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Re: [evol-psych] Re:News: When does human life begin?

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  • Sonny Williams
    We often forget that if the moment of conception is used as the point after which the fetus is a person endowed with Constitutional rights, then we are in the
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 31, 2008
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      We often forget that if the moment of conception is used as the point after which the fetus is a person endowed with Constitutional rights, then we are in the midst of the worst health crisis ever known to man, a crisis that is virtually ignored... a catastrophic loss of persons due to miscarriage.
       
      Sonny Williams
      www.clarencewilliams.net
      sonnyw@...
      "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
      "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:32 AM
      Subject: [evol-psych] Re:News: When does human life begin?

      I think we need to allow for the idea that a human life does not
      "begin" but that life is a continuos form. There are at least three
      quite separate events which can lead to the formation of an
      individual: the formation of an ovacyte/ fertilization of an ova/ and
      total differentiation (twinning). Even these are processes in which it
      is difficult to decide an exact moment of occurance.

      I think birth is just as useful (and maybe moreso) an indicator of the
      "start" of an individual. A sheep might be pregnant, but there isn't a
      lamb until it's born. I have packets of seeds here, but I wouldn't
      call them plants yet.

      Nancy Bovee

    • VQuest95
      Be real people. Life begins when we define it. As Nancy Bovee points our, it is a continuum from conception to birth. There is no ultimate definition of
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 1, 2008
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        Be real people.  Life begins when we define it.  As Nancy Bovee points our, it is a continuum from conception to birth.  There is no "ultimate definition" of life comes from above.  The point on that continuum is where we choose define it.  Unfortunately the "we" is not universally accepted, so it is up to the government(s) to make that decision. 
         
        While I am not knowledgeable to make that decision, I have a book in which the author proposes that we use the point where the brain is completely formed, and the fetus responds to external stimuli.  Sounds reasonable to me. 
         
        Dave A. 
         
         
         
        In a message dated 10/31/08 20:46:46 Eastern Daylight Time, sonnyw@... writes:
        We often forget that if the moment of conception is used as the point after which the fetus is a person endowed with Constitutional rights, then we are in the midst of the worst health crisis ever known to man, a crisis that is virtually ignored... a catastrophic loss of persons due to miscarriage.
         
        Sonny Williams
        www.clarencewilliams.net
        sonnyw@...
        "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
        "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:32 AM
        Subject: [evol-psych] Re:News: When does human life begin?

        I think we need to allow for the idea that a human life does not
        "begin" but that life is a continuos form. There are at least three
        quite separate events which can lead to the formation of an
        individual: the formation of an ovacyte/ fertilization of an ova/ and
        total differentiation (twinning). Even these are processes in which it
        is difficult to decide an exact moment of occurance.

        I think birth is just as useful (and maybe moreso) an indicator of the
        "start" of an individual. A sheep might be pregnant, but there isn't a
        lamb until it's born. I have packets of seeds here, but I wouldn't
        call them plants yet.

        Nancy Bovee

         
      • Sonny Williams
        Dave A. I have a problem with government deciding any such thing as the point in time when life begins. First, that point is invariably different for every
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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          Dave A.

          I have a problem with government deciding any such thing as the point in time when life begins. First, that point is invariably different for every fetus, as fetal development varies considerably. More importantly, such a government decision impinges upon the mother's Constitutionally-protected rights as decided in Roe v. Wade. I am personally opposed to late term abortions, but I prefer achieving this goal through social efforts that increase the chances that a woman will volutarily forgo a late term abortion.

          Sonny Williams
          www.clarencewilliams.net<http://www.clarencewilliams.net/>
          sonnyw@...<mailto:sonnyw@...>
          "Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition" - Adam Smith
          "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries" - Winston Churchill
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: VQuest95<mailto:vquest95@...>
          To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com<mailto:evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:22 PM
          Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Re:News: When does human life begin?



          Be real people. Life begins when we define it. As Nancy Bovee points our, it is a continuum from conception to birth. There is no "ultimate definition" of life comes from above. The point on that continuum is where we choose define it. Unfortunately the "we" is not universally accepted, so it is up to the government(s) to make that decision.

          While I am not knowledgeable to make that decision, I have a book in which the author proposes that we use the point where the brain is completely formed, and the fetus responds to external stimuli. Sounds reasonable to me.

          Dave A.


          <snip>
        • bowmanthebard
          ... I have a problem with it because it s never a point . It s a gray area, like the difference between being bald and not bald. Jeremy Bowman
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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            Dave wrote:

            > I have a problem with government deciding any such
            > thing as the point in time when life begins. First,
            > that point is invariably different for every fetus,

            I have a problem with it because it's never a "point". It's a gray
            area, like the difference between being bald and not bald.

