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Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

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  • Stan Franklin
    What s suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin effect -- ...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the evolution of that
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 29, 2013
      What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin effect -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the evolution of that species." <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_effect>

      Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a consequence of our wading while foraging in water.

      Stan


      On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Robert Karl Stonjek <stonjek@...> wrote:
       

      ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

      by Elizabeth Norton on 26 June 2013, 1:00 PM
       
      sn-elephants.jpgCredit: Patrick Bennett

      Modern African elephants have teeth designed for grazing—perhaps because their ancestors sought out new dining experiences millions of years ago, according to a study in today's issue of Nature. Beginning about 10 million years ago, East Africa began to change from woodland to drier grassland. The elephants' teeth changed as well; the crowns of molars became up to three times higher, and the teeth developed more of the enamel ridges that allowed the animal to grind grass, which is tougher than leaves and often laden with grit. To explore how well the timing of the changes matched up, the researcher focused on a carbon isotope called 13C, which is retained in soil in the same proportions as in the vegetation the soil once contained. By checking published literature for records of 13C in both soil and elephant fossils spanning some 20 million years, he found that many elephants and related species switched from browsing to grazing about 8 million years ago, when the terrain was still a mosaic of both woodland and grassland. Yet the changes in the teeth didn't appear for another 3 million years. The finding suggests that the elephants tried out new feeding areas and new types of food, thus putting themselves in a position where natural selection would favor individuals with better-adapted teeth. By challenging the more passive view of natural selection—in which an environmental change simply favored elephants with stronger teeth—the study uses fossil evidence to show that the animals' own behavior may have helped shape their evolutionary destiny.

      Source: Science
      http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2013/06/scienceshot-elephants-shaped-the.html?ref=em

      Posted by
      Robert Karl Stonjek




      --
      Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
      W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
      Institute for Intelligent Systems        
      FedEx Institute of Technology              
      The University of Memphis
      Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
      901-678-1341
      personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
      lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

    • rafonda@frontier.com
      ... AMEN! So obvious, IMO, and it neatly accounts for the aquatic adaptations without the ridiculous scenarios so often posited in the aquatic ape
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 29, 2013
        > our morphological adaptations for bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a consequence of our wading while foraging in water. <

        AMEN!

        So obvious, IMO, and it neatly accounts for the aquatic adaptations without the ridiculous scenarios so often posited in the 'aquatic ape' popularizations. If it could be attributed to 'life in Africa' it would already be dogma! However, since the type specimen of Oreo is from Europe, and even its extended range barely enters Africa, this idea has always been anathema. I see Oreo as the progenitor species for the 'piths, and note that early Homo was STILL mostly living around shallow water. 

        RAF
      • JVKohl
        What s exemplified is nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled morphogenesis.Note: The molecular mechanisms are conserved in species of vertebrates and
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 29, 2013
          What's exemplified is nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled morphogenesis. Note: The molecular mechanisms are conserved in species of vertebrates and invertebrates.

          Genome-wide association mapping of natural variation in odour-guided behaviour in Drosophila

          A defining goal in the field of behavioural genetics is to identify the key genes or genetic networks that shape behaviour. A corollary to this goal is the goal of identifying genetic variants that are responsible for variation in the behaviour. These goals are achieved by measuring behavioural responses to controlled stimuli, in the present case the responses of Drosophila melanogaster to olfactory stimuli. We used a high-throughput behavioural assay system to test a panel of 157 Drosophila inbred lines derived from a natural population for both temporal and spatial dynamics of odour-guided behaviour. We observed significant variation in response to the odourant 2,3-butanedione, a volatile compound present in fermenting fruit. The recent whole genome sequencing of these inbred lines allowed us to then perform genome-wide association analyses in order to identify genetic polymorphisms underlying variation in responses. These analyses revealed numerous single nucleotide polymorphisms associated with variation in responses. Among the candidate genes identified were both novel and previously identified olfaction-related genes. Further, gene network analyses suggest that genes influencing variation in odour-guided behaviour are enriched for functions involving neural processing and that these genes form a pleiotropic interaction network. We examined several of these candidate genes that were highly connected in the protein- and genetic interaction networks using RNA interference. Our results showed that subtle changes influencing nervous system function can result in marked differences in behaviour.
           
