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Re: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism

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  • steve moxon
    Indeed, Mike has it comprehensively wrong in his desperate apology for the failure of Marxism. Of course the Soviet Union was modelled on Marxism, and the
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 2, 2007
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      Indeed, Mike has it comprehensively wrong in his desperate apology for the failure of Marxism. Of course the Soviet Union was modelled on Marxism, and the ownership of the means of production was in the hands of the state. This is socialism. Notwithstanding this, the aspects of Stalin -- and all the subsequent Soviet rulers -- that are better characterised as fascist are even stronger. As Marxist systems have been analysed, they necessitate levels of state control and brutal oppression against everyone that makes them fascist.

      In fact, fascism grew out of a perceived failure of some spects of Marxist thinking, and paradoxically in seeing the need for oppression to main state control of pricing actually tended to be less oppressive than Marxist state which always end up having to bring in draconian oppression.

      My labelling of the USSR as essentially fascist is accurate and not contradictory.

      I would refer Mike to the writing of Ludwig Von Mises, who lived through Nazism.
      An excellent on-line article on his work titled 'Why Nazism Was Socialism and Why Socialism Is Totalitarian' is a good place to start.

      Steve Moxon

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Irwin Silverman
      To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:06 PM
      Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism



      On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Beaken, Mike wrote:

      >...and while Stalinist Russia was a million miles away from anything
      > remotely resembling socialism, your calling it 'fascist' simply betrays
      > your own confusion.

      (From The American Heritage Dictionary)
      "fascism - A philosophy or system of government that is marked by
      stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government
      usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent
      nationalism."

      I have been an academic long enough to know that if you are
      sufficiently adroit, you can conjure a convincing argument that
      a lizard is a duck, but I don't think there is any way to make your point
      above.

      Irwin Silverman, Ph.D.
      Emeritus Professor of Psychology
      York University
      4700 Keele Street
      Toronto ON M3J 1P3
      Canada

      ph - 416-736-5115 x66213
      fax - 416-736-5814
    • bowmanthebard
      ... Fascism/Nazism is also aimed at root and branch reform -- its policy is to go back and correct things at the root -- in other words, it is a form of
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 2, 2007
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        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Beaken, Mike"
        <m.beaken@...> wrote:

        > Marxism, or socialism, or communism, is
        > revolutionary, in that if it is to succeed it has
        > to overthrow the existing order.

        Fascism/Nazism is also aimed at root and branch reform -- its policy
        is to go back and "correct" things at the root -- in other words, it
        is a form of radicalism. This is opposed to conservatism, whose aim is
        to conserve what works tolerably well, and allow cautious reform of
        what works intolerably badly.

        Jeaurat de Bertry's painting "An Allegory of the Revolution" contains
        some telling symbolism. A medallion portrait of Rousseau hangs above
        the fasces (and two feminists shake hands at the lower left).

        The fasces (i.e. sticks which individually are weak but together are
        strong) are an ideal symbol for both Fascism and Jacobinism/Marxism
        because both emphasize that the individual is nothing. The group is
        everything.

        They are alike in their contempt for the individual -- this is why
        they are both opposed to liberalism. They are alike in their agenda of
        root-and-branch reform -- this is why they are both opposed to
        conservatism. They are alike in their fanaticism -- this is why they
        are both hostile to the mundane wishes of ordinary people, and are
        unforgiving towards ordinary human failings. They are alike in that
        they are responsible for the murder of vast numbers of people. They
        are alike in that they forbid freedom of thought and expression. They
        are alike in that their political agenda substitutes "perverted
        science" for the real thing.

        Even the etymology is telling: the word 'fascism' is derived from
        'fasces' and 'Nazism' from "national socialism". These are very
        obviously forms of socialism.

        Jeremy Bowman
      • steve moxon
        Steve like Mike needs to get acquainted with the now considerable literature that shows that Marxism and fascism are very much cut from the same cloth; and
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 2, 2007
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          Steve like Mike needs to get acquainted with the now considerable literature that shows that Marxism and fascism are very much cut from the same cloth; and more than that, are effectively pretty well identical, and not just in terms of what they ended up being, but in their very genesis from Marxism.
           
