • altunar@ibu.edu.tr
          Well, I have no idea why participation came out to be a hot topic to elaborate but, I thought I need to respond after Nigel s provocative statements. Although
          Message 4 of 11 , May 3, 2003
            Well,
            I have no idea why participation came out to be a hot topic to elaborate
            but, I thought I need to respond after Nigel's provocative statements.

            Although I disgree with some of Nigel's statements, I find it valuable to
            discuss further on some points he raises. For example, when Nigel asserts
            that in a large group of English teachers, the discussion is dominated
            by a relatively small sub-group, we need to understand what implications
            this has for ESL/EFL students using asynchronous CMC. Nigel, that is one
            of the reasons we have Webheads. We are trying to understand. That s why
            there are people presenting at conferences and writing dissertations and
            masters thesis. we need data and sincere reflections to better understand
            the nature of CMC and online communities.

            > In answer to Maria, I don't think language ability is a major factor:
            > after all this is a group for (primarily) ESL/EFL teachers, and I have
            > generally found it virtually impossible to identify non-native speakers
            > by the text of their postings.

            I consider myself pretty comfortable with my English, however, discourse
            is something else. Sometimes, you really do not know how to enter the
            conversation or maintain the conversation. THis is something to do with
            living with the culture of language not the level of proficiency of
            language. I remember the times I occasionally misinterpret the
            conversations and refrained myself from participating (you know what I
            mean, Chris ?) So, the buttom line is practice and developng experience
            take time. Just bear with us!

            > Now before you all yell at me electronically, think back to the 8 week
            > workshop, and work out how many people sent more than one message who
            > were not amongst the myriad moderators of the workshop. And then ask
            > why.

            I do not think nobody yells at you electronically, at least I am not! When
            I turn back to the 8 week workshop, what I see is a new experience with a
            lot of experiences and successes. I remember you had sent another message
            asking why we need to count responses. I agree, numbers do not tell us the
            truth as Elizabeth also emphasized. This is a new experience with all err
            and benefits. If you really wonder the answer to the question "why", you
            need to do an in depth study with those who are involved with an
            appropriate research design. The results will come out eventually, i am
            sure.

            Peace,
            ArifA
          • sh3lby_b3ck
            Hello Webheads,I m new to this group and find it interesting that the topic of periferal participation has come up at this particular time. Since I know
            Message 5 of 11 , May 3, 2003
              Hello Webheads,

              I'm new to this group and find it interesting that the topic of periferal
              participation has come up at this particular time. Since I know virtually n=
              o one
              (no pun intended), I obviously can't speak for anyone except myself, but I =

              would like to share a couple of thoughts.

              Joining this group mid-stream is, I imagine, much like joining any
              other group, virtual or not, after the work and development of relationship=
              s
              has alreadly commenced. As an outsider—one of which I feel I am for many
              reasons—it's preferable (for me) to ease into things so that I don't commit=

              some sort of social faux pas and end up feeling/looking like a fool. For
              example, in searching for answers to a particular problem, a person (me)
              could start rattling off questions to the first person he or she encounters=

              (Teresa-sorry!) before he or she has thoroughly perused and read all of the=

              resources.

              Another issue is not knowing if this is the right place for me to be
              asking questions and inserting myself because it seems to be mostly
              dedicated to the instruction of English as a second language whereas my
              focus is Spanish. So, for the moment, I'm looking around, reading the mater=
              ial
              to find answers to my questions, and trying not to be a pest.

              Lastly, I'm in Alaska as I write this. I saw the map (and posted my
              place!) The majority of you folks are so far from me physically that I very=

              rarely seem to catch anyone on-line, which I need to establish that human
              connection. It's not that people haven't been welcoming; they have. It just=

              takes time.

              In short, I feel that as a new member, my responsibility is to become
              familiar resources that you have all developed before I allow the questions=
              to
              flow because it's likely that somewhere out there, you've already answered
              them. Better to find it and read it than to bore the group with a question
              that's already been asked and answered. At this point, it's only questions =
              I
              have.

