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Re: [evol-psych] News: Big brains, no fur, sinuses . are these clues to our ancestors' lives as 'aquatic apes'?

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  • hibbsa
    ... answer such ... harness fire. ... enabled ... So then do you (a) deny that fire was the essential component for why grasses rose to dominance? or (b)
    Message 1 of 19 , May 2 7:21 AM
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      > JK: The straight and direct answer is that I would never attempt to
      answer such
      > a foolish question involving the ability of grasses to genetically
      harness fire.
      > However, I might attempt to address a model in which mutations somehow
      enabled
      > grasses to genetically harness fire. Is there a model for that?


      So then do you (a) deny that fire was the essential component for why
      grasses rose to dominance? or (b) accept this is the case but call it a
      lucky intersection of random phenomena?

      If (b) then can you explain the distinction between that, and an
      instance of natural selection involving genetic manifestations such as
      the ability of grasses to survive fires and simply regrow in their wake,
      given fires actually occured and given grasses rose to dominance as a
      result, as a randomly assigned selective benefit for those traits?

      Or did the traits come about as the result of a non-random process
      involving nutrient gradients or any other mechanism?

      Or do you have another non-random description for what actually occured?




      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, james kohl wrote:
      >
      > From: hibbsa hibbsa@...
      >
      > Jim - but how would you explain the genetic harnessing of fire by
      >
      > grasses, as part of a successful strategy of supplanting forests?
      >
      > Just give a straight and direct answer to this specific problem old
      boy.
      > JK: The straight and direct answer is that I would never attempt to
      answer such
      > a foolish question involving the ability of grasses to genetically
      harness fire.
      > However, I might attempt to address a model in which mutations somehow
      enabled
      > grasses to genetically harness fire. Is there a model for that?
      >
      > > -- James V. Kohl
      > > Medical laboratory scientist
      > > ASCP AMT ASCLS
      > > Independent researcher
      > > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors...
      > > Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
      > > http://dx.doi.org/10.3402/snp.v2i0.17338
      >
      >
      > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, JVKohl wrote:
      > >
      > > Excerpted from below: Fire. It's a great source of the feedback
      > > mechanisms that would have been necessary to drive human evolution
      > >
      > > The feedback mechanisms that drive adaptive evolution of the human
      > brain
      > > and behavior are nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled. Why is
      > > this not clear? Feedback loops link odor and pheromone signaling
      with
      > > reproduction .
      > > This isn't simply the case with vertebrates, it's the same with
      > species
      > > from microbes to man. Feedback between Population and Evolutionary
      > > Dynamics Determines the Fate of Social Microbial Populations.
      > > See also:
      > > Pheromone-Induced Morphogenesis Improves Osmoadaptation Capacity by
      > > Activating the HOG MAPK Pathway
      > >
      > >
      > > Does the level of ignorance here seem to anyone else to be
      increasing
      > > against the flow of information from virtually every scientific
      source
      > > and from every different discipline I have integrated into my model?
      > How
      > > can anyone explain that phenomenon? Are random mutations causes the
      > > brains of evolutionary theorists to regress to a more primitive
      state
      > as
      > > occurs with nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled adaptive
      evolution
      > > and eye regression in cave fish?
      > >
      > >
      > > --
      > > James V. Kohl
      > > Medical laboratory scientist
      > > ASCP AMT ASCLS
      > > Independent researcher
      > > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors...
      > > Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
      > > http://dx.doi.org/10.3402/snp.v2i0.17338
      > >
      > > =================================
      > >
      > > Steve,
      > >
      > > Why not just cite the part that states "...and by the aid of fire
      > cooks food otherwise indigestible." In my model, that's the
      > nutrient-dependent part of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled
      > adaptive evolution. Is there a part that tells us how mutations are
      > involved in adaptive evolution?
      > >
      > > Do you realize you just cited the chapter in which Darwin repeatedly
      > mentions his 'conditons of existence' / conditions for life, which we
      > now know are obviously nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled?
      > >
      > > • … changed conditions of life are of the highest
      importance
      > in causing variability, both by acting directly on the organisation,
      and
      > indirectly by affecting the reproductive system …
      (author‟s
      > italics)" and "it is generally acknowledged that all organic
      > beings have been formed on two great laws â€" „Unity of
      > Type‟ and the „Conditions of Existence‟
      … in fact
      > the law of the `Conditions of Existence' is the higher law, as
      > it includes, through the inheritance of former variations and
      > adaptations, that of Unity of Type" (Origin, Chapters 5 & 6, 6th
      > edition). -- from Marsh (2011)
      > >
      > > Do you think that most evolutionary theorists are even minimally
      aware
      > of what Darwin really said, or like me do you think they simply bought
      > into the bastardized version of his work because they did not have the
      > intelligence to grasp the complexity or consistency?
      > >
      > > -- James V. Kohl
      > > Medical laboratory scientist
      > > ASCP AMT ASCLS
      > > Independent researcher
      > > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors...
      > > Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
      > > http://dx.doi.org/10.3402/snp.v2i0.17338
      > >
      > > On 5/1/2013 12:23 PM, Steve Corsini wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Is there a Fire-Ape hypothesis?
      > > >
      > > > See: Charles Darwin The Descent of Man [ 1871 ]
      > > >
      > > > Chapter V - On the Development of the Intellectual and Moral
      > Faculties
      > >
      > > =========================================
      > >
      > > On 5/1/2013 1:48 PM, Stan Franklin wrote:
      > > >
      > > > There's a book that makes this point: Wrangham, R. (2009).
      Catching
      > Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human Basic Books.
      > > >
      > > > Stan
      > > OK, let's be clear then. For some reason I have not made that point
      in
      > my model of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled adaptive
      evolution.
      > > And I think that reason is ignorance of extant literature that most
      > people away from this group have integrated into their opinions about
      > adaptive evolution.
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
    • james kohl
      From: hibbsa ... answer such ... harness fire. ... enabled ... So then do you (a) deny that fire was the essential component for why grasses
      Message 2 of 19 , May 2 5:13 PM
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        From: hibbsa
        JK: The straight and direct answer is that I would never attempt to

