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News: Paleontologists brought to tears, laughter by Creation Museum

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  • Robert Karl Stonjek
    Paleontologists brought to tears, laughter by Creation MuseumJune 30th, 2009 in Other Sciences / Other [Creation Museum president Ken A. Ham] Ken A. Ham
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 30, 2009
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      Paleontologists brought to tears, laughter by Creation Museum

      June 30th, 2009 in Other Sciences / Other
      Creation Museum president Ken A. HamKen A. Ham President and Chief Executive Officer of Answer in Genesis stands with a mechanical Utahraptor at The Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky, in 2007. For a group of paleontologists, a tour of the Creation Museum, which has been dubbed a "creationist Disneyland," seemed like a great tongue-in-cheek way to cap off a serious conference.

      For a group of paleontologists, a tour of the Creation Museum seemed like a great tongue-in-cheek way to cap off a serious conference.

      But while there were a few laughs and some clowning for the camera, most left more offended than amused by the frightening way in which evolution -- and their life's work -- was attacked.

      "It's sort of a monument to scientific illiteracy, isn't it?" said Jerry Lipps, professor of geology, paleontology and evolution at University of California, Berkeley.

      "Like Sunday school with statues... this is a special brand of religion here. I don't think even most mainstream Christians would believe in this interpretation of Earth's history."

      The 27 million dollar, 70,000-square-foot (6,500-square-metre) museum which has been dubbed a "creationist Disneyland" has attracted 715,000 visitors since it opened in mid-2007 with a vow to "bring the pages of the Bible to life."

      Its presents a literal interpretation of the Bible and argues that believing otherwise leads to moral relativism and the destruction of social values.

      Creationism is a theory not supported by most mainstream Christian churches.

      Lisa Park of the University of Akron cried at one point as she walked a hallway full of flashing images of war, famine and natural disasters which the museum blames on belief in evolution.

      "I think it's very bad science and even worse theology -- and the theology is far more offensive to me," said Park, a professor of paleontology who is an elder in the Presbyterian Church.

      "I think there's a lot of focus on fear, and I don't think that's a very Christian message... I find it a malicious manipulation of the public."

      Phil Jardine posed for a picture below a towering, toothy dinosaur display.

      The museum argues that the fossil record has been misinterpreted and that Tyrannosaurus rex was a vegetarian before Adam and Eve bit into that sin-inducing apple.

      Jardine, a palaeobiologist graduate student from the University of Birmingham, was having fun on the tour, but told a reporter that he was disturbed by the museum's cartoonish portrayal of scientists and teachers.

      "I feel very sorry for teachers when the children who come here start guessing if what they're being taught is wrong," Jardine said.

      Arnie Miller, a palentologist at the University of Cincinnati who was chairman of the convention, said he hoped the tour would introduce the scientists to "the lay of the land" and show them firsthand what's being put forth in a place that has elicited vehement criticism from the scientific community.

      "I think in some cases, people were surprised by the physical quality of the exhibits, but needless to say, they were unhappy with things that are inaccurately portrayed," he said.

      "And there was a feeling of unhappiness, too, about the extent to which mainstream scientists and evolutionists are demonized -- that if you don't accept the Answers in Genesis vision of the history of Earth and life, you're contributing to the ills of society and of the church."

      Daryl Domning, professor of anatomy at Howard University, held his chin and shook his head at several points during the tour.

      "This bothers me as a scientist and as a Christian, because it's just as much a distortion and misrepresentation of Christianity as it is of science," he said.

      "It's not your old-time religion by any means."

      (c) 2009 AFP
      http://www.physorg.com/news165555744.html

      Posted by
      Robert Karl Stonjek

    • Nils K Oeijord
      Dear all! Dawkins famous equation Evolution = God Does Not Exist has created the Creation Museum (se part of article below). Also, Dawkins & Co s claim
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 1, 2009
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        Dear all!

        Dawkins' famous equation Evolution = God Does Not Exist has created the Creation Museum (se part of article below). Also, Dawkins & Co's claim that the evil in history is done by religious people, has contributed a lot to the construction. Dawkins's book and TV series have driven hundreds of millions of religious people away from learning about evolution. In the name of fairness: The Creation Museum is a much welcomed fighting back. I'm pretty sure that the visitors can learn a lot about the evil done by atheists. Hope they are well displaying the history of Hitler applying Darwin's theories in the 1930s and early 1940s. That would be a great appendix to Dawkin's claims.