          Why is the above statement difficult to understand and apply to ecological, social, neurogenic, and socio-cognitive niche construction as is required for adaptive evolution? It is intuitively obvious that the foraging behavior of a group must shape the evolution of that species via nutrient acquisition and the metabolism of nutrients to species specific pheromones for adaptive evolution to occur. Does anyone think that morphogenesis is not nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled?

          James V. Kohl
          Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
          Independent researcher
          Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
          Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


          On 6/29/2013 11:29 AM, Stan Franklin wrote:
           
          What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin effect -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the evolution of that species." <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_effect>

          Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a consequence of our wading while foraging in water.

          Stan


          On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Robert Karl Stonjek <stonjek@...> wrote:
           

          ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

          by Elizabeth Norton on 26 June 2013, 1:00 PM
           
          Credit: Patrick Bennett

          Modern African elephants have teeth designed for grazing—perhaps because their ancestors sought out new dining experiences millions of years ago, according to a study in today's issue of Nature. Beginning about 10 million years ago, East Africa began to change from woodland to drier grassland. The elephants' teeth changed as well; the crowns of molars became up to three times higher, and the teeth developed more of the enamel ridges that allowed the animal to grind grass, which is tougher than leaves and often laden with grit. To explore how well the timing of the changes matched up, the researcher focused on a carbon isotope called 13C, which is retained in soil in the same proportions as in the vegetation the soil once contained. By checking published literature for records of 13C in both soil and elephant fossils spanning some 20 million years, he found that many elephants and related species switched from browsing to grazing about 8 million years ago, when the terrain was still a mosaic of both woodland and grassland. Yet the changes in the teeth didn't appear for another 3 million years. The finding suggests that the elephants tried out new feeding areas and new types of food, thus putting themselves in a position where natural selection would favor individuals with better-adapted teeth. By challenging the more passive view of natural selection—in which an environmental change simply favored elephants with stronger teeth—the study uses fossil evidence to show that the animals' own behavior may have helped shape their evolutionary destiny.

          Source: Science
          http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2013/06/scienceshot-elephants-shaped-the.html?ref=em

          Posted by
          Robert Karl Stonjek




          --
          Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
          W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
          Institute for Intelligent Systems        
          FedEx Institute of Technology              
          The University of Memphis
          Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
          901-678-1341
          personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
          lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>



          --
          James V. Kohl Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP) Independent researcher Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553. Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
        • BramH
          This is not stricktly speaking the Baldwin effect which involves social learning. What the authors try to emphasise is that a change in natural selection does
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 30, 2013
            This is not stricktly speaking the Baldwin effect which involves social
            learning.

            What the authors try to emphasise is that a change in natural selection
            does not necessarily have to start with a change in the environment
            (this is a quite common assumption). It can also result from a change of
            the organism itself.

            The bottomline is that what constitutes a selection presure is a product
            of how an organism relates to its environment:


            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
            >
            > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
            effect
            > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
            evolution
            > of that species."
            >
            > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
            > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
            > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
            >
            > Stan
            >
            >
            <Snip>
            >
            >
            > --
            > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
            > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
            > Institute for Intelligent Systems
            > FedEx Institute of Technology
            > The University of Memphis
            > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
            > 901-678-1341
            > personal >
            >
            > lab
            >
          • Stan Franklin
            There are a host of slightly different definitions of the Baldwin effect. The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can result from a
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 30, 2013
              There are a host of slightly different definitions of the Baldwin effect. The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can result from a change of not "the organism itself" but the behavior of the organism itself. Elephants learn to graze (a change in the behavior of the organism) giving a fitness advantage to certain shapes of molars. Or humans learn to wade in oceans, lakes, and rivers for food, giving a fitness advantage to morphological changes that support bipedalism. Perhaps you want to call these examples of social learning.

              Stan

              On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, BramH <br.hessels@...> wrote:
               

              This is not stricktly speaking the Baldwin effect which involves social
              learning.

              What the authors try to emphasise is that a change in natural selection
              does not necessarily have to start with a change in the environment
              (this is a quite common assumption). It can also result from a change of
              the organism itself.

