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Re: [evol-psych] Re: On gene-damaged human instincts -- examples from an insider

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  • Edgar Owen
    Albert, These results are highly misleading. They apply to ethnic origin, not degree of belief in religious delusion. For example many persons of Jewish
    Message 1 of 27 , May 17, 2013
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      Albert,

      These results are highly misleading. They apply to ethnic origin, not degree of belief in religious delusion.

      For example many persons of Jewish background don't believe in the ancient delusions of their religion. Einstein for example.

      The comparison you'd want to measure would be between ultra-orthodox delusional Jews and Jews who belief in a scientific view of the universe... I suspect you'd find the ultra-orthodox Jews have a considerably lower average intelligence. And similar for the other religions.

      And there are of course many prominent Muslim scientists whom I'm sure are much more intelligent than the average Muslim extremist.

      I suspect Don is correct after all....

      Edgar



      On May 17, 2013, at 2:33 PM, Albert Himoe wrote:

       

      Don Zimmerman wrote:

      > What would be the difference, if any, of the mean IQ of atheists and non-atheists?
      > I would guess the atheists would come out at about 10 IQ points higher than the > non-atheists.
      >On second thought, make that 12 IQ points instead of 10.
       
      Don's direction was correct, but the differences were smaller:
       
      A study of a similar nature has already been done, published in Intelligence:
      Nyborg, Intelligence 37(1), 81-93.
       
      Large samples white Americans IQ test results were analyzed by religious denomination: It turns out that Don's direction was correct, but he overestimated the magnitude of the effect.
      --------------------------------------------------------
      Results:
      Top 5:
      Episcopal/Anglican    113
      Jewish                        112
      Atheist                       111
      Agnostic                      109
      Methodist                    108
       
      Overall Average:        106
       
      Bottom 5:
      Muslim                        105
      Personal Philosophy   104
      Holiness                      104
      Baptist                       102
      Pentecostal                  102


    • Don Zimmerman
      ... DWZ: The Top 5, Bottom 5 comparison mixes different types of categories. For example, Muslim and Christian are comparable categories, but Jewish and
      Message 2 of 27 , May 17, 2013
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        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:

        > These results are highly misleading. They apply to ethnic origin, not degree of belief in religious delusion.
        >
        > For example many persons of Jewish background don't believe in the ancient delusions of their religion. Einstein for example.
        >
        > The comparison you'd want to measure would be between ultra-orthodox delusional Jews and Jews who belief in a scientific view of the universe... I suspect you'd find the ultra-orthodox Jews have a considerably lower average intelligence. And similar for the other religions.
        >
        > And there are of course many prominent Muslim scientists whom I'm sure are much more intelligent than the average Muslim extremist.
        >
        > I suspect Don is correct after all....


        DWZ:
        The "Top 5," "Bottom 5" comparison mixes different types of categories. For example, Muslim and Christian are comparable categories, but Jewish and Methodist are not. To answer the original question, the comparison should be between atheists and theists (within one category, as you say), with many other things held constant.

        But the trouble with all research of this sort is that, the more you hold other things constant, the more likely it becomes that any difference of interest at some point will simply disappear. Some of the things you want to take out of the picture, may in fact be related to the variable you want to stay in the picture. At any rate, I am willing to accept that my hypothesized 10 and 12 point difference may be excessive!

        Best regards,

        Donald W. Zimmerman
        Vancouver, BC, Canada
        dwzimm@...
        http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
      • james kohl
        If a current survey linked IQ and belief in mutations theory, the results might properly place atheists in the context of their belief in scientifically
        Message 3 of 27 , May 17, 2013
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          If a current survey linked IQ and belief in mutations theory, the results might properly place atheists in the context of their belief in scientifically unsubstantiated theory, and their religious disbelief. The clear indication of being intelligent enough to know better could be contrasted with acceptance of a ridiculous theory as if it were based on biological facts.

          Survey results from 1998 are of little use, since the human genome project had not yet been completed. Thus, the people who believed in mutations theory had yet to learn how utterly ridiculous it was, as some did when it was discovered that the human genome consists of ~25K genes not 100K. There are probably plenty of other reasons why Francis Collins, who led the human genome project to its completion, is a Christian. But the fact that the number of genes simply doesn't match anything about evolutionary theory via accumulated mutations is one reason to dispense with the opinionated offerings here, and try to address the biological facts, since evolutionary biology is part of evolutionary psychology no matter what you believe.
           
