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Re: [evonline2002_webheads] Webcams v Voice Technology

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  • Michael Coghlan
    ... Don - I think you have summed up the situation well. Voice technology has arrived . While the free low bandwith tools for video may be fun, I for one
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 3, 2003
      At 11:16 AM 3/02/2003 -0800, you wrote:
      >Dear all,
      >
      >I'm bummed out.
      >
      >Yesterday's webcam-session on Tapped In (actually in YM) was my first real
      >experience with this technology and to be completely honest I was entirely
      >underwelmed. Now I know this is a group dominated but cheerfully
      >undeterrable technophiles but...
      >
      >First of all, I was completely shocked to discover that webcaming (is this
      >a new term?) does not involve voice. I kept trying to figure out what I
      >was doing wrong because I wasn't getting any sound. I guess I have just
      >seen too many Hollywood movies where people are talking to each other
      >"face-to-face" via webcabs. What I saw last night was little more than
      >occasionally changing still-frames sans sound. Things got a little better
      >once we moved over to YM for a voice conference which had the effect of
      >adding an unsyncronized audio track to the visual element provided by the
      >webcam "moving stills." But this was a far (and unsatisfying) cry from
      >"video conferencing."
      >
      >Anyway, not to be completely negative, I'd been wondering what webcaming
      >brings to an online CoP like ours. As ScottLo said (via text I should
      >point out) out: "it's fun." Despite my disappointment, I agree. It WAS
      >fun to see faces "in motion" that I had only seen in stills on the
      >community page before. But I have to say it was infinitely better to hear
      >people's voice and (almost) have conversations. Voice chat seems to be a
      >technology that has "arrived" while webcaming, based on what I saw last
      >night, has not. Am I alone in this feeling? Was last night somehow NOT
      >representative of what is possible?
      >
      >--Don

      Don - I think you have summed up the situation well. Voice technology has
      'arrived'. While the free low bandwith tools for video may be fun, I for
      one would not include it in any serious class where people have paid good
      money. However, there are tools - very expensive tools - that are almost
      seamless in their delivery of voice and lip-synched video. And *one way*
      video/audio streaming via Real Player via a dial up modem is acceptable.

      And yes, we technophiles will keep trying. That is in part why Webheads
      exists. We keep trying these things and watch their progression. And we
      have seen voice technology progress from being a similarly frustrating
      not-worth-the-effort experience to something that is now acceptable. The
      same will happen with the use of video, and when it happens Webheads will
      be there!

      - Michael C.
    • dafne Chavez
      Dear Don and All, I am very sorry to hear that you are disappointed with your webcamming? experience. For me, using webcams has been a great experience. I have
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 3, 2003
        Dear Don and All,
        I am very sorry to hear that you are disappointed with your webcamming? experience. For me, using webcams has been a great experience. I have been able to know more about the people in this community, to develop tighter bonds. Being able to see the environment where my fellows work, how they dress and look on a Sunday morning or evening, their faces as they read and write messages to each other, etc., has made wonders for me. Now, when we are not using webcams I can imagine those people's expressions as I read their messages when we chat at TI, Yahoo Messenger, MSN or any other virtual environment. As for my students, being able to see each other has also been a fun and motivating factor that has shorten the physical distance.
        On the other hand, the web tools we mainly use are free, and we try to make the best use of them for our benefit and that of our students (Digital Divide in mind). Of course, paid services give more quality, and those who can afford them are blessed. In my personal case, learning the existance and use of the free tools we have explored, has given me the opportunity to offer my students a new way of learning, and for myself, a new world for teaching. All this experience with Webheads has indeed influenced my teaching and learning practice, but I will stop here since this is the topic of our week 5 session.
        I also believe that body language is important for communication, but that does not hinder the importance and effectiveness of written communication.
        I think each person needs be clear about his/her objectives, as well as the resources available, and try to use them in the best way possible to reach those objectives.
        When some of us met in Salt Lake City last year, it was, as I said in a previous message, like meeting old friends, and I think that it was due to the fact that we had not only seen our faces in pics, but we recognized our facial expressions as seen in our webcamming? sessions.
        I run to the computer store right after I saw Vance's face on my computer for the first time, and I am very happy to have it (they are very cheap and they even include some software for photo edition).
        Maybe I was a real newbie with no preconception of what everything was going to be like ;-)
        Cheers,
        Daf

        Don Carroll <dcarroll@...> wrote:Dear all,

        I'm bummed out.

        Yesterday's webcam-session on Tapped In (actually in YM) was my first real
        experience with this technology and to be completely honest I was entirely
        underwelmed. Now I know this is a group dominated but cheerfully
        undeterrable technophiles but...

        First of all, I was completely shocked to discover that webcaming (is this










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      • Don Carroll
        Dear all, I m bummed out. Yesterday s webcam-session on Tapped In (actually in YM) was my first real experience with this technology and to be completely
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 3, 2003
          Dear all,

          I'm bummed out.

