Re: Evolutionary benefit of schizophrenia?
- Greetings Jay!
If you are familar with Kinsey's 1948 work, you will
remember that 37% of males reporting having sex to
orgasm with another male after the age of 15 years,
but that is an average. Furthermore, the male
groupings reporting the most homo-sex were in two
categories: educated from grades 9 to 12, and Roman
Catholic! Well, I grew up in a place where both
applied, as a rule. I was also never condemned for
enjoying homo-sex by Roman Catholic priests (n = about
20) when I confessed these 'sins'! In fact, enjoying
homosex was not perceived as being any worse than
telling a little lie!
For others to learn about the existence of such
widespread male homosexuality in the not so distant
past in North America, I placed this book published
part of my life on the internet and added notes to
better explain the situation. It is located here and I
hope you like the title of the web page:
You may also appreciate to see how this information
fits into a narrative related to what has been
happening to male homosexuality in North America in
the past 75 years. Please read at least the first two
part of this interim paper:
1. Sexual Orientation: Binaries, Definitions, and
2. Male Homosexuality: From Common to a Rarity.
The original "invited" paper - presented at the San
Diego State University in 2000 - presented the idea
that #2 was associated/responsible for a massive
increase in suicidality for homosexually oriented
males. After it was presented, we had related
information generated from a data set that was
available at the Kinsey Institute. Sure enough! The
theory was verified, and a major study of 2,881
homosexually oriented USA males has also replicated
the basics in this respect (Paul et al, 2002). For
the suicidality results that we had generated at the
Kinsey Institute, see Table 7, here;
PS. Oh ya! That 37% is a population everage. It would
be higher for Roman Catholic / mostly educated to
grade 12 neighbourhoods. So let be conservative and
say: 50% (I think Kinsey reported it to be 60%). This
might mean 20% as an everage for male in some such
neighbourhoods, and 80% in others. I lived in the
As for you not being sure if males who have erections
and experienced orgasm/ejaculated "enjoyed" it, I
really have no comments to make at this time. :-) But
worry not about those Melanesian males and 100%
homosexual practices. In about one generation, this is
now history: killed by the effect of "The Homo Killing
West", or what has been happening in North America
over the last 75 years: heteronormativity, big time!
Or else! For the effect on Melanesia, see:
What Ever Happened to Ritualized Homosexuality? Modern
Sexual Subjects in Melanesia and Elsewhere
Annual Review of Sex Research, 2003 by Knauft, Bruce
God! I is certainly a damn good thing that at least
some anthropologists have documented these evolved
100% homosexual realities that are rapidly becoming
--- "Jay R. Feierman" <jfeierman@...> wrote:
> Pierre Tremblay: Personally, because I grew up where__________________________________________________
> the majority of male enjoyed relating sexually with
> other males, I am familiar with forms of
> homosexuality that extend well beyond what seem to
> be your highly restricted 'vision' that has its
> roots in a pathological medical construction of
> Jay R. Feierman: Where on earth, other than the
> highlands of New Guinea, do the majority of males
> enjoy relating sexually with other males? I'm not
> even sure they "enjoy" it but it is normative
> behavior. Where do you get the idea that my vision
> of homosexuality derives from me conceptualizing it
> as a medical construction? There is only one thing I
> have ever published on my views of homosexuality. I
> wrote the Foreword to Gay Priests, James G. Wolf
> (ed.), Harper & Row, 1989. In that Foreword I wrote
> in the first paragraph, "People who have been taught
> and therefore believe that it is bad to be gay will
> have great difficulty reconciling the fact that many
> priests -- whose lives are supposed to be exemplary
> and the personification of the life of Jesus Christ
> -- have an "objective disorder," a much publicized
> attribution recently bestowed upon all gay people
> through the official teaching of the Roman Catholic
> church." I have an Endnote number after the word
> "church." The Endnote says, "From the "Letter to the
> Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care
> of Homosexual Persons" dated October 1, 1986. During
> an audience granted by His Holiness, Pope John Paul
> II, this letter was approved and adopted in an
> ordinary session of the Congregation for the
> Doctrine of the Faith and ordered to be published
> over the name of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect.
> It was made public at the Vatican on October 30,
> 1986." I would point out that Joseph Cardinal
> Ratzinger is now Pope Benedict XVI. I essentially
> took on the current pope to make the argument that
> homosexuality is not an objective disorder. So
> please don't accuse me of pathologizing
> homosexuality as a medical construction.