              The bottomline is that what constitutes a selection presure is a product
              of how an organism relates to its environment:



              --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
              >
              > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
              effect
              > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
              evolution
              > of that species."
              >
              > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
              > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
              > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
              >
              > Stan
              >
              >
              <Snip>

              >
              >
              > --
              > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
              > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
              > Institute for Intelligent Systems
              > FedEx Institute of Technology
              > The University of Memphis
              > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
              > 901-678-1341
              > personal >
              >
              > lab
              >




              --
              Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
              W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
              Institute for Intelligent Systems        
              FedEx Institute of Technology              
              The University of Memphis
              Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
              901-678-1341
              personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
              lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

            • BramH
              I agree with most you re saying. It is important to acknowledge that behaviour can be a prime mover with regard to evolution by natural selection. This of
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013

                I agree with most you're saying. It is important to acknowledge that behaviour can be a prime mover with regard to evolution by natural selection. This of course is especially important in human evolution where culture and human free will can determine the course of evolution.

                Concerning the Baldwin effect, i believe purely culturally determined behaviours, such as spearthrowing, have immediate consequences for natural selection; they immediately change the adaptive landscape. Pick up a spear and immediately there will be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing abilities.

                I thought the Baldwin effect was a more convoluted process, involving several intermediate steps (don't know all the fine details though).

                Since humans have larger degree of freedom with regard to behaviour, human evolution is in some regards a unique process, It may well have involved several surprising steps (such as wading).

                 


                --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                >
                > There are a host of slightly different definitions of the Baldwin effect.
                > The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can
                > result from a change of not "the organism itself" but *the behavior of the
                > organism itself*. Elephants learn to graze (a change in the behavior of the
                > organism) giving a fitness advantage to certain shapes of molars. Or humans
                > learn to wade in oceans, lakes, and rivers for food, giving a fitness
                > advantage to morphological changes that support bipedalism. Perhaps you
                > want to call these examples of social learning.
                >
                > Stan
                >
                > On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, BramH br.hessels@... wrote:
                >
                > > **
                > >
                > >
                > > This is not stricktly speaking the Baldwin effect which involves social
                > > learning.
                > >
                > > What the authors try to emphasise is that a change in natural selection
                > > does not necessarily have to start with a change in the environment
                > > (this is a quite common assumption). It can also result from a change of
                > > the organism itself.
                > >
                > > The bottomline is that what constitutes a selection presure is a product
                > > of how an organism relates to its environment:
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                > > >
                > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                > > effect
                > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                > > evolution
                > > > of that species."
                > > >
                > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                > > >
                > > > Stan
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --
                > > > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                > > > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                > > > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                > > > FedEx Institute of Technology
                > > > The University of Memphis
                > > > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                > > > 901-678-1341
                > > > personal >
                > > >
                > > > lab
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                > FedEx Institute of Technology
                > The University of Memphis
                > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                > 901-678-1341
                > personal >
                >
                > lab
                >

              • james kohl
                From: BramH Pick up a spear and immediately there will be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
                  From: BramH <br.hessels@...> "Pick up a spear and immediately there will be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing abilities."

                  JK: Is there a model for that? I'm having difficulty imagining what you represent as cause and effect. How does picking up a spear cause the adaptive evolution of de novo genes for throwing and natural selection for throwing abilities? Is Natural Selection due to predators that eat those who cannot throw the spear better than their conspecifics as in the story told about the peppered moths?

                   
                  James V. Kohl
                  Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                  Independent researcher
                  Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                  Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


                  From: BramH <br.hessels@...>
                  To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 5:17 AM
                  Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

                   
                  I agree with most you're saying. It is important to acknowledge that behaviour can be a prime mover with regard to evolution by natural selection. This of course is especially important in human evolution where culture and human free will can determine the course of evolution.
                  Concerning the Baldwin effect, i believe purely culturally determined behaviours, such as spearthrowing, have immediate consequences for natural selection; they immediately change the adaptive landscape. Pick up a spear and immediately there will be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing abilities.
                  I thought the Baldwin effect was a more convoluted process, involving several intermediate steps (don't know all the fine details though).
                  Since humans have larger degree of freedom with regard to behaviour, human evolution is in some regards a unique process, It may well have involved several surprising steps (such as wading).
                   