          Yesterday's webcam-session on Tapped In (actually in YM) was my first real
          experience with this technology and to be completely honest I was entirely
          underwelmed. Now I know this is a group dominated but cheerfully
          undeterrable technophiles but...

          First of all, I was completely shocked to discover that webcaming (is this
          a new term?) does not involve voice. I kept trying to figure out what I
          was doing wrong because I wasn't getting any sound. I guess I have just
          seen too many Hollywood movies where people are talking to each other
          "face-to-face" via webcabs. What I saw last night was little more than
          occasionally changing still-frames sans sound. Things got a little better
          once we moved over to YM for a voice conference which had the effect of
          adding an unsyncronized audio track to the visual element provided by the
          webcam "moving stills." But this was a far (and unsatisfying) cry from
          "video conferencing."

          Anyway, not to be completely negative, I'd been wondering what webcaming
          brings to an online CoP like ours. As ScottLo said (via text I should
          point out) out: "it's fun." Despite my disappointment, I agree. It WAS
          fun to see faces "in motion" that I had only seen in stills on the
          community page before. But I have to say it was infinitely better to hear
          people's voice and (almost) have conversations. Voice chat seems to be a
          technology that has "arrived" while webcaming, based on what I saw last
          night, has not. Am I alone in this feeling? Was last night somehow NOT
          representative of what is possible?

          --Don







          Perhaps part of my dissatisfaction comes from the fact that much of my
          dissertation addresses the delicate ways that talk and body are mutually
          embedded. Unfortunately, the stuttering webcam images I saw last night
          were so rough (too few frames per second) that any ties between body and
          talk are lost. Only the crudest levels of action are visible, e.g. person
          stands up and leaves,






          While I had been considering buying a webcam but now I'm not so sure. It
          looks


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris Jones
          Hi, Don, and all, My first time for both voice chat and using a webcam happened one time last spring when I saw that Dafne was on YM. I was really surprised
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 3, 2003
            Hi, Don, and all,

            My first time for both voice chat and using a webcam
            happened one time last spring when I saw that Dafne
            was on YM. I was really surprised that I could see
            her on her webcam when I didn't have one. Even more
            than that we could have a conversation from opposite
            sides of the world, and it was FREE! Yes, a phone
            conversation is usually clearer, but how much do we
            pay per minute to call from the US to Spain? You also
            can't see the other person even in a rather jerky
            image.

            I guess it goes back to a similar adage to "Beauty is
            in the eye of the beholder." I was quite thrilled to
            be able to talk to someone so far away. After that, I
            was able to virtually visit one of Vance's sessions at
            TESOL last spring where he was broadcasting the voice
            and webcam of the person speaking. Meanwhile I was
            sitting in my office and getting ready to go to class.
            Since I was unable to attend TESOL last year, that
            was another thrill.

            Chris Jones

            --- Don Carroll <dcarroll@...> wrote:
            > I'm bummed out.
            >
            > Yesterday's webcam-session on Tapped In (actually in
            > YM) was my first real
            > experience with this technology and to be completely
            > honest I was entirely
            > underwelmed.

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          • dafne Chavez
            Hi Webheads, This is a surprise for a dear webhead! Check it out! http://www.geocities.com/dygonza/webheads/chrisonwebcam.html Cheers, Daf ... Do you Yahoo!?
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 3, 2003
              Hi Webheads,
              This is a surprise for a dear webhead! Check it out!
              http://www.geocities.com/dygonza/webheads/chrisonwebcam.html
              Cheers,
              Daf






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            • Vance Stevens
              This is the complete info on the article mentioned earlier http://iteslj.org/Techniques/Campbell-Weblogs.html Weblogs for Use with ESL Classes Aaron Patric
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 3, 2003
                This is the complete info on the article mentioned earlier

                http://iteslj.org/Techniques/Campbell-Weblogs.html

                Weblogs for Use with ESL Classes
                Aaron Patric Campbell Internet TESL Journal
                Vol. IX, No. 2, February 2003

                The purpose of this paper is to introduce three ways that weblogs can be used to support ESL classroom learning.
                After defining what a weblog is, I will proceed to show how weblogs can be put into immediate use in the ESL
                classroom by means of three distinct types: the tutor weblog, learner weblog, and class weblog. I will also
                mention the software available for creating and maintaining weblogs.

                In our last year's Webheads in Action sessions, WeBlogs were covered here:
                http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/evonline2002/week5.htm#blogs

                I see Susanne has uploaded files on this topic to our FILES area.

                Vance


                Don Carroll wrote:

                > Hi everyone,
                >
                > Can anyone point me to information about creating and using weblogs. I've
                > already found somethings on the webheads site and played around with
                > Blogger at bit. Can anyone offer any personal experience. I would like to
                > get students doing both an individual blog as well as contributing to a
                > "community blog."
                >
                > --Don
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                >
                > For more information:
                > http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/evonline2002/webheads.htm
                >
                > When replying to postings, please delete this footer and any other extraneous text from the reply - Thanks!!
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • CJones <edtec2002@yahoo.com>
                Thanks, Daf, You re right! I m surprised. Probably you told me at the time that you were capturing me on my webcam, but I had long since forgotten. Chris
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 3, 2003
                  Thanks, Daf,

                  You're right! I'm surprised. Probably you told me at the time that
                  you were capturing me on my webcam, but I had long since forgotten.

