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Re: [evol-psych] Porn in the USA: Conservatives Are Biggest Consumers

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  • Orlando Döhring
    The URL for Julienne s article is at: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16680-porn-in-the-usa-conservatives-are-biggest-consumers.html There are also other
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 28, 2009
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      The URL for Julienne's article is at: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16680-porn-in-the-usa-conservatives-are-biggest-consumers.html

      There are also other countries which have these double moral standard. Like Turkey. Child-Sex Case Grips Turkey Amid Religious Young-Brides Split: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=adMYJfm7OC2I&refer=germany

      "By Ben Holland


      Child-Sex Case Grips Turkey Amid Religious Young-Brides Split
      Email | Print | A A A

      By Ben Holland

      Nov. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Huseyin Uzmez denies having sex with a 14-year-old girl. He just defends a man’s right to marry one.

      Uzmez, 76, a columnist at Turkey’s Islamist Vakit newspaper, is pleading not guilty to charges of sexually abusing a minor in a case that has gripped the country of 70 million. Since his release on bail on Oct. 28, Uzmez has publicly defended Islamic rules that permit girls to wed below the legal age of 16.

      “A girl who’s reached puberty, who’s having periods, is of age, according to our beliefs,” Uzmez told national television the day he got out. “And if she’s of age, she can marry.”

      Uzmez returns to court on Dec. 16. Whatever the eventual outcome, the case has widened the gulf between Turks promoting Islamic law and those who support the secular system put in place by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in the 1920s. The state religious authority, which employs imams at Turkey’s 80,000 mosques, opposes child marriage, though the practice remains rife.

      Thirty-nine percent of married women in the southern province of Sanliurfa were 16 or younger on their wedding day, according to the Istanbul-based Social Democracy Foundation, which is campaigning against the practice.

      They typically marry in religious ceremonies and delay civil marriage until they’re of age, according to the foundation.

      “As long as you have people in Turkey who say this is okay and who use Islam to justify it, it remains a big problem,” says Amanda Akcakoca, an analyst at the European Policy Center in Brussels. “When people think Turkey, they think human-rights violations and problems with women’s rights.”

      Out on Bail

      Uzmez is accused of the abuse of the girl, called B.C. in the indictment, on several occasions in Istanbul and Bursa provinces. His first hearing was in September in Bursa, northwest Turkey. He was released after a second hearing, when the court ruled he no longer needed to be kept in jail.

      His lawyer, Bulent Demir, says Uzmez will be found not guilty next month because there is no forensic evidence. He also argues that Uzmez is the victim of a witch hunt that was intensified because of his religious background.

      “Without waiting for the result of the court case, everyone’s behaving as if he did it,” Demir said in an interview. “His Islamic identity has been used as a weapon against him.”

      The Milliyet newspaper’s cover story on Nov. 21, illustrated with a photo of Uzmez, cited forensic data showing that as many as 120 child-abuse cases are being reported each week. “Turkey, What Happened to You?” was the front-page headline.

      Longer Sentences?

      After Uzmez’s release, female lawmakers from Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s party responded by proposing laws doubling prison sentences for child abuse.

      Fatma Sahin, a sponsor of the child crime bill, said the Uzmez case is “upsetting” and highlights the need for penalties that are “tough enough to deter.” It has nothing to do with religion, she said.

      Erdogan, 54, has passed human-rights laws, many aimed at protecting women, as part of his bid to edge Turkey closer to the European Union. It started membership talks in 2005.

      A 2004 overhaul of the penal code stiffened penalties for so-called “honor killings,” the murder of women seen as staining a family’s reputation, and classified rape within marriage as a crime for the first time.

      Sahin said Turkey, which ranked 123rd of 130 countries in a World Economic Forum study of gender equality, is “weaker on the implementation” of such measures.

      ‘Serious Problem’

      The EU’s Nov. 5 report on Turkey’s progress to membership said “domestic violence, honor killings and early and forced marriages are still a serious problem.”

      At the same time, Erdogan also has promoted measures that opposition parties say were inspired by Islam.

      This year, he attempted to end the ban on Islamic-style headscarves at universities. That law, later overturned by the Constitutional Court, prompted prosecutors to demand Erdogan be removed from politics for undermining the secular constitution. In 2004, he tried to make adultery a crime, dropping his proposal only after EU pressure.