          Steve Moxon
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 4:59 PM
          Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism

          On Tuesday 03 April 2007 00:06, Irwin Silverman wrote:
          > On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Beaken, Mike wrote:
          > >...and while Stalinist Russia was a million miles away from
          > > anything remotely resembling socialism, your calling it
          > > 'fascist' simply betrays your own confusion.
          >
          > (From The American Heritage Dictionary)
          > "fascism - A philosophy or system of government that is marked
          > by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized
          > government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of
          > belligerent nationalism. "

          While dictionaries are useful for many things, capturing the fine
          details of scientific, historical and political definitions is not
          one of them.

          The above definition is good enough as far as it goes, but it fails
          to distinguish between Fascism, North Korean communism, Nazism,
          Stalinism, Maoism, Falangism, medieval aristocracies, and the rule
          of the Pope over the Vatican.

          In his "Five Moral Pieces", Umberto Eco has an essay describing
          Fascism and the differences between it and other authoritarian or
          totalitarian regimes. His essay is 23 pages long, and although that
          includes some personal reminiscences of his life living under the
          Fascists, and a poem, it is easy enough to see that a detailed
          comparison of Fascism with other regimes needs more than a 31-word
          definition to make sense.

          Eco says:

          "Fascism contained no quintessence, and not even a single essence.
          It was a fuzzy form of totalitarianism. It was not a monolithic
          ideology, but rather a collage of diverse political and
          philosophical ideas, a tangle of contradictions. "

          Eco contrasts the authoritarian Fascism with the totalitarianism of
          the Nazis and Stalinists: under Hitler, there was only one Nazi
          architecture, and only one Nazi art. In contrast, in Fascist Italy
          there were Fascist artists and non-Fascist artists. Eco points out
          that this wasn't because Fascism was tolerant of dissent, as such,
          but because it was a political system of "orderly chaos" and
          organized confusion.

          Eco again:

          "The term 'Fascism' fits everything because it is possible to
          eliminate one or more aspects from a Fascist regime and it will
          always be recognizably Fascist. Remove the Imperialist dimension
          from Fascism, and you get Franco or Salazar; remove the colonialist
          dimension, and you get Balkan Fascism."

          and contrasts this with (say) Nazism: there was only one Nazism, and
          we would never dream of describing Franco's ultra-Catholic
          Falangists as Nazis, or Communists.

          Nevertheless, Eco develops a set of 14 characteristics typical of
          what he calls Ur-Fascism:

          "These characteristics cannot be regimented into a system; many are
          mutually exclusive and are typical of other forms of despotism or
          fanaticism. But all you need is one of them to be present, and a
          Fascist nebula will begin to coagulate."

          Eco's characteristics of Ur-Fascism include:

          - Cult of Tradition.

          - Rejection of modern post-Enlightenment values; a return to
          irrationalism.

          - Fear of difference.

          - Appeal to the frustrated middle classes.

          - Elitism and scorn for the weak.

          and nine others.

          > I have been an academic long enough to know that if you are
          > sufficiently adroit, you can conjure a convincing argument that
          > a lizard is a duck, but I don't think there is any way to make
          > your point above.

          In support of Mike's claim, it is quite difficult to reconcile
          Fascism's deep corporatism with Stalinist hostility to not only
          corporations but all of capitalism.

          --
          Steven.


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        • Wade Allsopp
          What I find interesting about this question is the continuing interest in the word fascism . It seems pretty obvious to me that their are both important
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 2, 2007
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            What I find interesting about this question is the continuing interest in the word "fascism".

            It seems pretty obvious to me that their are both important similarities but also important differences between
            Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Nazism, Totalitarianism etc. Steve Moxon, in common with many people likes to use "fascist" as a general label of abuse for anyone or any point of view he disagrees with and consequently is apt to focus on the similarities, others perhaps more left wing oriented than our former Lib Dem candidate are equaly keen to focus on the differences.  I wonder how much this is  to do with the fact that "Fascist" perhaps because of the similarity with the word faeces perhaps for other linguistic reasons others may be aware of rolls off the tongue wonderfully as a form of abuse.  I suspect if we hadn't had this wonderfully perjorative word, for example if people instead spoke of "Mussolinism" we wouldn't be having this debate?