                  --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                  >
                  > There are a host of slightly different definitions of the Baldwin effect.
                  > The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can
                  > result from a change of not "the organism itself" but *the behavior of the
                  > organism itself*. Elephants learn to graze (a change in the behavior of the
                  > organism) giving a fitness advantage to certain shapes of molars. Or humans
                  > learn to wade in oceans, lakes, and rivers for food, giving a fitness
                  > advantage to morphological changes that support bipedalism. Perhaps you
                  > want to call these examples of social learning.
                  >
                  > Stan
                  >
                  > On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, BramH br.hessels@... wrote:
                  >
                  > > **
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > This is not stricktly speaking the Baldwin effect which involves social
                  > > learning.
                  > >
                  > > What the authors try to emphasise is that a change in natural selection
                  > > does not necessarily have to start with a change in the environment
                  > > (this is a quite common assumption). It can also result from a change of
                  > > the organism itself.
                  > >
                  > > The bottomline is that what constitutes a selection presure is a product
                  > > of how an organism relates to its environment:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                  > > effect
                  > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                  > > evolution
                  > > > of that species."
                  > > >
                  > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                  > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                  > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                  > > >
                  > > > Stan
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --
                  > > > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                  > > > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                  > > > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                  > > > FedEx Institute of Technology
                  > > > The University of Memphis
                  > > > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                  > > > 901-678-1341
                  > > > personal >
                  > > >
                  > > > lab
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                  > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                  > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                  > FedEx Institute of Technology
                  > The University of Memphis
                  > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                  > 901-678-1341
                  > personal >
                  >
                  > lab
                  >


                • BramH
                  Humans only initiate behaviours that their genes allow them to do. If you can throw a spear it means you have the genetic constitution that allows you to throw
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
                    Humans only initiate behaviours that their genes allow them to do. If
                    you can throw a spear it means you have the genetic constitution that
                    allows you to throw a spear, even if you had never thrown a spear
                    before. So the genes initially involved in spear throwing are not de
                    novo, the way they are used is de novo. This sets up a new cause: the
                    differential survival and reproduction of individuals due to spear
                    throwing: the natural selection of throwing.

                    The assumption of this model is that genetic variation is ubiquitous;
                    different alleles are always present (and are supplemented by mutation).
                    The main difference with your model is that in standard Darwinian theory
                    evolutionary change is the sorting of genetic variants, it is not the
                    event of mutation itself.

                    --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, james kohl wrote:
                    >
                    > From: BramH br.hessels@... "Pick up a spear and immediately there will
                    be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing
                    abilities."
                    >
                    > JK: Is there a model for that? I'm having difficulty imagining what
                    you represent as cause and effect. How does picking up a spear cause the
                    adaptive evolution of de novo genes for throwing and natural selection
                    for throwing abilities? Is Natural Selection due to predators that eat
                    those who cannot throw the spear better than their conspecifics as in
                    the story told about the peppered moths?
                    >
                    >
                    > Â
                    > James V. Kohl
                    > Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                    > Independent researcher
                    > Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive
                    evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                    > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic
                    influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors.
                    Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    <Snip>
                  • james kohl
                    Pheromone-Induced Morphogenesis Improves Osmoadaptation Capacity by Activating the HOG MAPK Pathway Excerpt: Our work shows how a differentiation signal can
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013

                      Excerpt: "Our work shows how a differentiation signal can recruit a second, unrelated sensory pathway to fine-tune yeast response in a complex environment."

                      See also:



                      Stan wrote: "The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can result from a change of not "the organism itself" but the behavior of the organism itself.

                      JK: In my opinion, this is simply a statement indicating that any explanation will do that seems to fit the story line. But the information only fits the story line if the opinion ignores biological facts.
                       
                      Examples of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled morphogenesis exist across species from microbes to man. Why do some people believe in whatever they can make up?


                      James V. Kohl
                      Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                      Independent researcher
                      Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                      Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


                      From: Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@...>
                      To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 1:00 AM
                      Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

                       
                      There are a host of slightly different definitions of the Baldwin effect. The key point in my opinion is that a change in natural selection can result from a change of not "the organism itself" but the behavior of the organism itself. Elephants learn to graze (a change in the behavior of the organism) giving a fitness advantage to certain shapes of molars. Or humans learn to wade in oceans, lakes, and rivers for food, giving a fitness advantage to morphological changes that support bipedalism. Perhaps you want to call these examples of social learning.

                      Stan

                      On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM, BramH <br.hessels@...> wrote:
                       
                      This is not stricktly speaking the Baldwin effect which involves social
                      learning.

                      What the authors try to emphasise is that a change in natural selection
                      does not necessarily have to start with a change in the environment
                      (this is a quite common assumption). It can also result from a change of
                      the organism itself.

