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Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

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  • hibbsa
    Hi Stan, I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem. It is of course, a real possibility all the same. I ve
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 3, 2013
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      Hi Stan,

      I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem.  It is of course, a real possibility all the same.

      I've actually seen chimps doing it. Not very scientific of course. A google of 'chimps wading' gets a fairly extensive...though I don't know for quality..response. At the least, wading goes on, on a fairly regular basis.

      This is Attenborough describing the wading theory, or a version of it. It's only a couple of minutes...includes video of contempory chimps wading to help make the point. Some of the chimps are mums carrying their babies...which has a deeply ingrained look.

      http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6288724SdYwPZTP

       

      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
      >
      > Responses below.
      >
      > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa hibbsa@... wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
      > > that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
      > > how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.
      > >
      > I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward
      > morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from
      > the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal
      > stance.
      >
      > >
      > > Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
      > > maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
      > > probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
      > > efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
      > > them.
      > >
      > I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few
      > individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape
      > typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I
      > know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and
      > regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.
      >
      > Stan
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
      > > >
      > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
      > > effect
      > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
      > > evolution
      > > > of that species."
      > > >
      > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
      > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
      > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
      > > >
      > > > Stan
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
      > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
      > Institute for Intelligent Systems
      > FedEx Institute of Technology
      > The University of Memphis
      > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
      > 901-678-1341
      > personal >
      >
      > lab
      >

    • Stan Franklin
      Thanks for the pointer to the video. I m still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 4, 2013
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        Thanks for the pointer to the video.

        I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water, as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water" yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid water."

        Stan


        On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 8:16 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa@...> wrote:
         

        Hi Stan,

        I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem.  It is of course, a real possibility all the same.

        I've actually seen chimps doing it. Not very scientific of course. A google of 'chimps wading' gets a fairly extensive...though I don't know for quality..response. At the least, wading goes on, on a fairly regular basis.

        This is Attenborough describing the wading theory, or a version of it. It's only a couple of minutes...includes video of contempory chimps wading to help make the point. Some of the chimps are mums carrying their babies...which has a deeply ingrained look.

        http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6288724SdYwPZTP

         

        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
        >
        > Responses below.
        >
        > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa hibbsa@... wrote:
        >
        > > **

        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
        > > that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
        > > how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.
        > >
        > I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward
        > morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from
        > the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal
        > stance.
        >
        > >
        > > Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
        > > maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
        > > probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
        > > efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
        > > them.
        > >
        > I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few
        > individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape
        > typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I
        > know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and
        > regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.
        >
        > Stan
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
        > > >
        > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
        > > effect
        > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
        > > evolution
        > > > of that species."
        > > >
        > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
        > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
        > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
        > > >
        > > > Stan
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
        > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
        > Institute for Intelligent Systems
        > FedEx Institute of Technology
        > The University of Memphis
        > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
        > 901-678-1341
        > personal >
        >
        > lab
        >




        --
        Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
        W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
        Institute for Intelligent Systems        
        FedEx Institute of Technology              
        The University of Memphis
        Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
        901-678-1341
        personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
        lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

      • james kohl
        While we re expanding on theory and story-telling, it may be important to note the location of the axillary scent organ, which is fully exposed with arms
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 4, 2013
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          While we're expanding on theory and story-telling, it may be important to note the location of the axillary scent organ, which is fully exposed with arms raised -- as in the video. In my model, this would be yet another example of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled morphogenesis, which extends to the adaptive evolution of breast development in human females via epigenetic effects as shown in data from Kamberov et al (2013) and Grossman et al (2013).

           
          James V. Kohl
          Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
          Independent researcher
          Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
          Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


          From: hibbsa <hibbsa@...>
          To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 9:16 PM
          Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

           
          Hi Stan,
          I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem.  It is of course, a real possibility all the same.
          I've actually seen chimps doing it. Not very scientific of course. A google of 'chimps wading' gets a fairly extensive...though I don't know for quality..response. At the least, wading goes on, on a fairly regular basis.
          This is Attenborough describing the wading theory, or a version of it. It's only a couple of minutes...includes video of contempory chimps wading to help make the point. Some of the chimps are mums carrying their babies...which has a deeply ingrained look.
           