              Shelby
            • sh3lby_b3ck
              I swear it looked better when I previewed it without the Wrap message text selected. Is leaving that box checked the key to keeping the text flowing properly
              Message 6 of 11 , May 3, 2003
                I swear it looked better when I previewed it without the "Wrap message text"
                selected. Is leaving that box checked the key to keeping the text flowing
                properly when it's actually posted?
              • dafne Chavez
                Hola Shelby, Bienvenida a Webheads! , and thanks for getting on the map. I was really thrilled when I saw your icon on it :-), as well as when I read in your
                Message 7 of 11 , May 4, 2003
                  Hola Shelby, Bienvenida a Webheads! , and thanks for getting on the map. I was really thrilled when I saw your icon on it :-), as well as when I read in your message to our TI2 WiA CoP. Regarding the "wrap text box", yes, it needs to be checked if you want your postings to look "normal" ;-) You can ask any question about teaching Spanish, I have taught Spanish as a FL in the past, and there are other Spanish speakers in WiA, too. :-) Your questions, comments, and experiences are always welcome and I am sure, having taught Spanish and English as a FL, that we can extrapolate what we know about one to the other. Espero seguir leyendo mensajes tuyos muy pronto. Cari�os, Daf
                  sh3lby_b3ck <marisol13@...> wrote:I swear it looked better when I previewed it without the "Wrap message text"
                  selected. Is leaving that box checked the key to keeping the text flowing
                  properly when it's actually posted?


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                • Dafne
                  Dear Shelby, In a book edited by Mark Warschauer (Network-Based Language Teaching: Concepts and Practice), there is chapter with a research with Spanish
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 4, 2003
                    Dear Shelby,

                    In a book edited by Mark Warschauer (Network-Based Language Teaching:
                    Concepts and Practice), there is chapter with a research with Spanish
                    learners which may be of interest to you, and other Webheads as well
                    (especially for those who still doubt there can be negotiation of
                    meaning through synchronous modes). I am copying a summary of the
                    chapter below, and the information about the book can be found at:
                    http://llt.msu.edu/vol7num2/review2/default.html


                    In the fourth chapter ("Negotiation in Cyberspace: The Role of
                    Chatting in the Development of Grammatical Competence"), Jill
                    Pellettieri reports on a study that investigated the potential of
                    network-based communication "to foster the negotiation of meaning and
                    form-focused interaction" (p. 64). Using Varonis and Gass' (1985)
                    model for nonnative-nonnative speaker negotiation, Pelletieri
                    presents a descriptive analysis of the discourse generated by second
                    language learners of Spanish while carrying tasks through network-
                    based synchronous written interaction. In line with studies that
                    examined oral interactions, Pelletieri found that lexical and content
                    negotiations predominated over morphosyntactic ones. Only those tasks
                    that included a more form-focused subcomponent (e.g., the composition
                    of an on-line note or narrative) tended to generate higher
                    percentages of morphosyntactic negotiations. Her study also indicated
                    that learners' output modifications in response to negotiations and
                    corrective feedback resulted in more target-like forms and in high
                    rates of incorporation of feedback into subsequent turns. The study
                    points to a number of interesting venues for future research relating
                    to how specific features of task design may have an impact on the
                    amount of negotiation or on learners' focus on grammatical form.

                    Saludos,

                    Daf

                    --- In evonline2002_webheads@yahoogroups.com, "sh3lby_b3ck"
                    <marisol13@h...> wrote:
                    > has alreadly commenced. As an outsider—one of which I feel I am for
                    many
                    > reasons—it's preferable (for me) to ease into things so that I
                    don't commit=
                    >
                    >> Another issue is not knowing if this is the right place for me to
                    be
                    > asking questions and inserting myself because it seems to be mostly
                    > dedicated to the instruction of English as a second language
                    whereas my
                    > focus is Spanish. So, for the moment, I'm looking around, reading
                    the mater=
                    > ial
                    > to find answers to my questions, and trying not to be a pest.
                    >
                    > Lastly, I'm in Alaska as I write this. I saw the map (and posted my
                    > place!) The majority of you folks are so far from me physically
                    that I very=
                    >
                    > rarely seem to catch anyone on-line, which I need to establish that
                    human
                    > connection. It's not that people haven't been welcoming; they have.
                    It just=
                    >
                    > takes time.
                    >
                    > In short, I feel that as a new member, my responsibility is to
                    become
                    > familiar resources that you have all developed before I allow the
                    questions=
                    > to
                    > flow because it's likely that somewhere out there, you've already
                    answered
                    > them. Better to find it and read it than to bore the group with a
                    question
                    > that's already been asked and answered. At this point, it's only
                    questions =
                    > I
                    > have.
                    >
                    > Shelby
                  • J. H. Steele
                    Shelby, Welcome to the group. I know that you will find a place here. As for being new,we have all gone through that, but then there are people like me, who
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 4, 2003
                      Shelby,

                      Welcome to the group. I know that you will find a place here. As for being
                      new,we have all gone through that, but then there are people like me, who
                      have been around for a while and still seldom post. The reasons can be many
                      (in my case, I have recently been overworked), but even when I wasn't so
                      overwhelmed at my job, I still have not been one to post very often.
                      Sometimes I just don't have anything to say. Other times I feel that what I
                      have to say is better left unsaid. And then, there are times I feel the
                      message should be sent privately to the original sender. (This is, in fact,
                      the majority of my participation).

