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Re: [evol-psych] On truth

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  • merle lester
    the absolute truth is there is a sunrise every morning and a sunset every day... absolute truth and relative truth goes hand in hand.. merle
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 20 8:10 PM
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       the absolute truth is  there is a sunrise every morning and a sunset every day...

      absolute truth and relative truth goes hand in hand.. 
      merle

      On 21/03/2013, at 11:30 AM, Nils K. wrote:





      Dear Edgar, dear All!

      Edgar:
      There is of course absolute truth. Absolute truth is the actual
      state of reality. However I agree that all human truths are just
      approximations of that absolute truth...

      NKO:
      Edgar, your statements above are pure rhetoric. Totally worthless
      as science, and as philosophy of science.

      Firstly, "truth" or "true" are not concepts that belong to science.
      GRT is not "true", QM is not the "truth". etc.

      "absolute truth" is a terrible and meaningless concept, in
      science, in techology, in philosophy, in biology, in sociology,
      in politics, etc. More than that: "absolute truth" is a dangerous
      and even damaging concept. See the political history of the world.
      See the history of the sciences.

      "human truth"? What the Hell is "human truth"?

      "approximations of absolute truth"? What the Hell is that?

      Edgar, you do not follow my strong repeated advice to you that
      you must not be so fast. Think solidly through ideas and thoughts
      before completing and sending your short messages.

      SRT and GRT and QT (QM) and the other physical theories have
      learned us that

      time is relative
      length is relative
      space is relative
      mass is relative
      speed is relative
      axcelleration is relative
      electric current is relative
      magneticism is relative
      etc.

      even the speed of light is relative in GRT
      forces and gravity are relative

      in GRT space are curved (or flat) but that is
      in the theory itself, but if you read, say, Weinberg's
      "Gravitation and Cosmology" you will learn that the actual
      physical space is not necessarily curved: We do not know
      how space is "formed" We only know the theory, we do not know the space!!

      We do NOT know "reality".

      I repeat, Edgar, that both in science and in philosophy, your
      claims above are both worthless and meaningless.

      Das Ding An Sich can we humans know nothing about, not even
      "approximately".

      "We do not know anything" (Feynman and other great minds)

      "We do not understand physics, we are only getting used to it"

      There are dozens of similar quotes by the greatest minds that
      make your message above, Edgar, totally worthless rhetoric.
      Even in mathematics uncertainty is leaking in.

      Read the book "Mathematics - the loss of certainty"

      Math, science, philosophy, yes, but we have not mentioned the
      human factor, which also goes against your message above, Edgar.

      Stephen Hawking: "I've hardly ever known a mathematician who was able
      to reason"

      Above, Edgar was not able to reason.


      Best,
      NKO
























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    • Don Zimmerman
      ... DWZ: Edgar, that could be, but once in a while I entertain the notion that absolute truth may still be in the making and there are some degrees of
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 21 1:37 PM
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        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:

        > There is of course absolute truth. Absolute truth is the actual state of reality. However I agree that all human truths are just approximations of that absolute truth...

        DWZ:
        Edgar, that could be, but once in a while I entertain the notion that "absolute truth" may still be in the making and there are some degrees of freedom as to what it will eventually turn out to be, or perhaps that it never will be finished. Senseless idea? Probably.

        Best regards,

        Donald W. Zimmerman
        Vancouver, BC, Canada
        dwzimm@...
        http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
      • Nils K.
        Dear Merle, dear All Merle Lester: the absolute truth is there is a sunrise every morning and a sunset every day... absolute truth and relative truth goes
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 21 4:06 PM
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          Dear Merle, dear All

          Merle Lester:
          the absolute truth is there is a sunrise every morning and a sunset
          every day...
          absolute truth and relative truth goes hand in hand..

          NKO:

          the absolute truth is there is a sunrise every morning ...

          No, Merle, this is an example or events only, not a philosophy of
          the truth question. If the planet is hit by a hugh enough asteroide,
          then there are no more sunrise. Moreover, the solar system is not
          absolutely stable: a planet can suddenly leave the old orbit,
          and there are no more ordinary sunrise. The rotation of a the Earth
          is slowing down, and ultimately there will be no sunrise. Etc, Etc.

          Again, Merle, truth is not a scientific concept. In other branches
          of human intellectual activities the concept of truth is both
          confusing and dangerous.

          "Absolute truth" is even more meaningless: See your sunrise
          "lesson" above.

