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Re: [evol-psych] is death a dream or illusion or the end of your life?

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  • Don Zimmerman
    ... DWZ: It may be possible to find paradoxes associated with the concept of an eternal life. I believe Mark Twain said he wouldn t want to go to heaven
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 12, 2013
      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "charles beck" wrote:

      > I don’t know about you all but I am happy with surviving death through my influence during my life on others who survive me, my progeny, and my molecules in the soil where I am buried. I have enduring regard for the ubiquity of the operation of the 2nd Law. All of the above acknowledge its suzerainty.


      DWZ:
      It may be possible to find paradoxes associated with the concept of an eternal life. I believe Mark Twain said he wouldn't want to go to heaven because it would get to be boring sitting around playing a harp all day. I suspect that it would be worse--a human being who lived forever would, after a while have a psychotic breakdown. Think of all the future evolution to come. The constant new input would eventually become too much to handle. After having 10^100^100 or more Facebook friends, I would begin to forget their names.

      Best regards,

      Donald W. Zimmerman
      Vancouver, BC, Canada
      dwzimm@...
      http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
    • Anna
      So, the conclusion is that you cannot die. However, I think it is a folly to believe in survival of our earthly personalities. Anna From: charles beck Sent:
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 12, 2013
        So,  the conclusion is that you cannot die. However, I think it is a folly to believe in survival of our  earthly personalities.   
        Anna
         
        Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 2:19 PM
        Subject: RE: [evol-psych] is death a dream or illusion or the end of your life?
         

        Anna and Don

        I don’t know about you all but I am happy with surviving death through my influence during my life on others who survive me, my progeny, and my molecules in the soil where I am buried. I have enduring regard for the ubiquity of the operation of the 2nd Law. All of the above acknowledge its suzerainty.

        Charles

        (three score years and twenty and counting).

        From: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com [mailto:evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anna
        Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 8:28 PM
        To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [evol-psych] is death a dream or illusion?




        <If all the organisms that have existed possess an afterlife, the realm beyond would soon get crowded, wouldn't it? I even have trouble envisioning how the Law of Conservation of Energy would hold up if such a realm exists>

        Your Occam razor must be dull.  You assume that whatever realm there is it must be limited and finite. If the universe is infinite and limitless, it will accommodate Everything. And it does. Earth with all its present and past life is just a drop in the ocean.

        Conservation of energy does not permit destruction of anything, only for  transformation of form.

        Anna

        Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 6:30 PM

        Subject: Re: [evol-psych] is death a dream or illusion?

         

        --- In mailto:evolutionary-psychology%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Ruquist wrote:

        > Anyway in a Mind/Body reality, you have both
        a physical consciousness and a
        > virtual or Mindspace consciousness, the
        so-called soul. It is my belief
        > that Soul consciousness survives death
        and is also the consciousness you
        > operate from in Out-of-Body experience
        and perhaps lucid dreaming. For
        > example, Kurt Lelend who wrote a book
        "The Unanswered Question" entered the
        > afterlife realm via lucid
        dreaming. It's worth reading. In my opinion life
        > without an afterlife is
        not worth living.

        DWZ:
        Do all organisms have an afterlife or just humans? Evolutionary continuity of species would seem to make it unlikely that the existence of an afterlife appeared suddenly with humans. Some precursor of this extraordinary passage into another realm after death surely must have also existed earlier in evoutionary history.

        On the other hand, that state of affairs would seem to raise some problems. If all the organisms that have existed possess an afterlife, the realm beyond would soon get crowded, wouldn't it? I even have trouble envisioning how the Law of Conservation of Energy would hold up if such a realm exists.

        I have a suspicion that non-existence of an afterlife conforms better to Occam's razor.