            Wade
          • steve moxon
            It is the PRECISE use of the word fascist that I have been at pains to point out, Wade, as you well known. You are deliberately seriously misrepresenting.
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 3, 2007
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              It is the PRECISE use of the word 'fascist' that I have been at pains to point out, Wade, as you well known. You are deliberately seriously misrepresenting.

              Fascism is, as I have frequently posted, a derivative of or form of Marxism where it is what surrounds production rather than production itself that is owned and controlled by the state.
              'Cultural Marxism', which is the basis of 'political correctness' is therefore quintessential fascism.

              To claim that "Steve Moxon, in common with many people likes to use "fascist" as a general label of abuse for anyone or any point of view he disagrees" is a transparent disgraceful libel and Wade should be ashamed of himself. Or is he himself a 'cultural Marxist'; in which case lies are part of the game, and he would be currying favour with his cohorts.

              It is amazing that on what is supposed to be a forum for intelligent people with training in rigorous thinking, the very same sort of pejorative nonsense from the disgruntled political Left comes out as you get in regular discourse 'in the street', as it were.

              Steve Moxon

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Wade Allsopp
              To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 6:07 AM
              Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism


              What I find interesting about this question is the continuing interest in the word "fascism".

              It seems pretty obvious to me that their are both important similarities but also important differences between
              Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Nazism, Totalitarianism etc. Steve Moxon, in common with many people likes to use "fascist" as a general label of abuse for anyone or any point of view he disagrees with and consequently is apt to focus on the similarities, others perhaps more left wing oriented than our former Lib Dem candidate are equaly keen to focus on the differences. I wonder how much this is to do with the fact that "Fascist" perhaps because of the similarity with the word faeces perhaps for other linguistic reasons others may be aware of rolls off the tongue wonderfully as a form of abuse. I suspect if we hadn't had this wonderfully perjorative word, for example if people instead spoke of "Mussolinism" we wouldn't be having this debate?

              Wade





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            • Timo Jarvilehto
              If lies are part of game then Bush administration seems to be very Marxist, at least according to the argumentation of Steve Moxon. Timo Jarvilehto _____
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 3, 2007
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                If “lies are part of game” then Bush administration seems to be very Marxist, at least according to the argumentation of Steve Moxon.

                Timo Jarvilehto

                 


                From: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com [mailto: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of steve moxon
                Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:17 PM
                To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: Wade Allsopp
                Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism

                 

                It is the PRECISE use of the word 'fascist' that I have been at pains to point out, Wade, as you well known. You are deliberately seriously misrepresenting.

                Fascism is, as I have frequently posted, a derivative of or form of Marxism where it is what surrounds production rather than production itself that is owned and controlled by the state.
                'Cultural Marxism', which is the basis of 'political correctness' is therefore quintessential fascism.

                To claim that "Steve Moxon, in common with many people likes to use "fascist" as a general label of abuse for anyone or any point of view he disagrees" is a transparent disgraceful libel and Wade should be ashamed of himself. Or is he himself a 'cultural Marxist'; in which case lies are part of the game, and he would be currying favour with his cohorts.

                 

                 

              • steve moxon
                We should have no wonder why it is that sympathetic magic had such a hold over traditional societies, when supposed intellectuals can fall to depths of
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 3, 2007
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                  We should have no wonder why it is that sympathetic magic had such a hold over traditional societies, when supposed intellectuals can fall to depths of unreasoning such as this.
                   
                  So my argument that 'cultural Marxists' lie as an integral part of their project -- which it is very well attested that they do: as part of the Marxist prescription of making impossible demands on a system as a means of forcing its collapse -- means that all liars are therefore Marxist?!!!
                   
                  This gets my prize for the dumbest thing ever posted to this forum -- even beating astrology advocacy.
                  I know four-year-olds who would laugh at such monumentally abysmal logic.
                   
                  Steve Moxon
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 11:57 AM
                  Subject: RE: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism

                  If “lies are part of game” then Bush administration seems to be very Marxist, at least according to the argumentation of Steve Moxon.