        Regards
        NKO

        > From: Robert Karl Stonjek [stonjek@...]
        > Sent: 2009-07-01 02:20:09 CEST
        > To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [evol-psych] News: Paleontologists brought to tears, laughter by Creation Museum
        >
        > Paleontologists brought to tears, laughter by Creation MuseumJune 30th,
        > 2009 in Other Sciences / Other
        > [Creation Museum president Ken A. Ham] Ken A. Ham President and Chief
        > Executive Officer of Answer in Genesis stands with a mechanical
        > Utahraptor at The Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky, in 2007. For
        > a group of paleontologists, a tour of the Creation Museum, which has
        > been dubbed a "creationist Disneyland," seemed like a great
        > tongue-in-cheek way to cap off a serious conference.

        [cut]
      • Robert Karl Stonjek
        ... RKS: Hitler was not an atheist. He often refers to God and thought he was doing God s work in eliminating the Jews. God is featured throughout his book
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 1, 2009
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          > Dear all!
          >
          > Dawkins' famous
          equation   Evolution = God Does Not Exist   has created the Creation Museum (se part of article below). Also, Dawkins & Co's claim that the evil in history is done by religious people, has contributed a lot to the construction. Dawkins's book and TV series have driven hundreds of millions of religious people away from learning about evolution.  In the name of fairness: The Creation Museum is a much welcomed fighting back.  I'm pretty sure that the visitors can learn a lot about the evil done by atheists. Hope they are well displaying the history of Hitler applying Darwin's theories in the 1930s and early 1940s. That would be a great appendix to Dawkin's claims.
          >
          > Regards
          > NKO
          >
          RKS:
          Hitler was not an atheist.  He often refers to God and thought he was doing God's work in eliminating the Jews.  God is featured throughout his book "Mien Kampf".
           
          There might have been atheists designing the atomic bomb, but it was Christians who dropped it and who ordered the bomb to be dropped.
           
          I don't agree with Dawkins on that point (if, indeed, he said it).  The bible was clearly written in simpler times and said only what was important to the simpler culture of the day.  Most of what we know to be wrong in Christianity comes from later interpretations of ancient texts.
           
          If God exists, then it exists for all people ~ there is no evidence that any particular tradition correctly interpreted the meaning or nature of God and so from the atheist or agnostic perspective, which has no special allegiance to any religion, we can say that if God exists then we know next to nothing about that God, its powers, history or intentions.
           
          Robert
        • Sonny Williams
          Well said, Robert. I concur completely, and continue to question the scientific credentials of people who think creationism or its modern morph, intelligent
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 1, 2009
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            Well said, Robert.  I concur completely, and continue to question the scientific credentials of people who think creationism or its modern morph, intelligent design, is a reasonable proposition, is anything other than a sham.  Please note that my position has nothing to do with Dawkins nor atheism, and those who suggest I take my cues from either is creating a straw man.
             
            Sonny Williams www.clarencewilliams.net sonnyw@...
            "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
            "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 5:40 AM
            Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Dawkins' Creation Museum

            > Dear all!
            >
            > Dawkins' famous equation   Evolution = God Does Not Exist   has created the Creation Museum (se part of article below). Also, Dawkins & Co's claim that the evil in history is done by religious people, has contributed a lot to the construction. Dawkins's book and TV series have driven hundreds of millions of religious people away from learning about evolution.  In the name of fairness: The Creation Museum is a much welcomed fighting back.  I'm pretty sure that the visitors can learn a lot about the evil done by atheists. Hope they are well displaying the history of Hitler applying Darwin's theories in the 1930s and early 1940s. That would be a great appendix to Dawkin's claims.
            >
            > Regards
            > NKO
            >
            RKS:
            Hitler was not an atheist.  He often refers to God and thought he was doing God's work in eliminating the Jews.  God is featured throughout his book "Mien Kampf".
             
            There might have been atheists designing the atomic bomb, but it was Christians who dropped it and who ordered the bomb to be dropped.
             
            I don't agree with Dawkins on that point (if, indeed, he said it).  The bible was clearly written in simpler times and said only what was important to the simpler culture of the day.  Most of what we know to be wrong in Christianity comes from later interpretations of ancient texts.
             
            If God exists, then it exists for all people ~ there is no evidence that any particular tradition correctly interpreted the meaning or nature of God and so from the atheist or agnostic perspective, which has no special allegiance to any religion, we can say that if God exists then we know next to nothing about that God, its powers, history or intentions.
             