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- Pierre Tremblay: If you are familiar with Kinsey's 1948 work, you will remember that 37% of males reporting having sex to orgasm with another male after the age of 15 years, but that is an average. Furthermore, the male groupings reporting the most homo-sex were in two categories: educated from grades 9 to 12, and Roman Catholic! Well, I grew up in a place where both applied, as a rule.Jay R. Feierman: I believe the Kinsey question had to do with any sex to orgasm with another male, so many of these 37% of males could have done it once or twice out of experimentation. There are also assortative, same-sex play groups among adolescent males, as is evidenced by the various identified and named groups in high school, such as jocks, nerds, geeks, etc. I'm sure each country has unique names for the sub-groups of high school age adolescent males. Gay adolescents tend to play with one another both figuratively and literally, so your sample may not have been representative of adolescent males in general. Your peer group would have been a sub-group of the overall high school population. I do know from my own high school days that there was a particular subgroup of males, who were friends with each other. All of them came out as gay after high school. I'm sure their sexual behavior with each other in high school was different than the group of males who were on the football team. Summed up you may have a sampling error.Pierre Tremblay: I was also never condemned for enjoying homo-sex by Roman Catholic priests (n = about 20) when I confessed these 'sins'! In fact, enjoying homosex was not perceived as being any worse than telling a little lie!Jay R. Feierman: These priests were not following the Rule Book, as the official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that homosexual sex is a Mortal sin. Also, your paper http://www.youth-suicide.com/gay-bisexual/construction/4-gay-youth-suicide-worsening.htm, which reviewed the suicide data for gay male youth, is not surprising. Young gay males, like young schizophrenic males, are peripheral males who are marginalized in industrialized societies. They would be predicted to have higher than average suicide rates, which they do. I am not convinced by anything I've seen or that you have posted that there is a higher rate of homosexuality among schizophrenics than among the general population, if homosexuality is defined as having sexual and/or romantic feelings towards other males.
- Greeting Jay!
--- "Jay R. Feierman" <jfeierman@...> wrote:
> Pierre Tremblay: If you are familiar with Kinsey's 1948 work, you will remember that 37% of*** More than a bit of heterosexism here, so it seems. I always hear this so-called
> males reporting having sex to orgasm with another male after the age of 15 years, but that is an
> average. Furthermore, the male groupings reporting the most homo-sex were in two categories:
> educated from grades 9 to 12, and Roman Catholic! Well, I grew up in a place where both applied,
> as a rule.
> Jay R. Feierman: I believe the Kinsey question had to do with any sex to orgasm with another
> male, so many of these 37% of males could have done it once or twice out of experimentation.
"experimentation" when it involves homosexuality, but not for when males have sex with females.
This is an aspect of what has been called compulsory heterosexuality where one's 'normal'
heterosexual status is redeemed if you were apparently only "experimenting". This is a bit like:
"Oh! That sex with a guy does not count because I was drunk! Or in prisons: "He only raped a man
becasue women were not available. He is normal! He is not queer!"
> There are also assortative, same-sex play groups among adolescent males, as is evidenced by the*** From where did you ever get the idea that we were gay? Or that I was describing a high school
> various identified and named groups in high school, such as jocks, nerds, geeks, etc. I'm sure
> each country has unique names for the sub-groups of high school age adolescent males. Gay
> adolescents tend to play with one another both figuratively and literally, so your sample may
> not have been representative of adolescent males in general. Your peer group would have been a
> sub-group of the overall high school population.
subgroup? I was describing a residential "geographic" area. Those also enjoying homo-sex were in
the majority: about 80% of male in the community. Those who did not relate sexually with other
males were in the small minority category.
I do know from my own high school days that
> there was a particular subgroup of males, who were friends with each other. All of them came out**** Summed up, it seems like you have been on a misinterpretation trail maybe caused by a
> as gay after high school. I'm sure their sexual behavior with each other in high school was
> different than the group of males who were on the football team. Summed up you may have a
> sampling error.