          James V. Kohl
          Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
          Independent researcher
          Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.



          From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>
          To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, May 17, 2013 8:15:38 PM
          Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Re: On gene-damaged human instincts -- examples from an insider

           

          Albert,


          These results are highly misleading. They apply to ethnic origin, not degree of belief in religious delusion.

          For example many persons of Jewish background don't believe in the ancient delusions of their religion. Einstein for example.

          The comparison you'd want to measure would be between ultra-orthodox delusional Jews and Jews who belief in a scientific view of the universe... I suspect you'd find the ultra-orthodox Jews have a considerably lower average intelligence. And similar for the other religions.

          And there are of course many prominent Muslim scientists whom I'm sure are much more intelligent than the average Muslim extremist.

          I suspect Don is correct after all....

          Edgar



          On May 17, 2013, at 2:33 PM, Albert Himoe wrote:

           

          Don Zimmerman wrote:

          > What would be the difference, if any, of the mean IQ of atheists and non-atheists?
          > I would guess the atheists would come out at about 10 IQ points higher than the > non-atheists.
          >On second thought, make that 12 IQ points instead of 10.
           
          Don's direction was correct, but the differences were smaller:
           
          A study of a similar nature has already been done, published in Intelligence:
          Nyborg, Intelligence 37(1), 81-93.
           
          Large samples white Americans IQ test results were analyzed by religious denomination: It turns out that Don's direction was correct, but he overestimated the magnitude of the effect.
          --------------------------------------------------------
          Results:
          Top 5:
          Episcopal/Anglican    113
          Jewish                        112
          Atheist                       111
          Agnostic                      109
          Methodist                    108
           
          Overall Average:        106
           
          Bottom 5:
          Muslim                        105
          Personal Philosophy   104
          Holiness                      104
          Baptist                       102
          Pentecostal                  102


        • james kohl
          DWZ wrote: At any rate, I am willing to accept that my hypothesized 10 and 12 point difference may be excessive! JK: Are you willing to also accept the fact
          Message 4 of 27 , May 18, 2013
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            DWZ wrote: "At any rate, I am willing to accept that my hypothesized 10 and 12 point difference may be excessive!"

            JK: Are you willing to also accept the fact that the difference makes no difference to anything that might otherwise be pertinent to the biological basis of evolutionary psychology? We might just as well discuss the relative intelligence of insects compared to non-human primates in the context of their religious disbelief.

            Instead, here we have examples of people who are seemingly intelligent enough to communicate in writing their ridiculous opinions, but who cannot seem to fathom how ridiculous their communication is in the context of adaptively evolved brain-directed behavior.
             
            James V. Kohl
            Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
            Independent researcher
            Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.



            From: Don Zimmerman <dwzimm@...>
            To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sat, May 18, 2013 3:55:50 AM
            Subject: [evol-psych] Re: On gene-damaged human instincts -- examples from an insider

             

            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:

            > These results are highly misleading. They apply to ethnic origin, not degree of belief in religious delusion.
            >
            > For example many persons of Jewish background don't believe in the ancient delusions of their religion. Einstein for example.
            >
            > The comparison you'd want to measure would be between ultra-orthodox delusional Jews and Jews who belief in a scientific view of the universe... I suspect you'd find the ultra-orthodox Jews have a considerably lower average intelligence. And similar for the other religions.
            >
            > And there are of course many prominent Muslim scientists whom I'm sure are much more intelligent than the average Muslim extremist.
            >
            > I suspect Don is correct after all....

            DWZ:
            The "Top 5," "Bottom 5" comparison mixes different types of categories. For example, Muslim and Christian are comparable categories, but Jewish and Methodist are not. To answer the original question, the comparison should be between atheists and theists (within one category, as you say), with many other things held constant.

            But the trouble with all research of this sort is that, the more you hold other things constant, the more likely it becomes that any difference of interest at some point will simply disappear. Some of the things you want to take out of the picture, may in fact be related to the variable you want to stay in the picture. At any rate, I am willing to accept that my hypothesized 10 and 12 point difference may be excessive!