            Robert

          • Donald W. Zimmerman
            ... It is difficult to assign blame to any particular religion, although it is clear that many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, as they
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 1, 2009
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              --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@...> wrote:

              > Hitler was not an atheist. He often refers to God and thought he was doing God's work in eliminating the Jews. God is featured throughout his book "Mien Kampf".
              >
              > There might have been atheists designing the atomic bomb, but it was Christians who dropped it and who ordered the bomb to be dropped.
              >
              > I don't agree with Dawkins on that point (if, indeed, he said it). The bible was clearly written in simpler times and said only what was important to the simpler culture of the day. Most of what we know to be wrong in Christianity comes from later interpretations of ancient texts.
              >
              > If God exists, then it exists for all people ~ there is no evidence that any particular tradition correctly interpreted the meaning or nature of God and so from the atheist or agnostic perspective, which has no special allegiance to any religion, we can say that if God exists then we know next to nothing about that God, its powers, history or intentions.


              It is difficult to assign blame to any particular religion, although it is clear that many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, as they also have in the name of politics, national security, motherhood, protection of the youth, and so on. We need to pay attention to the dictum from statistics 101 that correlation does not imply causation. I would suggest that acts of evil on the part of human beings are not directly caused by belief in God, but rather both are effects of a common cause, which might be called "disrupted cognitive development," "arrested reasoning ability," or perhaps "muddled thinking."

              Since human cognitive processes are dependent on co-evolution of culture, language, and brain physiology, it should come as no surprise that intermediate stages of all the above should be associated with primitive ideas about the origin of the world and the meaning of life, as well as disfunctional interpersonal relations, conflicts among nations, and such.

              This approach also recognizes the possibility that there could, at least in principle, exist "good religions" that do not encourage tantrums over theological concepts, creation, and design, as have the big splashy religions, and are based largely if not exclusively on ethical principles and human compassion.

              Best regards,

              Donald W. Zimmerman
              Vancouver, BC, Canada
              dwzimm@...
              http://mypage.direct.ca/z/zimmerma/index.html
            • Sonny Williams
              Donald, The very essence of organized religion is anethma to social order, to basic human decency. If you re a non-believer, which is defined by the
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 1, 2009
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                Donald,
                 
                The very essence of organized religion is anethma to social order, to basic human decency.  If you're a non-believer, which is defined by the particular religion, then you're castigated to "hell" (however defined)... which means you're fair game for whatever atrocious treatment those in religious power decide.  Organized religion is an abomination that brings out the worst in humans.  Believing in a supernatural being is probably an adapted predisposition, but it will also probably be the instrument of human destruction... unless we destroy all religions and rid the human race of its scourges. 
                 
                Sonny Williams www.clarencewilliams.net sonnyw@...
                "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
                "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 1:52 PM
                Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Dawkins' Creation Museum

                --- In evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@... > wrote:

                > Hitler was not an atheist. He often refers to God and thought he was doing God's work in eliminating the Jews. God is featured throughout his book "Mien Kampf".
                >
                > There might have been atheists designing the atomic bomb, but it was Christians who dropped it and who ordered the bomb to be dropped.
                >
                > I don't agree with Dawkins on that point (if, indeed, he said it). The bible was clearly written in simpler times and said only what was important to the simpler culture of the day. Most of what we know to be wrong in Christianity comes from later interpretations of ancient texts.
                >
                > If God exists, then it exists for all people ~ there is no evidence that any particular tradition correctly interpreted the meaning or nature of God and so from the atheist or agnostic perspective, which has no special allegiance to any religion, we can say that if God exists then we know next to nothing about that God, its powers, history or intentions.

                It is difficult to assign blame to any particular religion, although it is clear that many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, as they also have in the name of politics, national security, motherhood, protection of the youth, and so on. We need to pay attention to the dictum from statistics 101 that correlation does not imply causation. I would suggest that acts of evil on the part of human beings are not directly caused by belief in God, but rather both are effects of a common cause, which might be called "disrupted cognitive development, " "arrested reasoning ability," or perhaps "muddled thinking."

                Since human cognitive processes are dependent on co-evolution of culture, language, and brain physiology, it should come as no surprise that intermediate stages of all the above should be associated with primitive ideas about the origin of the world and the meaning of life, as well as disfunctional interpersonal relations, conflicts among nations, and such.

                This approach also recognizes the possibility that there could, at least in principle, exist "good religions" that do not encourage tantrums over theological concepts, creation, and design, as have the big splashy religions, and are based largely if not exclusively on ethical principles and human compassion.

