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Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

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  • BramH
    I agree with most you re saying. It is important to acknowledge that behaviour can be a prime mover with regard to evolution by natural selection. This of
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
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      I agree with most you're saying. It is important to acknowledge that behaviour can be a prime mover with regard to evolution by natural selection. This of course is especially important in human evolution where culture and human free will can determine the course of evolution.

      Concerning the Baldwin effect, i believe purely culturally determined behaviours, such as spearthrowing, have immediate consequences for natural selection; they immediately change the adaptive landscape. Pick up a spear and immediately there will be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing abilities.

      I thought the Baldwin effect was a more convoluted process, involving several intermediate steps (don't know all the fine details though).

      Since humans have larger degree of freedom with regard to behaviour, human evolution is in some regards a unique process, It may well have involved several surprising steps (such as wading).

       


      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
      >
      > There are a host of slightly different definitions of the Baldwin effect.
      > The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can
      > result from a change of not "the organism itself" but *the behavior of the
      > organism itself*. Elephants learn to graze (a change in the behavior of the
      > organism) giving a fitness advantage to certain shapes of molars. Or humans
      > learn to wade in oceans, lakes, and rivers for food, giving a fitness
      > advantage to morphological changes that support bipedalism. Perhaps you
      > want to call these examples of social learning.
      >
      > Stan
      >
      > On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, BramH br.hessels@... wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > This is not stricktly speaking the Baldwin effect which involves social
      > > learning.
      > >
      > > What the authors try to emphasise is that a change in natural selection
      > > does not necessarily have to start with a change in the environment
      > > (this is a quite common assumption). It can also result from a change of
      > > the organism itself.
      > >
      > > The bottomline is that what constitutes a selection presure is a product
      > > of how an organism relates to its environment:
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
      > > >
      > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
      > > effect
      > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
      > > evolution
      > > > of that species."
      > > >
      > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
      > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
      > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
      > > >
      > > > Stan
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --
      > > > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
      > > > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
      > > > Institute for Intelligent Systems
      > > > FedEx Institute of Technology
      > > > The University of Memphis
      > > > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
      > > > 901-678-1341
      > > > personal >
      > > >
      > > > lab
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
      > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
      > Institute for Intelligent Systems
      > FedEx Institute of Technology
      > The University of Memphis
      > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
      > 901-678-1341
      > personal >
      >
      > lab
      >

    • james kohl
      From: BramH Pick up a spear and immediately there will be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
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        From: BramH <br.hessels@...> "Pick up a spear and immediately there will be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing abilities."

        JK: Is there a model for that? I'm having difficulty imagining what you represent as cause and effect. How does picking up a spear cause the adaptive evolution of de novo genes for throwing and natural selection for throwing abilities? Is Natural Selection due to predators that eat those who cannot throw the spear better than their conspecifics as in the story told about the peppered moths?

         
        James V. Kohl
        Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
        Independent researcher
        Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
        Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


        From: BramH <br.hessels@...>
        To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 5:17 AM
        Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

         
        I agree with most you're saying. It is important to acknowledge that behaviour can be a prime mover with regard to evolution by natural selection. This of course is especially important in human evolution where culture and human free will can determine the course of evolution.
        Concerning the Baldwin effect, i believe purely culturally determined behaviours, such as spearthrowing, have immediate consequences for natural selection; they immediately change the adaptive landscape. Pick up a spear and immediately there will be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing abilities.
        I thought the Baldwin effect was a more convoluted process, involving several intermediate steps (don't know all the fine details though).
        Since humans have larger degree of freedom with regard to behaviour, human evolution is in some regards a unique process, It may well have involved several surprising steps (such as wading).
         

        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
        >
        > There are a host of slightly different definitions of the Baldwin effect.
        > The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can
        > result from a change of not "the organism itself" but *the behavior of the
        > organism itself*. Elephants learn to graze (a change in the behavior of the
        > organism) giving a fitness advantage to certain shapes of molars. Or humans
        > learn to wade in oceans, lakes, and rivers for food, giving a fitness
        > advantage to morphological changes that support bipedalism. Perhaps you
        > want to call these examples of social learning.
        >
        > Stan
        >
        > On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, BramH br.hessels@... wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > This is not stricktly speaking the Baldwin effect which involves social
        > > learning.
        > >
        > > What the authors try to emphasise is that a change in natural selection
        > > does not necessarily have to start with a change in the environment
        > > (this is a quite common assumption). It can also result from a change of
        > > the organism itself.
        > >
        > > The bottomline is that what constitutes a selection presure is a product
        > > of how an organism relates to its environment:
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
        > > >
        > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
        > > effect
        > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
        > > evolution
        > > > of that species."
        > > >
        > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
        > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
        > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
        > > >
        > > > Stan
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --
        > > > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
        > > > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
        > > > Institute for Intelligent Systems
        > > > FedEx Institute of Technology
        > > > The University of Memphis
        > > > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
        > > > 901-678-1341
        > > > personal >
        > > >
        > > > lab
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
        > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
        > Institute for Intelligent Systems
        > FedEx Institute of Technology
        > The University of Memphis
        > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
        > 901-678-1341
        > personal >
        >
        > lab
        >