                      The bottomline is that what constitutes a selection presure is a product
                      of how an organism relates to its environment:


                      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                      >
                      > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                      effect
                      > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                      evolution
                      > of that species."
                      >
                      > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                      > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                      > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                      >
                      > Stan
                      >
                      >
                      <Snip>

                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                      > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                      > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                      > FedEx Institute of Technology
                      > The University of Memphis
                      > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                      > 901-678-1341
                      > personal >
                      >
                      > lab
                      >




                      --
                      Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
                      W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
                      Institute for Intelligent Systems        
                      FedEx Institute of Technology              
                      The University of Memphis
                      Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
                      901-678-1341
                      personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
                      lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>



                    • james kohl
                      Your continued misrepresentations of what I have detailed in my model represent the most unintelligent approach to discussion that I can imagine. Why not tell
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
                        Your continued misrepresentations of what I have detailed in my model represent the most unintelligent approach to discussion that I can imagine. Why not tell others how mutations cause adaptive evolution, if that's how you think you evolved? De novo gene creation is a fact! What you are telling others about de novo uses for genes is ridiculous. Is there a model for that?
                         
                        James V. Kohl
                        Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                        Independent researcher
                        Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                        Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


                        From: BramH <br.hessels@...>
                        To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 7:54 AM
                        Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

                         
                        Humans only initiate behaviours that their genes allow them to do. If
                        you can throw a spear it means you have the genetic constitution that
                        allows you to throw a spear, even if you had never thrown a spear
                        before. So the genes initially involved in spear throwing are not de
                        novo, the way they are used is de novo. This sets up a new cause: the
                        differential survival and reproduction of individuals due to spear
                        throwing: the natural selection of throwing.

                        The assumption of this model is that genetic variation is ubiquitous;
                        different alleles are always present (and are supplemented by mutation).
                        The main difference with your model is that in standard Darwinian theory
                        evolutionary change is the sorting of genetic variants, it is not the
                        event of mutation itself.

                        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, james kohl wrote:
                        >
                        > From: BramH br.hessels@... "Pick up a spear and immediately there will
                        be genes for throwing and there will be natural selection for throwing
                        abilities."
                        >
                        > JK: Is there a model for that? I'm having difficulty imagining what
                        you represent as cause and effect. How does picking up a spear cause the
                        adaptive evolution of de novo genes for throwing and natural selection
                        for throwing abilities? Is Natural Selection due to predators that eat
                        those who cannot throw the spear better than their conspecifics as in
                        the story told about the peppered moths?
                        >
                        >
                        > Â
                        > James V. Kohl
                        > Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                        > Independent researcher
                        > Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive
                        evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                        > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic
                        influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors.
                        Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        <Snip>


                      • Don Zimmerman
                        ... DWZ: That has been true right from the beginning of life on the planet. The metabolic processes of early organisms changed the composition of the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 1, 2013
                          --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "BramH" <br.hessels@...> wrote:

                          > It is important to acknowledge that
                          > behaviour can be a prime mover with regard to evolution by natural
                          > selection. This of course is especially important in human evolution
                          > where culture and human free will can determine the course of evolution.


                          DWZ:
                          That has been true right from the beginning of life on the planet. The metabolic processes of early organisms changed the composition of the atmosphere, as well as that of the oceans, so that later organisms had to adapt to a different environment. As populations of organisms changed as a result of natural selection, so also there constantly arose newer environments that determined further natural selection.

                          Today, in the case of human beings, alteration of our surroundings by behavior, society, and technology surely has become more important than anything else in shaping the future of evolution. All life coming into existence in times to come faces an environment unlike anything before, but also one that is changing more rapidly than any before.

                          Best regards,

                          Donald W. Zimmerman
                          Vancouver, BC, Canada
                          dwzimm@...
                          http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
                        • hibbsa
                          Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder how much
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 2, 2013
                            Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                            that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                            how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.

                            Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                            maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                            probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                            efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                            them.

                            psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                            >
                            > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                            effect
                            > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                            evolution
                            > of that species."
                            >
                            > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                            > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                            > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                            >
                            > Stan
                            >
                            >
                            <Snip>
                          • james kohl
                            Does anyone else find it somewhat ridiculous that discussion has turned to morphogenesis in primates at a time when morphogenesis across all species from
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 3, 2013
                              Does anyone else find it somewhat ridiculous that discussion has turned to morphogenesis in primates at a time when morphogenesis across all species from microbes to man has been modeled in the context of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution? See for example: Insect pheromone in elephants and  Pheromone-Induced Morphogenesis Improves Osmoadaptation Capacity by Activating the HOG MAPK Pathway. If, in theory, "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                              evolution of that species." -- how on earth can these two facts be ignored:  1) behavior is nutrient-dependent, and 2) reproduction is controlled by species-specific pheromones. 