                  Timo Jarvilehto


                  From: evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of steve moxon
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:17 PM
                  To: evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com
                  Cc: Wade Allsopp
                  Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism

                  It is the PRECISE use of the word 'fascist' that I have been at pains to point out, Wade, as you well known. You are deliberately seriously misrepresenting.

                  Fascism is, as I have frequently posted, a derivative of or form of Marxism where it is what surrounds production rather than production itself that is owned and controlled by the state.
                  'Cultural Marxism', which is the basis of 'political correctness' is therefore quintessential fascism.

                  To claim that "Steve Moxon, in common with many people likes to use "fascist" as a general label of abuse for anyone or any point of view he disagrees" is a transparent disgraceful libel and Wade should be ashamed of himself. Or is he himself a 'cultural Marxist'; in which case lies are part of the game, and he would be currying favour with his cohorts.


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                • Timo Jarvilehto
                  Thanks for the prize but, actually, my comment was meant as a joke…:-) Timo Järvilehto _____ From: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 3, 2007
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                    Thanks for the prize but, actually, my comment was meant as a joke…J

                    Timo Järvilehto

                     


                    From: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com [mailto: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of steve moxon
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:04 PM
                    To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism

                     

                    We should have no wonder why it is that sympathetic magic had such a hold over traditional societies, when supposed intellectuals can fall to depths of unreasoning such as this.

                     

                    So my argument that 'cultural Marxists' lie as an integral part of their project -- which it is very well attested that they do: as part of the Marxist prescription of making impossible demands on a system as a means of forcing its collapse -- means that all liars are therefore Marxist?!!!

                     

                    This gets my prize for the dumbest thing ever posted to this forum -- even beating astrology advocacy.

                    I know four-year-olds who would laugh at such monumentally abysmal logic.

                     

                    Steve Moxon

                     

                     

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 11:57 AM

                    Subject: RE: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism

                     

                    If “lies are part of game” then Bush administration seems to be very Marxist, at least according to the argumentation of Steve Moxon.

                    Timo Jarvilehto


                    From: evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of steve moxon
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:17 PM
                    To: evolutionary- psychology@ yahoogroups. com
                    Cc: Wade Allsopp
                    Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism

                    It is the PRECISE use of the word 'fascist' that I have been at pains to point out, Wade, as you well known. You are deliberately seriously misrepresenting.

                    Fascism is, as I have frequently posted, a derivative of or form of Marxism where it is what surrounds production rather than production itself that is owned and controlled by the state.
                    'Cultural Marxism', which is the basis of 'political correctness' is therefore quintessential fascism.

                    To claim that "Steve Moxon, in common with many people likes to use "fascist" as a general label of abuse for anyone or any point of view he disagrees" is a transparent disgraceful libel and Wade should be ashamed of himself. Or is he himself a 'cultural Marxist'; in which case lies are part of the game, and he would be currying favour with his cohorts.


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                  • J.K. Niemelä
                    It is quite interesting to notice how EP list every now and then turns into a political discussion group. And when the discussion about different political
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 3, 2007
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                      It is quite interesting to notice how EP list every now and then turns into a political discussion group. And when the discussion about different political systems gets heated enough, it then turns into a comedy. Yep, I'm only joking.

                      (Extra-)Cheers,
                      Jussi
                    • Joao Sousa
                      Alan Lewis and me, we already answered to Steve Moxon s misconceptions of a supposedly high similarity between Marxism and Fascism. I will not repeat all over
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 3, 2007
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                        Alan Lewis and me, we already answered to Steve Moxon's misconceptions of a
                        supposedly high similarity between Marxism and Fascism. I will not repeat
                        all over again, but our responses were devastating, as several listmembers
                        acknowledged by then. The thread was between July 27 and August 7, 2006,
                        and I will not repeat all over again. Listmembers can go to our website and
                        revisit that thread. Alan Lewis's answers were more informed than mine,
                        since he is a political science expert.