      • BramH
        Humans only initiate behaviours that their genes allow them to do. If you can throw a spear it means you have the genetic constitution that allows you to throw
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
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          Humans only initiate behaviours that their genes allow them to do. If
          you can throw a spear it means you have the genetic constitution that
          allows you to throw a spear, even if you had never thrown a spear
          before. So the genes initially involved in spear throwing are not de
          novo, the way they are used is de novo. This sets up a new cause: the
          differential survival and reproduction of individuals due to spear
          throwing: the natural selection of throwing.

          The assumption of this model is that genetic variation is ubiquitous;
          different alleles are always present (and are supplemented by mutation).
          The main difference with your model is that in standard Darwinian theory
          evolutionary change is the sorting of genetic variants, it is not the
          event of mutation itself.

          --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, james kohl wrote:
          >
          > From: BramH br.hessels@... "Pick up a spear and immediately there will
          be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing
          abilities."
          >
          > JK: Is there a model for that? I'm having difficulty imagining what
          you represent as cause and effect. How does picking up a spear cause the
          adaptive evolution of de novo genes for throwing and natural selection
          for throwing abilities? Is Natural Selection due to predators that eat
          those who cannot throw the spear better than their conspecifics as in
          the story told about the peppered moths?
          >
          >
          > Â
          > James V. Kohl
          > Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
          > Independent researcher
          > Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive
          evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
          > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic
          influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors.
          Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          <Snip>
        • james kohl
          Pheromone-Induced Morphogenesis Improves Osmoadaptation Capacity by Activating the HOG MAPK Pathway Excerpt: Our work shows how a differentiation signal can
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
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            Excerpt: "Our work shows how a differentiation signal can recruit a second, unrelated sensory pathway to fine-tune yeast response in a complex environment."

            See also:



            Stan wrote: "The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can result from a change of not "the organism itself" but the behavior of the organism itself.

            JK: In my opinion, this is simply a statement indicating that any explanation will do that seems to fit the story line. But the information only fits the story line if the opinion ignores biological facts.
             
            Examples of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled morphogenesis exist across species from microbes to man. Why do some people believe in whatever they can make up?


            James V. Kohl
            Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
            Independent researcher
            Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
            Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


            From: Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@...>
            To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:00 AM
            Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

             
            There are a host of slightly different definitions of the Baldwin effect. The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can result from a change of not "the organism itself" but the behavior of the organism itself. Elephants learn to graze (a change in the behavior of the organism) giving a fitness advantage to certain shapes of molars. Or humans learn to wade in oceans, lakes, and rivers for food, giving a fitness advantage to morphological changes that support bipedalism. Perhaps you want to call these examples of social learning.

            Stan

            On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, BramH <br.hessels@...> wrote:
             
            This is not stricktly speaking the Baldwin effect which involves social
            learning.

            What the authors try to emphasise is that a change in natural selection
            does not necessarily have to start with a change in the environment
            (this is a quite common assumption). It can also result from a change of
            the organism itself.

            The bottomline is that what constitutes a selection presure is a product
            of how an organism relates to its environment:


            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
            >
            > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
            effect
            > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
            evolution
            > of that species."
            >
            > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
            > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
            > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
            >
            > Stan
            >
            >
            <Snip>

            >
            >
            > --
            > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
            > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
            > Institute for Intelligent Systems
            > FedEx Institute of Technology
            > The University of Memphis
            > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
            > 901-678-1341
            > personal >
            >
            > lab
            >




            --
            Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
            W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
            Institute for Intelligent Systems        
            FedEx Institute of Technology              
            The University of Memphis
            Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
            901-678-1341
            personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
            lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>



          • james kohl
            Your continued misrepresentations of what I have detailed in my model represent the most unintelligent approach to discussion that I can imagine. Why not tell
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
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              Your continued misrepresentations of what I have detailed in my model represent the most unintelligent approach to discussion that I can imagine. Why not tell others how mutations cause adaptive evolution, if that's how you think you evolved? De novo gene creation is a fact! What you are telling others about de novo uses for genes is ridiculous. Is there a model for that?
               