                  Chris

                  --- In evonline2002_webheads@yahoogroups.com, dafne Chavez
                  <dygonza@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Webheads,
                  > This is a surprise for a dear webhead! Check it out!
                  > http://www.geocities.com/dygonza/webheads/chrisonwebcam.html
                  > Cheers,
                  > Daf
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • dafne Chavez
                  Hello Don, Maria Irene, and All, This is the chat we had while exploring some blog sites yesterday. The url s to several weblogs are included there. This log
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 4, 2003
                    Hello Don, Maria Irene, and All,
                    This is the chat we had while exploring some blog sites yesterday. The url's to several weblogs are included there. This log can also be found in the Yahoo Group file, 2003 - week 3. It seems that our expert at weblogs are Sus and Arif. As you will find out through the chat, I am not a weblog fan (yet). I still prefer web pages, even though mine are not as savvy as Don would like our pages to be :-(
                    Hugs,
                    Daf
                    http://dygonza.esmartweb.com/evonline2003/week2/chat_on_blogs.htm
                    Don Carroll <dcarroll@...> wrote:Vance,

                    Thanks for the pointers on blogs. I've looked through a lot of
                    this. Questions remaining:

                    1. What's a rubric vs. a blog?
                    2. Does anyone have anything negative to say about Blogger.com?
                    3. Does anyone have any preferences among the free blog software mentions
                    in the Campbell article?
                    4. What experiences (good and bad) have you all have with blogs (with
                    students)?

                    All these questions are in preparation for an online "exploratory" course
                    I'll be doing next April.

                    --Don



                    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    evonline2002_webheads-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    For more information:
                    http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/evonline2002/webheads.htm

                    When replying to postings, please delete this footer and any other extraneous text from the reply - Thanks!!

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                  • dafne Chavez
                    Dear Don and All, A rubric is a performance-based evaluation instrument. Check these sites to find out what they are, how to use them, and how to design them.
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 4, 2003
                      Dear Don and All,
                      A rubric is a performance-based evaluation instrument. Check these sites to find out what they are, how to use them, and how to design them.
                      http://stone.web.brevard.k12.fl.us/html/comprubric.html#Rubric
                      http://home.socal.rr.com/exworthy/rubric.htm
                      I have been using rubrics for years in my f2f courses, and I have incorporated them to my online evaluation courses.
                      Daf
                      Don Carroll <dcarroll@...> wrote:Vance,

                      Thanks for the pointers on blogs. I've looked through a lot of
                      this. Questions remaining:

                      1. What's a rubric vs. a blog?
                      --Don






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                    • Don Carroll
                      Dear all, First, I want to apologize for the perhaps excessively negative tone of my post on webcams. Being the technophile I am (how could anyone with 11
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 4, 2003
                        Dear all,

                        First, I want to apologize for the perhaps excessively negative tone of my
                        post on webcams. Being the technophile I am (how could anyone with 11
                        cameras and three computers not be considered a technophile?) I will
                        probably have a webcam too before the year is out. I was just registering
                        in as straight forward a way as possible my own personal response to my
                        first webcam experience -- I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from
                        exploring this technology.

                        I think a lot of one's impression of the usefulness of webcam technology
                        rests on the importance one places on the social dimension to the Webheads
                        experience. While I appreciate the cosy (hugelig?) atmosphere fostered in
                        WIA, for me personally, it is not the key factor in my involvement. I have
                        been just as "personally" involved in other CoP's (for example the LANG-USE
                        and ETHNO list) where "social" communication was discouraged. I guess I'm
                        just more of "just the facts ma'am" sort of guy. I may also be more
                        comfortable with a more confrontational style of interaction (ETHNO was
                        often quite confrontational with a "if you can't take the heat, stay out of
                        the kitchen" tone).

                        As for voice chat, well, I'm totally sold. All that took was 5 minutes
                        talking to my daughter in faraway California! What a wonder it was to sit
                        here with my wife, Linda, and talk (and laugh ) with our teenage daughter
                        on the other side of the Pacific. And for free.

                        I still stick by my assertion that webcam technology is "not yet there" as
                        a tool for CMC and like Michael would be hesitant to use it with students
                        for any learning purpose. However, I can also appreciate Dafne's point of
                        view that webcaming might be an effective psychological/motivational tool
                        for those many students who perhaps still see the computer as an inhuman --
                        and dehumanizing -- machine.