      Uzmez’s comments showed how religious culture in Turkey can be oppressive, according to Canan Aritman, a lawmaker from the opposition Republican People’s Party.

      Aritman said she has needed 24-hour armed protection since March, after she called on families not to make their young daughters wear Islamic-style headscarves. Such practices deny girls the right to remain children, she said. Aritman said she frequently meets women who are aware of sexual abuse within their own families, though they feel powerless to stop it.

      Left on the Street?

      “I’ve told a lot of women that they have to go to the courts, but they refuse,” Aritman said. “They say they’ll be left on the street.”

      Levels of abuse in Turkey are probably no different than in Western Europe, though are half as likely to be reported, said Fatih Yavuz, a specialist in forensic medicine at Istanbul University who is regularly consulted in child abuse cases.

      Gulsun Kanat, whose Purple Roof Foundation helps women who suffer from domestic violence, said she’s concerned about the Uzmez case because his prestige as a writer on religion backs up his comments on sexual maturity and marriage.

      “It gives other people the green light,” she said.

      To contact the reporter on this story: Ben Holland in Istanbul at bholland1@.... Last Updated: November 26, 2008 19:04 EST
      "


      This case of Charlotte, 13, and Marco, 17, deals with supposedly wrong allegations of rape to cover the lack of supervision and responsibility by the mother during that night. They were in a disco and had a few alcoholic drinks. Then they went to Charlotte's room. After some time the sexual activities started. Marco says it was consensual sex. But apparently Charlotte got raped though 2 further people were on the room's balcony and another girl in the room. Charlotte refused to give testimony in Turkey. Marco was imprisoned on a rather long pre-trial confinement. The case was big news for several month in the German press. You should also go to the TIMES web page and read the comments. "Countries clash over teenage 'sex assault' row": http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1987673.ece


      "From The Times June 27, 2007

      Countries clash over teenage 'sex assault' row

      Roger Boyes in Berlin

      Ankara and Berlin were at loggerheads yesterday over the fate of a German teenager who is being held in a Turkish jail on charges of sexually assaulting a 13-year-old British girl.

      Marco Weiss, 17, a volunteer with a German aid agency, is accused of assaulting the girl, who is from Manchester, at a hotel in the resort of Antalya during the Easter holiday. He was arrested after the girl’s mother filed a complaint against him.

      The German Government has lodged an official protest on behalf of Mr Weiss, who has been detained since April 11.

      Frank Walter Steinmeier, the Foreign Minister, has urged Abdullah Gul, his Turkish counterpart, to arrange bail for the youth, who is sharing a cell with 30 other prisoners. Both Mr Gul and Ali Babacan, Turkey’s chief negotiator for the country’s accession to the EU, claim that little can be done.

      “We cannot and do not want to interfere in a judicial matter,” said Mr Babacan, who met Mr Steinmeier yesterday. “The Government, however, will do everything in its power to secure a fair hearing.”

      According to Mr Weiss’s testimony he accompanied the girl back to her room, where they kissed and cuddled on a double bed but did not have sex. German newspapers say that a medical examination has confirmed this.

      Turkey has requested help from the British police in questioning the girl, known as Charlotte M, who has returned home to Manchester.

      Mr Weiss’s plight has been taken up by German newspapers, who claim he is the victim of an injustice that highlights Turkey’s unsuitability for EU membership.

      Much has been made of the conditions at his prison. His cell is overcrowded, the water is undrinkable and medical facilities are scant.

      His parents are allowed just one eight-minute visit a week, and can ill afford frequent trips: Mr Weiss’s father, a taxi driver, is suffering from leukemia. A campaign has been launched to fund his legal defence.

      “It is outrageous how the Turkish judiciary is criminalising this young man,” said Monika Frommel, a German criminologist. “It suggests that the Turks have not yet arrived in Europe.”

      The German Government is under pressure to appeal to Charlotte’s mother to drop her complaint to secure the release of Mr Weiss, who is described as a model student at his school in Uelzen, northern Germany.