            Best regards,

            Donald W. Zimmerman
            Vancouver, BC, Canada
            dwzimm@...
            http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899

          • Albert Himoe
            ... AH: Since the number of atheists in the sample was relatively small, it will contribute little to the overall average, which was 106. Since atheists were
            Message 5 of 27 , May 18, 2013
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              >DWZ:
              >The "Top 5," "Bottom 5" comparison mixes different types of categories. For example, Muslim and Christian are comparable categories, but Jewish and Methodist are not. To answer the original question, the comparison should be between atheists and theists (within one category, as you say), with many other things held constant.

              AH:

              Since the number of atheists in the sample was relatively small, it will contribute little to the overall average, which was 106. Since "atheists" were 111, the true IQ difference between atheists and non-atheists in this [large] sample must be close to 5 IQ points.
            • Don Zimmerman
              ... DWZ: Another point that might be noted is that the IQ difference between atheists and non-atheists probably changes as the years pass. As science,
              Message 6 of 27 , May 18, 2013
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                --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Albert Himoe <himoe@...> wrote:

                > Since the number of atheists in the sample was relatively small, it will contribute little to the overall average, which was 106. Since "atheists" were 111, the true IQ difference between atheists and non-atheists in this [large] sample must be close to 5 IQ points.
                >

                DWZ:
                Another point that might be noted is that the IQ difference between atheists and non-atheists probably changes as the years pass. As science, technology, and education becomes more widespread and superstition declines, almost everybody eventually will be an atheist. The relatively few non-atheists still alive will be found largely among uneducated and superstitious people.

                In that future world, paradoxically, the mean IQ of atheists should actually decline, because their numbers will expand to include many more people of average intelligence. However, the mean IQ of the relatively few non-atheists may decline much more. Perhaps the difference will turn out to be something like: atheists, 101, and non-atheists, 87.

                Best regards,

                Donald W. Zimmerman
                Vancouver, BC, Canada
                dwzimm@...
                http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
              • Don Zimmerman
                ... DWZ: I should think that, if an IQ difference between blacks and whites, or between men and women, is of any interest to evolutionary psychologists, the
                Message 7 of 27 , May 18, 2013
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                  --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, james kohl <jvkohl@...> wrote:

                  > Are you willing to also accept the fact that the difference makes no
                  > difference to anything that might otherwise be pertinent to the biological basis
                  > of evolutionary psychology? We might just as well discuss the relative
                  > intelligence of insects compared to non-human primates in the context of their
                  > religious disbelief.


                  DWZ:
                  I should think that, if an IQ difference between blacks and whites, or between men and women, is of any interest to evolutionary psychologists, the difference between atheists and religious believers might be too. In fact, the latter difference conceivably could be relevant to the notion that a "religious instinct" is inherited, among other things.

                  Best regards,

                  Donald W. Zimmerman
                  Vancouver, BC, Canada
                  dwzimm@...
                  http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
                • james kohl
                  From: Don Zimmerman ... DWZ: I should think that, if an IQ difference between blacks and whites, or between men and women, is of any
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 18, 2013
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                    From: Don Zimmerman
                    --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, james kohl wrote:


                    > Are you willing to also accept the fact that the difference makes no
                    > difference to anything that might otherwise be pertinent to the biological basis
                    > of evolutionary psychology? We might just as well discuss the relative
                    > intelligence of insects compared to non-human primates in the context of their
                    > religious disbelief.

                    DWZ:
                    I should think that, if an IQ difference between blacks and whites, or between men and women, is of any interest to evolutionary psychologists, the difference between atheists and religious believers might be too. In fact, the latter difference conceivably could be relevant to the notion that a "religious instinct" is inherited, among other things.

                    JK: Thanks. How might mutations theory lead to adaptively evolved inherited differences in the IQ of atheists and religious believers? In my model, nutrient-dependent differences in IQ clearly involve amino acid substitutions.� You seem to have no model and I've seen no indication of what theoretical approach you have developed. That suggests your opinions are worth as much as anyone else's opinions about cause and effect whether the differences are between blacks and whites, or between men and women, or between whoever and whatever. What value are you placing on your opinions about IQ that leads you to offer them to us here?