                              For comparison, is there a model in which mutations theoretically caused our morphological adaptations for bipedalism (or any other morphological adaptation)? 

                              Did we evolve from aquatic apes? Elaine Morgan on TED.com | TED ...

                              blog.ted.com/2009/07/31/did_we_evolve_f/
                              Aug 5, 2010
                              Elaine Morgan is a tenacious proponent of the aquatic ape hypothesis: the idea that humans evolved from ...



                               
                              James V. Kohl
                              Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                              Independent researcher
                              Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                              Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


                              From: hibbsa <hibbsa@...>
                              To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:40 AM
                              Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

                               
                              Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                              that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                              how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.

                              Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                              maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                              probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                              efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                              them.

                              psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                              >
                              > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                              effect
                              > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                              evolution
                              > of that species."
                              >
                              > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                              > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                              > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                              >
                              > Stan
                              >
                              >
                              <Snip>


                            • Stan Franklin
                              Responses below. ... I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy,
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 3, 2013
                                Responses below.

                                On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                                that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                                how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.

                                I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal stance.


                                Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                                maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                                probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                                efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                                them.

                                I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.

                                Stan


                                psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                                >
                                > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                                effect
                                > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                                evolution
                                > of that species."
                                >
                                > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                                > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                                > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                                >
                                > Stan
                                >
                                >
                                <Snip>




                                --
                                Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
                                W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
                                Institute for Intelligent Systems        
                                FedEx Institute of Technology              
                                The University of Memphis
                                Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
                                901-678-1341
                                personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
                                lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

                              • hibbsa
                                Hi Stan, I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem. It is of course, a real possibility all the same. I ve
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 3, 2013

                                  Hi Stan,

                                  I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem.  It is of course, a real possibility all the same.

                                  I've actually seen chimps doing it. Not very scientific of course. A google of 'chimps wading' gets a fairly extensive...though I don't know for quality..response. At the least, wading goes on, on a fairly regular basis.

                                  This is Attenborough describing the wading theory, or a version of it. It's only a couple of minutes...includes video of contempory chimps wading to help make the point. Some of the chimps are mums carrying their babies...which has a deeply ingrained look.

                                  http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6288724SdYwPZTP

                                   

                                  --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Responses below.
                                  >
                                  > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa hibbsa@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > **
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                                  > > that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                                  > > how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.
                                  > >
                                  > I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward
                                  > morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from
                                  > the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal
                                  > stance.
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                                  > > maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                                  > > probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                                  > > efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                                  > > them.
                                  > >
                                  > I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few
                                  > individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape
                                  > typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I
                                  > know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and
                                  > regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.
                                  >
                                  > Stan
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                                  > > effect
                                  > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                                  > > evolution
                                  > > > of that species."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                                  > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                                  > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Stan
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                                  > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                                  > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                                  > FedEx Institute of Technology
                                  > The University of Memphis
                                  > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                                  > 901-678-1341
                                  > personal >
                                  >
                                  > lab
                                  >

                                • Stan Franklin
                                  Thanks for the pointer to the video. I m still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 4, 2013
                                    Thanks for the pointer to the video.

                                    I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water, as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water" yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid water."

                                    Stan


                                    On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 8:16 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    Hi Stan,

                                    I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem.  It is of course, a real possibility all the same.

                                    I've actually seen chimps doing it. Not very scientific of course. A google of 'chimps wading' gets a fairly extensive...though I don't know for quality..response. At the least, wading goes on, on a fairly regular basis.

                                    This is Attenborough describing the wading theory, or a version of it. It's only a couple of minutes...includes video of contempory chimps wading to help make the point. Some of the chimps are mums carrying their babies...which has a deeply ingrained look.