              James V. Kohl
              Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
              Independent researcher
              Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
              Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


              From: BramH <br.hessels@...>
              To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 7:54 AM
              Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

               
              Humans only initiate behaviours that their genes allow them to do. If
              you can throw a spear it means you have the genetic constitution that
              allows you to throw a spear, even if you had never thrown a spear
              before. So the genes initially involved in spear throwing are not de
              novo, the way they are used is de novo. This sets up a new cause: the
              differential survival and reproduction of individuals due to spear
              throwing: the natural selection of throwing.

              The assumption of this model is that genetic variation is ubiquitous;
              different alleles are always present (and are supplemented by mutation).
              The main difference with your model is that in standard Darwinian theory
              evolutionary change is the sorting of genetic variants, it is not the
              event of mutation itself.

              --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, james kohl wrote:
              >
              > From: BramH br.hessels@... "Pick up a spear and immediately there will
              be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing
              abilities."
              >
              > JK: Is there a model for that? I'm having difficulty imagining what
              you represent as cause and effect. How does picking up a spear cause the
              adaptive evolution of de novo genes for throwing and natural selection
              for throwing abilities? Is Natural Selection due to predators that eat
              those who cannot throw the spear better than their conspecifics as in
              the story told about the peppered moths?
              >
              >
              > Â
              > James V. Kohl
              > Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
              > Independent researcher
              > Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive
              evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
              > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic
              influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors.
              Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              <Snip>


            • Don Zimmerman
              ... DWZ: That has been true right from the beginning of life on the planet. The metabolic processes of early organisms changed the composition of the
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
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                --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "BramH" <br.hessels@...> wrote:

                > It is important to acknowledge that
                > behaviour can be a prime mover with regard to evolution by natural
                > selection. This of course is especially important in human evolution
                > where culture and human free will can determine the course of evolution.


                DWZ:
                That has been true right from the beginning of life on the planet. The metabolic processes of early organisms changed the composition of the atmosphere, as well as that of the oceans, so that later organisms had to adapt to a different environment. As populations of organisms changed as a result of natural selection, so also there constantly arose newer environments that determined further natural selection.

                Today, in the case of human beings, alteration of our surroundings by behavior, society, and technology surely has become more important than anything else in shaping the future of evolution. All life coming into existence in times to come faces an environment unlike anything before, but also one that is changing more rapidly than any before.

                Best regards,

                Donald W. Zimmerman
                Vancouver, BC, Canada
                dwzimm@...
                http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
              • hibbsa
                Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder how much
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 2, 2013
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                  Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                  that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                  how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.

                  Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                  maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                  probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                  efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                  them.

                  psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                  >
                  > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                  effect
                  > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                  evolution
                  > of that species."
                  >
                  > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                  > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                  > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                  >
                  > Stan
                  >
                  >
                  <Snip>
                • james kohl
                  Does anyone else find it somewhat ridiculous that discussion has turned to morphogenesis in primates at a time when morphogenesis across all species from
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 3, 2013
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                    Does anyone else find it somewhat ridiculous that discussion has turned to morphogenesis in primates at a time when morphogenesis across all species from microbes to man has been modeled in the context of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution? See for example: Insect pheromone in elephants and  Pheromone-Induced Morphogenesis Improves Osmoadaptation Capacity by Activating the HOG MAPK Pathway. If, in theory, "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                    evolution of that species." -- how on earth can these two facts be ignored:  1) behavior is nutrient-dependent, and 2) reproduction is controlled by species-specific pheromones. 

                    For comparison, is there a model in which mutations theoretically caused our morphological adaptations for bipedalism (or any other morphological adaptation)? 

                    Did we evolve from aquatic apes? Elaine Morgan on TED.com | TED ...

                    blog.ted.com/2009/07/31/did_we_evolve_f/
                    Aug 5, 2010
                    Elaine Morgan is a tenacious proponent of the aquatic ape hypothesis: the idea that humans evolved from ...



                     
                    James V. Kohl
                    Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                    Independent researcher
                    Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                    Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


                    From: hibbsa <hibbsa@...>
                    To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:40 AM
                    Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

                     
                    Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                    that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                    how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.

                    Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                    maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                    probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                    efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                    them.

                    psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                    >
                    > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                    effect
                    > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                    evolution
                    > of that species."
                    >
                    > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                    > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                    > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                    >
                    > Stan
                    >
                    >
                    <Snip>


                  • Stan Franklin
                    Responses below. ... I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy,
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 3, 2013
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                      Responses below.

                      On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                       

                      Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                      that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                      how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.

                      I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal stance.


