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Re: [human-ethology] Newman 2013 Pigeon Study Contradicts Darwinian Natural Selection

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  • Don Zimmerman
    ... DWZ: It is my understanding that mutations arise from a great variety of different causes and that a large proportion of them can reasonably be called
    Message 1 of 45 , Feb 24, 2013
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      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" <hibbsa@...> wrote:

      > Jim/Don - I think in the context of Evolution the words 'mutation' and
      > 'random' increasingly have a much more generic meaning than possibly
      > they did in the past.
      >
      > A mutation = any change in DNA (human caused excepted)
      >
      > Random = with respect to the selective benefit
      >
      > A mutation doesn't have to be a mutation in the common understanding of
      > the word. It can occur as part of an ordered mechanism. There is no
      > rational or logical problem with this. Mutation just means, we don't
      > know what the cause is. In fact, what it really means is that, for the
      > purposes the word is being used, at the level of abstraction it is being
      > used, it doesn't *matter* what the cause is, only that it happens.


      DWZ:
      It is my understanding that mutations arise from a great variety of different causes and that a large proportion of them can reasonably be called "random." For example, consider radiation from space striking DNA. I can't think of anything more random.

      On the other hand, a human being could receive excess radiation because of too many chest X-rays or X-rays in the dentist's office. That might be considered less "random" in the sense that it is predictable and could possibly be avoided by choice. But it has a random component in the sense that various individuals may not be aware of the risks of too much radiation, that toothaches and trips to the dentist may occur randomly, and so on. It is similar for any chemically-induced mutation.

      Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought everybody agreed that mutations drive evolution by natural selection and that the process is regarded as random at the level of populations of organisms. An implication seems to be that, at any given place on the "tree of life," evolution can "go anywhere," (unpredictably from the perspective of an observer in space), within constraints imposed by the structure of organisms up to that point and the structure of the environment.

      Best regards,

      Donald W. Zimmerman
      Vancouver, BC, Canada
      dwzimm@...
      http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
    • JVKohl
      Nils, We must try to avoid accusing Williams of exhibiting child-like behavior. He s likely to throw another tantrum in front of everyone, and embarass us
      Message 45 of 45 , Mar 6, 2013
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        Nils,

        We must try to avoid accusing Williams of exhibiting "child-like" behavior. He's likely to
        throw another tantrum in front of everyone, and embarass us all.

        I hate it when that happens!

        -- 
        James V. Kohl
        Medical laboratory scientist
        ASCP AMT ASCLS
        Independent researcher
        Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors...
        Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
        http://dx.doi.org/10.3402/snp.v2i0.17338
        

         

        On 3/6/2013 2:13 PM, Nils K. wrote:
         

        Dear Clarence, dear All!

        Clarence:
        ... The research is on its way, Don. If anyone else (other than Nils and Kohl; I do not correspond with them ...

        NKO:
        You are probably meaning that research RESULT(S) is on its way, Clarence. (It's difficult or impossible to tell in advance how
        research are going to tell us.)

        The word "correspond" is not synomymous with the word "discuss" or
        "debate". You are probably meaning "discuss", not "correspond".

        However, in a sense, you ARE using the right concept: You are
        pretty unable to discuss/debate our subjects (properly), you are ONLY able to "correspond".

        It's elementary psychology that beaten people back out, and avoid
        more of the same. Moreover it's a sign of child-like behavior.

        Best,
        NKO



        -- 
        James V. Kohl
        Medical laboratory scientist
        ASCP AMT ASCLS
        Independent researcher
        Kohl, J.V. (2012) Human pheromones and food odors...
        Socioaffective Neuroscience & Psychology, 2: 17338.
        http://dx.doi.org/10.3402/snp.v2i0.17338
        
        
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