      Yesterday Mr Steinmeier said that talks with Turkish ministers would “draw the attention of the Turkish authorities to the case and contribute to the search for a solution so that this young man can swiftly rejoin his family in Germany”. He added that there were “humanitarian aspects” and “schooling requirements” involved.

      Ankara is anxious to avoid a diplomatic row with Berlin over the case but is also keenly aware of EU criticism of government interference with the judiciary, a factor that has counted against its attempts to join the union.

      The EU opened fresh membership talks with Turkey yesterday, launching negotiations on two more policy areas, while a third was blocked amid French misgivings. All candidate countries must complete 35 policy chapters successfully in advance of membership.

      So far Turkey has completed only one successfully, and no more chapters may be closed until it has dropped its trade embargo against Cyprus, which is already a member of the EU."


      Given these prevalent underage marriages in Turkey it is surprising what a mess the case created. Apparently justice is measured by different metrics for Turkish compatriots and foreigners. Turkey's newspaper "Milliyet" published a ranking that Turkey was always among the top three world wide in the internet consumption of sex and search of child porn. For a country that has many Muslims that is pretty much a scandal. But if you check google trends for porn http://www.google.com/trends?q=porn you will find Turkish as second most popular language.

      But maybe Turkish males are just honest that most females become pubescent a few years before they turn 18. And thus Turkish males are naturally evolutionary attracted to them. So the question is on how to judge when a female is ready to get married? Is it legal age or pubescence? I guess if marriage were to interfer less with the progress of education and personal development underage marriage might be less of a problem. But then again wifes are often expected to manage the household and take care of children which is quite the opposite I feel.




    • Mark Hubey
      ... The big problem: at what age can/should a female have sex? Is the fact that they get pregnant important? Who will take care of the offspring? All this
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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        Orlando Döhring wrote:
        >
        >
        > But maybe Turkish males are just honest that most females become
        > pubescent a few years before they turn 18. And thus Turkish males are
        > naturally evolutionary attracted to them. So the question is on how to
        > judge when a female is ready to get married? Is it legal age or
        > pubescence? I guess if marriage were to interfer less with the
        > progress of education and personal development underage marriage might
        > be less of a problem. But then again wifes are often expected to
        > manage the household and take care of children which is quite the
        > opposite I feel.
        >
        >

        The big problem: at what age can/should a female have sex?

        Is the fact that they get pregnant important?

        Who will take care of the offspring?

        All this revolves around the implicit problem of "Is sex natural and organic, like food?"

        Are there other effects on society?

        After this attitude is clarified, the rest of the problems can be tackled.

        If the answer is yes, why then do people get upset at girls at 14 having sex? Do they get upset if 14-yr olds flip burgers?

        Why should it to Ok for 14 yr olds to make 14-yr old girls pregnant (if sex is so natural and organic like food) and not older ones? Who eats burgers flipped by 14-yr olds, other 14-yr olds?

        If it's only about pregnancy, why then don't they pass laws in advanced countries to outfit females with automatic birth control (maybe some device that drips into the bloodstream) for a year or two? Why not give automatic and free abortions to girls under 18? Why not givt automatic and free abortions to girls under 18 who have no visible means of support?

        All these depend crucially on issues of rights, and concept of "nature". Let's face it: (i) this is not rocket science and (ii) people who have traditionally worked on these problems are not rocket scientists. They are like today's financiers; almost total failures with opinions which they have been passing off as "theories".

        There is only one long-range fix: Fix the PMS.

        --
        Regards,

        H.M. Hubey
      • Mark Hubey
        ... Try this: If you are told that you can t kill people at random if you want to, then you want to kill people even more. Let me know which part of this you
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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          Orlando � wrote:
          > "One natural hypothesis is something like repression: if you're told
          > you can't have this, then you want it more," Edelman says.
          >
          > I do not quite see what Mark's problem with the statement. You just
          > should not expect that it applies to any arbitrary issue.

          Try this:
          "If you are told that you can't kill people at random if you want to,
          then you want to kill people even more."

          Let me know which part of this you don't understand.

          --
          Regards,

          H.M. Hubey
        • Mark Hubey
          ... IT is about creating a coherent whole, not in bits and snippets that contradict each other. After all, you can also create a theory based on incoherent
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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            Orlando � wrote:
            >
            >
            > Mark, you were asking a lot of questions. Do you have any suggestions
            > for them or was it meant more rhetorically as some of those questions
            > clearly require the availability of the used datasets?
            >
            > __._,_.