                                    http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6288724SdYwPZTP

                                     

                                    --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Responses below.
                                    >
                                    > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa hibbsa@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **

                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                                    > > that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                                    > > how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.
                                    > >
                                    > I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward
                                    > morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from
                                    > the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal
                                    > stance.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                                    > > maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                                    > > probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                                    > > efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                                    > > them.
                                    > >
                                    > I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few
                                    > individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape
                                    > typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I
                                    > know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and
                                    > regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.
                                    >
                                    > Stan
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                                    > > effect
                                    > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                                    > > evolution
                                    > > > of that species."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                                    > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                                    > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Stan
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                                    > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                                    > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                                    > FedEx Institute of Technology
                                    > The University of Memphis
                                    > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                                    > 901-678-1341
                                    > personal >
                                    >
                                    > lab
                                    >




                                    --
                                    Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
                                    W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
                                    Institute for Intelligent Systems        
                                    FedEx Institute of Technology              
                                    The University of Memphis
                                    Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
                                    901-678-1341
                                    personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
                                    lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

                                  • james kohl
                                    While we re expanding on theory and story-telling, it may be important to note the location of the axillary scent organ, which is fully exposed with arms
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 4, 2013
                                      While we're expanding on theory and story-telling, it may be important to note the location of the axillary scent organ, which is fully exposed with arms raised -- as in the video. In my model, this would be yet another example of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled morphogenesis, which extends to the adaptive evolution of breast development in human females via epigenetic effects as shown in data from Kamberov et al (2013) and Grossman et al (2013).

                                       
                                      James V. Kohl
                                      Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                                      Independent researcher
                                      Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                                      Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


                                      From: hibbsa <hibbsa@...>
                                      To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 9:16 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

                                       
                                      Hi Stan,
                                      I realized the jist of your idea....and was raising water bouyancy as a possible problem.  It is of course, a real possibility all the same.
                                      I've actually seen chimps doing it. Not very scientific of course. A google of 'chimps wading' gets a fairly extensive...though I don't know for quality..response. At the least, wading goes on, on a fairly regular basis.
                                      This is Attenborough describing the wading theory, or a version of it. It's only a couple of minutes...includes video of contempory chimps wading to help make the point. Some of the chimps are mums carrying their babies...which has a deeply ingrained look.
                                       
                                      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Responses below.
                                      >
                                      > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 11:40 PM, hibbsa hibbsa@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > **
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Stan, The extra support from water bouyancy is pretty much enough
                                      > > that apes are efficient on two feet when wading through water. I wonder
                                      > > how much selective pressure a scenario like that might generate.
                                      > >
                                      > I presumed that the selective pressure in our hominid ancestors toward
                                      > morphogenesis favoring bipedalism arose not from water buoyancy, but from
                                      > the ability to wade further out in search of food as a result of a bipedal
                                      > stance.
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > Another thought is that other species of ape are wading on a regular -
                                      > > maybe daily - basis, and the practice appears pretty ancient. Wading is
                                      > > probably the only bipedalism apes can sustain with reasonable
                                      > > efficiency. The practice doesn't appear led to bouts of evolution for
                                      > > them.
                                      > >
                                      > I know of no other species of ape that wades regularly, though a few
                                      > individuals of some species do so in search of food. The other great ape
                                      > typically avoid being in water. The only regularly wading primate that I
                                      > know of is the proboscis monkey that often lives in mangrove swamps, and
                                      > regularly wades between patches of mangrove trees.
                                      >
                                      > Stan
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > What's suggested in this article is a clear example of the Baldwin
                                      > > effect
                                      > > > -- "...the sustained behavior of a species or group can shape the
                                      > > evolution
                                      > > > of that species."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Another such example in we humans is our morphological adaptations for
                                      > > > bipedalism which, in my opinion, arose via the Baldwin effect as a
                                      > > > consequence of our wading while foraging in water.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Stan
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Stan Franklin Professor Computer Science
                                      > W. Harry Feinstone Interdisciplinary Research Professor
                                      > Institute for Intelligent Systems
                                      > FedEx Institute of Technology
                                      > The University of Memphis
                                      > Memphis, TN 38152 USA
                                      > 901-678-1341
                                      > personal >
                                      >
                                      > lab
                                      >


                                    • hibbsa
                                      Hi Stan, I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 5, 2013
                                        Hi Stan,

                                        I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.

                                        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                                        >
                                        > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                                        > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                                        > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                                        > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                                        > water."
                                        >
                                        > Stan
                                        >
                                        >
                                        <snip>
                                      • james kohl
                                        Do you think that a mutation or accumulation of mutations caused apes to begin wading and adaptively evolve into humans? Is there a model for that?   James V.
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 5, 2013
                                          Do you think that a mutation or accumulation of mutations caused apes to begin wading and adaptively evolve into humans? Is there a model for that?