                        --Don
                      • Don Carroll
                        Hi everyone, Can anyone point me to information about creating and using weblogs. I ve already found somethings on the webheads site and played around with
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 4, 2003
                          Hi everyone,

                          Can anyone point me to information about creating and using weblogs. I've
                          already found somethings on the webheads site and played around with
                          Blogger at bit. Can anyone offer any personal experience. I would like to
                          get students doing both an individual blog as well as contributing to a
                          "community blog."

                          --Don
                        • Don Carroll
                          Vance, Thanks for the pointers on blogs. I ve looked through a lot of this. Questions remaining: 1. What s a rubric vs. a blog? 2. Does anyone have
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 4, 2003
                            Vance,

                            Thanks for the pointers on blogs. I've looked through a lot of
                            this. Questions remaining:

                            1. What's a rubric vs. a blog?
                            2. Does anyone have anything negative to say about Blogger.com?
                            3. Does anyone have any preferences among the free blog software mentions
                            in the Campbell article?
                            4. What experiences (good and bad) have you all have with blogs (with
                            students)?

                            All these questions are in preparation for an online "exploratory" course
                            I'll be doing next April.

                            --Don
                          • a.muhren@quicknet.nl
                            Hello everyone, It was certainly a well-spent afternoon and evening for me last Sunday inside and outside TappedIn with plenty of socialising, learning and
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 4, 2003
                              Hello everyone,

                              It was certainly a well-spent afternoon and evening for me last Sunday
                              inside and outside TappedIn with plenty of socialising, learning and what
                              not. BJ showed me the ropes and took me round TappedIn (now) and TappedIn
                              (soon) - all within the 20 minutes or so we had before the crowd came in.

                              It was the spitting image of a physical reception as I have sometimes
                              experienced them in real life. Soon I was gazing in all directions with
                              severe focussing problems - speechless and not a little lost. Much too fast
                              the clauses rolled down the window filling it and then submerging for good.
                              Detach the window, Arnold. Detach it. Did I hear a voice telling me to do
                              this, or did the words surface from the bubbling on-screen soup? I directed
                              my cursor onto to the tiny right hand corner of the window in a by now
                              age-old Windows-trained reflex. It was better for a while but then the
                              clauses rolled down the full screen with what looked like fiendish
                              acceleration. Where is your handle, Arnold? Your Yahoo handle. I looked
                              about me to see whether it was lying perhaps among the usual things on my
                              desk. It was not. Before I could report this, my inquisitor's name had
                              vanished...

                              But I enjoyed the Dickensian merriment of this lively gathering.

                              Apart from Sunday's TappedIn session during which I met so many of you
                              including Vance, I have had email exchanges with Dafne (earlier on), video
                              and text chat and some audio with Maria in Spain, audio and text chat but
                              no video with Aiden, and text chat with Susanne in Denmark in TappedIn. No
                              doubt there will be chances in the near future to get to know others in
                              similar ways. I certainly look forward to these encounters. My induction so
                              far has been fine.

                              Very kind regards, Arnold
                            • Aiden Yeh
                              Don, I haven t used Dreamweaver, but it sounds interesting and worth trying. I might just give it a go one of these days ;-) I ve given up on Pagebuilder ever
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 4, 2003
                                Don,
                                I haven't used Dreamweaver, but it sounds interesting and worth trying. I might just give it a go one of these days ;-) I've given up on Pagebuilder ever since I started using Frontpage. I'm also using Publisher 2002 but the files do not upload properly in my file manager (Geocities). I haven't figured out the source of the problem yet. If anyone has tried Publisher, I'd appreciate advice and tips.
                                Aiden Yeh




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                              • Don Carroll
                                Dear all -- and especially our hard-working Dafne! ... like our pages to be :-( I don t mean to knock anyone s efforts -- particularly as we are all busy
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 4, 2003
                                  Dear all -- and especially our hard-working Dafne!

                                  >I still prefer web pages, even though mine are not as savvy as Don would
                                  like our pages to be :-(

                                  I don't mean to knock anyone's efforts -- particularly as we are all busy
                                  teachers and not professional web designers. I also appreciate the webhead
                                  doctrine of trying to work with freeware as much as possible so we can see
                                  and work with the sorts of tools we could actually put into our students'
                                  hands (coupled with the doctrine of using "lowest common denominator"
                                  technology).

                                  But would any one of us seriously consider not using a professional word
                                  processor -- opting instead to do all our writing in Notepad, for
                                  example? I think not. As professionals we expect to use professional
                                  tools, whether this be Word, or PowerPoint, Excel, Apple Works, etc. I'm
                                  just making the same argument for webpage and graphic design software. I
                                  think it's great to know how to use PageBuilder at GeoCities so that we can
                                  show students or even to knock out a quick page for ourselves. But it has
                                  nowhere near the power of something like Dreamweaver or Golive (or even
                                  Frontpage).

                                  As far as web design, well...I just think we can/should aspire to greater,
                                  more graphically and organizationally intuitive webpage designs. The HUGE
                                  advantage of web design software like Dreamweaver is that is allows you to
                                  concentrate on design and leave (most) of the drudge work of coding to the
                                  software.