                        Steve Moxon wrote:

                        "Fascism is a revolutionary social order to overthrow the establishment
                        that is distinguished from that of the classic Marxist or socialist control
                        of the means of production in that the control is of the transactions that
                        surround production rather than the production itself.
                        The distinction is quite a fine one, and in practice both Marxist/socialist
                        and fascist states to degrees both own the means of production and control
                        what surrounds it. Indeed, nominally fascist and Marxist/socialist states
                        may be more properly described in terms of the other system (Stalinist
                        Russia certainly was fascist, and Nazi Germany was certainly socialist.)
                        Fascism is a facet of, if not the most apposite overall description of
                        political Left social systems; but as in the time-honoured manner of
                        internecine schisms, it is denied by the political Left as being of its own
                        cloth."
                      • Wade Allsopp
                        ... Wade Steve, anyone seeking to use words with PRECISION would be well advised to steer well clear of the word fascist given that it is a term which is
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 3, 2007
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                          Steve moxon  wrote:
                          It is the PRECISE use of the word 'facsist' that I have been at pains to point out, Wade, as you well know.
                          You are deliberately seriously misrepresenting.
                           
                          Fascism is, as I have frequently posted, a derivatitive or form of Marxism where it is what surrounds production rather than production itself that is owned and controlled by the state.
                          'Cultural Marxism', which is the basis of 'political correctness' is therefore quintessential fascism.
                           
                          To claim that "Steve Moxon, in common with many people likes to use "fascist" as a general label of abuse for anyone or any point of view he disagrees" is a transparent disgraceful libel and Wade should be ashamed of himelf. Or is he himself a 'cultural Marxist'; in which case lies are part of the game, and he would be currying favour with his cohorts



                          Wade

                          Steve, anyone seeking to use words with PRECISION would be well advised to steer well clear of the word "fascist" given that it is a term which is notoriously difficult to find an agreed definition for.  However, it is a word which you tend to use interchangeably with "Marxist" to describe a wide range of people who disagree with you.  Just take a look at the final paragraph quoted above which is classic Moxon diatribe.  You state that my claiming
                          that you (in common with many people) use "fascist" as a general label of abuse is a "transparent and disgraceful libel" then, in the very next sentence, having just stated that "cultural Marxism" is quintessentially fascism you suggest that I may be "a cultural Marxist" and therefore quintessentially fascist, in which case "lies are part of the game". You then combine this with an off list abusive email (a debating tactic which I for one do not find appropriate for a scientific discussion board).

                          For me fascism is a political ideology exemplified by Musolini's Italy and characterised by nationalism, authoritarianism, corporatism, militarism, collectivism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism .  Of these the only one that I have ever been associated with is anti-communism which is not a promsing start for being labelled as a cultural Marxist.

                          Wade

                        • steve moxon
                          There is no problem at all in finding an agreed definition for fascism as a poitical system. There is much abuse of the term, especially by the political Left.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 4, 2007
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                            There is no problem at all in finding an agreed definition for fascism as a political system.
                            There is much abuse of the term, especially by the political Left.
                            My use of the term is in accord with the correct definition re a political system, and I use it only in this way.
                             
                            Steve Moxon
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:34 AM
                            Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Marxism & Fascism


                            Steve moxon  wrote:
                            It is the PRECISE use of the word 'facsist' that I have been at pains to point out, Wade, as you well know.
                            You are deliberately seriously misrepresenting.
                             
                            Fascism is, as I have frequently posted, a derivatitive or form of Marxism where it is what surrounds production rather than production itself that is owned and controlled by the state.
                            'Cultural Marxism', which is the basis of 'political correctness' is therefore quintessential fascism.

                             
                            To claim that "Steve Moxon, in common with many people likes to use "fascist" as a general label of abuse for anyone or any point of view he disagrees" is a transparent disgraceful libel and Wade should be ashamed of himelf. Or is he himself a 'cultural Marxist'; in which case lies are part of the game, and he would be currying favour with his cohorts



                            Wade

                            Steve, anyone seeking to use words with PRECISION would be well advised to steer well clear of the word "fascist" given that it is a term which is notoriously difficult to find an agreed definition for.  However, it is a word which you tend to use interchangeably with "Marxist" to describe a wide range of people who disagree with you.  Just take a look at the final paragraph quoted above which is classic Moxon diatribe.  You state that my claiming
                            that you (in common with many people) use "fascist" as a general label of abuse is a "transparent and disgraceful libel" then, in the very next sentence, having just stated that "cultural Marxism" is quintessentially fascism you suggest that I may be "a cultural Marxist" and therefore quintessentially fascist, in which case "lies are part of the game". You then combine this with an off list abusive email (a debating tactic which I for one do not find appropriate for a scientific discussion board).