          "Relative truth"? What the Hell is "relative truth"? One new level
          of confusion! This concept is meaningless in connection with GRT.
          It is not a concept in philosophy. The concept itself is a
          contradiction.

          Best,
          NKO
        • merle lester
          you have to have a heart to pump blood around your body..you have to have a brain to be alive..look around you there are as many absolutes as there is
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 21 5:00 PM
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             you have to have a heart to pump blood around your body..you have to have a brain to be alive..look around you there are as many absolutes as there is relatives...it's ying and yang..merle




            On 22/03/2013, at 7:37 AM, Don Zimmerman wrote:

            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:

            There is of course absolute truth. Absolute truth is the actual state of reality. However I agree that all human truths are just approximations of that absolute truth...

            DWZ:
            Edgar, that could be, but once in a while I entertain the notion that "absolute truth" may still be in the making and there are some degrees of freedom as to what it will eventually turn out to be, or perhaps that it never will be finished. Senseless idea? Probably.

            Best regards,

            Donald W. Zimmerman
            Vancouver, BC, Canada
            dwzimm@...
            http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899



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          • JVKohl
            Excerpted from below: *RKS: *Thus the pool of mutation has known source and is predictable enough to be used as a clock i.e. the number of mutation in a gene
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 21 5:23 PM
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              Excerpted from below:

              RKS: Thus the pool of mutation has known source and is predictable enough to be used as a clock i.e. the number of mutation in a gene can trace the age back to when two lineages of the same gene began.

              21 March 2013 | GENETICS
              Ancient DNA suggests our ancestors left the continent 30,000 years later than thought

              RKS,

              When it turns out that the clock you've been using does not correctly represent time (e.g., past present, or future), at what point do you consider it to be relatively useless in the context of biological facts like nutrient-dependent pheromone-controlled adaptive evolution?


              JK: I have traced nutrient-dependent amino acid substitutions to species divergence across species from microbes to man (sans mutations). It is clear that pheromones control nutrient-dependent species divergence, because they control reproduction. The most recent example in humans traces the different lineages back approximately 30,000 years.
               
              30,000 years later than thought / different lineages back approximately 30,000 years, get it? The difference is theory vs. facts.


              -- 
              James V. Kohl
              Medical laboratory scientist
              ASCP AMT ASCLS
              Independent researcher
              Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors...
              Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
              http://dx.doi.org/10.3402/snp.v2i0.17338
              



              On 3/20/2013 3:21 AM, Robert Karl Stonjek wrote:
               

              

              RKS:
              The evidence for the distance of mutation leading to genetic variation is so overwhelming it is difficult to know where to start.

              JK: The starting point should lead to adaptive evolution. It does not.
               
              RKS:
              It does.  Variation produces change.  Beneficial changes persist.

              RKS: For instance there are a number mechanisms for the detection and correction of mutation in cells division.  Meioses has even more such mechanisms.

              JK: If mutations are detected and corrected, how do they lead to adaptive evolution?
               
              RKS:
              They are not perfect, mutations still slip through.  But there are many errors to start with.
               

               
              RKS: Thus the pool of mutation has known source and is predictable enough to be used as a clock i.e. the number of mutation in a gene can trace the age back to when two lineages of the same gene began.

              JK: I have traced nutrient-dependent amino acid substitutions to species divergence across species from microbes to man (sans mutations). It is clear that pheromones control nutrient-dependent species divergence, because they control reproduction. The most recent example in humans traces the different lineages back approximately 30,000 years.
               
              RKS:
              With variation there can be no change.  Without mutation there is no source of variation.
               
               
              Robert


            • juan
              please read below. - ... Donald, very well said. Not a senseless idea at all. Truth I think, pertains to an infinite process. There are as you say some
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 22 1:04 PM
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                please read below.

                -
                >
                > > --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
                > >
                > >> There is of course absolute truth. Absolute truth is the actual state of reality. However I agree that all human truths are just approximations of that absolute truth...
                > >
                > > DWZ:
                > > Edgar, that could be, but once in a while I entertain the notion that "absolute truth" may still be in the making and there are some degrees of freedom as to what it will eventually turn out to be, or perhaps that it never will be finished. Senseless idea? Probably.

                Donald, very well said.

                Not a senseless idea at all. "Truth" I think, pertains to an infinite process. There are as you say "some degrees of fredom as to what will eventually turn out to be". And that is where we come in. We partake not only in natural evolution but, if we want, in pourposefull "evolvism": the stance of deliberately propeling the developing of the humane.