                      So don't feel you have to answer everything that is said. We have Spanish
                      teachers, Art teachers, ESL teachers, English as a Native Language teachers,
                      and many others. Hope to read more postings from you eventually.

                      Now, as for participation. I would like to include here a paragraph from
                      page 73 of my dissertation. and ask how this relates to the group
                      participation. All we are looking at is public postings, however,
                      Paccagnella (1997) points out another problem with virtual studies. The
                      membership of any virtual community always consists of both people who
                      actively participate and those (often the great majority) who merely read
                      the messages without actively participating in most discussions. Further, as
                      B. Mason (1996, 1999) points out, much of the communication that takes place
                      in an online community actually occurs via private email. If a researcher
                      merely observes what takes place in the public portions of the community,
                      he/she will miss much of the give-and-take that occurs.

                      I hope to be less of a non-participant now that school is almost over
                      (although I am a candidate for an administrative position, so who know what
                      will happen.

                      John (Dr. Cat)

                      Prof. John H. Steele, Ph.D.
                      English Department
                      University of Puerto Rico at Aguadilla
                      jhsteele@... http://www.eslpalace.com


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "sh3lby_b3ck" <marisol13@...>
                      To: <evonline2002_webheads@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 9:23 PM
                      Subject: [evonline2002_webheads] Participation and finding one's place


                      Hello Webheads,

                      I'm new to this group and find it interesting that the topic of periferal
                      participation has come up at this particular time. Since I know virtually n=
                      o one
                      (no pun intended), I obviously can't speak for anyone except myself, but I =

                      would like to share a couple of thoughts.

                      Joining this group mid-stream is, I imagine, much like joining any
                      other group, virtual or not, after the work and development of relationship=
                      s
                      has alreadly commenced. As an outsider-one of which I feel I am for many
                      reasons-it's preferable (for me) to ease into things so that I don't commit=

                      some sort of social faux pas and end up feeling/looking like a fool. For
                      example, in searching for answers to a particular problem, a person (me)
                      could start rattling off questions to the first person he or she encounters=

                      (Teresa-sorry!) before he or she has thoroughly perused and read all of the=

                      resources.

                      Another issue is not knowing if this is the right place for me to be
                      asking questions and inserting myself because it seems to be mostly
                      dedicated to the instruction of English as a second language whereas my
                      focus is Spanish. So, for the moment, I'm looking around, reading the mater=
                      ial
                      to find answers to my questions, and trying not to be a pest.

                      Lastly, I'm in Alaska as I write this. I saw the map (and posted my
                      place!) The majority of you folks are so far from me physically that I very=

                      rarely seem to catch anyone on-line, which I need to establish that human
                      connection. It's not that people haven't been welcoming; they have. It just=

                      takes time.

                      In short, I feel that as a new member, my responsibility is to become
                      familiar resources that you have all developed before I allow the questions=
                      to
                      flow because it's likely that somewhere out there, you've already answered
                      them. Better to find it and read it than to bore the group with a question
                      that's already been asked and answered. At this point, it's only questions =
                      I
                      have.

                      Shelby




                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      evonline2002_webheads-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                      http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/evonline2002/webheads.htm

                      When replying to postings, please delete this footer and any other
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                    • J. H. Steele
                      Actually, I left out a paragraph break when I sent the following message. I have corrected the paragraph in question. John (Dr. Cat) Now, as for participation.
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 4, 2003
                        Actually, I left out a paragraph break when I sent the following message. I
                        have corrected the paragraph in question.

                        John (Dr. Cat)

                        Now, as for participation. I would like to include here a paragraph from
                        page 73 of my dissertation. and ask how this relates to the group
                        participation. All we are looking at is public postings, however,

                        Paccagnella (1997) points out another problem with virtual studies. The
                        membership of any virtual community always consists of both people who
                        actively participate and those (often the great majority) who merely read
                        the messages without actively participating in most discussions. Further, as
                        B. Mason (1996, 1999) points out, much of the communication that takes place
                        in an online community actually occurs via private email. If a researcher
                        merely observes what takes place in the public portions of the community,
                        he/she will miss much of the give-and-take that occurs.