            IT is about creating a coherent whole, not in bits and snippets that contradict each other. After all, you can also create a "theory" based on incoherent babblings. All you have to do is claim that humans are totally irrational and incoherent and that is the way it. It neatly absolves the burger-king PhDs from having to do real science. What IS is not necessarily what OUGHT to be. If all this could be done by psychobabble, ARistotle would have solved all the problems of humanity.

            We are back to the PMS again. And for obvious reasons. That is where all this comes from.

            --
            Regards,

            H.M. Hubey
          • Orlando Döhring
            ... I said this statement does not apply to all contexts. You give an example of where it may not apply. So what? (And actually even given this statement: if
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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              Try this:
              "If you are told that you can't kill people at random if you want to,
              then you want to kill people even more."

              Let me know which part of this you don't understand.

              I said this statement does not apply to all contexts. You give an example of where it may not apply. So what? (And actually even given this statement: if you were a dictator you can could randomly execute anybody modulo a certain minority of "required" people. But usually people refrain from these things due to fear of conviction.)

            • Mark Hubey
              ... Right. Stability of dynamical systems depends on negative feedback. Some things are prohibited. Why? Look at the Yanomamo and the Papuans. Why don t we
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                Orlando Döhring wrote:
                >
                >
                > Try this:
                > "If you are told that you can't kill people at random if you want to,
                > then you want to kill people even more."
                >
                > Let me know which part of this you don't understand.
                >
                >
                > I said this statement does not apply to all contexts. You give an
                > example of where it may not apply. So what? (And actually even given
                > this statement: if you were a dictator you can could randomly execute
                > anybody modulo a certain minority of "required" people. But usually
                > people refrain from these things due to fear of conviction.)
                >

                Right. Stability of dynamical systems depends on negative feedback.

                Some things are prohibited.

                Why?

                Look at the Yanomamo and the Papuans. Why don't we become like them
                and have freedom to kill?

                Why do we have so many restrictions?



                --
                Regards,

                H.M. Hubey
              • R A FONDA
                ... in SPITE of massive propaganda against it and savage legal persecution, has got to be normal from an EP perspective. RAF
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                  A practice this common:
                   
                  > Thirty-nine percent of married women in the southern province of
                  Sanliurfa were 16 or younger on their wedding day, <
                   
                  in SPITE of massive propaganda against it and savage legal persecution, has got to be 'normal' from an EP perspective.
                   
                  RAF
                • Julienne
                  ... No, it doesn t. First it s only 39%. More normal is the 61% who do not marry at that age. Further, normal doesn t mean it has anything to do with EP -
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                    At 12:17 PM 3/1/2009 -0500, R A FONDA wrote:
                    A practice this common:
                     
                    > Thirty-nine percent of married women in the southern province of Sanliurfa were 16 or younger on their wedding day, <
                     
                    in SPITE of massive propaganda against it and savage legal persecution, has got to be 'normal' from an EP perspective.

                    No, it doesn't. First it's only 39%. More "normal" is the 61% who do not marry
                    at that age. Further, "normal" doesn't mean it has anything to do with EP -
                    it may just be the local custom geared to special interests - and those are
                    not the interests of the 16 and younger children.

                    Julienne

                    "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." : Samuel P. Huntington
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    Join us at Chaos-stars@yahoogroups.com for in depth discussion of world events
                    Julienne's Blog: http://www.myspace.com/youandthecosmos 
                    Radio: "You and the Cosmos" Tuesdays, 4:30 pm EDST http://whrwfm.org/listenlive.php

                  • Mark Hubey
                    ... Superiority of organized violence comes from superiority of ideas (calculus, physics, engineering) and values (valuing calculus, physics, engineering,
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                      Julienne wrote:
                      >
                      > "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values
                      > or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence.
                      >
                      Superiority of organized violence comes from superiority of ideas
                      (calculus, physics, engineering) and values (valuing calculus, physics,
                      engineering, etc). We do not know if
                      the religion was instrumental in creating the other two. Some feel that
                      the insistence that
                      the world has order and is comprehensible gave rise to science.
                      Everything goes could
                      not have produced it.