        answer such

        > a foolish question involving the ability of grasses to genetically
        harness fire.
        > However, I might attempt to address a model in which mutations somehow
        enabled
        > grasses to genetically harness fire. Is there a model for that?

        So then do you (a) deny that fire was the essential component for why
        grasses rose to dominance? or (b) accept this is the case but call it a
        lucky intersection of random phenomena?

        JK: I deny that there is any point whatsoever to such questions in the context of evolutionary psychology. Please place the rise of grasses to dominance is whatever context you wish to discuss it. Do you want to place it in the context of random mutations theory, for example?

        If (b) then can you explain the distinction between that, and an
        instance of natural selection involving genetic manifestations such as
        the ability of grasses to survive fires and simply regrow in their wake,
        given fires actually occured and given grasses rose to dominance as a
        result, as a randomly assigned selective benefit for those traits?

        JK: The problem for me is that I have never considered thinking about this, must less explaining such distinctions.

        Or did the traits come about as the result of a non-random process involving nutrient gradients or any other mechanism?

        Or do you have another non-random description for what actually occured?

        JK: I have a description for what you are trying to involve me in: it's� nonsensical "foolishness." Offer me a theory of how mutations randomly caused something to occur if that's what you think might have happened.

        James V. Kohl
        Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
        Independent researcher
        Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic influences on the socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.