                      Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                      maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                      probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                      efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                      them.

                      I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.

                      Stan


                      psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                      >
                      > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                      effect
                      > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                      evolution
                      > of that species."
                      >
                      > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                      > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                      > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                      >
                      > Stan
                      >
                      >
                      <Snip>




                      --
                      Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
                      W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
                      Institute for Intelligent Systems        
                      FedEx Institute of Technology              
                      The University of Memphis
                      Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
                      901-678-1341
                      personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
                      lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

                    • hibbsa
                      Hi Stan, I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem. It is of course, a real possibility all the same. I ve
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 3, 2013
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                        Hi Stan,

                        I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem.  It is of course, a real possibility all the same.

                        I've actually seen chimps doing it. Not very scientific of course. A google of 'chimps wading' gets a fairly extensive...though I don't know for quality..response. At the least, wading goes on, on a fairly regular basis.

                        This is Attenborough describing the wading theory, or a version of it. It's only a couple of minutes...includes video of contempory chimps wading to help make the point. Some of the chimps are mums carrying their babies...which has a deeply ingrained look.

                        http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6288724SdYwPZTP

                         

                        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                        >
                        > Responses below.
                        >
                        > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa hibbsa@... wrote:
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                        > > that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                        > > how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.
                        > >
                        > I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward
                        > morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from
                        > the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal
                        > stance.
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                        > > maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                        > > probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                        > > efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                        > > them.
                        > >
                        > I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few
                        > individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape
                        > typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I
                        > know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and
                        > regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.
                        >
                        > Stan
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                        > > effect
                        > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                        > > evolution
                        > > > of that species."
                        > > >
                        > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                        > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                        > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                        > > >
                        > > > Stan
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                        > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                        > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                        > FedEx Institute of Technology
                        > The University of Memphis
                        > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                        > 901-678-1341
                        > personal >
                        >
                        > lab
                        >

                      • Stan Franklin
                        Thanks for the pointer to the video. I m still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 4, 2013
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                          Thanks for the pointer to the video.

                          I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water, as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water" yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid water."

                          Stan


                          On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 8:16 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                           

                          Hi Stan,

                          I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem.  It is of course, a real possibility all the same.

                          I've actually seen chimps doing it. Not very scientific of course. A google of 'chimps wading' gets a fairly extensive...though I don't know for quality..response. At the least, wading goes on, on a fairly regular basis.

                          This is Attenborough describing the wading theory, or a version of it. It's only a couple of minutes...includes video of contempory chimps wading to help make the point. Some of the chimps are mums carrying their babies...which has a deeply ingrained look.

                          http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6288724SdYwPZTP

                           

                          --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                          >
                          > Responses below.
                          >
                          > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa hibbsa@... wrote:
                          >
                          > > **

                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                          > > that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                          > > how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.
                          > >
                          > I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward
                          > morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from
                          > the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal
                          > stance.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                          > > maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                          > > probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                          > > efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                          > > them.
                          > >
                          > I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few
                          > individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape
                          > typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I
                          > know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and
                          > regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.
                          >
                          > Stan
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                          > > effect
                          > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                          > > evolution
                          > > > of that species."
                          > > >
                          > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                          > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                          > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                          > > >
                          > > > Stan
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                          > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                          > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                          > FedEx Institute of Technology
                          > The University of Memphis
                          > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                          > 901-678-1341
                          > personal >
                          >
                          > lab
                          >




                          --
                          Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
                          W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
                          Institute for Intelligent Systems        
                          FedEx Institute of Technology              
                          The University of Memphis
                          Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
                          901-678-1341
                          personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
                          lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

                        • james kohl
                          While we re expanding on theory and story-telling, it may be important to note the location of the axillary scent organ, which is fully exposed with arms
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 4, 2013
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                            While we're expanding on theory and story-telling, it may be important to note the location of the axillary scent organ, which is fully exposed with arms raised -- as in the video. In my model, this would be yet another example of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled morphogenesis, which extends to the adaptive evolution of breast development in human females via epigenetic effects as shown in data from Kamberov et al (2013) and Grossman et al (2013).

                             
                            James V. Kohl
                            Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                            Independent researcher
                            Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                            Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


                            From: hibbsa <hibbsa@...>
                            To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 9:16 PM
                            Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

                             
                            Hi Stan,
                            I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem.  It is of course, a real possibility all the same.
                            I've actually seen chimps doing it. Not very scientific of course. A google of 'chimps wading' gets a fairly extensive...though I don't know for quality..response. At the least, wading goes on, on a fairly regular basis.
                            This is Attenborough describing the wading theory, or a version of it. It's only a couple of minutes...includes video of contempory chimps wading to help make the point. Some of the chimps are mums carrying their babies...which has a deeply ingrained look.
                             