                Best regards,

                Donald W. Zimmerman
                Vancouver, BC, Canada
                dwzimm@telus. net
                http://mypage. direct.ca/ z/zimmerma/ index.html

              • Joao Sousa
                As Dawkins says: we atheists simply add one more God to the number of Gods we don t believe, in relation to religious people.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 1, 2009
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                  As Dawkins says: we atheists simply add one more God to the number of
                  Gods we don't believe, in relation to religious people.

                  At 02:56 02-07-2009, you wrote:


                  >Donald,
                  >
                  >The very essence of organized religion is anethma to social order,
                  >to basic human decency. If you're a non-believer, which is defined
                  >by the particular religion, then you're castigated to "hell"
                  >(however defined)... which means you're fair game for whatever
                  >atrocious treatment those in religious power decide. Organized
                  >religion is an abomination that brings out the worst in
                  >humans. Believing in a supernatural being is probably an adapted
                  >predisposition, but it will also probably be the instrument of human
                  >destruction... unless we destroy all religions and rid the human
                  >race of its scourges.
                • Donald W. Zimmerman
                  ... DWZ: Agreed. But perhaps believing in a supernatural being is too specific a characteristic to be explained as an adapted predisposition as you suggest.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 1, 2009
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                    --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Sonny Williams" <sonnyw@...> wrote:

                    > The very essence of organized religion is anethma to social order, to basic human decency. If you're a non-believer, which is defined by the particular religion, then you're castigated to "hell" (however defined)... which means you're fair game for whatever atrocious treatment those in religious power decide. Organized religion is an abomination that brings out the worst in humans. Believing in a supernatural being is probably an adapted predisposition, but it will also probably be the instrument of human destruction... unless we destroy all religions and rid the human race of its scourges.


                    DWZ:
                    Agreed. But perhaps "believing in a supernatural being" is too specific a characteristic to be explained as an adapted predisposition as you suggest. I would conjecture that what is inherited is something more general such as "not seeing beyond one's nose," that is, cognitive processes that work well a lot of the time but have definite limits. Because of this limitation, people are prone to soak up without question the ideas taught in their immediate surroundings.

                    The realization that around the bend are other groups with different beliefs and practices comes slowly if at all. It is a large step to recognize that "My tribe is one among many with different beliefs and faiths." It is a still larger step to reason that "They can't all be right, and maybe mine is among those that are wrong!" And then the finest and most truly human leap of all is to reason "Maybe they are all wrong."

                    Best regards.

                    Donald W. Zimmerman
                    Vancouver, BC, Canada
                    dwzimm@...
                    http://mypage.direct.ca/z/zimmerma/index.html
                  • Mark Hubey
                    ... The social-order is an anathema to social order. If you break the social-order (e.g. murder) then you re castigated to hell-on earth, as you should be,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 2, 2009
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                      Sonny Williams wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Donald,
                      >
                      > The very essence of organized religion is anethma to social order, to
                      > basic human decency.

                      The social-order is an anathema to social order. If you break the
                      social-order (e.g. murder) then
                      you're castigated to hell-on earth, as you should be, because it is
                      negative feedback that keeps
                      stability in dynamical systems.

                      > If you're a non-believer, which is defined by the particular religion,
                      > then you're castigated to "hell" (however defined)... which means
                      > you're fair game for whatever atrocious treatment those in religious
                      > power decide.


                      --
                      Regards,

                      H.M. Hubey
                    • Sonny Williams
                      Donald, Interesting research suggests we are hard-wired to believe in a supernatural agent. See: Debora Kelemen (2004), Are children intuitive theists ?:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 2, 2009
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                        Donald,
                         
                        Interesting research suggests we are hard-wired to believe in a supernatural agent.  See: Debora Kelemen (2004), “Are children ‘intuitive theists’?: Reasoning about purpose and design in nature,” Psychological Science, Volume 15, Number 5, May 2004, pp. 295-301.
                         
                        Sonny Williams www.clarencewilliams.net sonnyw@...
                        "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
                        "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:46 PM
                        Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Dawkins' Creation Museum

                        --- In evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com, "Sonny Williams" <sonnyw@...> wrote:

                        > The very essence of organized religion is anethma to social order, to basic human decency. If you're a non-believer, which is defined by the particular religion, then you're castigated to "hell" (however defined)... which means you're fair game for whatever atrocious treatment those in religious power decide. Organized religion is an abomination that brings out the worst in humans. Believing in a supernatural being is probably an adapted predisposition, but it will also probably be the instrument of human destruction. .. unless we destroy all religions and rid the human race of its scourges.