                                           
                                          James V. Kohl
                                          Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                                          Independent researcher
                                          Kohl, J.V. (2013) Nutrient-dependent/pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution: a model. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 3: 20553.
                                          Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.


                                          From: hibbsa <hibbsa@...>
                                          To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 6:39 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [evol-psych] ScienceShot: Elephants Shaped Their Own Evolution

                                           
                                          Hi Stan,

                                          I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.

                                          --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                                          >
                                          > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                                          > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                                          > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                                          > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                                          > water."
                                          >
                                          > Stan
                                          >
                                          >
                                          <snip>


                                        • hibbsa
                                          ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 5, 2013
                                            ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.

                                            We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.

                                            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Stan,
                                            >
                                            > I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.
                                            >
                                            > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                                            > >
                                            > > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                                            > > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                                            > > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                                            > > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                                            > > water."
                                            > >
                                            > > Stan
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > <snip>
                                            >
                                          • BramH
                                            The fact that there are primal fears involved probably means that crossing a river is a critical moment; a time when differential survival takes place. So,
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 6, 2013
                                              The fact that there are primal fears involved probably means that crossing a river is a critical moment; a time when differential survival takes place.

                                              So, even if wading was a rare event, if the survival of individuals depended on it, it may still have played a mayor role in evolution.

                                              This means that although we may have aquatic adpations (adaptations for wading), this doesn't mean we were aquatic apes.

                                              --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.
                                              >
                                              > We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.
                                              >
                                              > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@> wrote:

                                              <snip>
                                            • hibbsa
                                              Apes aren t keen on water, but it doesn t take much for an ape to calculate it is worth getting wet for something. This is just a guess, mostly to illustrate
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 6, 2013
                                                Apes aren't keen on water, but it doesn't take much for an ape to calculate it is worth getting wet for something. This is just a guess, mostly to illustrate where I personally think the balance sits....but I would be surprised if chimps would choose a 1/4 mile trek over a short wade up to their chest for a shortcut


                                                --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "BramH" <br.hessels@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > The fact that there are primal fears involved probably means that crossing a river is a critical moment; a time when differential survival takes place.
                                                >
                                                > So, even if wading was a rare event, if the survival of individuals depended on it, it may still have played a mayor role in evolution.
                                                >
                                                > This means that although we may have aquatic adpations (adaptations for wading), this doesn't mean we were aquatic apes.
                                                >
                                                > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.
                                                > >
                                                > > We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > <snip>
                                                >
                                              • Stan Franklin
                                                Yes, I agree, as long as swimming isn t required. Chimps and Gorillas live entirely North of the Congo River, while Bonobos live entirely South. As far as I
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jul 6, 2013
                                                  Yes, I agree, as long as swimming isn't required. Chimps and Gorillas live entirely North of the Congo River, while Bonobos live entirely South. As far as I now none of our ancestors were restricted to one side of a river.


                                                  On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 1:34 PM, hibbsa <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                                   

                                                  ...I suppose taking the supposition your idea was correct, and then factoring this idea that aversion to water played a key part in the directionality of evolution toward bipedalism, instead of just swimming; psychologically speaking there are some interesting primal fears common to humans that involve water.

                                                  We don't fear water outright...but then nor do apes. They want to avoid water, but not at any cost. If there's a good enough reason to get to the other side, apes will wade across the river.


                                                  --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Stan,
                                                  >
                                                  > I would certainly agree that apes avoid water. I see this as almost a precondition for wading. In those videos the behaviour of the waders is certainly consistent with water-avoidance. Probably, without that basic preference, the direction would be more in the direction of swimming.
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Stan Franklin <franklin.stan@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks for the pointer to the video.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I'm still of the view that wading is a rarity for great apes other than
                                                  > > humans. They seem to almost always actively avoid being immersed in water,
                                                  > > as do cats other than tigers. Searching Google for "chimps avoid water"
                                                  > > yields many assertions of this belief. The same is true for "gorillas avoid
                                                  > > water."
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Stan
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > <snip>
                                                  >




                                                  --
                                                  Stan Franklin   Professor   Computer Science
                                                  W. Harry  Feinstone  Interdisciplinary  Research   Professor
                                                  Institute for Intelligent Systems        
                                                  FedEx Institute of Technology              
                                                  The University of Memphis
                                                  Memphis, TN 38152 USA  
                                                  901-678-1341
                                                  personal <http://stanfranklin.com/>  
                                                  lab <http://ccrg.cs.memphis.edu/>

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