                      > Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." : Samuel
                      > P. Huntington
                      >
                      People usually only see the superficial aspect of everything.

                      That is why they probably pretend it is the other way around.
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      Regards,

                      H.M. Hubey
                    • Mark Hubey
                      ... According to PC it is normal if the unemployed and unemployable teens who are flunking schools impregnate the girls (who are not married) is it normal
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                        R A FONDA wrote:
                        > A practice this common:
                        >
                        > > Thirty-nine percent of married women in the southern province of
                        > Sanliurfa were 16 or younger on their wedding day, <
                        >
                        > in SPITE of massive propaganda against it and savage legal
                        > persecution, has got to be 'normal' from an EP perspective.
                        >
                        According to PC it is normal if the unemployed and unemployable teens
                        who are
                        flunking schools impregnate the girls (who are not married) is it normal
                        unless, of
                        course, they get married and the whole family goes on welfare and food
                        stamps.

                        IT also helps if they become criminals and go to jail. Then the boy gets
                        free room and board, free gym, free medical care, free dental care, and
                        free lawyer.

                        Of course, it is also useful if they are both atheists.

                        Otherwise it is criminal!


                        --
                        Regards,

                        H.M. Hubey
                      • Edgar Owen
                        Julienne, And how, pray tell, do you know what the interests of ethic women and girls in some isolated area of Turkey are with such seeming absolute certainty?
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                          Julienne,


                          And how, pray tell, do you know what the interests of ethic women and girls in some isolated area of Turkey are with such seeming absolute certainty? I certainly don't know what is on their minds having never spoken to or interviewed any of them and I'm certain you haven't either. This is just incredible arrogance on your part to assume you speak for all women on the planet without ever asking them whether they want you to or not. It is simply projecting your own moralizing onto other cultures and if you could I'm certain you would force these young women to adhere to your personal moral standards whether they wanted to or not.

                          Your extreme feminist attitude is moral colonialism pure and simple.


                          Edgar



                          On Mar 1, 2009, at 6:12 PM, Julienne wrote:

                          At 12:17 PM 3/1/2009 -0500, R A FONDA wrote:

                          A practice this common:
                           
                          > Thirty-nine percent of married women in the southern province of Sanliurfa were 16 or younger on their wedding day, <
                           
                          in SPITE of massive propaganda against it and savage legal persecution, has got to be 'normal' from an EP perspective.

                          No, it doesn't. First it's only 39%. More "normal" is the 61% who do not marry
                          at that age. Further, "normal" doesn't mean it has anything to do with EP -
                          it may just be the local custom geared to special interests - and those are 
                          not the interests of the 16 and younger children.

                          Julienne

                          "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." : Samuel P. Huntington
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~
                          Join us at Chaos-stars@ yahoogroups. com for in depth discussion of world events
                          Julienne's Blog: http://www.myspace. com/youandthecos mos  
                          Radio: "You and the Cosmos" Tuesdays, 4:30 pm EDST http://whrwfm. org/listenlive. php


                        • Julienne
                          ... The point isn t just that anyone has superior: ideas - what they apply them to that makes all the difference. Julienne ...
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                            At 06:53 PM 3/1/2009 -0500, Mark Hubey wrote:


                            >Julienne wrote:
                            > >
                            > > "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values
                            > > or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence.
                            > >
                            >Superiority of organized violence comes from superiority of ideas
                            >(calculus, physics, engineering) and values (valuing calculus, physics,
                            >engineering, etc). We do not know if the religion was instrumental in
                            >creating the other two. Some feel that
                            >the insistence that the world has order and is comprehensible gave rise to
                            >science.
                            >Everything goes could not have produced it.

                            The point isn't just that anyone has "superior: ideas - what they apply them to
                            that makes all the difference.