                                  Case in point -- the use of tables, not as table to contain information,
                                  but as grids for structuring the content and layout of the page, which is
                                  of course what creates the first (and I would say most important)
                                  impression on users. While it is certainly possible to create a simple
                                  columns and rows table using HTML code, I defy any but the most outstanding
                                  HTML code-warrior to create the sort of complex grid layouts (e.g merged
                                  cells of different and specific size, etc.) that can be accomplished with a
                                  few strokes of the mouse in Dreamweaver. This is not something
                                  peripheral. This is absolutely central to good page design. Tables allow
                                  you to precisely control the positioning of elements within the frame,
                                  promotes the attractive use of "white space", etc. Tables are not about
                                  columns of information, they are about design and functionality!

                                  Once again I would suggest that those interested look at (and dissect) the
                                  site that Elizabeth seen allow (Powers of 10). Try "cutting apart" the top
                                  banner and navigation buttons by copying and pasting the bits into a
                                  graphics editor. It is very insightful. And tables is what holds all
                                  these bits seemlessly together. Arlyn said a new world was opened up when
                                  she was shown how to display source code. I think a similar blast of
                                  learning will follow site dissection.

                                  Vance once quoted the old saying "When the student is ready, the teacher
                                  will appear" in reference to learning code. I suggest that the same is
                                  true of web layout software.

                                  --Don

                                  PS. I will continue my experiments with Dreamweaver and once I've got more
                                  than half a page, I'll post what I'm working on for (brutally honest)
                                  comments. ; )

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • dafne Chavez
                                  Dear Aiden, Nice to see you around! Hope things are better for you and your family. Since you mentioned Publisher a while ago, I gave it a try, and created a
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                    Dear Aiden,
                                    Nice to see you around! Hope things are better for you and your family.
                                    Since you mentioned Publisher a while ago, I gave it a try, and created a brochure for an online course I will be soon delivering, and you are right, I had to do some HTML editing to have it had the look I wanted once on the web, especially centering the texts, and eliminating empty spaces. Take a look at it, it is in Spanish, but you can see the layout.
                                    http://www.geocities.com/dygonza/curso-uned/folleto.html
                                    If you show me your page, I might be able to help you out.
                                    Hugs and best wishes,
                                    Daf
                                    Aiden Yeh <aidenyeh@...> wrote:
                                    I'm also using Publisher 2002 but the files do not upload properly in my file manager (Geocities). I haven't figured out the source of the problem yet. If anyone has tried Publisher, I'd appreciate advice and tips.
                                    Aiden Yeh










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                                  • a.muhren@quicknet.nl
                                    Hi everyone, Don s post on the use of editors I find helping and inspiring. I suppose we are all at different positions on this road, and with different goals,
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                      Hi everyone,

                                      Don's post on the use of editors I find helping and inspiring. I suppose we
                                      are all at different positions on this road, and with different goals,
                                      aspirations, needs, destinations, and indeed facilities. Being shown the
                                      various perspectives from where we are currently standing is always good
                                      thing, however.

                                      Like Don, I have been using Dreamweaver for some time now and I love it
                                      though a number of possibilities have remained terra incognito for me until
                                      now. That is the beauty of these applications - you can gradually build up
                                      your repertoire. This is a web site I have been developing in Dreamweaver:
                                      www.educatievestad.nl/ol. It is nothing special but it gave me plenty of
                                      satisfaction to get the menus working and the layout arranged the way it
                                      is. (Part of the site will soon be in English we hope.)

                                      The title of the site 'Ondernemend Leren' means 'Enterprising Education' in
                                      English. Our work involves school projects aimed at stimulating
                                      'enterprising' (read: active, independent, initiative taking, authentic)
                                      behaviour in pupils. If members of the community are interested and would
                                      like to know more just send me an email. I think that the kind of projects
                                      we have been doing would also have a place in the foreign language learning
                                      arena. The 'Scottish storyline approach to education' may ring a bell? This
                                      is often the model we are using for the projects.

                                      One example of a project - highly relevant to TEFL/SL - would be the
                                      creation by students of an online magazine. This sounds like a big thing
                                      but it can be done at several different levels of elaboration. By the way,
                                      now that I have had a taste of syncronous communication tools (I had been
                                      an asyncer thus far) I can clearly see how they could also be integrated
                                      and extend the multimedia character of a student 'magazine'.

                                      Arnold
                                    • Don Carroll <dcarroll@sg-u.ac.jp>
                                      Arnold, Congratulations on a beautiful (and functional site)! The drop-down menus are great and the layout is clean and comfortable -- even for someone who
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                        Arnold,

                                        Congratulations on a beautiful (and functional site)! The drop-down
                                        menus are great and the layout is clean and comfortable -- even for
                                        someone who doesn't read Dutch (but can extrapolate a bit from
                                        German -- "unternemendes lernen").