                Cheers,
                meridalva
                > >
                > > Best regards,
                > >
                > > Donald W. Zimmerman
                > > Vancouver, BC, Canada
                > > dwzimm@...
                > > http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Julienne
                ... Not so senseless, Don. I think truth may be very frail...what is true today may well evolve as new information peels in tomorrow, and, in retrospect, our
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 22 2:29 PM
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                  At 04:37 PM 3/21/2013, Don Zimmerman wrote:
                  >--- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen
                  ><edgarowen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > There is of course absolute truth. Absolute truth is the actual
                  > state of reality. However I agree that all human truths are just
                  > approximations of that absolute truth...
                  >
                  >DWZ:
                  >Edgar, that could be, but once in a while I entertain the notion
                  >that "absolute truth" may still be in the making and there are some
                  >degrees of freedom as to what it will eventually turn out to be, or
                  >perhaps that it never will be finished. Senseless idea? Probably.

                  Not so senseless, Don. I think "truth" may be very frail...what is
                  true today may well evolve as new information peels in tomorrow, and,
                  in retrospect, our new information can also change our interpretation
                  of the past.


                  Julienne


                  If a cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind, what is the
                  significance of a clean desk? - Laurence J. Peter
                • Julienne
                  Merle, again a message from you has come in without any reponse from you... Computer glitch? Julienne ... If a cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 22 2:36 PM
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                    Merle,

                    again a message from you has come in without any reponse from you...

                    Computer glitch?

                    Julienne


                    At 08:00 PM 3/21/2013, merle lester wrote:




                    On 22/03/2013, at 7:37 AM, Don Zimmerman wrote:

                    --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:

                    There is of course absolute truth. Absolute truth is the actual state of reality. However I agree that all human truths are just approximations of that absolute truth...

                    DWZ:
                    Edgar, that could be, but once in a while I entertain the notion that "absolute truth" may still be in the making and there are some degrees of freedom as to what it will eventually turn out to be, or perhaps that it never will be finished. Senseless idea? Probably.

                    Best regards,

                    Donald W. Zimmerman
                    Vancouver, BC, Canada
                    dwzimm@...
                    http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899

                    If a cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind, what is the significance of a clean desk? - Laurence J. Peter

                  • Don Zimmerman
                    ... DWZ: If the laws of nature are still undergoing evolution by natural selection throughout the multiverse, as Lee Smolin has suggested, then it would seem
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 22 3:16 PM
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                      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "juan" <meridalva@...> wrote:

                      > Donald, very well said.
                      >
                      > Not a senseless idea at all. "Truth" I think, pertains to an infinite process. There are as you say "some degrees of fredom as to what will eventually turn out to be". And that is where we come in. We partake not only in natural evolution but, if we want, in pourposefull "evolvism": the stance of deliberately propeling the developing of the humane.

                      DWZ:
                      If the laws of nature are still undergoing evolution by natural selection throughout the multiverse, as Lee Smolin has suggested, then it would seem inaccurate and premature to declare that "absolute truth" exists.

                      Best regards,

                      Donald W. Zimmerman
                      Vancouver, BC, Canada
                      dwzimm@...
                      http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
                    • Don Zimmerman
                      ... DWZ: Yes! That is very true. Think of something so obvious as the way people viewed the Earth s history before Darwin and after Darwin. Or the way
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 22 3:34 PM
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                        --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Julienne <julienne@...> wrote:

                        > Not so senseless, Don. I think "truth" may be very frail...what is
                        > true today may well evolve as new information peels in tomorrow, and,
                        > in retrospect, our new information can also change our interpretation
                        > of the past.

                        DWZ:
                        Yes! That is very true. Think of something so obvious as the way people viewed the Earth's history before Darwin and after Darwin. Or the way physicists viewed an object in motion before Einstein and after Einstein. But there is more! If I understand the situation correctly, some physicists suggest that, not only does the human grasp of laws of nature change over time, but the laws themselves change over time.

                        I find the idea of an "evolving truth" appealing, if for no other reason that it flies in the face of dogmatism of all kinds. Anyone who believes in some definite creed or belief-system with no possibility of revision would be uncomfortable with any such concept of changeable truth. It sort of encourages us to look forward instead of backward.

                        Best regards,

                        Donald W. Zimmerman
                        Vancouver, BC, Canada
                        dwzimm@...
                        http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
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