                            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                            >
                            > Responses below.
                            >
                            > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa hibbsa@... wrote:
                            >
                            > > **
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                            > > that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                            > > how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.
                            > >
                            > I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward
                            > morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from
                            > the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal
                            > stance.
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                            > > maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                            > > probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                            > > efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                            > > them.
                            > >
                            > I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few
                            > individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape
                            > typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I
                            > know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and
                            > regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.
                            >
                            > Stan
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                            > > effect
                            > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                            > > evolution
                            > > > of that species."
                            > > >
                            > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                            > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                            > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                            > > >
                            > > > Stan
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                            > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                            > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                            > FedEx Institute of Technology
                            > The University of Memphis
                            > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                            > 901-678-1341
                            > personal >
                            >
                            > lab
                            >


                          • hibbsa
                            Hi Stan, I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 5, 2013
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                              Hi Stan,

                              I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.

                              --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                              >
                              > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                              > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                              > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                              > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                              > water."
                              >
                              > Stan
                              >
                              >
                              <snip>
                            • james kohl
                              Do you think that a mutation or accumulation of mutations caused apes to begin wading and adaptively evolve into humans? Is there a model for that?   James V.
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 5, 2013
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                                Do you think that a mutation or accumulation of mutations caused apes to begin wading and adaptively evolve into humans? Is there a model for that?

                                 
                                James V. Kohl
                                Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                                Independent researcher
                                Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                                Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


                                From: hibbsa <hibbsa@...>
                                To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 6:39 AM
                                Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

                                 
                                Hi Stan,

                                I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.

                                --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                                >
                                > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                                > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                                > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                                > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                                > water."
                                >
                                > Stan
                                >
                                >
                                <snip>


                              • hibbsa
                                ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 5, 2013
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                                  ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.

                                  We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.

                                  --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Stan,
                                  >
                                  > I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.
                                  >
                                  > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                                  > > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                                  > > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                                  > > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                                  > > water."
                                  > >
                                  > > Stan
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > <snip>
                                  >
                                • BramH
                                  The fact that there are primal fears involved probably means that crossing a river is a critical moment; a time when differential survival takes place. So,
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 6, 2013
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                                    The fact that there are primal fears involved probably means that crossing a river is a critical moment; a time when differential survival takes place.

                                    So, even if wading was a rare event, if the survival of individuals depended on it, it may still have played a mayor role in evolution.

                                    This means that although we may have aquatic adpations (adaptations for wading), this doesn't mean we were aquatic apes.

                                    --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.
                                    >
                                    > We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.
                                    >
                                    > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@> wrote:

                                    <snip>
                                  • hibbsa
                                    Apes aren t keen on water, but it doesn t take much for an ape to calculate it is worth getting wet for something. This is just a guess, mostly to illustrate
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 6, 2013
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                                      Apes aren't keen on water, but it doesn't take much for an ape to calculate it is worth getting wet for something. This is just a guess, mostly to illustrate where I personally think the balance sits....but I would be surprised if chimps would choose a 1/4 mile trek over a short wade up to their chest for a shortcut


                                      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "BramH" <br.hessels@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > The fact that there are primal fears involved probably means that crossing a river is a critical moment; a time when differential survival takes place.
                                      >
                                      > So, even if wading was a rare event, if the survival of individuals depended on it, it may still have played a mayor role in evolution.
                                      >
                                      > This means that although we may have aquatic adpations (adaptations for wading), this doesn't mean we were aquatic apes.
                                      >
                                      > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.
                                      > >
                                      > > We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > <snip>
                                      >
                                    • Stan Franklin
                                      Yes, I agree, as long as swimming isn t required. Chimps and Gorillas live entirely North of the Congo River, while Bonobos live entirely South. As far as I
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 6, 2013
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                                        Yes, I agree, as long as swimming isn't required. Chimps and Gorillas live entirely North of the Congo River, while Bonobos live entirely South. As far as I now none of our ancestors were restricted to one side of a river.


                                        On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 1:34 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.

                                        We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.


                                        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi Stan,
                                        >
                                        > I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.
                                        >
                                        > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                                        > > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                                        > > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                                        > > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                                        > > water."
                                        > >
                                        > > Stan
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > <snip>
                                        >




                                        --
                                        Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
                                        W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
                                        Institute for Intelligent Systems        
                                        FedEx Institute of Technology              
                                        The University of Memphis
                                        Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
                                        901-678-1341
                                        personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
                                        lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

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