                                        And what a beautiful goal as well: "stimulating 'enterprising' (read:
                                        active, independent, initiative taking, authentic) behaviour"

                                        --Don

                                        www.educatievestad.nl/ol
                                      • Don Carroll <dcarroll@sg-u.ac.jp>
                                        Arnold, Congratulations on a beautiful (and functional site)! The drop-down menus are great and the layout is clean and comfortable -- even for someone who
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                          Arnold,

                                          Congratulations on a beautiful (and functional site)! The drop-down
                                          menus are great and the layout is clean and comfortable -- even for
                                          someone who doesn't read Dutch (but can extrapolate a bit from
                                          German -- "unternemendes lernen").

                                          And what a beautiful goal as well: "stimulating 'enterprising' (read:
                                          active, independent, initiative taking, authentic) behaviour"

                                          --Don

                                          www.educatievestad.nl/ol
                                        • Don Carroll <dcarroll@sg-u.ac.jp>
                                          Arnold, Congratulations on a beautiful (and functional site)! The drop-down menus are great and the layout is clean and comfortable -- even for someone who
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                            Arnold,

                                            Congratulations on a beautiful (and functional site)! The drop-down
                                            menus are great and the layout is clean and comfortable -- even for
                                            someone who doesn't read Dutch (but can extrapolate a bit from
                                            German -- "unternemendes lernen").

                                            And what a beautiful goal as well: "stimulating 'enterprising' (read:
                                            active, independent, initiative taking, authentic) behaviour"

                                            --Don

                                            www.educatievestad.nl/ol
                                          • CJones <edtec2002@yahoo.com>
                                            Hi, Arnold and all, You ve designed some very attractive pages though I can t read German! I just want to add that I started using Dreamweaver 4.0 while taking
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                              Hi, Arnold and all,

                                              You've designed some very attractive pages though I can't read German!

                                              I just want to add that I started using Dreamweaver 4.0 while taking
                                              a course in making a web site. It is still my preferred editor. I
                                              especially like the fact that I can go into the coding and change
                                              things I don't like, especially unnecessary spaces. Dreamweaver MX
                                              is probably better, but it's expensive to upgrade. I use it at
                                              home. On my work computer, I use FrontPage 2000, which you can also
                                              go into and change the code if necessary. I've had pretty good
                                              success in using both editors on the same pages. That is to say that
                                              I edit a page at home in Dreamweaver and later make changes in it in
                                              FrontPage.

                                              I did the summary pages for week 2 in Dreamweaver, and they were
                                              pretty easy to put together. (The time-consuming part was getting
                                              the messages into the appropriate thread of the discussion.)

                                              Chris Jones

                                              --- In evonline2002_webheads@yahoogroups.com, a.muhren@q... wrote:
                                              > Like Don, I have been using Dreamweaver for some time now and I
                                              love it
                                              > though a number of possibilities have remained terra incognito for
                                              me until
                                              > now. That is the beauty of these applications - you can gradually
                                              build up
                                              > your repertoire. This is a web site I have been developing in
                                              Dreamweaver:
                                              > www.educatievestad.nl/ol.
                                            • dafne Chavez
                                              Hi All, I wonder if any of you have double-clicked on the picture on Arnold s page. Great Arnold! I checked the English version. I love the activities.
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                                Hi All,
                                                I wonder if any of you have double-clicked on the picture on Arnold's page. Great Arnold! I checked the English version. I love the activities.
                                                http://www.educatievestad.nl/ol/
                                                Looking forward to chatting with you,
                                                Daf
                                                "CJones <edtec2002@...>" <edtec2002@...> wrote:Hi, Arnold and all,

                                                You've designed some very attractive pages though I can't read German!




                                                ---------------------------------
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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • a.muhren@quicknet.nl
                                                Dear friends, I arrive home, kick off my shoes, have a drink, have a bite, switch my computer on - and within a minute or two I am such a proud monkey. Teresa,
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                                  Dear friends,

                                                  I arrive home, kick off my shoes, have a drink, have a bite, switch my
                                                  computer on - and within a minute or two I am such a proud monkey.

                                                  Teresa, Don, Daf, Chris - thank you for looking at the
                                                  www.educatievestad.nl/ol site. I really appreciate the friendly and
                                                  positive comments in your messages.

                                                  One word of warning though: the picture of the town links to the
                                                  organisation's portal site (www.educatievestad.nl) which is NOT of my own
                                                  making. That one would have been way beyond my present expertise, but -
                                                  more importantly - I would not have designed a site like that at all. Let
                                                  me explain this. This portal site is a Flash site i.e. it is made with
                                                  Macromedia Flash, nearly all of it. Yes, I can understand that you may be
                                                  impressed at first sight, but really if you have a closer look you may well
                                                  modify your initial impressions.

                                                  The ol-subsite has actually been my statement about the portal site. With
                                                  it I have wanted to stress a number of important design elements that are
                                                  quite insufficient or even absent in the portal site which Teresa feels
                                                  intuitively also suffers from (visual) overkill at the expense of
                                                  straightforward information.

