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Re: [evol-psych] backlash...

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  • Brad
    Don and Hibbsa; Hibbsa writes. ... I could just as easily say that multiculturalism is the cause of the dsytopic economic system. tructural level revolutions
    Message 1 of 46 , Feb 7, 2013
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      Don and Hibbsa; Hibbsa writes.
      > "But the problems that are building up are much wider than those from
      > multiculturalism. The economic system isn't working in anyhing like the
      > direction of delivering the much hoped for and promised long term
      > regularities. It isn't going to get any better either, there are no
      > corners up ahead for things to turn."


      I could just as easily say that multiculturalism is the cause of the dsytopic economic system.

      "tructural level revolutions can deliver the apparently impossible. The
      > 'West' was impossible before someone did it. A system that is more
      > libertarian than the wildest wet dream of a libtertarian. More rooted
      > into and drawing energy from the concepts of free markets than even
      > those silly models they sometimes create in software, that never have
      > existed in reality. More communistic and for the people than any 20th
      > century experiment. More equality, opportunity and fair sharing than
      > anyone's wildest dreams
      ."

      How can you compare libertarian and communistic is beyond me. That is a wild dream indeed.
      Holland has the right idea..



      Brad



      "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."


      -- George Orwell

      From: Don Zimmerman <dwzimm@...>
      To: evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2013 10:34 PM
      Subject: Re: [evol-psych] backlash...

       
      --- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, "hibbsa" wrote:

      > Up to 3 or so years ago I had always been positive about
      > multiculturalism, and now I've come a full circle to being positive
      > about it once again. It's really important to do everything possible to
      > make a success of it. Not just survive but thrive. If the West could
      > collectively accomplish that, it would change the world forever.
      >
      > But the problems that are building up are much wider than those from
      > multiculturalism. The economic system isn't working in anyhing like the
      > direction of delivering the much hoped for and promised long term
      > regularities. It isn't going to get any better either, there are no
      > corners up ahead for things to turn.
      >
      > And no good ideas. Nothing new. The more imbalanced and dysfunctional it
      > gets, the more the same old ideas get revised and revised into ever more
      > radicalized forms. It's not working because we're not free market
      > enough! It's not working because the people are seen as economic units
      > to be used bonedry or churned out onto the rubbish heap as convenient!
      > Tired ideas, increasingly cut down their bare bones.
      >
      > But the original economic miracle of the West was delivered by ideas
      > much richer and inspired than mere economics and idelogy. At the
      > structural level. Western structures, checks and balances, and so on, is
      > what distinguished itself. Even people who hate the West and see it as
      > hypocritical about its values and exploitive....still on some other
      > level expect a higher standard all the same. It isn't because of the
      > values or the talk talk...it's because of the structures..the due
      > process that is built in.
      >
      > This is how the next revolution will happen too... if any creative
      > geniuses are left to dream it up. Different - new - arrangements at the
      > structural level, diving things in new ways, forcing some things to
      > converge while others diverge, releasing new energy, driving
      > productivity in new ways, inately resisting the tendency of wealth and
      > power to accumulate.
      >
      > Structural level revolutions can deliver the apparently impossible. The
      > 'West' was impossible before someone did it. A system that is more
      > libertarian than the wildest wet dream of a libtertarian. More rooted
      > into and drawing energy from the concepts of free markets than even
      > those silly models they sometimes create in software, that never have
      > existed in reality. More communistic and for the people than any 20th
      > century experiment. More equality, opportunity and fair sharing than
      > anyone's wildest dreams.
      >
      > It could be possible even it does not seem it, if the structuring of
      > society ordered and separated things so as to make it possible. One
      > vague idea would be if the core of the economic model was in terms of
      > manufacturing objects as duplicate to the same standard each time. Yes,
      > just like they do now, but at a higher structural level. Duplicating
      > communities...everything from the personality types, to the skill sets
      > to the necessary sets of skills and experiences. Duplicating community
      > level factories...not just at the production line, but the ownership
      > itelf, and the local market to go along with it.
      >
      > Twinning or pairing of towns where the people are different ethnicities,
      > duplicating across the successful components. Dealing with gang culture
      > in one place by splitting them up and instead of prison sending them to
      > live in different communities - succesful ones, maybe ethnically
      > different. Just one problem kid per community could be managed. Some of
      > them would eventually be changed and would become advocates and
      > knowledge carriers into other communities.
      >
      > It's possible. It's possible if successful communities are used as
      > models, in ways that respect the people and ways of the community.
      > Multiculturalism can be a sucess if the well functioning desirable parts
      > are steadily infect the dysfunctional parts. And fail if it goes the
      > other way I guess.

      DWZ:
      That is a very good analysis. It seems to me unlikely that any of the economic and political systems that are popular in the world today are going to survive into the distant future, at least not in the form that they exist at present. It is especially valuable to be open to other forms of organization of human society, as well as to recognize that there is some good in existing systems and that none are all bad. As technology, communication, and social interaction advance in the future, extensive change is inevitable, but it will be built upon what we have now and not just drop out of the sky.

      Best regards,

      Donald W. Zimmerman
      Vancouver, BC, Canada
      dwzimm@...
      http://www3.telus.net/public/a7a82899



    • Julienne
      ... Don, I talk to many of these people every day in my counseling practice. There is a real struggle going on now between the old guard and this marrying
      Message 46 of 46 , Feb 11, 2013
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        At 12:18 PM 2/11/2013, Don Zimmerman wrote:
        >--- In evolutionary-psychology@yahoogroups.com, Julienne wrote:
        >
        > > Yes, all good ideas. {))
        > >
        > > And then, of course, there's love. Once people fall in love, the
        > > ethno/cultural rules tend to dissolve.
        >
        >
        >DWZ:
        >Yes indeed. In various countries, the people in power support
        >immigration policy as a means of obtaining cheap labor when needed.
        >But they would prefer the immigrants to stay to themselves in
        >ghettos while not working. They do not want outsiders falling in
        >love with and marrying the local purebred youth and certainly not
        >getting into politics and voting in elections.

        Don,

        I talk to many of these people every day in my counseling practice.
        There is a real struggle going on now between the old guard and this
        marrying generation. Some are rebelling against the parental
        "arranged" marriages. Others go into the arranged marriage, and when
        it fails, they rebel against a second arranged marriage. Many of the
        people speak with are born in India, Pakistan, Nigeria. many are now
        living in England and Trinidad. There isn't as much local ghetto life
        any more - at least in the above countries.


        Julienne





        We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend
        to be. Kurt Vonnegut
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