                        DWZ:
                        Agreed. But perhaps "believing in a supernatural being" is too specific a characteristic to be explained as an adapted predisposition as you suggest. I would conjecture that what is inherited is something more general such as "not seeing beyond one's nose," that is, cognitive processes that work well a lot of the time but have definite limits. Because of this limitation, people are prone to soak up without question the ideas taught in their immediate surroundings.

                        The realization that around the bend are other groups with different beliefs and practices comes slowly if at all. It is a large step to recognize that "My tribe is one among many with different beliefs and faiths." It is a still larger step to reason that "They can't all be right, and maybe mine is among those that are wrong!" And then the finest and most truly human leap of all is to reason "Maybe they are all wrong."

                        Best regards.

                        Donald W. Zimmerman
                        Vancouver, BC, Canada
                        dwzimm@telus. net
                        http://mypage. direct.ca/ z/zimmerma/ index.html

                      • Wade Allsopp
                        I am as a strident an atheist as anyone, but I think your first claim is dubious. In my viewa major function of organised religion is to solidify and maintain
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 2, 2009
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                          I am as a strident an atheist as anyone, but I think your first claim is  dubious.  In my view
                          a major function of organised religion is to solidify and maintain social structures.

                          Of  course there will always be exceptions, but by and large organised religions are inherently conservative 
                          institutions.  They are typically lead by the most conservative elements of societies: old men and based on their interpretation of centuries old scriptures and traditions.  Followers are exhorted to accept the word of these old men on blind faith and thinking for oneself is highly discouraged. People are encouraged to  accept their lot within society and do what they are told so that they can reap their reward in an afterlife.

                          Surely these things help maintain and solidify social order then than be anathema to it as Sonny  suggests.

                          Wade

                          2009/7/2 Sonny Williams <sonnyw@...>


                          Donald,
                           
                          The very essence of organized religion is anethma to social order, to basic human decency.  If you're a non-believer, which is defined by the particular religion, then you're castigated to "hell" (however defined)... which means you're fair game for whatever atrocious treatment those in religious power decide.  Organized religion is an abomination that brings out the worst in humans.  Believing in a supernatural being is probably an adapted predisposition, but it will also probably be the instrument of human destruction... unless we destroy all religions and rid the human race of its scourges. 
                           
                          Sonny Williams www.clarencewilliams.net sonnyw@...
                          "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
                          "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 1:52 PM
                          Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Dawkins' Creation Museum

                          --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@...> wrote:

                          > Hitler was not an atheist. He often refers to God and thought he was doing God's work in eliminating the Jews. God is featured throughout his book "Mien Kampf".
                          >
                          > There might have been atheists designing the atomic bomb, but it was Christians who dropped it and who ordered the bomb to be dropped.
                          >
                          > I don't agree with Dawkins on that point (if, indeed, he said it). The bible was clearly written in simpler times and said only what was important to the simpler culture of the day. Most of what we know to be wrong in Christianity comes from later interpretations of ancient texts.
                          >
                          > If God exists, then it exists for all people ~ there is no evidence that any particular tradition correctly interpreted the meaning or nature of God and so from the atheist or agnostic perspective, which has no special allegiance to any religion, we can say that if God exists then we know next to nothing about that God, its powers, history or intentions.

                          It is difficult to assign blame to any particular religion, although it is clear that many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, as they also have in the name of politics, national security, motherhood, protection of the youth, and so on. We need to pay attention to the dictum from statistics 101 that correlation does not imply causation. I would suggest that acts of evil on the part of human beings are not directly caused by belief in God, but rather both are effects of a common cause, which might be called "disrupted cognitive development," "arrested reasoning ability," or perhaps "muddled thinking."

                          Since human cognitive processes are dependent on co-evolution of culture, language, and brain physiology, it should come as no surprise that intermediate stages of all the above should be associated with primitive ideas about the origin of the world and the meaning of life, as well as disfunctional interpersonal relations, conflicts among nations, and such.

                          This approach also recognizes the possibility that there could, at least in principle, exist "good religions" that do not encourage tantrums over theological concepts, creation, and design, as have the big splashy religions, and are based largely if not exclusively on ethical principles and human compassion.

