Re: [evol-psych] Is Free Will an Illusion?
- On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:sussab@...However even rabbits have free will just as humans do in the sense that they as bounded independent organisms initiate actions within the boundaries of their beings which are not completely determined by external events (causes).All 'higher' (down to very low levels actually certainly including at least some aspects of insect behavior) organisms have free will in this sense.
I am finally able to agree with Edgar on free will. Yes, defined like that, we all have free will. In the brain there are populations of neurons with intrinsic rhythm. Their membrane potential fluctuates with a certain frequency, causing them to fire intermittently and thereby activate other neurons.This firing is of course modulated by outside influence (metabolites, light (indirectly, via retina-pineal-connections etc), but as long as the organism's brain is alive, they are able to fire without input external to the cell itself.However, with this as a criterium, we will have to include plants and bacteria in the group of organisms with free will, they all have ion channels that change their permeability without stimulus from outside the cell.Sussa
IMO there is no such thing as free will.. A creation is oncapable of what its creator endowed it with.. which is reaction to certain stimuli and only particular reactions.
Although all is rigedly fixed, it is fixed in such a way which "appears" to allow for a vague, minute degree or definite type of latitude & this latitude most resolute! Sort of like a dog chained to a pole, it can roam around to some extent however its miniscule domain is specific & thus set! This scenario can but infer that while certain "set" options are possible others are not. It is this fixed "liberty" which many confuse with free will. I must contend that various alternatives & choices "might" be open if only certain ones. I believe there "might" be some latitude in a beings life & that being may be given, say, five choices & it's most "probable" that it's been predetermined which choice he will make but never-the-less he's given a choice, if you choose to call it that. Lets assume for the sake of argument that someone knows you better than you know yourself & that someone rounds up five members of the opposite sex, all relatively good looking & charming however different as day & night. I staunchly believe it can be ascertained beforehand, prior to your ever having layed eyes or ears upon them, which one, above the others, will capture your fancy! This once again is what is confused with free will. Free in a limited fashion as the possibilities are fixed & in certain situations one has a choice between two evils & must choose between the lesser of them but how does one know why or even what makes them choose what they do? They might choose to believe that they reasoned it out but then again why do they then reason the "only" one way that they do? Six of one, half a dozen of another & wolfs howl at the moon?
--- On Fri, 5/15/09, Robert Karl Stonjek <stonjek@...> wrote:
From: Robert Karl Stonjek <stonjek@...>
Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Is Free Will an Illusion?
To: "Evolutionary-Psychology" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Date: Friday, May 15, 2009, 7:25 PM----- Original Message -----From: Edgar OwenSent: Saturday, May 16, 2009 10:27 AMSubject: Re: [evol-psych] Is Free Will an Illusion?Sonny,No Sonny, the answer is yes. All you have to do is understand that there is no determinism anywhere in the world because of quantum random effects. Thus the actions of any organism cannot be completely determined by external influences. Greatly so sure, but completely so impossible.EdgarRKS:
If this is so then the individual can not predict the outcome of quantum random effect either, so they are not free either. If you can't control (predict) your own behaviour then you are not free.Robert