                        jhs

                        Prof. John H. Steele, Ph.D.
                        English Department
                        University of Puerto Rico at Aguadilla
                        jhsteele@... http://www.eslpalace.com


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "J. H. Steele" <jhsteele@...>
                        To: <evonline2002_webheads@yahoogroups.com>
                        Cc: <marisol13@...>
                        Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 11:16 AM
                        Subject: Re: [evonline2002_webheads] Participation and finding one's place


                        > Shelby,
                        >
                        > Welcome to the group. I know that you will find a place here. As for being
                        > new,we have all gone through that, but then there are people like me, who
                        > have been around for a while and still seldom post. The reasons can be
                        many
                        > (in my case, I have recently been overworked), but even when I wasn't so
                        > overwhelmed at my job, I still have not been one to post very often.
                        > Sometimes I just don't have anything to say. Other times I feel that what
                        I
                        > have to say is better left unsaid. And then, there are times I feel the
                        > message should be sent privately to the original sender. (This is, in
                        fact,
                        > the majority of my participation).
                        >
                        > So don't feel you have to answer everything that is said. We have Spanish
                        > teachers, Art teachers, ESL teachers, English as a Native Language
                        teachers,
                        > and many others. Hope to read more postings from you eventually.
                        >
                        > Now, as for participation. I would like to include here a paragraph from
                        > page 73 of my dissertation. and ask how this relates to the group
                        > participation. All we are looking at is public postings, however,
                        > Paccagnella (1997) points out another problem with virtual studies. The
                        > membership of any virtual community always consists of both people who
                        > actively participate and those (often the great majority) who merely read
                        > the messages without actively participating in most discussions. Further,
                        as
                        > B. Mason (1996, 1999) points out, much of the communication that takes
                        place
                        > in an online community actually occurs via private email. If a researcher
                        > merely observes what takes place in the public portions of the community,
                        > he/she will miss much of the give-and-take that occurs.
                        >
                        > I hope to be less of a non-participant now that school is almost over
                        > (although I am a candidate for an administrative position, so who know
                        what
                        > will happen.
                        >
                        > John (Dr. Cat)
                        >
                        > Prof. John H. Steele, Ph.D.
                        > English Department
                        > University of Puerto Rico at Aguadilla
                        > jhsteele@... http://www.eslpalace.com
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "sh3lby_b3ck" <marisol13@...>
                        > To: <evonline2002_webheads@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 9:23 PM
                        > Subject: [evonline2002_webheads] Participation and finding one's place
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Webheads,
                        >
                        > I'm new to this group and find it interesting that the topic of periferal
                        > participation has come up at this particular time. Since I know virtually
                        n=
                        > o one
                        > (no pun intended), I obviously can't speak for anyone except myself, but I
                        =
                        >
                        > would like to share a couple of thoughts.
                        >
                        > Joining this group mid-stream is, I imagine, much like joining any
                        > other group, virtual or not, after the work and development of
                        relationship=
                        > s
                        > has alreadly commenced. As an outsider-one of which I feel I am for many
                        > reasons-it's preferable (for me) to ease into things so that I don't
                        commit=
                        >
                        > some sort of social faux pas and end up feeling/looking like a fool. For
                        > example, in searching for answers to a particular problem, a person (me)
                        > could start rattling off questions to the first person he or she
                        encounters=
                        >
                        > (Teresa-sorry!) before he or she has thoroughly perused and read all of
                        the=
                        >
                        > resources.
                        >
                        > Another issue is not knowing if this is the right place for me to be
                        > asking questions and inserting myself because it seems to be mostly
                        > dedicated to the instruction of English as a second language whereas my
                        > focus is Spanish. So, for the moment, I'm looking around, reading the
                        mater=
                        > ial
                        > to find answers to my questions, and trying not to be a pest.
                        >
                        > Lastly, I'm in Alaska as I write this. I saw the map (and posted my
                        > place!) The majority of you folks are so far from me physically that I
                        very=
                        >
                        > rarely seem to catch anyone on-line, which I need to establish that human
                        > connection. It's not that people haven't been welcoming; they have. It
                        just=
                        >
                        > takes time.
                        >
                        > In short, I feel that as a new member, my responsibility is to become
                        > familiar resources that you have all developed before I allow the
                        questions=
                        > to
                        > flow because it's likely that somewhere out there, you've already answered
                        > them. Better to find it and read it than to bore the group with a question
                        > that's already been asked and answered. At this point, it's only questions
                        =
                        > I
                        > have.
                        >
                        > Shelby
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > evonline2002_webheads-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > For more information:
                        > http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/evonline2002/webheads.htm
                        >
                        > When replying to postings, please delete this footer and any other
                        > extraneous text from the reply - Thanks!!
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > evonline2002_webheads-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > For more information:
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