                          Best regards,

                          Donald W. Zimmerman
                          Vancouver, BC, Canada
                          dwzimm@...
                          http://mypage.direct.ca/z/zimmerma/index.html

                          __._
                        • Sonny Williams
                          Wade, Certainly, organized religion acts to solidify social order... for the close-knit community, the in-group. That s why it arose in human beings. My
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 3, 2009
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                            Wade,
                             
                            Certainly, organized religion acts to solidify social order... for the close-knit community, the in-group.  That's why it arose in human beings.  My point is that it is anethema to world social order.  Human social order is now wordly, and organized religion is anethema, is ruinous to a world social order.  That's why religions aggressively recruit new members, to impose their order on people with different beliefs.
                             
                            Sonny Williams www.clarencewilliams.net sonnyw@...
                            "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
                            "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:49 PM
                            Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Dawkins' Creation Museum

                            I am as a strident an atheist as anyone, but I think your first claim is  dubious.  In my view

                            a major function of organised religion is to solidify and maintain social structures.
                          • Wade Allsopp
                            Nice try Sonny So what you really mean is organized religion is a major threat to Global Peace not anathema to social order LOL. Well I wouldn t disagree
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 3, 2009
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                              Nice try Sonny

                              So  what you really mean is organized religion is a major threat to Global Peace not "anathema to social order" LOL.  Well I wouldn't disagree with that, though it's worth remembering that our views are probably coloured by the current prominence of the major monotheistic desert religions, and in particular Christianity and Islam.  If Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and the Bahai faith were dominant, we would probably not be so worried.  I know that militant Hinduism has become rather nasty, but my impression is that this is primarily a reaction to the encroachment of Islam into Hindu areas.

                              My reading of ancient history (and I don't claim to be an expert), is that Gods were considered as more akin to additional (invisible) team members than reasons for going to war. If you were were victorious, this was seen as prima facie evidence that your Gods were more powerful than the opposition's.

                              2009/7/4 Sonny Williams <sonnyw@...>


                              Wade,
                               
                              Certainly, organized religion acts to solidify social order... for the close-knit community, the in-group.  That's why it arose in human beings.  My point is that it is anethema to world social order.  Human social order is now wordly, and organized religion is anethema, is ruinous to a world social order.  That's why religions aggressively recruit new members, to impose their order on people with different beliefs.
                               
                              Sonny Williams www.clarencewilliams.net sonnyw@...
                              "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
                              "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:49 PM
                              Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Dawkins' Creation Museum

                              I am as a strident an atheist as anyone, but I think your first claim is  dubious.  In my view

                              a major function of organised religion is to solidify and maintain social structures.

                              __
                            • Sonny Williams
                              Yes, Wade, I think organized religion is a major threat to world peace, tends to fracture people into competing groups. My understanding of ancient,
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 4, 2009
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                                Yes, Wade, I think organized religion is a major threat to world peace, tends to fracture people into competing groups.  My understanding of ancient, pre-Christian, pre-Jewish and pre-Muslim history is that gods (not capitalized) were simply natural agents that could not be seen.  Only their acts could be observed.
                                 
                                Sonny Williams www.clarencewilliams.net sonnyw@...
                                "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
                                "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:44 PM
                                Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Dawkins' Creation Museum

                                Nice try Sonny


                                So  what you really mean is organized religion is a major threat to Global Peace not "anathema to social order" LOL.  Well I wouldn't disagree with that, though it's worth remembering that our views are probably coloured by the current prominence of the major monotheistic desert religions, and in particular Christianity and Islam.  If Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and the Bahai faith were dominant, we would probably not be so worried.  I know that militant Hinduism has become rather nasty, but my impression is that this is primarily a reaction to the encroachment of Islam into Hindu areas.

                                My reading of ancient history (and I don't claim to be an expert), is that Gods were considered as more akin to additional (invisible) team members than reasons for going to war. If you were were victorious, this was seen as prima facie evidence that your Gods were more powerful than the opposition's.

                                2009/7/4 Sonny Williams <sonnyw@...>


                                Wade,
                                 
                                Certainly, organized religion acts to solidify social order... for the close-knit community, the in-group.  That's why it arose in human beings.  My point is that it is anethema to world social order.  Human social order is now wordly, and organized religion is anethema, is ruinous to a world social order.  That's why religions aggressively recruit new members, to impose their order on people with different beliefs.
                                 
                                Sonny Williams www.clarencewilliam s.net sonnyw@...
                                "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
                                "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:49 PM
                                Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Dawkins' Creation Museum

                                I am as a strident an atheist as anyone, but I think your first claim is  dubious.  In my view

                                a major function of organised religion is to solidify and maintain social structures.

                                __

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