'vision' of what you think adolescent male homosexuality should be. For me, it was a major
'cultural' shock when I ventured into gay communities and discovered what existed there and was
deemed to be homosexuality. One of my first 'shock' was: "What? You have sex with guys you do NOT
know?" But, of course, the majority of the sex happening in gay communities had nothing to do with
anything "romantic" or "friendship" - in the sense of the associated male bonding that was
intimately associated with the homosexuality I had experienced. I presume here you are familiar
with cruising in parks, bathrooms, bars, etc, and the non-attachment kind oif sex that is the rule
at the baths, for example.
>*** In my culture, the RC Church was an integral part of culture and, to this date, as much as I
> Pierre Tremblay: I was also never condemned for enjoying homo-sex by Roman Catholic priests (n =
> about 20) when I confessed these 'sins'! In fact, enjoying homosex was not perceived as being
> any worse than telling a little lie!
> Jay R. Feierman: These priests were not following the Rule Book, as the official position of the
> Roman Catholic Church is that homosexual sex is a Mortal sin.
could never say "I am not French Canadian!" I also could not say "I am not RC!" for similar
reasons. Anyway, she seem to be quite unfamiliar with what actually was practised in RC churches
that was also heavily influence by culture. For example, the RC in Latin America has a different
'flavour' than the RC in my culture, but there are similarities. Given what I read about the
history of homosexuality in Mexico (super common), for example, I would guess that priest there
were muvh like the priest in my very large RC parish - where we always had three priests, and
three more would join them on Saturdays to hear confessions. I was intimately associated with the
church and was the youngest to ever become an altar boy. My mother has done a great job teaching
me latin starting in grade 2 and she also thought me to knit - that was a male lumberjack activity
in my culture. They all knew how to knit.
Also, your paper
> http://www.youth-suicide.com/gay-bisexual/construction/4-gay-youth-suicide-worsening.htm, which*** that was a part of my culture shock when I ventured in gay comunities: what these gay
> reviewed the suicide data for gay male youth, is not surprising. Young gay males, like young
> schizophrenic males, are peripheral males who are marginalized in industrialized societies.
identified males experienced was socially inflicted! No such abuse existed in my community on the
basis of knowing or suspecting that a guy enjoyed or would enjoy having sex with a male. Even in
the greater community - and I went to an elementary/junior high school that had about 900
students, I only remember one male who was more like a "sissy" - but no one ever thought ill of
> would be predicted to have higher than average suicide rates, which they do.*** but interesting that the adolescent male attempted suicide incidence increased from about 2%
around 1930 to what it is now: about 40% for GLB adolescents in Massachusetts in 2003, and that
40% is for having attempted suicide in the past year!
I am not convinced
> by anything I've seen or that you have posted that there is a higher rate of homosexuality among*** Kind of sad that you are restricting the concept of "homosexuality" to associations with
> schizophrenics than among the general population, if homosexuality is defined as having sexual
> and/or romantic feelings towards other males.
"romantic feeling".... that is even at odds with the majority of homosex happening in gay
communities. No such emotions - romance - were associated with those I grew up with... but there
was male bonding and the feeling that we were equals, as opposed to the traditional inferior
status men have traditionally inflicted on the women they also desired to sexually penetrate. Come
to think of it, heterosexual males most often have NOT desired to have sex with females for
"romantic" reasons, and especially NOT for friendship/bonding reasons, either. I presume you would
be quite familar with the history of female prostitution and the non-love/romance motivations
associated with the males who used female prostitutes. Not all that long ago, all little western
towns had one or more whorehouse for all those heterosexual males who apparently loved women... as
proven by the fact that they were using women in such non-loving - 'you are just a non-person
piece of meat' - ways. :-) But then women became unhappy with all this and, god forbid, they did
manage to become "persons" legally in Canada around 1929. By the early 1980, married heterosexual
males also lost their self-given legal right to rape their wives. Employers also lost their right
to pay women less than men for work of equal value... etc. that are all, without, indicators that
the ruling heterosexual males have historically loved women!
PS. Where did you ever get the idea that one's sexual orientation should be based on "romantic"
anything? There are a hell of a lot of heterosexual males who masturbate to fantasies of raping
women that I would say is intimately related to hatred, and a good number who have actually raped
women. Does that mean that these men would not have a sexual orientation, or would not be deemed
heterosexual, because their sexuality if not related to romantic feelings for women? The social
construction of heterosexual men as individuals who love women is quite recent, but the historical
evidence indicates that the opposite has been the rule, as Julienne might agree with fro reasons
that she has given in a previous post.