                            For me fascism is a political ideology exemplified by Musolini's Italy and characterised by nationalism, authoritarianism, corporatism, militarism, collectivism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism .  Of these the only one that I have ever been associated with is anti-communism which is not a promsing start for being labelled as a cultural Marxist.

                            Wade


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                          • bowmanthebard
                            ... In that case, the only differences between communism and fascism as you have characterized it are nationalism and anti-communism . German fascists were
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 4, 2007
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                              Wade Allsopp wrote:

                              > For me fascism is a political ideology
                              > exemplified by Musolini's Italy and characterised
                              > by nationalism, authoritarianism, corporatism,
                              > militarism, collectivism, totalitarianism, anti
                              >-communism, and opposition to economic and
                              > political liberalism .

                              In that case, the only differences between communism and fascism as
                              you have characterized it are "nationalism" and "anti-communism".

                              German fascists were not "nationalists" but "internationalists" in the
                              sense that they were more than happy to include people of other
                              nations in their thousand-year Reich. Their problem was people of
                              other views and other races, just as the communists' problem was
                              people of other views and other classes (than the "proletariat").

                              It is very revealing that fascist ideology includes "anti-communism",
                              just as communist ideology includes "anti-fascism". When intolerant
                              people see ideological differences, it is absolutely typical for each
                              to see the other side as wholly non-moral. They can never see it as a
                              mere moral disagreement -- it's always wholly moral thinking versus
                              wholly non-moral thinking (typically, the non-moral enemy is motivated
                              by "greed").

                              The rest of us can see that both fascists and Marxists are both driven
                              by an intensely moral vision of their teleological ideal: "the way
                              things are meant to be". For fascists, it is the "destiny" of "ein
                              Volk"; for Marxists, it is "dictatorship of the proletariat". In both
                              cases, struggle is necessary to achieve the ideal or hasten its
                              inevitable arrival. Both ideals are regarded as wholly just.

                              It is typical for ideologies to barely differ, yet to adopt
                              superficially different vocabularies. For example, "Creation Science"
                              and "Intelligent Design" are basically the same idea, even though they
                              use different words to express it. Nazism and Marxism may differ in
                              the words they prefer, but these superficial differences hide much
                              deeper affinities.

                              Civilized people do not have an idealistic vision of "the way things
                              are meant to be": they realize that all we can do is muddle through as
                              best we can. We are bound to disagree over what ought to be done, but
                              we recognize that all parties to these disagreements have
                              sincerely-held moral views, and the solution is a complicated
                              compromise rather than the simple imposition of an ideal.

                              Jeremy Bowman
                            • Julienne
                              ... Hmmm. I would suggest that Wade is correct - certainly you can hardly mention women without calling them fascist feminists , both in list posts and
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                At 10:16 AM 4/3/2007 +0100, steve moxon wrote to Wade:

                                >To claim that "Steve Moxon, in common with many people likes to use
                                >"fascist" as a general label of abuse for anyone or any point of view he
                                >disagrees" is a transparent disgraceful libel and Wade should be ashamed
                                >of himself. Or is he himself a 'cultural Marxist'; in which case lies are
                                >part of the game, and he would be currying favour with his cohorts.
                                >
                                >It is amazing that on what is supposed to be a forum for intelligent
                                >people with training in rigorous thinking, the very same sort of
                                >pejorative nonsense from the disgruntled political Left comes out as you
                                >get in regular discourse 'in the street', as it were.

                                Hmmm. I would suggest that Wade is correct - certainly you can
                                hardly mention women without calling them "fascist feminists",
                                both in list posts and private email.

                                Julienne
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