                    James V. Kohl
                    Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                    Independent researcher
                    Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338



                    Best regards,

                    Donald W. Zimmerman
                    Vancouver, BC, Canada
                    dwzimm@...
                    http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899

                  • rafonda@frontier.com
                    Don, ... But the correlation to IQ is not so clear. Yes, it WOULD seem intuitive that those who are more intelligent would be less delusional, and at a gross
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 19, 2013
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                      Don,

                      I am very much in agreement with this view:

                      >... style="font-family: Georgia; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.22em; background-color: transparent;"> a "religious instinct" is inherited <

                      But the correlation to IQ is not so clear. Yes, it WOULD seem intuitive that those who are more intelligent would be less delusional, and at a gross level, that is likely true: scientifically educated people are less likely to believe in blue elephant gods, or even 7-day-universe-creators. Still, people believe what they NEED to believe, and intelligent people are just better at rationalizing away contraindications to their cherished views. So a lot of high IQ people seem quite delusional to me; it is just that their delusions tend toward secular belief systems.

                      RAF
                    • james kohl
                      From: rafonda@frontier.com ...scientifically educated people are less likely to believe in blue elephant gods, or even
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 20, 2013
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                        From: "rafonda@..." <rafonda@...> "...scientifically educated people are less likely to believe in blue elephant gods, or even 7-day-universe-creators."

                        JK: Scientifically educated people also seem more likely to believe in mutations theory. It's as if they have become so scientifically educated that they think they can ignore the biological facts: Adaptive evolution is nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled.

                        For example, there has been no response to any of my posts that attempt to address Darwin's 'conditions of life,' which he clearly put before Natural Selection, since selection occurs in living organisms. What does ignorance of 'conditions of life' suggest to others about the ability of scientifically educated people to grasp the biological facts on which beliefs must be based? To me it suggests they are scientifically educated buffoons with scientifically uninformed beliefs.

                        If Darwin exemplifies someone intelligent and scientifically informed (if only via his own observations) why are his 'conditions of life' not held up as examples of how nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution must be included in consideration of evolutionary psychology now that we know the molecular mechanisms of adaptive evolution are the same in every species?
                         
                        James V. Kohl
                        Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
                        Independent researcher
                        Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.



                        From: "rafonda@..." <rafonda@...>
                        To: "evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com" <evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sun, May 19, 2013 11:30:09 PM
                        Subject: Re: [evol-psych] Re: On gene-damaged human instincts -- examples from an insider

                         

                        Don,

                        I am very much in agreement with this view:

                        >... style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;"> a "religious instinct" is inherited <

                        But the correlation to IQ is not so clear. Yes, it WOULD seem intuitive that those who are more intelligent would be less delusional, and at a gross level, that is likely true: scientifically educated people are less likely to believe in blue elephant gods, or even 7-day-universe-creators. Still, people believe what they NEED to believe, and intelligent people are just better at rationalizing away contraindications to their cherished views. So a lot of high IQ people seem quite delusional to me; it is just that their delusions tend toward secular belief systems.

                        RAF
                      • Don Zimmerman
                        ... DWZ: I would suggest that the need to believe is subsidiary to needs for food, water, clothing, etc. People s beliefs reflect the interactions with other
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 20, 2013
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                          --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "rafonda@..." <rafonda@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Don,
                          >
                          > I am very much in agreement with this view:
                          >
                          > >... a "religious instinct" is inherited <
                          >
                          > But the correlation to IQ is not so clear. Yes, it WOULD seem intuitive that those who are more intelligent would be less delusional, and at a gross level, that is likely true: scientifically educated people are less likely to believe in blue elephant gods, or even 7-day-universe-creators. Still, people believe what they NEED to believe, and intelligent people are just better at rationalizing away contraindications to their cherished views. So a lot of high IQ people seem quite delusional to me; it is just that their delusions tend toward secular belief systems.


                          DWZ:
                          I would suggest that "the need to believe" is subsidiary to needs for food, water, clothing, etc. People's beliefs reflect the interactions with other people that have come about in the ongoing process of acquiring those necessities of life. People do not worship medicine men, shamans, kings, and fictitious beings of various sorts, unless they obtain something in return, which in some cases can be no more than the fact of being allowed to stay alive. Since the need for food and freedom from slavery and death can be extremely strong, in time the associated beliefs systems can become equally strong. Physiological needs come first; then "social needs" are appended in the process of adapting to culture.

                          Best regards,

                          Donald W. Zimmerman
                          Vancouver, BC, Canada
                          dwzimm@...
                          http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
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