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I would say that Christianity has a history of being quite "successful" and even "fanatical": e.g.
the Crusades, the treatment of American Aboriginal people, including the use of residential
schools until very recently... that were used in an attempt to wipe out the cutures/religions of
the infidels! But, before that, the expression "The only good Injun is a dead Injun!" was quite
common and even put into practice! Residential schools were a more modern version of the same
Also fanatical were the highly abusive laws against homosexual male sex activities that were
exported to many countries by the British durng the days of the infamous "empire"... with the hope
that others would become as abusive and fanatical as we were!
The French, however, were not so fanatically obsessed about homosexuality and the French
Revolution put an end to anti-homosexuality sodomy laws... with homosexual activity only again
becoming criminalized in France when the Nazis invaded France in WW-2.
Come to think of it, in the above respect, the American and the British were (have been) very much
like the Nazis... that continued into the 60s in Britain, and into the 21rst century in the USA
when the sodomy laws were 'killed' by the Supreme Court.
Interestingly, some of the most fanatical abusers of homosexually oriented people in the UK,
Australia, and North America have been those in the so-called "helping professions," and
especially the 'professionals' called "psychiatrists" who certainly operated on the Nazi-like
principle that homosexual males should NOT exist!
It should be noted that the infamous often noted 'homosexual paradox' in Evolutionary Psychology -
as based on the current level of 'understanding' manifested by these 'experts' (having at least
one PhD) - is also that "homosexually oriented males should NOT exist"! But homosexually oriented
males do exist... and this reality generally means that what is believed as related to evolution -
that creates the so-called 'homosexual paradox' - is likely NOT "understanding", and is likely its
My feeling is that the 'experts' have been completely wrong about what is assumed to be male
heterosexuality... and even female heterosexuality. And that all of this has been happening in
cultures that have been fanatically enforcing heteronormativity or what some have called
"compulsory heterosexuality"... where 'science' has been used to support the beliefs/desires of
the fanatical ones... who, so it seems, have also been at 'war' against those defined to be
schizophrenic as Dr. Feierman appears to have been hinting at...
--- Ligesh <myself@...> wrote:
> This is the age old paradox very neatly solved by Moore's law. That something occurs in nature
> does not mean that it is moral, or that it should be practiced. Why is Islam so successful?
> Because it is perfectly tuned to the male psyche--the desire to kill other people, and that is
> also why Muslims are so fanatical too. Islam tells people to do what the love to do best--kill
> others. Please note that it is only KILLING that is natural, murder is still abhorrent in all
> This is very clearly demonstrated in the Bible in the contradiction between "Thou shalt not
> Kill", with "Kill all heathen".
- Ligesh: You haven't addressed the two points:
a) Artists display behaviour that can be classified as schizophrenia-like. Artists are also a group who have above average fitness. This is an empirical finding, and I had posted the url to this particular study.
b) Voices in the head--another schizophrenia-like symptom--can be highly adaptive. These people become the prophets, which is actually an high fitness position in the society.
So how do you address the above two issues?Jay R. Feierman: I don't believe that "artists display behavior that can be classified as schizophrenic-like." I don't count answering psychological test questions as meaningful evidence. Artists are creative and people with schizophrenia are no more creative than individuals in the general population. Artists see symbolism in reality but symbolism is reality for persons with Schizophrenia. Artists are logical and individuals with Schizophrenia are not. When you use a term, such as "schizophrenia-like," it is not defined and can be interpreted very broadly. I know many artists and many persons with Schizophrenia and two very talented schizophrenic artists. However, my opinion is that artistic ability and Schizophrenia-like symptoms are not inter-related any more than by chance.For you to say that voices in the head can be highly adaptive only means to me that you do not have much experience with persons with Schizophrenia. I'm not sure that people who say that they are prophets hear voices. If they do, some may be in Manic Episodes and transiently hear voices, but voices in mania are very rare. Do you really think that Moses heard voices when he wrote the ten commandments or the Pople hears voices when he says that God talks to him? I've spoken to hundreds if not thousands of persons who have Schizophrenia about their voices. The voices are very bothersome, like a radio in their head commenting on their behavior and their thoughts and at times telling them what to do. You need to get out of your armchair and interact with some people with schizophrenia. If you did, you would not say what you are saying.