                            Julienne

                            >The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or
                            >religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence.
                            >Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." : Samuel P.
                            >Huntington

                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            Join us at Chaos-stars@yahoogroups.com for in depth discussion of world events
                            Julienne's Blog: http://www.myspace.com/youandthecosmos
                            Radio: "You and the Cosmos" Tuesdays, 4:30 pm EDST
                            http://whrwfm.org/listenlive.php
                          • Julienne
                            ... Yawn. Edgar, we know you support sex with young girls - having been a young girl, I know why so many of us fight child sexual abuse - and dirty old men.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                              At 08:19 PM 3/1/2009 -0500, Edgar Owen wrote:
                              Julienne,


                              And how, pray tell, do you know what the interests of ethic women and girls in some isolated area of Turkey are with such seeming absolute certainty? I certainly don't know what is on their minds having never spoken to or interviewed any of them and I'm certain you haven't either. This is just incredible arrogance on your part to assume you speak for all women on the planet without ever asking them whether they want you to or not. It is simply projecting your own moralizing onto other cultures and if you could I'm certain you would force these young women to adhere to your personal moral standards whether they wanted to or not.

                              Your extreme feminist attitude is moral colonialism pure and simple.

                              Yawn.

                              Edgar, we know you support sex with young girls - having been a young
                              girl, I know why so many of us fight child sexual abuse - and dirty
                              old men.

                              Julienne



                              On Mar 1, 2009, at 6:12 PM, Julienne wrote:

                              At 12:17 PM 3/1/2009 -0500, R A FONDA wrote:
                              A practice this common:
                               
                              > Thirty-nine percent of married women in the southern province of Sanliurfa were 16 or younger on their wedding day, <
                               
                              in SPITE of massive propaganda against it and savage legal persecution, has got to be 'normal' from an EP perspective.

                              No, it doesn't. First it's only 39%. More "normal" is the 61% who do not marry
                              at that age. Further, "normal" doesn't mean it has anything to do with EP -
                              it may just be the local custom geared to special interests - and those are
                              not the interests of the 16 and younger children.

                              Julienne

                              "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." : Samuel P. Huntington
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Join us at Chaos-stars@yahoogroups.com for in depth discussion of world events
                              Julienne's Blog: http://www.myspace.com/youandthecosmos 
                              Radio: "You and the Cosmos" Tuesdays, 4:30 pm EDST http://whrwfm.org/listenlive.php



                              "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." : Samuel P. Huntington
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Join us at Chaos-stars@yahoogroups.com for in depth discussion of world events
                              Julienne's Blog: http://www.myspace.com/youandthecosmos 
                              Radio: "You and the Cosmos" Tuesdays, 4:30 pm EDST http://whrwfm.org/listenlive.php

                            • Mark Hubey
                              ... The point is that you cannot apply ideas that you do not have. And you cannot know that you have superior ideas if you do not apply them (e.g. empiricism).
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                                Julienne wrote:
                                >
                                >> Superiority of organized violence comes from superiority of ideas
                                >> (calculus, physics, engineering) and values (valuing calculus, physics,
                                >> engineering, etc). We do not know if the religion was instrumental in
                                >> creating the other two.
                                >>
                                >
                                > The point isn't just that anyone has "superior: ideas - what they apply them to
                                > that makes all the difference.
                                >

                                The point is that you cannot apply ideas that you do not have.

                                And you cannot know that you have superior ideas if you do not apply
                                them (e.g. empiricism).
                                ( Those that do not use empiricism (proof-evidence-demonstration) have
                                to delude themselves into thinking that
                                they have superior ideas.)

                                --
                                Regards,

                                H.M. Hubey
                              • Mark Hubey
                                Edgar Owen wrote ... Notice that they are screaming Stop Honor Killings . They are not screaming Stop Poverty Killings . Murder is murder. Why select one
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                                  Edgar Owen wrote
                                  >
                                  > Your extreme feminist attitude is moral colonialism pure and simple.
                                  >

                                  Notice that they are screaming "Stop Honor Killings".

                                  They are not screaming "Stop Poverty Killings".

                                  Murder is murder. Why select one specific form of it while claiming
                                  every culture is equal and that the West should stop colonizing other
                                  cultures.

                                  Why not stop Poverty Killings in USA?