          --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
          >
          > Responses below.
          >
          > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa hibbsa@... wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
          > > that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
          > > how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.
          > >
          > I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward
          > morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from
          > the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal
          > stance.
          >
          > >
          > > Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
          > > maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
          > > probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
          > > efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
          > > them.
          > >
          > I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few
          > individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape
          > typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I
          > know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and
          > regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.
          >
          > Stan
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
          > > >
          > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
          > > effect
          > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
          > > evolution
          > > > of that species."
          > > >
          > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
          > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
          > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
          > > >
          > > > Stan
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
          > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
          > Institute for Intelligent Systems
          > FedEx Institute of Technology
          > The University of Memphis
          > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
          > 901-678-1341
          > personal >
          >
          > lab
          >


        • hibbsa
          Hi Stan, I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 5, 2013
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            Hi Stan,

            I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.

            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
            >
            > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
            > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
            > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
            > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
            > water."
            >
            > Stan
            >
            >
            <snip>
          • james kohl
            Do you think that a mutation or accumulation of mutations caused apes to begin wading and adaptively evolve into humans? Is there a model for that?   James V.
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 5, 2013
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              Do you think that a mutation or accumulation of mutations caused apes to begin wading and adaptively evolve into humans? Is there a model for that?

               
              James V. Kohl
              Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
              Independent researcher
              Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
              Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


              From: hibbsa <hibbsa@...>
              To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 6:39 AM
              Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

               
              Hi Stan,

              I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.

              --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
              >
              > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
              > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
              > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
              > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
              > water."
              >
              > Stan
              >
              >
              <snip>


            • hibbsa
              ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 5, 2013
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                ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.

                We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.

                --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Stan,
                >
                > I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.
                >
                > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                > >
                > > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                > > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                > > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                > > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                > > water."
                > >
                > > Stan
                > >
                > >
                > <snip>
                >
              • BramH
                The fact that there are primal fears involved probably means that crossing a river is a critical moment; a time when differential survival takes place. So,
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 6, 2013
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                  The fact that there are primal fears involved probably means that crossing a river is a critical moment; a time when differential survival takes place.

                  So, even if wading was a rare event, if the survival of individuals depended on it, it may still have played a mayor role in evolution.

                  This means that although we may have aquatic adpations (adaptations for wading), this doesn't mean we were aquatic apes.

                  --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.
                  >
                  > We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.
                  >
                  > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@> wrote:

                  <snip>
                • hibbsa
                  Apes aren t keen on water, but it doesn t take much for an ape to calculate it is worth getting wet for something. This is just a guess, mostly to illustrate
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 6, 2013
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                    Apes aren't keen on water, but it doesn't take much for an ape to calculate it is worth getting wet for something. This is just a guess, mostly to illustrate where I personally think the balance sits....but I would be surprised if chimps would choose a 1/4 mile trek over a short wade up to their chest for a shortcut


                    --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "BramH" <br.hessels@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The fact that there are primal fears involved probably means that crossing a river is a critical moment; a time when differential survival takes place.
                    >
                    > So, even if wading was a rare event, if the survival of individuals depended on it, it may still have played a mayor role in evolution.
                    >
                    > This means that although we may have aquatic adpations (adaptations for wading), this doesn't mean we were aquatic apes.
                    >
                    > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.
                    > >
                    > > We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.
                    > >
                    > > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@> wrote:
                    >
                    > <snip>
                    >
                  • Stan Franklin
                    Yes, I agree, as long as swimming isn t required. Chimps and Gorillas live entirely North of the Congo River, while Bonobos live entirely South. As far as I
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 6, 2013
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                      Yes, I agree, as long as swimming isn't required. Chimps and Gorillas live entirely North of the Congo River, while Bonobos live entirely South. As far as I now none of our ancestors were restricted to one side of a river.


                      On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 1:34 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                       

                      ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.

                      We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.


                      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Stan,
                      >
                      > I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.
                      >
                      > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                      > >
                      > > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                      > > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                      > > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                      > > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                      > > water."
                      > >
                      > > Stan
                      > >
                      > >
                      > <snip>
                      >




                      --
                      Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
                      W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
                      Institute for Intelligent Systems        
                      FedEx Institute of Technology              
                      The University of Memphis
                      Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
                      901-678-1341
                      personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
                      lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

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