                                                  Of course the window opening up on the town is a fine metaphor but did it
                                                  need to be sustained all through the site? I think not. This was a sure way
                                                  to kill the freshness of the image and turn it into a visual burden on the
                                                  site. There are more problems and you will find them no doubt.

                                                  Time consuming, Teresa? The guys who made this Flash-movie needed a lot of
                                                  time - I can tell you that.

                                                  Arnold

                                                  P.S. I see other more useful applications for Flash but that is another story.












                                                  At 09:06 5-2-2003 -0800, you wrote:

                                                  >Hi All,
                                                  >I wonder if any of you have double-clicked on the picture on Arnold's
                                                  >page. Great Arnold! I checked the English version. I love the activities.
                                                  ><http://www.educatievestad.nl/ol/>http://www.educatievestad.nl/ol/
                                                  >Looking forward to chatting with you,
                                                  >Daf
                                                  >"CJones <edtec2002@...>" <edtec2002@...> wrote:Hi, Arnold and all,
                                                  >
                                                  >You've designed some very attractive pages though I can't read German!
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >---------------------------------
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                                                  >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
                                                  >
                                                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  >evonline2002_webheads-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  >
                                                  >For more information:
                                                  ><http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/evonline2002/webheads.htm>http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/evonline2002/webheads.htm
                                                  >
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                                                  ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                • Arlyn Freed
                                                  Thanks for the heads-up, Dafne -- I totally missed clicking on the photo (and thus the entire flash site!). Arnold, that s amazing. I should tell you though,
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                                    Thanks for the heads-up, Dafne -- I totally missed
                                                    clicking on the photo (and thus the entire flash
                                                    site!).

                                                    Arnold, that's amazing.
                                                    I should tell you though, on the entry page (before
                                                    entering the Flash site) all of the hyperlinked
                                                    buttons have "blinking" text, including the text on
                                                    the drop-down menus. This may only appear in Netscape
                                                    (I was using Netscape 7)-- and I wasn't able to find
                                                    the "blink" command anywhere in your source code...
                                                    but it was definitely making me crazy :) Next time
                                                    I'll use IE!
                                                    Congrats on a wonderful site,
                                                    Arlyn


                                                    From: dafne Chavez <dygonza@...>
                                                    Subject: Re: Re: Webpage design -- beyond the basics
                                                    Hi All,
                                                    I wonder if any of you have double-clicked on the
                                                    picture on Arnold's
                                                    page. Great Arnold! I checked the English version. I
                                                    love the
                                                    activities.
                                                    http://www.educatievestad.nl/ol/
                                                    Looking forward to chatting with you,
                                                    Daf

                                                    =====
                                                    Your new home for ESL...http://www.eslhome.com

                                                    __________________________________________________
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                                                  • Vance Stevens
                                                    ... ... I put a mention of your site in your listing on our community page. On the topic of online magazines, have you been following the onlinemag
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Feb 5, 2003
                                                      a.muhren@... wrote:

                                                      > The title of the site 'Ondernemend Leren' means 'Enterprising Education' in
                                                      > English. Our work involves school projects aimed at stimulating
                                                      > 'enterprising' (read: active, independent, initiative taking, authentic)
                                                      > behaviour in pupils.

                                                      <snip>

                                                      > One example of a project - highly relevant to TEFL/SL - would be the
                                                      > creation by students of an online magazine. This sounds like a big thing
                                                      > but it can be done at several different levels of elaboration.

                                                      I put a mention of your site in your listing on our community page.

                                                      On the topic of online magazines, have you been following the onlinemag group EVOnline session? You might check
                                                      it out:

                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/onlinemag

                                                      Vance
                                                    • Vance Stevens
                                                      Thanks Susanne for all your efforts. I m planning to move the screen shots over to the files area if that s ok with you, in the same place I put the screen
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Feb 6, 2003
                                                        Thanks Susanne for all your efforts.

                                                        I'm planning to move the screen shots over to the files area if that's ok with you, in the same place I put the screen dumps I placed there. When I've done that, I'll make links to all those files from our chat logs.

                                                        I'm starting to work on our chat logs. I used to maintain these regularly but lately have been snowed under with other tasks taking greater priority. I know that many of your have enjoyed being able to find our logs online, and I'm trying to update them now, starting with Sus's comments below.