        Best regards,

        Donald W. Zimmerman
        Vancouver, BC, Canada
        mailto:dwzimm%40telus.net
        http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899




      • Anna
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 13, 2013
          <In all these attempts to preserve some of the content of the old religious beliefs, it is appropriate to ask the question: How does this proposal fit in with existing scientific theory?>
           
          This has nothing to do with religion. BTW, science can also be religion and often is, in spite of the fact that so many of “revelations” regularly  end up in a garbage can.
          But since you have mentioned it, what scientific theory can you offer proving once and for all that mind dies together with brain? The evidence such as lack of any response from mind after the brain’s death, or inability to observe  anything surviving death is not adequate since most of the universe cannot be observed and does not interact with us. And nobody is arrogant enough to claim that the universe consists of only observable or visible parts.  Nevertheless, according to your reasoning, our universe must extremely small, so small that it can hardly accommodate earthly souls ( as if they would take any space).
           
          Information theory offers more than enough arguments that your mind  cannot die. I suggest you take it into consideration.
          Anna
           
          Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 4:10 PM
          Subject: Re: [evol-psych] is death a dream or illusion?
           

          --- In mailto:evolutionary-psychology%40yahoogroups.com, "Anna" wrote:

          > Your Occam razor must be dull. You assume that
          whatever realm there is it must be limited and finite. If the universe is infinite and limitless, it will accommodate Everything. And it does. Earth with all its present and past life is just a drop in the ocean.
          > Conservation
          of energy does not permit destruction of anything, only for transformation of form.

          DWZ:
          In all these attempts to preserve some of the content of the old religious beliefs, it is appropriate to ask the question: How does this proposal fit in with existing scientific theory?

          Does the mind-substance, or the spirit, or whatever it may be, conform to the Standard Model of particle physics? If not, what research needs to be undertaken to find out more about its properties and how they relate to what we already know? Will findings coming from the Large Hadron Collider be of any help in learning more about it? And so on. Surely if the universe contains a remarkable force or substance unlike the familiar physical ones, future scientists willbe most interested in studying its properties.

          In theoretical physics there certainly is room for a lot still not known today, including speculations about events before the Big Bang, the multiverse, hidden dimensions, infinite spaces, etc. But all these new theoretical ideas are built on what is already established. They are attempts to unify existing science and not to find ways of recovering beliefs from a pre-scientific epoch.

          People who hang on to the past and take the position, "It is a matter of faith and not science," are becoming fewer and fewer with each passing generation.

          Best regards,

          Donald W. Zimmerman
          Vancouver, BC, Canada
          mailto:dwzimm%40telus.net
          http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899

        • Don Zimmerman
          ... DWZ: Almost all neuroscientists, cognitive scientists, cognitive psychologists, researchers in consciousness, etc., today believe the brain is essentially
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 13, 2013
            --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "Anna" wrote:

            > This has nothing to do with religion. BTW, science can also be religion and often is, in spite of the fact that so many of “revelations” regularly end up in a garbage can.
            > But since you have mentioned it, what scientific theory can you offer proving once and for all that mind dies together with brain? The evidence such as lack of any response from mind after the brain’s death, or inability to observe anything surviving death is not adequate since most of the universe cannot be observed and does not interact with us. And nobody is arrogant enough to claim that the universe consists of only observable or visible parts. Nevertheless, according to your reasoning, our universe must extremely small, so small that it can hardly accommodate earthly souls ( as if they would take any space).
            >
            > Information theory offers more than enough arguments that your mind cannot die. I suggest you take it into consideration.


            DWZ:
            Almost all neuroscientists, cognitive scientists, cognitive psychologists, researchers in consciousness, etc., today believe the brain is essentially related to the phenomena called "mind" and that the latter disappear when death occurs and the brain no longer functions. Therefore, it seems to me that the notion of an eternal spirit, or mind-stuff that survives after death, demands very convincing hard evidence that can be related to what is already known in the above disciplines.

            I would suggest that what is really needed is more research that relates the mind-stuff, or rather the mind-function, that is present during life to the events in the external environment that are esssential for its functioning -- its relation to language, society, and culture. Our present conceptions of mind are still tied up with religious notions of olden days, and we still think of mind as somehow "nothing more" than the functioning of the brain, and that point of view has to end before substantial progress can occur.

            Best regards,

            Donald W. Zimmerman
            Vancouver, BC, Canada
            dwzimm@...
            http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899
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