            Jeremy Bowman
          • Robert Karl Stonjek
            ... RKS: The government does not make a decision as to when life or human life actually begins, they only decide what legal rights a fetus will have and when -
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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              > Dave wrote:
              >
              > > I have a problem
              with government deciding any such
              > > thing as the point in time when
              life begins.  First,
              > > that point is invariably different for
              every fetus,
              >
              > I have a problem with it because it's never a
              "point". It's a gray
              > area, like the difference between being bald and
              not bald.
              >
              > Jeremy Bowman
              >
              RKS:
              The government does not make a decision as to when life or human life actually begins, they only decide what legal rights a fetus will have and when - there is always going to be an element of arbitrariness in such decisions, like the setting of the legal age for consuming alcohol in public, for voting, for driving a car, for retiring and so on.
               
              An arbitrary point is required for the legal system to function.  It is up to advocates to make those presiding over cases where the age/criteria is close to the arbitrary point aware of the grey area and to adjust any sanctions to reflect the grey area that exists in reality.
               
              Posted by
              Robert Karl Stonjek
            • Edgar Owen
              Jeremy, Once again logic eludes the logician. There may be a slight grey area (pun intended) between being bald and not bald, but in probably 95% of the cases
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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                Jeremy,

                Once again logic eludes the logician. There may be a slight grey area (pun intended) between being bald and not bald, but in probably 95% of the cases the distinction is quite clear.

                Edgar




                On Nov 2, 2008, at 6:07 PM, bowmanthebard wrote:

                Dave wrote:

                > I have a problem with government deciding any such
                > thing as the point in time when life begins. First,
                > that point is invariably different for every fetus,

                I have a problem with it because it's never a "point". It's a gray 
                area, like the difference between being bald and not bald.

                Jeremy Bowman


              • artemistroy
                My question is as to why the government is involved at all in what is a personal and familial situation. It s taken over the role of religion, and religious
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 2, 2008
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                  My question is as to why the government is involved at all in what is
                  a personal and familial situation. It's taken over the role of
                  religion, and religious prohibitions never had much success either.
                  They're wasting their time, because when a woman does not want to
                  reproduce, she will not. In this regard history is not vague. The
                  same applies to government stamp of approval of sexual unions,
                  regardless of what they want to call them. The less impersonal
                  government involvement the better.

                  Artemis

                  --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Karl Stonjek"
                  <stonjek@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Dave wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > I have a problem with government deciding any such
                  > > > thing as the point in time when life begins. First,
                  > > > that point is invariably different for every fetus,
                  > >
                  > > I have a problem with it because it's never a "point". It's a
                  gray
                  > > area, like the difference between being bald and not bald.
                  > >
                  > > Jeremy Bowman
                  > >
                  >
                  > RKS:
                  > The government does not make a decision as to when life or human
                  life actually begins, they only decide what legal rights a fetus will
                  have and when - there is always going to be an element of
                  arbitrariness in such decisions, like the setting of the legal age
                  for consuming alcohol in public, for voting, for driving a car, for
                  retiring and so on.
                  >
                  > An arbitrary point is required for the legal system to function.
                  It is up to advocates to make those presiding over cases where the
                  age/criteria is close to the arbitrary point aware of the grey area
                  and to adjust any sanctions to reflect the grey area that exists in
                  reality.
                  >
                  > Posted by
                  > Robert Karl Stonjek
                  >
                • vquest95@aol.com
                  I don t believe the following is my post. In a message dated 11/2/2008 5:45:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sonnyw@msn.com writes: Dave A. I have a problem
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 6, 2008
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                    I don't believe the following is my post. 
                     
                    In a message dated 11/2/2008 5:45:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sonnyw@... writes:
                    Dave A.

                    I have a problem with government deciding any such thing as the point in time when life begins.  First, that point is invariably different for every fetus, as fetal development varies considerably.  More importantly, such a government decision impinges upon the mother's Constitutionally-protected rights as decided in Roe v. Wade.  I am personally opposed to late term abortions, but I prefer achieving this goal through social efforts that increase the chances that a woman will volutarily forgo a late term abortion.
                    My only post on this section was:
                     
                    "Be real people.  Life begins when we define it.  As Nancy Bovee points our, it is a continuum from conception to birth.  There is no "ultimate definition" of life comes from above.  The point on that continuum is where we choose define it.  Unfortunately the "we" is not universally accepted, so it is up to the government(s) to make that decision. "

                    " While I am not knowledgeable to make that decision, I have a book in which the author proposes that we use the point where the brain is completely formed, and the fetus responds to external stimuli.  Sounds reasonable to me."
                     

                     

                     



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