                                                        You can check progress here:
                                                        http://sites.hsprofessional.com/vstevens/files/efi/chatlogs.htm

                                                        Vance

                                                        "susannenyrop " wrote:

                                                        > Hi all,
                                                        >
                                                        > as I made a good deal of screen dumps (or images) from our
                                                        > webcam practice today, I have uploaded four or five of them in
                                                        > our Photos folder. They're not very small, about 200 kb each I
                                                        > think - but if I make a lower quality tha demands less disk space
                                                        > and download time, it is not easy to see who's who any longer.
                                                        >
                                                        > We started in Tapped In as usual but moved to yahoo
                                                        > Messenger because a lot of webcams were at hand. I have one
                                                        > picture with nine cams up! Many of you seemed to have great fun
                                                        > with voice -

                                                        etc etc, posted on our web pages,
                                                        V
                                                      • a.muhren@quicknet.nl
                                                        ... Thank you very much for mentioning this, Arlyn. I don t know how this can happen. It is definitely not intended. I do not like blinking at all - unless it
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Feb 6, 2003
                                                          Arlyn wrote:

                                                          >I should tell you though, on the entry page (before
                                                          >entering the Flash site) all of the hyperlinked
                                                          >buttons have "blinking" text, including the text on
                                                          >the drop-down menus. This may only appear in Netscape
                                                          >(I was using Netscape 7)-- and I wasn't able to find
                                                          >the "blink" command anywhere in your source code...
                                                          >but it was definitely making me crazy :) Next time
                                                          >I'll use IE!


                                                          Thank you very much for mentioning this, Arlyn. I don't know how this can
                                                          happen. It is definitely not intended. I do not like blinking at all -
                                                          unless it is on a virtual ambulance :-). You Netscape version is rendering
                                                          'blinking' for inserted code - that's for sure but which code? I don't know
                                                          - will look into this.

                                                          Anybody to shed light light on this mystery - Netscape experts among us?

                                                          Arnold









                                                          >Congrats on a wonderful site,
                                                          >Arlyn
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > From: dafne Chavez <dygonza@...>
                                                          >Subject: Re: Re: Webpage design -- beyond the basics
                                                          >Hi All,
                                                          >I wonder if any of you have double-clicked on the
                                                          >picture on Arnold's
                                                          >page. Great Arnold! I checked the English version. I
                                                          >love the
                                                          >activities.
                                                          ><http://www.educatievestad.nl/ol/>http://www.educatievestad.nl/ol/
                                                          >Looking forward to chatting with you,
                                                          >Daf
                                                          >
                                                          >=====
                                                          >Your new home for ESL...<http://www.eslhome.com>http://www.eslhome.com
                                                          >
                                                          >__________________________________________________
                                                          >Do you Yahoo!?
                                                          >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                                                          ><http://mailplus.yahoo.com>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                                                          >
                                                          >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                          >evonline2002_webheads-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >
                                                          >For more information:
                                                          ><http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/evonline2002/webheads.htm>http://www.geocities.com/vance_stevens/papers/evonline2002/webheads.htm
                                                          >
                                                          >When replying to postings, please delete this footer and any other
                                                          >extraneous text from the reply - Thanks!!
                                                          >
                                                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                                          ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                        • a.muhren@quicknet.nl
                                                          On the topic of online magazines, have you been following the onlinemag group EVOnline session? You might check it out:
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Feb 6, 2003
                                                            "On the topic of online magazines, have you been following the onlinemag
                                                            group EVOnline session? You might check it out:
                                                            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/onlinemag>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/onlinemag>onlinemag"

                                                            No, I haven't yet, Vance. I did notice the group earlier on but I lost
                                                            track of it. I will have a look now - this comes in handy. Thanks
                                                            Arnold
                                                          • a.muhren@quicknet.nl
                                                            ... Eureka! Got it - just look at this set from my cascading style sheet which provides part of the formatting for the pages: font-family: Arial, Helvetica,
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Feb 6, 2003
                                                              I wrote to Arlyn:

                                                              >Thank you very much for mentioning this, Arlyn. I don't know how this can
                                                              >happen. It is definitely not intended. I do not like blinking at all -
                                                              >unless it is on a virtual ambulance :-). You Netscape version is rendering
                                                              >'blinking' for inserted code - that's for sure but which code? I don't know
                                                              >- will look into this.


                                                              Eureka! Got it - just look at this set from my cascading style sheet which
                                                              provides part of the formatting for the pages:

                                                              font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
                                                              font-size: 12px;
                                                              background-color: #6699CC;
                                                              color: #FFFFCC;
                                                              height: 20px;
                                                              width: 130px;
                                                              font-variant: normal;
                                                              font-weight: normal;
                                                              padding: 10px;
                                                              margin: auto;
                                                              float: none;
                                                              clear: none;
                                                              border: 1px none;
                                                              text-decoration: blink;

                                                              The last item is the culprit - I have thrown this little devil right out of
                                                              the style sheet! I really don't remember putting it in there, not
                                                              consciously - but maybe I played around with coding at the time and did
                                                              notice this line had lodged there as well.

                                                              You did not see this code, Arlyn, when you were looking because these bits
                                                              of code are inside a linked style sheet whose contents are not displayed in
                                                              the page's main source code.

                                                              Thank you again. Can you please have another look from Netscape 7 and mail
                                                              me what you see.

                                                              I now realise once more why the experts always insist on checking pages in
                                                              different browsers / browser versions...

                                                              Arnold
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