        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, james kohl wrote:
        >
        > From: hibbsa hibbsa@...
        >
        > Jim - but how would you explain the genetic harnessing of fire by
        >
        > grasses, as part of a successful strategy of supplanting forests?
        >
        > Just give a straight and direct answer to this specific problem old
        boy.
        > JK: The straight and direct answer is that I would never attempt to
        answer such
        > a foolish question involving the ability of grasses to genetically
        harness fire.
        > However, I might attempt to address a model in which mutations somehow
        enabled
        > grasses to genetically harness fire. Is there a model for that?
        >
        > > -- James V. Kohl
        > > Medical laboratory scientist
        > > ASCP AMT ASCLS
        > > Independent researcher
        > > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors...
        > > Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
        > > http://dx.doi.org/10.3402/snp.v2i0.17338
        >
        >
        > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, JVKohl wrote:
        > >
        > > Excerpted from below: Fire. It's a great source of the feedback
        > > mechanisms that would have been necessary to drive human evolution
        > >
        > > The feedback mechanisms that drive adaptive evolution of the human
        > brain
        > > and behavior are nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled. Why is
        > > this not clear? Feedback loops link odor and pheromone signaling
        with
        > > reproduction .
        > > This isn't simply the case with vertebrates, it's the same with
        > species
        > > from microbes to man. Feedback between Population and Evolutionary
        > > Dynamics Determines the Fate of Social Microbial Populations.
        > > See also:
        > > Pheromone-Induced Morphogenesis Improves Osmoadaptation Capacity by
        > > Activating the HOG MAPK Pathway
        > >
        > >
        > > Does the level of ignorance here seem to anyone else to be
        increasing
        > > against the flow of information from virtually every scientific
        source
        > > and from every different discipline I have integrated into my model?
        > How
        > > can anyone explain that phenomenon? Are random mutations causes the
        > > brains of evolutionary theorists to regress to a more primitive
        state
        > as
        > > occurs with nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled adaptive
        evolution
        > > and eye regression in cave fish?
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > James V. Kohl
        > > Medical laboratory scientist
        > > ASCP AMT ASCLS
        > > Independent researcher
        > > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors...
        > > Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
        > > http://dx.doi.org/10.3402/snp.v2i0.17338
        > >
        > > =================================
        > >
        > > Steve,
        > >
        > > Why not just cite the part that states "...and by the aid of fire
        > cooks food otherwise indigestible." In my model, that's the
        > nutrient-dependent part of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled
        > adaptive evolution. Is there a part that tells us how mutations are
        > involved in adaptive evolution?
        > >
        > > Do you realize you just cited the chapter in which Darwin repeatedly
        > mentions his 'conditons of existence' / conditions for life, which we
        > now know are obviously nutrient-dependent and pheromone-controlled?
        > >
        > > • … changed conditions of life are of the highest
        importance
        > in causing variability, both by acting directly on the organisation,
        and
        > indirectly by affecting the reproductive system …
        (author‟s
        > italics)" and "it is generally acknowledged that all organic
        > beings have been formed on two great laws â€" „Unity of
        > Type‟ and the „Conditions of Existence‟
        … in fact
        > the law of the `Conditions of Existence' is the higher law, as
        > it includes, through the inheritance of former variations and
        > adaptations, that of Unity of Type" (Origin, Chapters 5 & 6, 6th
        > edition). -- from Marsh (2011)
        > >
        > > Do you think that most evolutionary theorists are even minimally
        aware
        > of what Darwin really said, or like me do you think they simply bought
        > into the bastardized version of his work because they did not have the
        > intelligence to grasp the complexity or consistency?
        > >
        > > -- James V. Kohl
        > > Medical laboratory scientist
        > > ASCP AMT ASCLS
        > > Independent researcher
        > > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors...
        > > Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
        > > http://dx.doi.org/10.3402/snp.v2i0.17338
        > >
        > > On 5/1/2013 12:23 PM, Steve Corsini wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Is there a Fire-Ape hypothesis?
        > > >
        > > > See: Charles Darwin The Descent of Man [ 1871 ]
        > > >
        > > > Chapter V - On the Development of the Intellectual and Moral
        > Faculties
        > >
        > > =========================================
        > >
        > > On 5/1/2013 1:48 PM, Stan Franklin wrote:
        > > >
        > > > There's a book that makes this point: Wrangham, R. (2009).
        Catching
        > Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human Basic Books.
        > > >
        > > > Stan
        > > OK, let's be clear then. For some reason I have not made that point
        in
        > my model of nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled adaptive
        evolution.
        > > And I think that reason is ignorance of extant literature that most
        > people away from this group have integrated into their opinions about
        > adaptive evolution.
        > >
        >
        > >
        >

      • hibbsa
        Really Jim? You think it s crazy and stupid to think a biological system could evolve to harness the occurence of fire? What about the even crazier idea that a
        Message 3 of 19 , May 5 2:36 PM
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          Really Jim? You think it's crazy and stupid to think a biological system
          could evolve to harness the occurence of fire? What about the even
          crazier idea that a biological system could evolve to harness photons
          from outer space? What would be the nutrient dependent pheromone
          controlled adaptive evolution leading to the harnessing of photons from
          outer space?


          --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, james kohl wrote:
          >
          > From: hibbsa hibbsa@...
          >
          > > JK: The straight and direct answer is that I would never attempt to
          >
          > answer such
          > > a foolish question involving the ability of grasses to genetically
          > harness fire.
          > > However, I might attempt to address a model in which mutations
          somehow
          > enabled
          > > grasses to genetically harness fire. Is there a model for that?
          >
          > So then do you (a) deny that fire was the essential component for why
          > grasses rose to dominance? or (b) accept this is the case but call it
          a
          > lucky intersection of random phenomena?
          > JK: I deny that there is any point whatsoever to such questions in the
          context
          > of evolutionary psychology. Please place the rise of grasses to
          dominance is
          > whatever context you wish to discuss it. Do you want to place it in
          the context
          > of random mutations theory, for example?
          >
          >
          > If (b) then can you explain the distinction between that, and an
          > instance of natural selection involving genetic manifestations such as
          > the ability of grasses to survive fires and simply regrow in their
          wake,
          > given fires actually occured and given grasses rose to dominance as a
          > result, as a randomly assigned selective benefit for those traits?
          > JK: The problem for me is that I have never considered thinking about
          this, must
          > less explaining such distinctions.
          >
          > Or did the traits come about as the result of a non-random process
          involving
          > nutrient gradients or any other mechanism?
          >
          > Or do you have another non-random description for what actually
          occured?
          > JK: I have a description for what you are trying to involve me in:
          it's
          > nonsensical "foolishness." Offer me a theory of how mutations randomly
          caused
          > something to occur if that's what you think might have happened.
          >
          >
          > James V. Kohl
          > Medical laboratory scientist (ASCP)
          > Independent researcher
          > Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors: epigenetic
          influences on the
          > socioaffective nature of evolved behaviors. Socioaffective
          Neuroscience &
          > Psychology, 2: 17338.
          >
          <Snip>
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