                                  --
                                  Regards,

                                  H.M. Hubey
                                • Julienne
                                  ... Mark, you re not saying anything that isn t obvious - and you re going round in circles. Julienne The West won the world not by the superiority of its
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 1, 2009
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                                    At 11:07 PM 3/1/2009 -0500, Mark Hubey wrote:


                                    >Julienne wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >> Superiority of organized violence comes from superiority of ideas
                                    > >> (calculus, physics, engineering) and values (valuing calculus, physics,
                                    > >> engineering, etc). We do not know if the religion was instrumental in
                                    > >> creating the other two.
                                    > >>
                                    > >
                                    > > The point isn't just that anyone has "superior: ideas - what they apply
                                    > them to
                                    > > that makes all the difference.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >The point is that you cannot apply ideas that you do not have.
                                    >
                                    >And you cannot know that you have superior ideas if you do not apply
                                    >them (e.g. empiricism).
                                    >( Those that do not use empiricism (proof-evidence-demonstration) have
                                    >to delude themselves into thinking that
                                    >they have superior ideas.)

                                    Mark, you're not saying anything that isn't obvious - and
                                    you're going round in circles.

                                    Julienne


                                    "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or
                                    religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence.
                                    Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." : Samuel P.
                                    Huntington
                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                    Join us at Chaos-stars@yahoogroups.com for in depth discussion of world events
                                    Julienne's Blog: http://www.myspace.com/youandthecosmos
                                    Radio: "You and the Cosmos" Tuesdays, 4:30 pm EDST
                                    http://whrwfm.org/listenlive.php
                                  • Mark Hubey
                                    ... What you are implying now is that the WEst is more violent. You are also implying that the West chanced accidentally upon Physics, Calculus, etc. And then
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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                                      Julienne wrote:
                                      > At 11:07 PM 3/1/2009 -0500, Mark Hubey wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> Julienne wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>>> Superiority of organized violence comes from superiority of ideas
                                      >>>> (calculus, physics, engineering) and values (valuing calculus, physics,
                                      >>>> engineering, etc). We do not know if the religion was instrumental in
                                      >>>> creating the other two.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>> The point isn't just that anyone has "superior: ideas - what they apply
                                      >>>
                                      >> them to
                                      >>
                                      >>> that makes all the difference.
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >> The point is that you cannot apply ideas that you do not have.
                                      >>
                                      >> And you cannot know that you have superior ideas if you do not apply
                                      >> them (e.g. empiricism).
                                      >> ( Those that do not use empiricism (proof-evidence-demonstration) have
                                      >> to delude themselves into thinking that
                                      >> they have superior ideas.)
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > Mark, you're not saying anything that isn't obvious - and
                                      > you're going round in circles.
                                      >
                                      > Julienne
                                      >

                                      What you are implying now is that the WEst is more violent. You are also
                                      implying that the West
                                      chanced accidentally upon Physics, Calculus, etc. And then the random
                                      science coupled with
                                      natural Violence created it. So the Western Religions apparently are
                                      more violent. Obviously
                                      it must be so in your account of events because the "West" also goes by
                                      the name of Judeo-Christianity.

                                      Islam also belongs to this "West" but apparently according to Huntington
                                      and you, it really belongs to
                                      the East because it is economically underdeveloped and it was colonized.

                                      Which is it?


                                      Let's see how and why you came to this conclusion.

                                      Show that the "East" (e.g. non-West, according to whichever defn you
                                      use) suffered more
                                      than the West suffered during two World Wars.


                                      --
                                      Regards,

                                      H.M. Hubey
                                    • Edgar Owen
                                      Mark, I was speaking about early marriage. I said nothing about honor killings so your comments are irrelevant to my post. Edgar
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 2, 2009
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                                        Mark,

                                        I was speaking about early marriage. I said nothing about 'honor' killings so your comments are irrelevant to my post.

                                        Edgar



                                        On Mar 1, 2009, at 11:12 PM, Mark Hubey wrote:



                                        Edgar Owen wrote
                                        >
                                        > Your extreme feminist attitude is moral colonialism pure and simple.
                                        >

                                        Notice that they are screaming "Stop Honor Killings".

                                        They are not screaming "Stop Poverty Killings".

                                        Murder is murder. Why select one specific form of it while claiming
                                        every culture is equal and that the West should stop colonizing other
                                        cultures.

                                        Why not stop Poverty Killings in USA?

                                        -- 
                                        Regards,

                                        H.M. Hubey


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